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Fast Uncompromising Discussions.Re: Predestination, Election, And The Sovereignty Of God
http://overcomersonline.com/FUDforum2/index.php?t=rview&goto=13490&th=786#msg_13490
Mark L2020-06-13T13:08:54-00:00Re: Predestination, Election, And The Sovereignty Of God
http://overcomersonline.com/FUDforum2/index.php?t=rview&goto=13489&th=786#msg_13489
It's the best job of explaining Molinism that I've heard.
If you get an hour or so of free time I think that you'll come away with a much better understanding than my DVD explanation (above) could ever provide.
I know this is an old thread but the subject is timeless (pun intended!).
Blessings,
William
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWly0PlaTMI]]>william2020-06-13T07:35:27-00:00Re: Predestination, Election, And The Sovereignty Of God
http://overcomersonline.com/FUDforum2/index.php?t=rview&goto=13093&th=786#msg_13093
I checked the date when this post was first posted and it showed 2011, I assume all these dates are accurate, just wanted to know when someone started the post. Then I noticed the first time someone replied was three years later. The post after that was three years later with a total of three replies. Now here I was with a reply three years later in 2020. Interesting, since the topic is dealing with the Lords Sovereignty.
Mark wrote: Can you imagine the kind of intelligence that can do that in advance through all of our human history. Not only ours but all of eternity with all the myriad personalities and realms there. I think that God is so big that he can't do anything but foreordain.
I agree, God is beyond our comprehension as created beings. When I've tried to think back at times of God in Eternity my mind draws a blank, its almost impossible to imagine a God who always was, Looking forward to the future I come to the same wall. If I think of eternity in years, a million, billion, trillion, gazillion, years from now, I still see eternity making this "time factor", as mere seconds.
God who knows millions of human beings and knows the amount of hairs on their heads, knows all their thoughts, everything about them, nothing is hidden, it makes me wonder if the Lord is even beyond what we call intelligence.
I watched the video clip of Betty Maltz's glimpse in eternity, having read the book years ago. She said the Lord God was on His throne, and pure energy was going out from Him sustaining everything everywhere including our world and universe.
In Proverbs 3:7-8 it says; Do not be wise in your own eyes; Fear the Lord and depart from evil. It will be health to your flesh, and strength to your bones.
In other words I know I can't get my mind in this, so I see where God's Word is His revelation so we can clearly rest in it. I love this subject because it again confirms, How Great is our God, He chose us before the foundation of the world, He gives all of us His Mercy and Grace. If the Lord had not opened our eyes we would of been lost for all Eternity without Him.
The world uses the term "catch 22", maybe everybody here has experienced these moments in time. I think that's God's sovereignty in motion. Maybe those DVD's William mentioned are being changed out. Who knows maybe someone will reply to this in three years.
In Him,
Gary
]]>Gary2020-01-12T15:16:33-00:00Re: BIG ERRORS: The Bride.
http://overcomersonline.com/FUDforum2/index.php?t=rview&goto=13058&th=1241#msg_13058
Marilyn Crow wrote on Tue, 31 December 2019 03:23
I have noticed in this topic that if someone does not agree then they will try and put down, accuse the other person, or flood the topic with lots of their own comments and not address the topic. It tells me that some people are threatened by certain scriptures.
Marilyn.
Now that is funny!
Since I don't know anyone else you could be referring to but to me in this topic:
1) I have completely answered all of your propositions.
2) My 'put downs' are limited to actually showing that you've not proven ANY of your propositions.
3) My 'accusations' are that you have not provided ANY basis for your propositions.
4) My 'flood of comments' are almost exclusively directed to the topic and fortified with ample scripture references.
5) As to not addressing the 'topic'? How can you make such a statement when all I've done is address the topic???
6) You seem to be in a projecting-mode when you say that "some people are threatened by certain scriptures". Scripture is not something that should ever be feared, in fact, faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God! It's my food, my nourishment!
The only thing that I haven't answered is your last appeal (the "they" "we" "better" argument) which, to anyone who reads the book of Hebrews knows full well that the central point of the whole book is that we have better promises, better covenant, better High Priest, better Sacrifice, etc..
The "weak and beggarly elements"(Gal4:9) of the old covenant dim in comparison to the new covenant!
Those OT saints are in for a blessing for sure!
My real surprise was that you didn't say that the verse you quoted was to the "Hebrews", (you know, those "Israelites") and not to the "body of Christ". That would have been more typical of your style of interpretation, but I understand, you couldn't get away with it here because it would have threatened the very point you were making!!!
Lest I be accused of not being specific, let me quote you:
Quote:
Hi William,
Let`s look a bit closer.
`And all of these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, God having provided SOMETHING BETTER for US, that THEY should not be made perfect apart from US.` (Heb. 11: 39 & 40)
Notice the `THEY and US.` The THEY are the Old Testament saints and the US are the Body of Christ.
`SOMETHING BETTER` relates to a greater dominion. (Greek - kreitton & kratos)
`MADE PERFECT,` relates to being complete, to consummate.
Thus we see that the OT saints will be made complete in the city after the Body of Christ will be with Christ on His throne, the greater dominion.
Okay, 'let's look a bit closer'.
The verse is not a problem if it is simply read in the context of the book so I won't try to give an opinion, it really needs no interpretation.
It does not have anything to do with "dominion" except in your own mind. You are acting like you've already made a case for your proposition when you have yet to present any evidence for it--beyond repeating it over and over.)
Here are the places the word for "better" (grk.κρείττων) is used in the book of Hebrews:
Hebrews 1:4: Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
Hebrews 6:9: But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
Hebrews 7:7: And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better.
Hebrews 7:19: For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.
Hebrews 7:22: By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
Hebrews 8:6: But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Hebrews 9:23: It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Hebrews 10:34: For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.
Hebrews 11:16: But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
Hebrews 11:35: Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:
Hebrews 11:40: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
Hebrews 12:24: And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
How do you get the idea of "Dominion" from these verses? Does the writer simply change the way he/she is using the word, without warning, in verse 40?
Remember, you can't use a proposition that you haven't made a case for, and then use it to "prove" that this usage "relates to greater dominion".
2) Your second point is the words translated "MADE PERFECT", you say this "relates to being complete, to consummate."
I see no real problem here because the greek words "τελειόω" or "teleióō" (tel-i-o'-o; from G5046;) means: to complete, i.e. (literally) accomplish, or (figuratively) consummate (in character):--consecrate, finish, fulfil, make) perfect. But again, no idea of dominion here, yet you continue...
3) Your third point: "Thus we see that the OT saints will be made complete in the city after the Body of Christ will be with Christ on His throne, the greater dominion."
No, we don't "see" something that you see (again, you are using an unproved proposition, that you have set out to make but so far have come up short). Where is the separation between us (body of Christ), the OT saints, and the "we" of Heb11:40? Where is this "greater dominion"? The text does not support what you are contending. Why are you continually adding your gloss to the scripture? That is a dangerous thing.
Is it possible for you to quote us a passage without your editorial guidance? We know how to read scripture. You seem incapable of setting forth your doctrine without your own glosses added. That is a shame.
Anyone who teaches SOUND Biblical doctrine ought to be able to do it using scripture itself. Teaching unsound doctrine... now that's impossible without gloss.
William
]]>william2019-12-31T11:34:31-00:00Re: BIG ERRORS: The Bride.
http://overcomersonline.com/FUDforum2/index.php?t=rview&goto=13057&th=1241#msg_13057
`Hammering` gives the picture of someone continually hitting people over the head with their ideas.
Thank you for your apology. Much appreciated.
regards, Marilyn.]]>Marilyn Crow2019-12-31T04:11:03-00:00Re: BIG ERRORS: The Bride.
http://overcomersonline.com/FUDforum2/index.php?t=rview&goto=13056&th=1241#msg_13056
I apologize for using the word " hammering " and that I offended you with it.
Sorry]]>james2019-12-31T03:50:47-00:00Re: BIG ERRORS: The Bride.
http://overcomersonline.com/FUDforum2/index.php?t=rview&goto=13055&th=1241#msg_13055
You have accused me of `hammering,` without any proof, no examples and then bow out. Is that Christian? You need to give examples so that I and others can learn what you are saying.
Otherwise there needs to be an apology for the accusation.
I have noticed in this topic that if someone does not agree then they will try and put down, accuse the other person, or flood the topic with lots of their own comments and not address the topic. It tells me that some people are threatened by certain scriptures.
Marilyn.]]>Marilyn Crow2019-12-31T03:23:36-00:00Re: BIG ERRORS: The Bride.
http://overcomersonline.com/FUDforum2/index.php?t=rview&goto=13054&th=1241#msg_13054
We know people also wrest scriptures to back up their beliefs as well as just plain misinterpreted what is being presented by God for our instruction. We can say we are ALL sent forth with a message, or are delegates for Christ...and that's true. But the Biblical pattern and example of an apostle ( an we've been over this before on this forum) is the commissioned person had a direct encounter with Jesus, witnessed Him in person and was anointed by Jesus for specific purposes.
Yes, we could say there were others in scripture called apostles but is that the proper translation of the original writings? I'm not digging out my Greek NT cause it wouldn't help me, I've forgotten everything I learned in Greek class 40 years ago.
Besides, if there are Apostles today my believing or not won't change the fact. Truth is truth whether anyone believes it or not.
Anyway, I'll bow out because this could go on forever, and I'm not interested enough to spent the time on it.
Hope I didn't offend you; I'm not offended, just not interested in something I know I will never convince you differently nor you me.]]>james2019-12-31T01:09:58-00:00Re: BIG ERRORS: The Bride.
http://overcomersonline.com/FUDforum2/index.php?t=rview&goto=13053&th=1241#msg_13053
james wrote on Mon, 30 December 2019 23:27
Marilyn Crow wrote on Mon, 30 December 2019 23:03
Now why I have brought this topic up is that it is not doctrinally correct, only based on an exhortation, and something said by Paul specifically to his disciples. Also it leads to an error in where we believe we will go to be with the Lord. Then, and most importantly it leads to not making the Lord pre-eminent over all.
I`m am not concerned about my rulership etc but that the Lord be pre-eminent in all things, as the Father has purposed before time.
Hope that is a more helpful explanation.
regards, Marilyn.
Help me connect the dots Marilyn, I'm assuming you're concerned about The Lord Jesus not being "pre-eminent over all" in the life of a Christian, right? Because we know from scripture that He IS...preeminent over all Col. 1:15-18
Maybe you think believers zeal for Christ will wane if we don't have the same interpretation of future events?
Hi James,
The Lord is pre-eminent over all as we know, and I`m sure Christians believe that. However because there has been false teaching regarding our inheritance then that actually presents the Lord in a lower rulership position.
The Holy Spirit has been sent to lead us into all truth concerning the Lord. Thus if I believe I see an error especially in relation to the Lordship of Christ, then it is my responsibility to bring up that discussion.
Marilyn.
]]>Marilyn Crow2019-12-30T23:44:20-00:00Re: BIG ERRORS: The Bride.
http://overcomersonline.com/FUDforum2/index.php?t=rview&goto=13052&th=1241#msg_13052
james wrote on Mon, 30 December 2019 21:34
I respectfully disagree that there are apostles today (not even your dear uncle) so with that position, I can't and won't receive teachings that are based from that belief.
Hi James,
Any of us can just say, `I don`t believe such and such,` but it takes effort and study as God`s word says to discuss with each other.
`Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. (2 Tim. 2: 15)
And I have not seen you do that. I presented what God`s word says and you never commented. Always easy to hide behind emotive words. Here are the texts again -
`When He ascended on high......He gave apostles....` (Eph. 4: 8 & 11) Note the `s` plural.
`Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy,..... Nor did WE seek glory from men, either from you or from others, when WE might have made demands as APOSTLES of Christ.`(1 Thess. 1 & 2 Thess. 2: 6)
Quite plain from God word.
Marilyn.
BTW I do not believe that all who call themselves `apostles` are truly so. Only the Lord knows who are His, I believe.
]]>Marilyn Crow2019-12-30T23:37:06-00:00Re: BIG ERRORS: The Bride.
http://overcomersonline.com/FUDforum2/index.php?t=rview&goto=13051&th=1241#msg_13051
Marilyn Crow wrote on Mon, 30 December 2019 23:03
Now why I have brought this topic up is that it is not doctrinally correct, only based on an exhortation, and something said by Paul specifically to his disciples. Also it leads to an error in where we believe we will go to be with the Lord. Then, and most importantly it leads to not making the Lord pre-eminent over all.
I`m am not concerned about my rulership etc but that the Lord be pre-eminent in all things, as the Father has purposed before time.
Hope that is a more helpful explanation.
regards, Marilyn.
Help me connect the dots Marilyn, I'm assuming you're concerned about The Lord Jesus not being "pre-eminent over all" in the life of a Christian, right? Because we know from scripture that He IS...preeminent over all Col. 1:15-18
Maybe you think believers zeal for Christ will wane if we don't have the same interpretation of future events?
]]>james2019-12-30T23:27:51-00:00Re: BIG ERRORS: The Bride.
http://overcomersonline.com/FUDforum2/index.php?t=rview&goto=13050&th=1241#msg_13050
`Hammering!` Isn`t this forum open to discussion? And I am just discussing as others do here. Just because I have been taught differently, & you believe you have the truth, then doesn`t it behove those who have the truth to speak the truth graciously and patiently? When people have to try and put others down it means they are threatened.
Now why I have brought this topic up is that it is not doctrinally correct, only based on an exhortation, and something said by Paul specifically to his disciples. Also it leads to an error in where we believe we will go to be with the Lord. Then, and most importantly it leads to not making the Lord pre-eminent over all.
Think about it, God`s word tells us that the Lord is pre-eminent, and that we His Body will rule and reign with Him on His throne. So if you believe we have been promised the city, then that COMES DOWN OUT OF HEAVEN FROM GOD. And thus the Lord`s throne, in that scenario is placed below the angelic realm, below where even Lucifer ruled, below God.
God has written in His word concerning His Son and that He will rule from the highest realm. We know that no one was found worthy for such an esteemed high rulership, none but the Lord Jesus Christ. And that is truly worth speaking about.
I`m am not concerned about my rulership etc but that the Lord be pre-eminent in all things, as the Father has purposed before time.
Hope that is a more helpful explanation.
regards, Marilyn.
]]>Marilyn Crow2019-12-30T23:03:14-00:00Re: BIG ERRORS: The Bride.
http://overcomersonline.com/FUDforum2/index.php?t=rview&goto=13049&th=1241#msg_13049
When you said you were correcting Errors, couldn't you have just said you thought there was a difference between the bride and the body of Christ? Maybe there is, I think everyone on this forum knows we're not Israel and that we are the Body of Christ. So is it your opinion that our theology is flawed with errors? I'm sure I don't have full revelation of everything God's Word lays out (though after 40 years I should be further along than I am, but that's on me) but I do believe The Holy Spirit gives discernment keeping me from errors, heresy, false doctrines, and false shepherds. I'm not claiming never to have been deceived or believed something someone misinterpreted in scripture, but God, in His grace and mercy has shown me eventually.
So I am just wondering what's the point you're seeking to get over? I respectfully disagree that there are apostles today (not even your dear uncle) so with that position, I can't and won't receive teachings that are based from that belief.
So if someday you're in a place in God's kingdom of dominion over me, then hallelujah, I really don't mind... just remember that what ever I said to you in this life I did so in love and kindness with humility. I love you as a sister in Christ.🙏
]]>james2019-12-30T21:34:20-00:00Re: BIG ERRORS: The Bride.
http://overcomersonline.com/FUDforum2/index.php?t=rview&goto=13043&th=1241#msg_13043
Let`s look a bit closer.
`And all of these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, God having provided SOMETHING BETTER for US, that THEY should not be made perfect apart from US.` (Heb. 11: 39 & 40)
Notice the `THEY and US.` The THEY are the Old Testament saints and the US are the Body of Christ.
`SOMETHING BETTER` relates to a greater dominion. (Greek - kreitton & kratos)
`MADE PERFECT,` relates to being complete, to consummate.
Thus we see that the OT saints will be made complete in the city after the Body of Christ will be with Christ on His throne, the greater dominion.
Marilyn.
]]>Marilyn Crow2019-12-29T23:30:56-00:00Re: BIG ERRORS: The Bride.
http://overcomersonline.com/FUDforum2/index.php?t=rview&goto=13020&th=1241#msg_13020
Marilyn Crow wrote on Sat, 21 December 2019 05:19
Hi William,
Actually we know that the New Jerusalem is referred to AS THE BRIDE.
`And I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth has passed away. Also there was no sea. Then I, John, saw the holy city, new Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.` (Rev. 21: 1 & 2)
And God`s word tells us who will be in that city.
`But now they, (Old Testament saints) desired a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.` (Heb. 11: 16)
Marilyn.
You are right about the Lord showing us who will be in that city:
Hebrews 11:8: By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
Hebrews 11:9: By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
****Little detour here:****
Jesus makes this interesting statement to the Jews: Matthew 3:9: And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
Later, Jesus says, after the Centurion (Gentile, btw) exhibits an extraordinary faith: Matthew 8:10: When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
And He continues with: Matthew 8:11: And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
Then Paul gives us that wonderful news that we gentiles are heirs of the same promise! Romans 4:16: Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,... Romans 4:24: But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; (For context I might add that Paul is speaking to the Roman/Gentile Church.)
Next, just so there could be no mistaking his meaning, he writes this to the Galatians (Gentiles): Galatians 3:7-9: Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. 3:8: And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. 3:9: So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
I'll finish up the detour with the end of Gal. 3 where Paul says: Galatians 3:28: There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. Galatians 3:29: And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
****End of detour****
Now that we know a little something about the who and whom, we can continue with the rest of the Hebrew passage you brought up:
Hebrews 11:10: For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
Hebrews 11:11: Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
Hebrews 11:12: Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
Hebrews 11:13: These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Hebrews 11:14: For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
Hebrews 11:15: And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
Now, with some biblical knowledge under our belts we return to your presentation... btw, here is the way you quoted the passage complete with your parenthetical gloss:Quote:
And God`s word tells us who will be in that city. '[i]But now they, (Old Testament saints) desired a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.' (Heb. 11: 16)
But, as I've been saying over and over, you don't need to gloss the word of God, the actual words are enough. (Or if you must, leave off your commentary/implication that Israel only is included... say "the OT saints and all of us who name the name of Christ are looking for this city".)
Hebrews 11:16: But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
Now tell me, is this city only for the OT saints, or are we to be included as well?
You decide:
Hebrews 11:39: And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Hebrews 11:40: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
Hebrews 12--the whole chapter could be quoted here (the cloud of witness, etc)
And finally:
Hebrews 13:14: For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.
The OT saints, the Hebrews, those children of Abraham, and the children of Abraham by faith, we all are looking for that city!
Blessings,
William]]>william2019-12-25T09:50:56-00:00Re: BIG ERRORS: The Bride.
http://overcomersonline.com/FUDforum2/index.php?t=rview&goto=13012&th=1241#msg_13012
Marilyn Crow wrote on Sun, 22 December 2019 04:48
Hi William,
Thank you for drawing my attention to George Peters` book. I looked up on line and got a download of a PDF from a site that gave some good information. (library.dts.edu) I see that Peters premillennial views were in conflict with the majority of his denomination, (Lutheran). This prevented him from receiving much recognition from his colleagues and lived in relative obscurity. Wittenberg College, however awarded him an honorary Doctor of Divinity degree in 1907.
Again we see that those who hold to the truth often have to suffer somewhat for their beliefs. We are blessed to receive the truths passed on to us all by such godly men and women.
I would also like to thank you William for the opportunity to post what I believe on your forum. I do like a healthy robust discussion, for truth needs to be vigorously discussed and presented. I know we both, as with others seek to -
`Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.` (2 Tim. 2: 15)
As you can see I do not mind opposing views for we are all winners when the truth prevails, and I`m sure over time we all learn from each other, especially what godly men and women have taught us many years ago.
Ay, there's the rub... I don't hold to any doctrine that was taught no matter how respected the individual, no matter how revered the author, unless God's Word is at it's foundation and any edifice/creed/doctrine or teaching built on that foundation is an actual affirmation of His Word.
That same book (so far so good) has this quote: "...for God holds us only responsible for the plain, naked, grammatical sense of the Word, and not for recondite, hidden senses that the ingenuity or imagination of man may concoct."
Here is another: "Allowing a development of doctrine in the Bible itself (i.e. given in respective dispensations, and by different writers), made under the auspices of the Spirit, the same, by the principle of interpretation adopted (prop.4) shows, by its completeness and manner of presentation, that the Bible is designed to be a book for the people, for all men, both learned and unlearned. It is addressd to the masses, to the ignorant, to all classes, and, therefore, is not merely designed for the educated. It assumes upon the very face of it, that its important doctrines can be easily comprehended, and that to realize their force and value it is unnecessary to make additions or alternations. It takes it for granted that it contains all that is requisite for us to know concerning the kingdom, and that every person can obtain this knowledge by its perusal and study. It assumes, that it is correct in its claim of being an infallible guide (Ps 119:105, 2Pet.1:19, Gal. 1:8, Isa 8:20, 2Tim3:17, etc.), as endorsed by the early Christians, Reformers, etc., in the things pertaining to God and the everlasting happiness of man. It distinctly teaches that without a due acceptance of its doctrines, we are regarded by the Almighty as those, however learned in other respects, who lack understanding. It urges upon us, in view of its Divine origin, purity, veracity, power, duration, etc., the obligation that we are under to know God's Word. It professes to enlighten every one who receives it respecting God and our personal relationship to Him, the Messiah and our need of Him, the kingdom and the manner in which to gain it, the duties pertaining to God and man, the future destiny of ourselves and the world, etc., and that to obtain this enlightenment we do not absolutely require, valuable as they may be in many respects, those cumbersome systems of interpretation, those diversified and ponderous exegetical commentaries, etc., which are given as helps to the student."
You have stated again and again that "I was taught this" or "this is what I was taught" (my paraphrase), frankly I don't care about what you were taught. I'm willing to lay down everything I was taught if the scripture doesn't teach it. Paul can say to Timothy: [2Ti 1:13 KJV] 13 Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. We can't say that... our teachers, however much we respect them, don't have the benefit of having their word recorded in the scripture of truth.
[Isa 8:20 KJV] 20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, [it is] because [there is] no light in them.
These are the principles that I was taught (good sound teaching from an excellent teacher!) but note that the things that were taught weren't man's carefully crafted words but truths derived from the sound doctrine of the Bible.
Do we really think that God (the Masterful architect of the world, the One who desires us to know Him and fellowship with Him) cannot express Himself in a manner that even the children among us can understand?
If we don't start with that premise we'll be easily swayed by men who, however sincere, have been swayed themselves.
Paul says: (and includes himself) [Gal 1:8 KJV] 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
God has preserved those words and many more (the Bible) so that we will not be led astray.
William
]]>william2019-12-22T06:25:11-00:00Re: BIG ERRORS: The Bride.
http://overcomersonline.com/FUDforum2/index.php?t=rview&goto=13011&th=1241#msg_13011
`To Him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.` (Rev. 3: 21)
Obvious I`m not interested (as you are not too) in who is on one side or the other, as if the Lord is sitting on a `seat.` And as you say you have not heard any teaching specifically on this topic, then may we approach it from another angle where we all can contribute, as I know many of those here are well versed in God`s word.
I think the topic could be - The Pre-eminence of Christ. (Col. 1: 18)
And I think I need to start another thread for that. I will go and prepare some notes and hope that some others will contribute. What better than to share and discuss of Christ, His character, His offices and His purposes.
regards, Marilyn.
]]>Marilyn Crow2019-12-22T04:52:08-00:00Re: BIG ERRORS: The Bride.
http://overcomersonline.com/FUDforum2/index.php?t=rview&goto=13010&th=1241#msg_13010
` Then He said to them, "O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! Ought not the Christ to have suffered these things and to enter into His glory?" And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself.` (Luke 24: 25 - 27)
]]>Marilyn Crow2019-12-22T04:50:10-00:00Re: BIG ERRORS: The Bride.
http://overcomersonline.com/FUDforum2/index.php?t=rview&goto=13009&th=1241#msg_13009
Thank you for drawing my attention to George Peters` book. I looked up on line and got a download of a PDF from a site that gave some good information. (library.dts.edu) I see that Peters premillennial views were in conflict with the majority of his denomination, (Lutheran). This prevented him from receiving much recognition from his colleagues and lived in relative obscurity. Wittenberg College, however awarded him an honorary Doctor of Divinity degree in 1907.
Again we see that those who hold to the truth often have to suffer somewhat for their beliefs. We are blessed to receive the truths passed on to us all by such godly men and women.
I would also like to thank you William for the opportunity to post what I believe on your forum. I do like a healthy robust discussion, for truth needs to be vigorously discussed and presented. I know we both, as with others seek to -
`Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.` (2 Tim. 2: 15)
As you can see I do not mind opposing views for we are all winners when the truth prevails, and I`m sure over time we all learn from each other, especially what godly men and women have taught us many years ago.
]]>Marilyn Crow2019-12-22T04:48:46-00:00Re: BIG ERRORS: The Bride.
http://overcomersonline.com/FUDforum2/index.php?t=rview&goto=13008&th=1241#msg_13008
Marilyn Crow wrote on Sat, 21 December 2019 22:22
Hi William,
Yes seriously. I was taught differently, so am looking to you to present what you have been taught.
And what a great scripture to show our inheritance in Christ - 1 Cor. 3: 22 - 23.
So where do you see we will be with the Lord on His throne?
`To Him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.` (Rev. 3: 21)
Marilyn.
Well, I can't remember ever being taught about the inheritance. I'm sure I picked up what I know over time from different people but I don't ever remember someone saying "okay, today we are going to learn about our future inheritance in Christ". I did hear messages geared toward what we have in Christ right now, i.e. our present inheritance.
I guess it was touched on in Biblical Theology but it was probably more in the context of a timeline of the end-times. (Pre-trib, pre-millennial, millennial-reign, eternal state.)
I'm sure you remember when the Sons of Zebedee came to Jesus and asked Him about sitting one on the right and the other on His left hand in glory and Jesus responded to them saying: "Ye know not what ye ask..." and then went on to say that the request wasn't His to give anyway... later the other disciples ribbed James and John and Jesus interrupted them with a lesson on Gentile lordship vs true greatness. I kinda took that as a area that wasn't to dominate my thinking. Important? yes, because the Bible has things to say about it, but not so important that I should spend a lot of time with it. Later I realized that the NT writers didn't spend too much time on it either, not that it was avoided, because over and over our inheritance, in and with Christ, is mentioned, but there wasn't a lot of exact detail concerning what it would entail. Now that's just me, and I wouldn't begrudge anyone who chose to spend a lot of time with the subject.
In fact, since you've brought up the subject, I've found a book, actually a three volume set (that a lot of people seem to believe is the best book on the subject of the Kingdom--idunno, but I'll find out!) that spends a whopping 2189 pages on the subject of the kingdom!
Suspicious person that I am, I can't recommend it until I've read it (I'm only on page 120) but so far, if his interpretive methodology stays within the realm he's already set forth, it should be a good read.
You may already have it, or have heard of it.
It's called The Theocratic Kingdom of Our Lord Jesusby George Nathaniel Henry Peters
It was written back in the 1880's, I think. You can find it free online in various places.
Again, I'm not in a position to critique it yet so don't think that it represents my views. I will say that the first 120 pages has an excellent representation of the grammatical/historical hermeneutical approach that mirrors my own views concerning how we understand God's word to us.
Blessings,
William]]>william2019-12-22T00:08:32-00:00Re: BIG ERRORS: The Bride.
http://overcomersonline.com/FUDforum2/index.php?t=rview&goto=13007&th=1241#msg_13007
Yes seriously. I was taught differently, so am looking to you to present what you have been taught.
And what a great scripture to show our inheritance in Christ - 1 Cor. 3: 22 - 23.
So where do you see we will be with the Lord on His throne?
`To Him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.` (Rev. 3: 21)
Marilyn.
]]>Marilyn Crow2019-12-21T22:22:24-00:00Re: BIG ERRORS: The Bride.
http://overcomersonline.com/FUDforum2/index.php?t=rview&goto=13006&th=1241#msg_13006
Marilyn Crow wrote on Sat, 21 December 2019 05:40
Well here we are again?
So where do you see in scripture, others promised the inheritance of the city?
Well, you probably said it the best--we are Christ's Body. He's not going anywhere without us!
[Luk 17:37 KJV] 37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body [is], thither will the eagles be gathered together.
Seriously though, are you really unaware of the scripture passages that teach this?
Okay, I'll throw out just one to get you started:
[1Co 3:22-23 KJV] 22 Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come;all are yours; 23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ [is] God's. [emphisis mine]
William
]]>william2019-12-21T17:04:55-00:00Re: BIG ERRORS: The Bride.
http://overcomersonline.com/FUDforum2/index.php?t=rview&goto=13005&th=1241#msg_13005
So where do you see in scripture, others promised the inheritance of the city?]]>Marilyn Crow2019-12-21T05:40:54-00:00Re: BIG ERRORS: The Bride.
http://overcomersonline.com/FUDforum2/index.php?t=rview&goto=13004&th=1241#msg_13004
william2019-12-21T05:33:23-00:00Re: BIG ERRORS: The Bride.
http://overcomersonline.com/FUDforum2/index.php?t=rview&goto=13003&th=1241#msg_13003
Actually we know that the New Jerusalem is referred to AS THE BRIDE.
`And I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth has passed away. Also there was no sea. Then I, John, saw the holy city, new Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.` (Rev. 21: 1 & 2)
And God`s word tells us who will be in that city.
`But now they, (Old Testament saints) desired a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.` (Heb. 11: 16)