Deeper Life Women
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Forum: Introductions & General
 Topic: Moving to a NEW Server...
Moving to a NEW Server... [message #12690] Thu, 12 September 2019 19:18
william  is currently offline william
Messages: 1208
Registered: January 2006
Senior Member
Hello Everyone,

Just a heads up to let you know that we are going to be moving to a new host/server this week. I don't know the exact timing but if you notice anything out of the ordinary, don't worry, it should be fully functional as soon as I can move over all of the files.

I'll be moving about 30 domains so I'm not able to give an exact time or date but sometime between today (09/12/2019) and next week about this time (09/19/2019).

Thanks for your patience!


I want to believe!
 Topic: The Fellowship
The Fellowship [message #12682] Wed, 31 July 2019 11:18
Mark L  is currently offline Mark L
Messages: 549
Registered: October 2006
Location: Canada
Senior Member
A secret christian group at the heart of the American Gov't I had never heard of them until it was in my newsfeed this morning. There is a book as well (link below)

I am going to make an effort to find the netflix series and watch it although I'm sure I already know their take on it. stigates-secret-organization-behind-national-prayer-breakfas t rican/dp/0060560053
 Topic: Mike Guthrie
Mike Guthrie [message #12666] Fri, 15 February 2019 10:09
Mark L  is currently offline Mark L
Messages: 549
Registered: October 2006
Location: Canada
Senior Member
Pastor in Virginia. Went to be with the Lord on Tuesday. I knew him fairly well. Visited his church. He held some seminars up here in Canada some years ago. p-guthrie-8159006
 Topic: Another book report!
Another book report! [message #12649] Sat, 01 December 2018 13:32
Mark L  is currently offline Mark L
Messages: 549
Registered: October 2006
Location: Canada
Senior Member
A translation of the OT by Robert Alter

He did 4 other books and I have all of them. He is Jewish and as far as I am aware not particularly religious. He is a scholar and professor with an absolutely intuitive grasp of the Hebrew. I like reading history. I found his book called "The David Story" on 1,2 Samuel bought it and was captivated.

His translations are not intended to be a translation of the bible so us religious fanatics can understand the word. Having said that next time I start my OT bible reading in Genesis I'm gong to use it. He is just a scholar with a huge interest in the Hebrew text. Its interesting that the only other version he likes is the KJV. That puts him at odds with much of the christian world. Although not me!

From the article "I would add that the beautiful cadences, the elegant and pointed choice of words, the expressive use of syntax, the vividness of the language of the dialogues, are all essential elements of the reading experience of the Bible, and I’ve done my best to preserve them in English,” he said."

The Hebrew Bible: A Translation with Commentary (Vol. Three-Volume Set)

I have his other books on Psalms, David, Moses, Wisdom (Proverbs/Job/Ecclesiastes)

 Topic: Book Report
Book Report [message #12648] Sat, 01 December 2018 13:07
Mark L  is currently offline Mark L
Messages: 549
Registered: October 2006
Location: Canada
Senior Member
2000 years of Charismatic Christianity

By Eddie L Hyatt

The book . . .

From the preface

"Its purpose is to show that Pentecostals and Charismatics do have a legitimate history. It also suggests that instead of being on the fringes of orthodox Christianity , Pentecostal and Charismatic Christianity is in the mainstream of both biblical and historic Christianity"

From the introduction

"has it reappeared suddenly in the 20th century with no historical link to the past as some contend"

"The fact is that Pentecostals and Charismatics do have a legitimate history . . . found in the various revival and renewal movements that have emerged constantly in the life of the church"

He makes the point that the book is not cobbled together bits and pieces of church history but a solidly researched scholarly work that will stand up under serious scrutiny. Its also easy to read

Augustine's book "City of God" had a whole chapter on miracles. I read that and went and checked my copy. Strangely enough my edited version didn't have that chapter in it. I wonder why.

Martin Luther
Luther's remarks on the cessation of miracles were taken out of context. The author of the book believes that Luther had a direct experience of seeing the Lord just like Paul. 11 Cor. 12
Many of his followers believed he was a prophet. He also had prophesies fulfilled/prayed for the sick cast out demons etc. You sure don't read that in all the edited biographies of his life.

He gives a lot of info in the book. Also answers some questions I had about some supposedly heretical groups in history. The book has been out for 20 yrs. I don't know why I've never heard of it. Anyway the book is interesting and well worth reading.
 Topic: Supreme Court Justice
Supreme Court Justice [message #12552] Thu, 27 September 2018 15:24
james  is currently offline james
Messages: 1982
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL
Senior Member
To see how determined the left-wing liberal forces that be here in America are to keeping their ungodly laws intact, just look at what's happening with the president's selection for U.S. Supreme Court Justice, Brett Kavanough. Is the timing of these 'revelations' suspect? Of course they are. Can the democrats derail the selection process be creating doubt in this mans' character? Looks that way, but even if they fail his character will be tarnished in the minds of many forever.

God has an agenda, it can't be derailed, nor can any testimony or pressure from the left or from the right can change it, His will will be done.

My prayer is just that, GOD'S WILL BE DONE...(and I trust that's the prayers of all believers...not our 'christian' agenda that 'seems ' right and just, but God's choice.)

O.K. that's my 'getting into politics'....


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
 Topic: Lovers of Their Own Selves
Lovers of Their Own Selves [message #12256] Fri, 01 September 2017 09:57
Mark L  is currently offline Mark L
Messages: 549
Registered: October 2006
Location: Canada
Senior Member

Ran across an interesting video on this subject. Regarding the change in attitudes in our society over the last generation or so. Lots of interesting family friendly material on the site as well.

[Updated on: Sat, 02 September 2017 09:06]

 Topic: Sally Ann
Sally Ann [message #12201] Fri, 27 January 2017 10:24
Mark L  is currently offline Mark L
Messages: 549
Registered: October 2006
Location: Canada
Senior Member
Quite an interesting article here on Wiki. I had no idea. To take heat like this they must have been very effective. When I was about 14 I was camping with my family and listened to a Sally Ann band. The Oompa type. Brass drums etc. It had a deep effect on me even at that young age. As I listened I found the Holy Spirit speaking to me and calling me although at the time I didn't really understand it. Its interesting one of main opposition actually got saved.

[Updated on: Fri, 27 January 2017 10:25]

 Topic: Stan Nichols passed away...
Stan Nichols passed away... [message #12039] Wed, 04 May 2016 23:15
william  is currently offline william
Messages: 1208
Registered: January 2006
Senior Member
Administrator s&user_id=1793395

He was one of my best friends in Indiana. I'm sorry to see him go but I know he's with the Lord and I'll see him again someday!

I may drive up to attend the funeral. If anyone else knew him and plans to go, please let me know.


I want to believe!
 Topic: Don Langebartels
Don Langebartels [message #11608] Mon, 22 June 2015 05:13
Gary  is currently offline Gary
Messages: 877
Registered: August 2008
Location: Indiana
Senior Member
Brother Don Langebartels went to be with the Lord over the weekend. Don't know if any here had set under his ministry. He headed up the Zion Lake Christian Camp near North Vernon.

I have a lot of good memories from that place. Back in the day there was a Seminar held there every weekend in the summer with most of the ministers from Faith Assembly coming down and preaching there. Tom Hamilton and other ministers from around the country preached there also. I remember the summer camp was a great ministry to the youth. Remember to pray for the family.

Sadly missed but with the Lord.


[Updated on: Mon, 22 June 2015 05:14]

 Topic: Passing of Danny Katzer
Passing of Danny Katzer [message #10943] Sun, 16 March 2014 22:39
GWB  is currently offline GWB
Messages: 712
Registered: March 2008
Location: Louisville, Ky area
Senior Member
I just found out that Mark and Patty (Seamon) Katzer's son, Danny, passed.

I don't have any other details right now.

This family is very loving and has been a blessing to all who know them.

Please lift them up in prayer.



"Be still and know that I am God."
 Topic: Joshua's missing Day!
Joshua's missing Day! [message #10697] Thu, 02 January 2014 13:08
Mark L  is currently offline Mark L
Messages: 549
Registered: October 2006
Location: Canada
Senior Member
They got me on this one. issing-day
 Topic: Prunes vs Gems
Prunes vs Gems [message #9679] Mon, 19 August 2013 01:36
GWB  is currently offline GWB
Messages: 712
Registered: March 2008
Location: Louisville, Ky area
Senior Member
I work in Long Term Care (nursing home.)

I have watched dozens of people grow older, decline, and eventually die. I have often wondered how Father picks the moment for people to pass. I think I have seen a small insight into this subject.

"Though our outer self is wasting away, our inner self is being renewed day by day.....For the things that are seen are turning to dust, but the things that are unseen endure forever. II Cor. 4:16, 18.

I see old people with bodies that look like prunes. They are wrinkled and creased. Fat deposits of youth are gone and faces and bodies are sucken and thin. The skin is paper thin. Eyes become dim. Ears no longer hear. The memory, short and long term are gone. The list goes on.

I know some are believing for their youth to be renewed, but I digress in making my point.

What appears to be a prune holds a precious gem inside if one has descended in order to ascend. You must want His Kingdom to come and for the Kingdoms of this world to diminish. We must let go of our agendas and our egos. We must despise the advent of self.

Like Paul, I have been with much and with little. I have lost family and friends. I have learned to be content in all things. What a peace! I have had to dangle in the air and He has asked me to jump off of cliffs. That is the way I put it, anyway.

In order to become a gem inside, sometimes He will ask you to live in exile to this world. I have never been more content in doing so.

I believe that when the gem has grown (closeness to Him) and when it sparkles the most from inside the prune (fruit of the spirit) some pass over into his presence.

I have witnessed a few marvelous things when people pass. They see heaven. They see angels. Some are horrified with what they see, but still refuse to receive Salvation when I share with them. Our Salvation is truly a gift.

So, my prayer is to press on. I glory in the excile of this life. My life is His. He gives me dreams about people, words of knowledge, and what to pray. We don't have to be around people to minister life in every case.

I miss my earthly and Heavenly Father. In His time, I will be out of the mess of this world. In the meantime, a gem is growing and sparkling more and more until He decides what to do with it. Smile

[Updated on: Mon, 19 August 2013 01:39]



"Be still and know that I am God."
 Topic: The R U Ready file
The R U Ready file [message #9199] Tue, 11 December 2012 08:34
Mark L  is currently offline Mark L
Messages: 549
Registered: October 2006
Location: Canada
Senior Member
This one is for the R U Ready File. I'd love to see it. fe-sized-replica-of-noahs-ark/
 Topic: Creation declares the Glory of God
Creation declares the Glory of God [message #8820] Tue, 28 February 2012 10:21
Mark  is currently offline Mark
Messages: 37
Registered: November 2011
Location: Canada
You guys should watch this trailer. Just beautiful. ucts_id=4072& mp;utm_campaign=459783dff9-ecard20120228&utm_medium=emai l&mc_cid=459783dff9&mc_eid=oCiqgaHusK

I find I always have to write something on a steamed mirror....
 Topic: Some rambling thoughts
Some rambling thoughts [message #8776] Thu, 26 January 2012 11:25
Mark  is currently offline Mark
Messages: 37
Registered: November 2011
Location: Canada
Someone asked the question on Lonely planet how to visit Israel and have a polite political conversation. Here are some of the responses. Not trying to offend anyone but I just thought it was kind of funny.

Here was the question

My understanding is that Israel is an intensely political country and that it is often quite difficult to divorce political discussion from daily life. It is part and parcel of it. As well, as Israel has what some might call a disproportionate place in world affairs, it might not be difficult for a visitor to be drawn into a discussion of politics. Does anyone have any tried and proven pointers on the art and etiquette of participating in civil political discussions in Israel? (Operative word civil) Is there anything a well-intentioned but politically aware visitor should be aware of and avoid so as not to give offence?

Some responses

Using "ettiquette" and "Israel" in the same sentence is an oxymoron. Smile

There's a saying among Jerusalem-based diplomats which says: "The first month you'll ask Israelis what they think of the conflict, the second month you'll ask Palestinians what they think of the conflict, the third month on you'll stop asking and you'll get drunk."

There is another saying, that if you visit Israel for a week, you go home and write a book about it. If you go for a month, you write a magazine article. If you go for a year, you don't write anything because you no longer know what to write...

not only do etiquette and israel not belong in the same sentence, i have rarely heard here (in almost 40 years) a civil political discussion! as mentioned, everyone here has very passionate political opinions and is very eager to express them. very very few are willing to engage in a "discussion" , a word that implies dialogue, some sort of give and take, listen and respond. a political "discussion" might be described as more than one israeli offering his/her opinions as holy truth very loudly! and often simultaneously.

Well put. I feel that your advice about week, month, year is true about life as well. The more I learn, the more I realise that I don't know anything. Or as Socrates said, the only thing I know is that I don't know anything.

I find I always have to write something on a steamed mirror....
 Topic: Autism
Autism [message #8748] Wed, 11 January 2012 13:46
Mark  is currently offline Mark
Messages: 37
Registered: November 2011
Location: Canada
Does anyone know what causes it? The reason I ask is there was an article which mentioned it in one of our National dallies here in Canada today. Has there ever been any revelation come through our circles or charismatic circles about it?

From the article

And imagine how the latest news — that previous abortions can raise the risk of autism by 26% in later children carried to full term — will be received. Most reports on the October 2011 Harvard University study didn’t even mention the abortion-autism link, just the gestational diabetes-autism connection. pro-choicers-are-against-any-choice-but-abortion/

[Updated on: Wed, 11 January 2012 13:47]

I find I always have to write something on a steamed mirror....
 Topic: Stratfor
Stratfor [message #8744] Mon, 09 January 2012 13:42
Mark  is currently offline Mark
Messages: 37
Registered: November 2011
Location: Canada
As I'm sure all of you are aware that followed my excellent advice to sign up for Stratfor their site has been hacked.

You need to change all your passwords as the hackers got all the info you provided to them.

What a hassle. I gave them my primary email with my usual password. Went to gmail and found a message from google that they thought my info had been hacked there.

What a hassle. Change all your passwords for whatever info they have.

Also any email from Stratfor is not valid. They are only using facebook & twitter to communicate.

They also have my real name so now I have to change facebook and everything.

I find I always have to write something on a steamed mirror....
 Topic: John Lennon on evolution
John Lennon on evolution [message #7996] Sun, 03 July 2011 11:23
Mark L  is currently offline Mark L
Messages: 549
Registered: October 2006
Location: Canada
Senior Member
From the "Can you believe it file???"

John Lennon on evolution

I don't know if there's any harm in it except they ram it down everybody's throat. ter048051.html

I'm not sure who these people are. I found it on World Net Daily.
 Topic: Hungarian Church worship
Hungarian Church worship [message #7767] Thu, 21 April 2011 14:40
tomax7  is currently offline tomax7
Messages: 45
Registered: August 2006
Location: Calgary, AB
Praise God this is a blessing as it is my heritage per se - Mother's side.

Remember to Smile! God loves you!
 Topic: Christine O'Donnell...sister in Christ?
Christine O'Donnell...sister in Christ? [message #7393] Fri, 15 October 2010 14:59
james  is currently offline james
Messages: 1982
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL
Senior Member
As I read about Christine O'Donnell and see an occasional TV interview with her I thought this would be a good argument for why Christians shouldn't be involved in politics. She started with the 'Tea Party's' endorsemet and is now running as the Republican candidate for Congress from Delaware. Of course, mainstream 'conservative' Chrisitanity just automatically jumps on the bandwagon because no one wants to endorse a 'liberal'. But after reading a few quotes by her I'd question why Christians would support her.

Some statements attributed to her...

"My faith has influenced my personal life."

"My faith hasn't influenced my politics."

"God told me to run for office."

On her experience with christianity...

"There's only truth and not truth, you're either very good or evil.
I went back to my dorm and asked myself what I was."

Concerning her involvement with witchcraft...

"One of my first dates with a witch was on a Satanic alter, and I didn't know it."

I don't believe in reincarnation or cloning, so I know she's not Sarah Palin...but why do they remind me of each other? So for those who believe that it's a Christians duty and responsibility to participate in the 'American process' of elections of government leaders, what would be the 'Lord's will' for how you'd cast your vote should you live in Delaware? Vote for the 'christian' conservative Republican (who upon a little research proves to be something besides what she claims) or, vote for the liberal Democrat (who you know will endorse abortion, gay rights, the healthcare bill, bigger government, and whatever else ungodly thing that comes up)?
Just something to consider when making choices concerning which kingdom you want to be a part of...btw: one of them will be elected, and the downward spiral will continue. angelical_N.htm

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
 Topic: The Question ?
The Question ? [message #7389] Tue, 12 October 2010 20:30
JWBTI  is currently offline JWBTI
Messages: 289
Registered: March 2007
Location: Ohio
Senior Member
The question many have pondered over the years is…….

Why did I not get healed when I prayed ?
Take this quiz and see what the answer is !

1) Do you have any unforgiveness in your heart, hate or resentment ?
Mt 6:12-15, Mk 11:25, James 5:14-15.

2) Do you believe that you have Jobs trial or Pauls thorn ?
If so, do you have Jobs righteousness or Pauls abundance of revelation ?
Remember this! Job got healed Chapter 42 and Paul wasn’t sick.

3) Do you blame God or charge him with putting or allowing this Infirmity on you ?
Read John 10:10, Acts 10:38

4) Have you replaced Devine Healing with Medical Science ?
Read Mk 11:22, Mt 6:24, Ex 23:23, Heb 13:8

5) Have you asked for Healing, In Faith, without wavering ?
Read James 1:1-8

6) Are you Fully persuaded, that what God had promised, He is able to perform ?
Rom 4:21,
Mk 11:22-24,
James 5:15,
Mk 16:17-18
1 Jh 5:13-15

If the answer to questions 1 thru 4 are No !
And Yes! to 5 and 6, then stand fast in Faith, in Gods Word !
Your Healing is on its way !

If your answer to any of the questions 1 thru 4 are Yes!
And No ! to 5 and 6,
Then humble yourselves before God, read and believe His Promises
allow the Holy Spirit to impart faith to your heart so you will be Healed !

 Topic: Just a quick note...
Just a quick note... [message #5644] Fri, 27 March 2009 11:16
william  is currently offline william
Messages: 1208
Registered: January 2006
Senior Member
Just wanted to let those who are busy deleting messages that there is a
quicker method than deleting them one at a time... I can delete in bulk
if I know the reason and criteria you are using. I hate to see someone
wasting a lot of time when it is totally unnecessary as I can do it in
minutes instead of the laborious method of removing them one at a time.

I'm sure you are trying to be respectful to the other members who have
taken time to post; deleting your notes from the midst of the others one
at a time can be an arduous task.

Let me know if you need help in redeeming the time!


 Topic: Clean up, pack up, look up!
Clean up, pack up, look up! [message #5642] Wed, 25 March 2009 09:15
GWB  is currently offline GWB
Messages: 712
Registered: March 2008
Location: Louisville, Ky area
Senior Member
Psalm 62

A Calm Resolve to Wait for the Salvation of God

Truly my soul silently waits for God:
From Him comes my salvation.
He only is my rock and my salvation;
He is my defense;
I shall not be greatly moved.

How long will you attack a man?
You shall be slain, all of you,
Like a leaning wall and a tottering fence.
They only consult to cast him down from his high position;
They delight in lies;
They bless with their mouth,
But they curse inwardly.

My soul, wait silently for God alone,
For my expectation is from Him.
He only is my rock and my salvation;
He is my defense;
I shall not be moved.
In God is my salvation and my glory;
The rock of my strength,
And my refuge, is in God.

Trust in Him at all times, you people;
Pour out your heart before Him;
God is a refuge for us.

Surely men of low degree are a vapor,
Men of high degree are a lie;
If they are weighed on the scales,
They are altogether lighter than vapor.
Do not trust in oppression,
Nor vainly hope in robbery;
If riches increase,
Do not set your heart on them.

God has spoken once,
Twice I have heard this:
That power belongs to God.
Also to You, O Lord, belongs mercy;
For You render to each one according to his work.

God has given this Psalm to me for the past few months about His return. I know we are not to walk in fear of man or Satan, but I think a good dose of the fear of God never hurt anyone.

I was just wondering if anyone else is REALLY being dealt with about these things. I don't want to miss the first load!



Be still and know that I am God

 Topic: Mike Wingfield
Mike Wingfield [message #5339] Tue, 24 February 2009 21:54
whitearizona  is currently offline whitearizona
Messages: 8
Registered: April 2008
Junior Member
Can anybody give me some info on Mike Wingfield. His name seems to be popping up recently and I know nothing about him. Thanks for any info you have.
 Topic: Our Family Trouble, My Story
Our Family Trouble, My Story [message #4368] Sun, 14 December 2008 23:38
GWB  is currently offline GWB
Messages: 712
Registered: March 2008
Location: Louisville, Ky area
Senior Member
I believe Jesus would have me share my story with those who are interested. Please email me, in this forum, and I will send it to you. Due to the nature of my situation, I need to know who you are. I went to FA from six months before the "Exodus" to the new building until 1986; surely it cannot be very hard. Does this mean we are now officially underground? Rolling Eyes Smile

If I do not know you, I will have to have another member on this forum recommend that it is OK to send it to you. I am sorry, but that is the only way I know how to do it unless someone has a suggestion for me. Smile

It is a story of great battle and great victory. It is a rehearsal in words as to a type of persecution that I believe is near. It is also a story of restoration and not condemnation.

Blessings, GWB

"Be still and know that I am God"

 Topic: He Ain't Heavy, He's My Brother
He Ain't Heavy, He's My Brother [message #4367] Sun, 14 December 2008 23:23
GWB  is currently offline GWB
Messages: 712
Registered: March 2008
Location: Louisville, Ky area
Senior Member
I wanted to bring up a topic we need to seriously consider. This will be brief due to time, but I think it is important. I will do the best I can to check in, even with moving. Rolling Eyes

Jiz has taken the time and care to minister to me out of this forum. Neat things happen there with people! Shocked

He is my first prayer warrior in agreement with me and my situation. Yippee! Very Happy ...anybody else? I need for my name to pass your lips everyday when you pray. Please let me know who is praying for what concerning me and what He has laid on your heart.

With what has happened to me, I have been praying for three years to the day, marked in my Bible, for Him to brush the dust off of all overcomers all over the world, raise them up, and get the energizer bunnies running again. The questions of numbers, timing, etc., are for another thread. There I go again. Shocked

Does anybody else need someone to hold them up in prayer and for what specifically? You cannot get any better than the faith in this place. Smile Besides, it is kinda' hard to be bickerin' when yur prayin' for 'em. Rolling Eyes Very Happy

Personally, I am going to start a prayer list as to who responds, and what to pray for, etc. Then we need a thread for manisfestations. Hey Hombre, this is your cue for a slam dunk teaching, or anyone else for that matter. This threads is just for requests. Shocked Very Happy

He has given me Psalms 105 and, of course, Rev. 12.

Blessings, GWB

"Be still and know that I am God"

[Updated on: Sun, 14 December 2008 23:48]

 Topic: Hello All
Hello All [message #3972] Wed, 29 October 2008 15:57
bullcea1  is currently offline bullcea1
Messages: 1
Registered: September 2008
Location: Elkhart IN
Junior Member
My name is Chris Albright and I went to Faith Assembly from age 4 (1973) until age 18 (1987) and was able to see the formation and eventual dissipation of the church in northern Indiana. There were many great things I learned and many great things I sacrificed growing up in FA. I had many good friends and knew alot of terrific people. I have seen that M Chupp posted here and wanted to say hello to him, our fathers were good friends and we ocassionally hung out together with other kids our age. Also Isaw his mom a few years back at Malcolm Webbers church were Iwas delivering on my job as a UPS driver. Very nice people. My father was in the ministry about ten years or so and I have been told and I also think he was a good charismatic speaker. Younger days at the barn and the home and tent meetings were very uplifting. It was a great wholesome atmosphere for kids with Mrs Reussers teachings in the bookstore, the animals and out door activity, no tv so i read every book i could get my hands on including the whole world book encylopedia. After the move to the "new building" I personally felt things begin to change. No more childrens classes just a nursery. Sections of the church began to get cliqueish. I was about 13 when a man i didnt know came up and told me he doubted my salvation. At the time I was doing better than alot of kids my age and that broke my spirit. I was taking abuse frowm kids at school and turning the other cheek, I wantd to play sports badly, but didn't even ask knowing what the answer would be. I didn't associate with "worldly individuals", but here was this random guy sowing the seeds of doubt and judgement on a very young person. I thought to myself then I NEED TO GET OUT! If my efforts to live the christian life were in vain to these people, i did not need them. Personally I have never doubted my salvation I had repented my sins, and had asked God to take over my life. Iknew He was with me then and I know He is now. It was very hard to sit in church after that and my attitiude towards it became very bad. We moved to Peoria IL where my father was a pastor and while we were there FA imploded causing that church to become splintered. Having basically no church our family moved back to Indiana and I went to Bethel College while my dad eventually gave up the ministry. I went on to start my career at UPS and my parents split up. My dad is still in the area, my mom went to TX and then to MO and is still living there. I ould also like to say hi to Duncan and buckley(thanks for the piano lessons lois), I have seen Mark and Missy Akers over the years, but not for awhile, I used to hang out with them and Kevin and Jay Deckard, Scott Reed and many others. The only person I have had recent contact with is Angie Davis who is doing well and is nice to have someone who remembers alot of what it was like growing up there to talk with. There is much more to say but I'm not the best typist and my fingers are getting tired. God Bless you all and I would love to hear from you.
 Topic: On The Head Covering
On The Head Covering [message #3825] Mon, 20 October 2008 00:30
Michael The Disciple  is currently offline Michael The Disciple
Messages: 166
Registered: September 2007
Location: Somerset Ky
Senior Member

Question for those who believe in the headcovering. Do you believe it is essential just in the meetings or in public or at anytime one prays?

This is not just for women. What about a man praying wearing a hat when he is alone?
 Topic: Since Faith Assembly (and related Bodies)...
Since Faith Assembly (and related Bodies)... [message #3662] Thu, 09 October 2008 11:01
Messages: 22
Registered: January 2006
Junior Member

Is it well with your soul?[ 13 vote(s) ]
1.Yes, I am walking with the Lord, growing closer all the time! 8 / 62%
2.I am no longer walking with the Lord. 0 / 0%
3.I was backslidden for a while, but I'm back right with the Lord! 5 / 38%
4.I've been backslidden, but I'm under conviction and want to get right with God. 0 / 0%

Is it well with your soul? Smile Here's a poll (votes are totally anonymous and will not reveal your user name!).

[Updated on: Thu, 06 November 2008 20:25]


"I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus."--Phil 3:12
 Topic: Church Poll #1
Church Poll #1 [message #3657] Thu, 09 October 2008 09:54
Messages: 22
Registered: January 2006
Junior Member

Church Poll #1[ 10 vote(s) ]
1.I currently attend a local church. 4 / 40%
2.I currently home-church with only my family. 0 / 0%
3.I currently home-church, including other families. 0 / 0%
4.I'm currently visiting churches to find a "home." 1 / 10%
5.I don't attend a local church. 0 / 0%
6.I don't attend a local church, but would if I could find one that is "biblical." 5 / 50%

Here is an ANONYMOUS poll (your user name will NOT show up when you vote!) about whether or not you currently attend a local church.

(Now, I realize we are the church, but I'm using this phrasing due to my inability to come up with something more concise. Wink )


"I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus."--Phil 3:12
 Topic: Henry And Debbie Carrandante
Henry And Debbie Carrandante [message #3571] Thu, 02 October 2008 10:33
Michael The Disciple  is currently offline Michael The Disciple
Messages: 166
Registered: September 2007
Location: Somerset Ky
Senior Member

Hi saints,

Anyone recall this couple? They attended for a long time and had a large number of kids. They lived in the Liberty Mills area. The last I knew Henry had done some travelling with Jim Brenemen probably in about 1986. Any info appreciated.
 Topic: Looking for old friends
icon5.gif  Looking for old friends [message #3526] Sun, 28 September 2008 21:08
Psalm  is currently offline Psalm
Messages: 1
Registered: September 2008
Location: NC
Junior Member
Does anyone know how I can get in touch with Elizabeth Hart Allabach or Krystal Borsa Mishler? Elizabeth was my best friend at FA before we moved to Alabama in 1989. Krystal was my next best friend. The last time I saw them was at Krystal's wedding when she married Jonathan Mishler. I'm not sure I'm spelling that right. He was the son of Don Mishler. Elizabeth married a guy named Joshua Allabach. I found their info on, but the phone number listed has been disconnected. I regret not keeping in touch better, but if anyone could let me know how I could get in touch with either of them, I'd be most grateful!
 Topic: Random Memories...whats yours?
Random Memories...whats yours? [message #3461] Tue, 23 September 2008 00:05
Messages: 3
Registered: April 2008
Location: BEAUTIFUL Indiana
Junior Member
I was wondering if any care to post random memories of Early F.A. Not necessarily the teaching but the buildings, surroundings and events that caused us to feel so unique. So, since I have a few, I'll go first.
My earliest memory is back at Claypool. I was a very young child at the time..about 6 or so. My family was there and we seemed to be one of the last ones to leave, alot.My dad prayed for people and preached too. P. was our childrens church teacher. It was at the Freemans house. I can still remember the floor plan. Anyways, I remember the contest of who could be the quietest. The nights got pretty long and kids get pretty wound up when it gets past their bed time. I never found out who won.
When that house got too small for the people that came we moved to J. E. 3 car garage by the lake. I remember how C. had this can of air freshner in the bathroom called 'roses roses'. That stuff smell sooo good. We loved spraying it. Their house was huge to me. But soon it got too small.
I went to the Glory Barn before it was remodeled. Mel was a friend of my father. He showed us the future plans of how the upstairs was going to be cleaned up and the walls repaired.(There were these big holes in the outside walls) The basement of the Barn had a ping pong table. The sheep shed section was converted into a small chapel. I remember the bunk beds in the end where I would fall asleep. Oh and the sugar cubes for the coffee. There were those salamander heaters that heated the downstairs and yes, the glorious field stone fire place. And the backless benches made out of logs that I think once were part of the barn. It was a very casual setting about 1972 or so.
I remember the night when we moved from the 3 car garage. They were packing up the chairs and I asked why. Someone told me we were moving to the Glory Barn. When we moved to the Barn, there were these big rolls of red indoor outdoor carpet that hadn't been laid yet.. I remember sitting on them during church. All that other work had been done. Another favorite seat was on the steps that went up to Mel's residence. Of course the top steps were Mel's familys seats. I loved going to the Upper Room Book Store. The comics that were for sale with 'Christian' Archie and the scary 'Chic' adult comics. My favorite thing was the COOL stickers! 'One Way Jesus' I would buy them and put them on my school folders.
On Sunday afternoons my sis and I would go to the 'N' trailer court and take guitar lessons with a few other kids my age. I don't remember how many months the lessons lasted but that talent has stayed with me to this day. Thank you Beverly from Michigan where ever you are. Oh, And I still have my 3 ring notebook you gave us too.
The Barn was an amazing set up. The goats, chicken coop, and field behind it. Sunflowers for seeds and huge gardens for canning. There was a wooded area way in the back that had paths in it. It was just amazing how it all disappeared so quickly later. The Love feast! And foot washings! All those people! Lining up to get seats on Sunday. The study off to the side of the pulpit.
The music was one of a kind for me. Guitars and more guitars. Blue Jeans were the norm.
Well, I think I will let someone else share a few memories....
 Topic: Brother Hodge
Brother Hodge [message #2039] Sat, 07 June 2008 03:42
grandom  is currently offline grandom
Messages: 404
Registered: October 2007
Senior Member
This past week Brother Ron (JWBTI) and myself had the blessed experience of meeting Brother Hodge and his wife Arlene and their friend Joy. They were in northern Indiana for the wedding of their grandson. It was just a few short hours but was one of the most uplifting times of my life that I will remember for all eternity.Brother Hodge has posted many faith filled posts on this forum and to meet him in person and see that he walks the talk is just tremendous. Here is a man who is walking out a very debilitating trial and is trusting Jesus totally for his healing.We went to minister to him if we could and we ended up being the ones who were blessed. He still is walking out some issues but he trust the Lord Jesus Christ with all his being and in this day and age I don't find many people who truly trust the Lord. That's not to say there aren't any but I find that even in scripture it asks will Jesus find any faith when he returns. I can say without a doubt that if he returned today he would find it in Hodge. What a privilege to have gotten to meet him and to see the faithfulness
Of Jesus.
Our belief is that he will be totally manifested and be able to give us some more faith filled posts.We join you brother Hodge in uplifting our risen saviour.
THE LOVEGREEN STORY [message #1219] Thu, 14 February 2008 10:55
Messages: 35
Registered: December 2007
Location: Auburn, Alabama

A C Valdez Sr., in his book Fire On Azusa Street, wrote

In those days—like today—skeptics loudly insisted that “the age of miracles is past.”

I could only answer, “It is past all right—past, present, and future—just as Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever.” So many miracles of all varieties happened—cures of “incurables,” reversal of sin-filled lives, and strange, supernatural events that couldn’t have occurred by coincidence.

I shall never forget the astounding series of major and minor miracles that occurred to a Mr. Lovegreen, a hotel owner in San Bernardino and Riverside counties of California.

Thirty years before, he had been a New York-based salesman who, with his wife, had traveled many times from city to city across country.

One day he told her, “I’m going west again.”

She sighed, “Dear, I’m tired of traveling. We’ve done it so much. I just can’t take it any longer.”

That was not the response Lovegreen had expected, and he became upset and then stubborn.

“All right, if that’s the way you feel, stay,” he replied. “But I’m going anyway?’

Just like that, he walked out of her life and headed for California. Now, during that thirty years, he became an alcoholic, deathly ill and seemingly hopeless. One night he fell up against our San Bernardino mission door, which flung open. And there, lying on the floor, reeking of whiskey, was this large, once fine-looking man, hemorrhaging from his stomach.

When I reached him, he glanced up, hopelessness in his bloodshot, blue eyes. As more blood oozed from his mouth, he gasped.

What pity I felt for him!

“O, parson. Do something for me!”

Now the hemorrhaging stopped; he coughed, soon caught his breath and explained himself.

“Before my mother died, she prayed for me. While she was dying, she took me by the hand, looked into my eyes and said, “Son, I had hoped that, by this time, you would have given your heart to Jesus. Your mother would then have had the joy of seeing you a born again Christian. It seems I won’t have that pleasure. But, son, before I go, do me a favor. Put forth the effort to be a Christian and meet me in heaven. I’ll be watching for you through the eastern gate?”

“I said, ‘Yes, mother.’ Parson, what else could I say? But I confess to you, I haven’t tried”

The creases in the forehead of his ruddy face deepened in grave concern.

“A few hours ago, I came away from the doctor’s office. The lining of my stomach is gone—eaten out with alcohol. The doctor advised me; ‘Lovegreen, there’s nothing I can do for you now. Take my advice. Go right on drinking, because you won’t live long anyway. And if you’re drunk, you won’t know the difference.’ ”

Lovegreen’s watery eyes begged me as much as his voice.

“Parson, can’t you do something for me?”

“Yes, if you’ll promise to do something for me.”

“What’s that?”

Again he gasped for air, and blood oozed from his mouth.

“Come into the mission. Promise that you won’t leave until we pray through to God. Then you’ll have complete deliverance from alcohol, and I also promise that Jesus will heal your body and make you whole.”

As the path eased for an instant, he looked up at me with a flicker of hope.

“That’s the least I can do.”

I have dealt with many alcoholics, and their promises are often worthless. So I was still skeptical. Lovegreen slowly, painfully rose to his feet and followed me to the altar. In this mission, we had home-made, awkward-looking, heavy benches eighteen feet long. They served me well that night, because my wife, mother and I piled many of these benches against the back door.

Then we fell upon our knees and prayed. The spiritual battle was on. I don’t know how many times Lovegreen collapsed on the floor, but the devil spoke to me in no uncertain terms.

“Valdez, if you keep this man locked up in here, and he dies. you will be held for manslaughter?”

That sent fear racing through me. Unfortunately, what he had said was true. And I felt a terrible temptation to yield. But it wasn’t the voice of God. God doesn’t speak that way. The Lord says, “Come unto me all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.” So I turned and said— “Satan, get behind me in the Name of Jesus,” and the Spirit of the Lord rebuked the devil.

That was just the beginning of the story It was a night of struggle, and Lovegreen started screaming in an unearthly way. “Get those snakes off me!” he begged. He was having terrifying nightmares of delirium tremens. He thrashed and worked his hands to untangle snakes winding around his neck. “O, my God,” he cried, “Those witches and demons!”

We continued to pray with faith, through the night and into the early morning. At six o’clock, we were hoarse and exhausted but still holding on to God in his behalf.

By this time, he was beginning to flail his arms and crying out:

“Let me go! Open the door! Let me go!”

But I spoke sharply to him.

“You promised to stay until deliverance comes?”

A few minutes later, when my mother, wife and I were praying, the glory of God came down like a skyfull of light, filling the room. All of us looked up at the same time. A bright shaft of light focused on Lovegreen’s face, and he shouted, “I’m saved, I’m saved, I’m saved.”

Not only was he gloriously born of the Spirit of God, he was also healed in body. His stomach was so well he was able to eat a large beef steak. He no longer wanted alcohol.

An urge to be with his wife had gnawed at him off and on for thirty years and was part of the reason for his alcoholism. They had been divorced and, in a generation, had not communicated with one another. Like him, she had never remarried.

On one morning, she felt a powerful desire to travel to Los Angeles. She didn’t know why. Although a Christian, she did not realize that God was leading her. Her train stopped at San Bernardino, and a strange urge made her take a layover in that city

The railroad station was then at least three quarters of a mile from the heart of town, so she drifted down on the left hand side of the street, looking for a hotel.

At that very instant, Lovegreen felt a strong desire to go for a walk, and he started down the same side of the street.

The woman coming toward him looked familiar. He blinked his clear blue eyes. The woman saw him and squinted to make sure. The man coming toward her looked so familiar.

Suddenly they were face to face for the first lime in thirty years.

Lovegreen felt a surge of warmth. She was beautiful—snow white hair, still a young face. How could she be even more lovely than before?

Similar feelings stirred her.

They gazed into each other’s eyes momentarily, and the years between melted away. Then they literally flew into each other’s arms.

When I learned from them what had happened, I knew that this wonderful reunion was a story written and directed by the Holy Spirit.

A few days later, they asked me to marry them. It was a I privilege and an honor for me.

This was just one of the many flames of Azusa Street.

THE EVIDENCE OF HIS POWER! [message #1216] Wed, 13 February 2008 13:18
Messages: 35
Registered: December 2007
Location: Auburn, Alabama

I want to tell you about a miracle and this miracle happened to me. How? By one prayer, after I had the correct instructions about divine healing.

Everything that we receive from God comes through His grace, by faith. I had multiple sclerosis for more than fifteen years. I could not walk around without stumbling and falling. Many times I was in a wheel-chair, I often broke my bones, but I firmly believed that the Lord was going to heal me. If there is no cure for the illness humanly speaking, it matters not: healing comes from God and there is nothing impossible with Him (Luke 1:37 “For with God nothing shall be impossible.”)

My church did not teach Divine healing, but my Bible does. So, if your church does not teach you about Divine healing, your Bible teaches it. Isaiah 53:5 says: "With His stripes we are healed." Isaiah 59:1 says: "Behold, the Lord's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither is His ear heavy that it cannot hear." Oh, He can hear your prayer right now.

Hebrews 13:8 says: "Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, and today, and forever." Did you ever have a Scripture come alive to you? This was the first one that became alive to me. When I read Hebrews 13:8, I knew definitely that "Jesus Christ is, the same, yesterday, today and forever."

Then I read about Moses. Moses said to God: "Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me. What is his name? What shall I say unto them? And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM." (Exodus 3:13-14).

These words put God in the present. He has never existed in the past. He is always the God of TODAY. Then I also read in Acts 10:34 that "God is no respecter of persons."

Then I said to God: "Lord, if Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever, and there is no respect of persons and by His stripes we were healed, then this is for me."

The Bible says that “faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God” (Rom. 10:17). We receive a measure of faith when we accept Jesus Christ as our personal Savior, but if we want that faith to increase; this has to come through the Word of God.

I became more and more paralyzed. One doctor told me that the day would come when I would be completely blind, and thus it was, the optic nerves were paralyzed leaving me completely blind. Then one day they told me not to stay alone for before the next 24 hours would go by I would be completely paralyzed --so it was.

The ambulance came and they took me to the hospital, but on the way I said to the boys that took me: "You forgot something?” They answered: "What did we forget Gertrude?" I said: "You did not bring my shoes." "Oh", they said: "What in the world is a paralyzed person going to do with shoes? You can't use them, you won't need them."

I said: "Oh yes, I am going to need those shoes! One of these days the Lord is going to heal me and I will need those shoes to get out of the hospital." I believed with all my heart that God was going to heal me, but I did not know how to appropriate my healing.

Many people came to pray for me. I firmly believe that all the prayers that were said by my family and friends in my behalf were heard by God. When we pray in faith for someone, God hears and considers that prayer. Perhaps the answer is delayed but it is never denied.

While I was in the hospital I had three heart attacks and one stroke. Every time they would put me under an oxygen tent, I would think: "There is room for two, Jesus and I." The nurse would come and say: "Don't say a word; you must not waste your breath." One does not have to speak in a loud voice to Jesus. I would pray and feel His presence and I knew the answer was on the way.

This was my prayer: "Oh, Lord, make me whole again, don't just make me better, but make me entirely whole again." I remembered how Jesus asked the impotent man: "Wilt thou be made whole?" and I answered to that question: "Yes, Lord, make me entirely whole again."

Spiritual Preparation for Healing

The Lord had to deal with me concerning many things. I had worked in the church for twenty-five years and thought I was doing pretty well but the Lord thought otherwise. One day He said to me: "Do you love your neighbor like yourself, all the time and all of them?" I answered: "No Lord, how can I, when some I don't even like?" He taught me how to love them through the love of Jesus Christ. Yes, you can love your neighbor through the love of Jesus Christ. He dwells in us and we in Him, so it is possible to love others such as He loves them.

The Lord also dealt with me concerning doubt, fear and unbelief, things that I never considered as sin. For three months He taught me about those things that were within me that were not according to His Holy will.

I finally became completely paralyzed so that I could not do one thing except talk to Jesus. I knew that the Lord was with me and when we know He is with us, we can stand all the disappointments in life. One day they covered me up with a sheet for they thought I was gone. I could move one hand, so when they saw that move, they came and took the sheet off.

Faith Unmovable

I was always asking those that came to visit me to bring my shoes. No one responded for everyone thought I would not need clothes or shoes. It wasn't their fault; they did not know Christ as their Healer. I would say to them: "Bring me some shoes, for when the Lord heals me I am going to need them."

One day the head doctor came to see me and said: "Gertrude, I would like to know your attitude about yourself." The night before I had suffered much thirst, as spasms produce thirst and they would not give me water at night for fear that I would swallow my tongue. Now came the question: "I want to know your attitude about yourself." I asked him if he wanted an honest answer, or if he wanted me to joke. He said he wanted an honest answer. So I answered: "I do not see myself here lying less than a human being." Then he said: "How do you see yourself?" I said: "I see myself walking with shoes on."

"Oh," he said, "I am sorry I ever asked you that question. That will never be! You will never be different from what you are now!" So, I answered: "According to you, I’ll never be different, but you have not considered my Lord. One of these days He is going to heal me and I will walk with shoes on."

His answer was: "Oh that is your imagination." He thought that for he did not believe the Bible, but I know that God gave me a faith vision concerning myself walking, just like He gave Abraham a vision when he was to go into a far country.

I was tired of being in that room in the hospital and one day I asked the nurses if they would take me outside and put me under a tree, for I knew there were trees out in the yard, having been in this hospital many times before, when I was in a wheel chair. They called for the head nurse and she said "Gertrude, do you realize that if we were to take you outside we would have to have enough men to carry you bed and all? Don't you think this is unreasonable?" Yes, I answered, I withdraw my request.

The Divine Answer

One day a woman came into my room, Beatrice by name, and asked me: "Do you believe that God can heal you and do you want me to pray?" I answered yes to both questions and she said a short prayer and left. As she was leaving the room, an audible voice said to me: "I sent this woman to you."

I was frantic for I had no way of knowing what the woman looked like, for I was blind, so I called on the person in the next bed and asked them to call this woman. When she was by my bed, I said to her: "God spoke to me and said that He sent you to me." Beatrice said, "I am so glad you called me back, I was in my home in Maryland when God spoke to me and asked me to come to Las Vegas, Nevada and visit all the incurable wards and ask people if they wanted me to pray for them. He added that one day a woman would say to me that God sent me to her. I was getting tired of getting a cold shoulder as I went around asking: Do you believe God can heal you and do you want me to pray?"

Oh, I am so happy that Beatrice obeyed God and traveled from one end of the country to the other to do His will. Once she knew who she was to pray for she started to fast without food and without water, in spite of the terrible heat, she obeyed our Lord. Every evening she would come to the hospital to pray for me, and everyday I was worse. She found me on July first and three nights after that on July fourth she was told that my grandson, who lived in this same city, had been called and asked to make arrangements to take care of my body.

When she got to my bed-side she asked: "Do you still believe that God can heal you?" My answer was yes. Then she asked: "Even now?" Again my answer was affirmative. This time she asked: "Do you realize that this is the last opportunity, it has to be now or never?" My answer was: "Yes I know this."

Beatrice then said: "If I bring you a glass of cold water and place it here beside your bed, do you believe that if you would drink it, it would quench the terrible thirst you have? Oh, I said, that is easy to believe. She said, "Now if I bring the glass of cold water and place it here by your bed but you do not drink it you would still believe that it would quench your thirst, but you would still be thirsty because you did not drink the water, though you believed. That is what you are doing with healing, you believe that God can heal you but there is no contact of faith, it is necessary that you accept your healing in a definite way, even as you accepted Christ as your personal Savior.

"There are many sinners who believe that Jesus died for their sins and was resurrected from the dead but they remain sinners because they do not accept salvation for themselves. That is what you are doing with healing, you believe that God can heal you, but it is necessary that you take this healing right now. That is true faith."

Oh, God knows the intentions of our heart. He knows our spiritual condition, He knows our spiritual stature, and He knows if we truly believe in His greatness and power.

Beatrice told me to raise my hands and pray. I lifted my heart to God and raised my one finger that I could move and said to the Lord: "Lord, I take my healing this moment, I take it like water, I accept it, I believe, but I am afraid."

Of a truth there is no room for fear. Fear indicates unbelief. I said to God: "I am afraid that you will ask of me something that I am not able to do. I fear that I am not capable of fulfilling that which you would ask of me."

The Lord then spoke to me in an audible voice and said: "Go and say that God healed you. Go to those that believe in divine healing and go to those who do not believe, those who mock and scorn and tell them that God healed you." I then answered: "Yes, Lord, I will go."

It was at this point that I saw Jesus standing by the side of my bed and when I saw Jesus I could see the entire room. Jesus had restored my sight! I must say here that when I say, I saw Jesus, I saw all except His face which was but a very bright light. Then the Lord touched me with the tips of His fingers and healed me completely.

Many have asked, "What did you feel?" I will tell you what I felt. Fire started to go from my head all through my body and my body had been like ice. The divine heat circulated all through my body and I started to feel my bones crack, for my muscles were like cement, my hands and feet were all twisted, my body was a big arch, my head and feet touching the bed but the rest of my body in the air.

My bones ached as the Lord was straightening them but it did not matter about the pain, for my eyes were on Jesus. When we have our eyes on Jesus, pain does not matter. He told me many things that night. He ordered me to stay in the hospital three days and three nights, that I might testify to all that God had healed me and speak about salvation in Him.

Jesus said to me: "I am not returning you to your old life. You cannot live your own life anymore. I am loaning your life to you that you might testify about Me. I will take, care of you." So, I know I am living on borrowed time, but that does not matter. The important thing is that I obey Him.

Many people have asked me: "What did you say to Jesus?" I'll tell you, when one is in the presence of the Lord, you do not say anything to Him, you listen to what He has to say and you will hear it with every fiber of your body and you will never forget it.

Live Testimony Is Effective

For a while after Jesus left, I did not get up, I had a bit of fear of saying that God had healed me. I was not prepared to tell them and they were not prepared to hear me. Of a truth the City of Las Vegas was not prepared to see the evidence of God.

Someone had finally brought me a pair of shoes, so I got up and put them on. Afterwards they asked me if it was difficult to walk, since I had not walked for such a long time. I said: "Oh no, it was difficult to stay on the floor, under the powerful anointing of God." I felt like I could float, for two weeks I felt like I was walking on my tip-toes.

I walked out in the hall and one of the patients who saw me raised his hands and said: "Glory to God, look what the Lord has done for Gertrude!" There were people in the hall and as they would see me they would fall on their knees and start to pray. They were calling on God upon seeing the evidence of someone who had been completely paralyzed, now walking.

I walked into the nurses' room, I did not mean to hurt them, but two of them passed out when they saw my face. They had to carry them out on stretchers. Later they told me that my face had been discolored and bags of water were under my eyes, when the Lord healed me He wiped it all off and gave me a natural face.

One of the head nurses came, she went into hysterics and said: "Gertrude, you can't be here because you can't sit and you can't walk and I have signed the last papers on you, you can't see and you can't stay here." Then I said to her: "Oh yes, I can be here, I am just like you, look at my hands, God has healed me, they are not like the hands of a paralytic person, I am just like you."

Then she said to me: "I know that you can't be alive, this is not you that is here. Tell me how many people helped you down the hall?" I said: "Just one." She said: "Please tell us who it was." I said: "It was Jesus Christ."

They called the superintendent of the hospital. He had known me for years, for I had been in and out of this hospital many times and he knew my condition. Now he said: "Gertrude, I am an unbeliever, but now that the Lord has come and worked a miracle in this hospital, this old hospital has rocked on its heels. Ever since Jesus came to heal you no one has worked in this part of the hospital, but that does not matter. Look what the Lord has done! Here was an unbeliever admitting that Jesus had worked a miracle. Hallelujah!

Yes, it was a miracle, for if it had been a healing I would have had to learn to walk. God left many signs for them. One was the sign of the bed. People would come and touch the bed and it would give them a shock. Then I understood that when Jesus came and anointed me for healing, He anointed the bed also and left it for a sign for the unbelievers.

The next morning they came to doctor a bed sore. I asked them: "Did you come to doctor me?" They said: "This is duty." I told them to go ahead and what a surprise when they found the place just like the palm of my hand. They exclaimed: "This truly is a miracle for the flesh had flaked away so that we could see the bone and it does not heal up like this!"

Praise God for His perfect work and signs for the unbelievers. Hallelujah! This did not take place in a corner but in a public place so that the people could see the manifestation of the power of God.

I told the director of the hospital that I would only be there for three days and three nights, but he answered: "Oh no, you have to stay 30 days for observation." I said: "It is impossible for Jesus told me to stay for only three days and three nights."

When it came time to sign the final papers the phone rang and the nurse said to the director: "It is your Chief of Staff." He answered: "Lay that phone down, for if I take that call the time will be past when Jesus Christ said Gertrude should go and I don't want that on me." Oh yes, they obeyed what the Lord had said!

Another thing they noticed was the change in my handwriting. Some said that I was not the same person. So I said to them: "I know you have a psychiatrist here in this hospital. Bring him here." He came and I said to him: "Take me to your part of the hospital and ask me any question you want to, for I am still me. Jesus came and made me whole again."

The psychiatrist looked at me for a while and then said: "Oh no, I will not examine you, for the One who performed the healing will give you the answers and I will be left there like a fool."

Many things happened in those three days and nights that I was in the hospital. They called my grandson, Tom, and asked him to come to the hospital immediately. He is the one who had been asked to prepare to take care of my body, I was walking down the hall when I saw him coming and called to him: "Look, Tom, look what the Lord has done for me, He came and made me whole again." Someone said to me: "Tom can't hear you, he is in complete shock." They worked on him for hours, when he came to he said: "When I saw you walking is when I went into shock. I never saw you walking before, I remember the grandma who pulled one foot and scraped the other. I remember the one who held to the walls, why didn't they tell me that Jesus had healed you?"

I still wanted to go outside and see the trees. I want to tell you this so that you will see how easy it is to get out of the Lord's will. The Lord told me to stay in the hospital three days and three nights. He did not say anything about going outside. But I still wanted to know what it would be like to breathe the fresh air.

I went outside and stood under one of the trees thinking: "This is just like I thought it would be, wonderful to see the trees and partake of the fresh air." Just then one of the nurses tapped me on the shoulder and said: "What are you doing here? Don't you know that the halls are fun of people wanting to know if you can really walk! When I heard this I knew that I had gone outside thinking only about myself and that I was outside of the will of God. Jesus wanted me to testify to the people.

As I stepped back into the hospital I saw a black man sitting in a wheel chair. As I got near him he asked: "Aren't you the woman that they used to bring to this hospital tied to a wheel chair so she would not fall?" I answered, "Yes I am she." He asked: "Aren't you the woman that used to fallout of bed with spasms?” I said: "Yes, I am she." Again he asked: "Are not you the woman who was blind?" "Yes," I answered, "I am she." He said: "Tell me about your Jesus, for I do not know Him." Oh, what a blessing it is to be in the will of God and be able to guide a soul to Jesus!

One day I was walking down the hall praising God when I saw a man on a stretcher at the door of the operating room. He was ready to be wheeled into the operating room to be operated on. He had witnessed my paralytic condition and when he saw me walking and praising God, he said: "If God can heal Gertrude, He can heal me too." He wrapped the sheet around him, got off the stretcher, went to his room, got dressed and walked right out of the hospital!

Two years later I met that man on the street and asked him if he had signed his dismissal papers and he said, no because Jesus Christ had dismissed him and he did not have to sign any papers. Then I asked him if he ever had that operation and he said: "No, I did not need it." The Lord knew that He was going to accept divine healing at the last moment, so He saw to it that the spinal that they gave him did not take effect: Hallelujah!

Bible Events Take Place

Those three days in the hospital I witnessed what is written in Mark 2:2: " And straightway many were gathered together, insomuch that there was no room to receive them, no, not so much as about the door: and he preached the word unto them." The people filled the halls day and night, even staying until 2 o'clock in the morning for they wanted to see the evidence of God.

In closing I want to tell you about Mr. Martin. He was in charge of us 8 hours a day. When Jesus came to heal me he had his day off, so the following day the Lord said: "Go to Mr. Martin." So I went to Mr. Martin and said: "Mr. Martin, look at me, Jesus came and made me whole again." He did not turn, he had his back to me, but rather said: "You go away woman." And I went away.

Again the Lord said: "Go to Mr. Martin." So I went the second time to him and said: "Mr. Martin, look at me, Jesus came and made me whole again." But Mr. Martin again refused saying: "You go away; I am not going to look at you."

I returned to the people standing in the hall and the third time the Lord said: "Go to Mr. Martin." So I went and this time I said: "Mr. Martin, please look at me, for Jesus has said to me three times: “Go to Mr. Martin and you know how far it is from my place with one hall going this way and one that way, so please look at me."

Then Mr.' Martin turned and said: "Yes, I am going to look at you. When I had my day off was the time you were to have died, that is why I did not want to look at you when you came the first time. When you came the second time I had heard rumors about a miracle of healing. I am a good Catholic and they do not teach me in my church that God can do miracles in my part of the hospital." Mr. Martin did not mind seeing a miracle but he wanted it in a church, he wanted it in a Cathedral. But God wanted it in a hospital so that many would hear the testimony and see the evidence of God.

Mr. Martin said: "When I turn around to see you I will have to admit that Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever. I will have to confess that He works miracles today, even in my section in the hospital." Mr. Martin has now returned to his country, Canada, but he has returned believing that Jesus Christ can do the same miracles that He did when here on this earth.

Once Mr. Martin accepted my healing he said: "Oh, let's do something, let's call your children, let's call that woman who prayed for you, let's do something!" Yes, when we see the reality of God and know that He has visited us we want to do something.

May God bless and use this testimony in the lives of all that read it! Mrs. Gertrude Ticer, P 0 Box 52, Seattle Heights, Wash. 98063

"Jesus said unto him.
If thou canst believe,
All things are possible to him that believeth.”

"And he said unto them,
This kind can come forth by nothing,
But by prayer and fasting"

(Mark 9:23 & 29)


Take no thought for food or raiment; take no thought for wealth or fame,
But seek first our Father’s Kingdom, and His righteousness proclaim,
He will give to you great treasures: grace abounding, joys untold.
Peace that passeth understanding and a faith worth more than gold.

Take no thought for those who scoff you nor for those who try to kill;
For our God is our defender and will hover o’er us still.
He will be our Shield and Buckler; He will banish all our fears;
In His arms He will enfold us and will wipe away our tears.

Take no thought for sinful pleasures; only seek to do His will,
And to follow where He leadeth and His purposes fulfill;
For the Kingdom He hath given---and to ALL who enter in
There is a rest for the weary, freedom from the power of sin.

“Take no thought,” He now entreats you; casting all your cares on Him,
Trust His great unfailing mercy and let not your faith grow dim,
Looking always to the Savior, let Him be your Friend and Guide;
Living daily in His presence, where no evil can betide.

Take no anxious thought for loved ones; they are in His loving care,
And the One who minds the sparrows surely hears and answers prayer.
Take no thought for Life’s Tomorrows; leave the future in His hands;
Hitherto, He has not failed you, for He cares and understands.
Louise L. Gardanier.

This is one of the greatest testimonies
of a Healing Miracle in our day, that I have ever read.
My wife and I have known Mrs. Ticer about seven years.
We have heard her give her testimony a number of times.
Mrs. Ticer lives by Faith! J. A. Dennis

If the Red Sea is before you,
Mountains to the left,
Desert to the right
And the Egyptians are galloping up behind,
Start praising God,
For the situation is ideal ……..
For a miracle! Peter Allard

Reprinted from: THE TEXAS HERALD
October 1971
Order from
P.O. Box 2156, Austin, Texas 78767

 Topic: Tommy Hick's Vision of the Sleeping Giant
Tommy Hick's Vision of the Sleeping Giant [message #1173] Thu, 07 February 2008 18:08
Derick N.  is currently offline Derick N.
Messages: 75
Registered: November 2007
I have this in print, but I remember hearing it on a tape once. I'm thinking it might have been at a Full Gospel Businessman's meeting or maybe before Bro Branham preached. Anywayz I was wondering if anybody had it?
A FRIEND'S TESTIMONY [message #1074] Thu, 20 December 2007 20:33
Messages: 35
Registered: December 2007
Location: Auburn, Alabama


I heard the words. I didn't know where they came from. I didn't know they were Scripture, but I knew they were true. The voice said, “This day thy soul is required of thee.”

It was 1986. I was 30 years old, and my life was wasted. I had been an alcoholic since a teenager. I was also a drug addict. I couldn't function without starting everyday by getting 'high' on marijuana. I had made a few vain attempts at religion, in treatment centers, or to escape troubles with parents or authorities, but always with selfish motives. Being raised in the “Bible-Belt,” I had a smattering of the gospel, but I was never convinced enough to believe that it was anything except modern man's mythology. I often tried to bargain with God, and when He wouldn't meet me on my terms, the devil was always quick to accommodate me.

But the devil always left me with the feeling that one day I would have to pay for his favors. So when I heard this voice, I knew my day of reckoning had come. Since I was so miserable and didn't have anything to lose, it came as somewhat of a relief. I had been living in an old run-down house way out in the country in south Alabama, where I was growing marijuana. Ever so often I would drive to my old hometown, which had a college campus, and sell some “pot,” or just party with old friends.

It was on one of these return trips to south Alabama when I heard the voice say that my soul was required. I was driving a small Honda Civic and decided to drive head-on into the first big 18-wheeler truck that came my way. I felt a “peace” about what I was doing, so firing up another joint (marijuana cigarette), I continued down the county road waiting for my opportunity to escape my miserable life. I hadn't gone but a couple of miles or so, when I looked and saw a little toddler {2 year girl) pushing a toy down the white stripe on the side of the highway. It startled me and I immediately pulled over and went to the child. It was a little girl. I couldn't see a house, and when I tried to ask the little girl some questions, she couldn't talk good enough to put a sentence together. I picked her up and walked back the way she had come, and came to a dirt driveway emerging through a thicket of pine trees. As I turned and walked down the driveway, I heard a man cry out, “Rachel, Rachel, O God, where's Rachel!” I saw him come running from the front of a house on the other side of the pine thicket.
For the first time in my life I felt like I had done something good. I felt like a hero, but God had a different purpose. The man and I met about halfway down the driveway. As we made eye contact, I began trembling. The father of the child was a person I had gone to high school with. He had been one of those “Jesus Freaks,” and had always been witnessing to me about salvation. In return, I always mocked him, or laughed him to scorn. He was always carrying a Bible and took advantage of every opportunity to pray or preach. I had thought he was ridiculous. This time was different. Suddenly I wasn't the hero I thought I was. He recognized me, and said my name as I handed him his child.

He sat the child down, turned, looked me right in the eye and asked, “How is your relationship with Jesus Christ?” I buckled at the knees as I told him, “I don't know Jesus. My life is wasted, and I had just been talking with the devil.” He invited me in his house, but I declined. I told him I had to get back on the road. His last words to me as I turned to leave were, “Before you do anything, try Jesus.”

I staggered back to my car, got in and sped away. I lit another joint but it had no effect. My mind was racing. I tried another joint but still no effect. Jesus was real. Jesus was greater. Jesus rescued me. He was my hero. I was certainly convinced, but I didn't know what to do with it. I was so flabbergasted at what had taken place; the hour and a half trip home seemed like five minutes. I went inside and lay across the bed and buried my head in the pillow. I began to talk to God. I said, “God, I've often called to you for help, and guess you always did, because I'm still alive. But I'm going to quit calling you God, because this man said to try Jesus.” So instead of saying, “God help me,” I cried out, “Jesus, please help me.”

At that instant the Prince of Peace came to me and gently removed my old wicked selfish heart and gave me a new one. He took away all condemnation, and translated me from the power of satan into His kingdom, an everlasting kingdom without end. At that moment I was born again, and when my feet hit the floor, I was walking in newness of life. I hadn't committed suicide that day, but I certainly died. Jesus, my Savior and Deliverer from suicide, was also my Creator, and He made me a new creation-old things passed away. He makes all things new simply because, “Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved”

I love you, Jesus. You're my Lord, my God and my Hero.


[Updated on: Thu, 03 January 2008 20:27]

HAVE YOU RECEIVED THE HOLY SPIRIT SINCE YOU BELIEVED? [message #1057] Sat, 15 December 2007 06:07
Messages: 35
Registered: December 2007
Location: Auburn, Alabama
Many well-meaning Christians insist that there is no "Baptism in the Holy Spirit" subsequent to salvation, or, at the very least, that "speaking in tongues" is not the initial sign of the reception of such an experience, the stress of Acts 19:1-7 seems to indicate otherwise. This passage's description of Paul's encounter with a group of Ephesian disciples, his intriguing question, and their subsequent, life-changing reception of the Holy Spirit, is an invaluable teaching tool for relating the nature of that "second experience" known as the Baptism in the Holy Spirit.

"And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, he said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. And all the men were about twelve" (Acts 19:1-7).

Paul's Puzzling Question

Paul's initial response to these new-born Christians may come as somewhat of a surprise to those schooled in the traditional viewpoint (Mk. 7:9&13: 9 “And he said unto them, Full well ye reject {frustrate} the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.” 13 “Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.”) which holds that every believer receives the Holy Spirit at the time of his conversion --automatically, inevitably, often unconsciously, and usually unceremoniously. In fact, to even broach the question "Have you received the Holy Spirit since you believed?" is considered in some circles a tell-tale token of a faulty theology. For Paul, however, the question was not only legitimate; it was absolutely essential. Unshackled by the theological assumption that every believer has necessarily received the Holy Spirit and evidently detecting some deficiency in their Christian experience which indicated they had not, the discerning Apostle is bold to inquire, "Have ye received the Holy Spirit since ye believed?" (Acts 19:2).

One of the untold tragedies among contemporary evangelicals/fundamentalists is a short-sided theology that refuses to give unbiased attention to the searching, and, might we add, embarrassing (from the standpoint of their theology), implications of Paul's crucial question. Its very existence in the Sacred Text presents an enigma that no amount of theological circumlocution or exegetical acrobatics can adequately explain. The issue is profoundly simple: if Paul believed that every Christian is filled with the Holy Spirit at the time of his or her conversion, the answer to his question of whether they had received the Holy Spirit since their initial belief in the gospel would have been a foregone conclusion. Well might they have answered, "Why, of course Paul, every believer realizes that the Holy Spirit is received automatically the moment he exercises faith in Jesus as the Messiah! Why do you ask?" Paul, however, did not view the answer to his question as self-evident. It was a necessary question, yes, even a crucial one-the answer to which was sure to reveal the status of their spiritual experience. It was, and is, one of those "dangerous" spiritual questions that are sure to raise eyebrows, unnerve the cozy traditionalists, and spawn an interest in investigating an hitherto unexplored realm of Christian experience. As we shall soon see, it is a question which, if honestly considered, could usher you into a new and invigorating dimension of the Christian life. It is, in any event, a question that demands an answer.

Teeming With Implications

The profound nature of Paul's question is seen in the fact that it reflects his understanding -- which, for those who believe in the inspiration of Scripture, is the only reliable one -- of the nature of the believer's reception of the Holy Spirit. Is the reception of the Spirit an optional matter, or is it absolutely essential to empowered Christian living? Do believers automatically receive the Spirit at the moment of their conversion, or is HE received sometime subsequent to salvation? As a rule, is the reception of the Spirit a rather mysterious transaction, or is it an experience of which the believer is definitely conscious? Is the reception of the Holy Spirit to be accompanied by some external token which serves as standard evidence that HE has indeed filled an individual, or is the proof of HIS arrival limited to subjective conviction and/or guesswork? All of these crucial issues are involved in Paul's striking enquiry.

Teeming with implications that we dare not ignore, Acts 19:1-7 portrays the believer's reception of the Holy Spirit as: (1) significant, (2) subsequent to salvation, (3) a supernatural experience of which the believer is definitely conscious and, (4) accompanied by a supernatural sign which signals to observers that the recipient has genuinely received the promised Comforter. It is to a consideration of this four- fold description of the Spirit's reception that we now turn.

A Significant Experience

Isn't it interesting -- and no doubt noteworthy -- that of all the questions Paul could have posed these new born Christians, he chose to ask them, "Have ye received the Holy Spirit since ye believed?" Otherwise appropriate questions such as "Are you bearing the fruit of the Spirit?" or, "How are you progressing in the Christian life?" could have suggested themselves to Paul's mind, but amazingly enough, his supreme objective was to know whether they had received the Holy Spirit. Why?

Is it not because the reception of the Holy Spirit is vitally important to the ongoing work of the Lord in the life of the believer? Indeed, Paul recognized -- as did the entire apostolic church -- that apart from the Holy Spirit's infilling, the believer must of necessity be resigned to a mediocre, albeit Christian, existence, Moreover, he evidently detected that there was a missing element in the experience of these fledgling saints and so, out of concern for their souls, posed the pertinent question, "Have ye received the Holy Spirit since ye believed?" (Acts 19:2) So significant was the reception of the Spirit in his eyes, that he could not avoid broaching such a personal question. He no doubt knew that Jesus had identified the Holy Spirit as the believer's power Source, when, in one of Jesus’ post-resurrection appearances (Acts 1:8), He said "But ye shall receive power after that the Holy Spirit is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me,..." Paul also knew that apart from the infilling of the Holy Spirit these newborn believers would prove woefully ineffective in the fierce struggle that is the Christian life (Hebrews 12:4 “Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.” Ephesians 6:12 “For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.”) How were they to consistently "walk in the Spirit" (Galatians 5:16 “This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and {fulfil not} ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.”) be "led by the Spirit" (Galatians 5:18 “But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.”), "pray in the Spirit," (1 Corinthians 14:15 “What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.” or yield to the Spirit in the all important mortification of the deeds of the body (Romans 8:13 “For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.”), unless they had first of all received HIS charismatic presence within?

Realizing that the reception of the Spirit was essential to their spiritual development, he was anxious to know whether they had received the Blessed Comforter (John 14:16 “And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever”).

Paul's penetrating evaluation of the Ephesian situation has implications for today. If, from the portals of New Jerusalem, Paul were permitted a glimpse of the alarming impotence that characterizes the twentieth century church, would he not suspect, as was the case with the Ephesian disciples, a missing element in its spiritual experience? As the spectacle of rampant divorce (except it be for the cause of fornication [Matthew 5:32 “But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.” 19:9 “And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.”]) and remarriage, powerless preaching, creeping lukewarmness and evident worldliness met his eye, might he not well ask, as he did of old, "Have ye received the Holy Spirit since ye believed?"

It is painfully obvious to the perceptive observer that the church of our day is suffering severely from a serious power shortage. Unable to minister effectively to the spiritual needs of its members, it has become, more or less, content with the role of a referral agency. When members are stricken with some debilitating disease, the church may be quick to refer them to a leading medical specialist, but it too often finds itself woefully unable to offer the "prayer of faith" which will -- according to Scripture -- without fail heal the sick (James 5:14,15 “Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.”). Or is it a question of some mental disorder? Here again, the church, just like the world (contrast to Rom. 12:1&2 “I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.”), franticly seeks to enlist the assistance of secular psychology and psychiatry, rather than casting out the unclean spirits of depression in the power of the Holy Spirit (Mark 16:17 “And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;” Matthew 12:28 “But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.”)! The church -- in many quarters at least -- can no longer say with the Apostle Peter, as he spake to the lame man at the gate called Beautiful, "Silver and gold have I none, but, such as I have, give I thee. In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk" (Acts 3:6). The reason for this is as simple as it is sad: many in the church no longer have what the early church considered absolutely essential -- a supernatural infilling with the Holy Spirit. (Acts 2:4 “And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.”)

Subsequent To Salvation

Another significant issue raised by Paul's probing question is the all important matter of when one actually receives the Holy Spirit-whether at the time of, or subsequent to salvation. While many well-meaning Christians insist that the Holy Spirit is inevitably received at the time of one's conversion,

C. I. Scofield is representative of this view, when he says in a footnote to this passage: "Both passages [alluding to Acts 1:8 “But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.” and 19:2 “He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.”] could not be stronger in indicating that the Spirit was given at the time of believing; The New Scofield Study Bible (New York: Oxford University Press), 1192.

the grammatical construction of Paul's question indicates otherwise. The original Greek of his query may be accurately translated, "After that ye believed [or, 'having believed'] did ye receive the Holy Spirit?" Crucial to the proper interpretation of this text is an accurate understanding of the time-sequence denoted by the Aorist Participle. C. F. D. Moule, in his book, An Idiom Book of New Testament Greek, 2nd edition. (London: Cambridge University Press), p. 99, cites the general rule for translating the Greek Aorist Participle when he writes:

"When the context positively demands a decision as to the sequence of the actions referred to in the participle and the main verb respectively, it often turns out that a Present Participle alludes to an action with which the action of the main verb coincides (at least in part), while the Aorist participle refers to action previous to what is referred to in the main verb " [italics mine].

Machen also concurs with this rule for translating the Aorist Participle. He concludes: “... The aorist participle denotes action prior to the action denoted by the leading verb, whether the action denoted by the leading verb is past, present or future." Gresham Machen, New Testament Greek For Beginners (Toronto, Canada: The Macmillan Company), pp. 116-117. Though the aorist participle can at times signify action coincident to that of the main verb, the general rule justifies the King James Version translator’s understanding of the time sequence.

The verdict of such authorities can lead to but one conclusion: The King James Version translators were correct in understanding the time sequence of Paul's question as being first, believe, and then, receive the Holy Spirit. This in turn can only mean that the Apostle Paul conceived of the reception of the Holy Spirit as occurring subsequent to salvation. Nor is this the only place in Scripture where they believe on Jesus first/then receive the Holy Spirit sequence is to be found. Acts 8:5-17 “5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them. 6 And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did. 7 For unclean spirits, crying with loud voice, came out of many that were possessed with them: and many taken with palsies, and that were lame, were healed.
8 And there was great joy in that city. 9 But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one: 10 To whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, This man is the great power of God.
11 And to him they had regard, because that of long time he had bewitched them with sorceries. 12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. 13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs {Gr. signs and great miracles} which were done. 14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: 15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: 16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) 17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.” is equally clear in its teaching that the reception of the Spirit is an experience quite distinct from salvation (cf. v. 16, which, in direct reference to previously saved and water-baptized believers, says: 'For as yet he [the Holy Spirit] was fallen upon none of them...'). In addition, Ephesians 1:13 is highly instructive, especially in view of its correspondence with the experience of the Ephesian disciples, whose reception of the Spirit has been the subject of our discussion. There we read, "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise." "After that ye believed"! Clearer evidence could scarcely be found; may it serve to convince the unbiased reader of a valid reception of the Holy Spirit subsequent to salvation.

A Conscious Experience

When Paul asked the thought-provoking question, "Have ye received the Holy Spirit since ye believed?" he obviously expected his listeners to be fully aware of whether they had received the Spirit's indwelling presence. That is to say, he understood the reception of the Spirit to be a personal experience of which the believer is vividly conscious. If they had received the Spirit they would know it: and the very fact that they did not know it (verse 2b - 'We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Spirit') served to prove that they had not. Thus, the very wording of his question implies that for Paul the reception of the Spirit was a supernatural, personal occurrence of which the recipient was acutely aware. This is the only rational explanation for the form of Paul's question; it is, moreover, the only view that harmonizes with the body of Biblical evidence which strongly suggests that, for the New Testament believer, the reception of the Spirit was a conscious experience. How else are we to understand such references as 1 John 3:24b- “And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us" -or, Galatians 3:2- "... Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?" Plainly, they imply (as does Paul's question in Acts 19:2a “He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed?”) that the reception of the Spirit is a definite experience to which believers can consciously relate.

A Sign-Attested Experience

In response to the Ephesians’ apparent ignorance of the need of receiving the Spirit after their initial belief, Paul proceeded to lay hands upon them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. Immediately the Spirit came upon them, announcing His arrival with a charismatic display of tongues and prophecy (Acts 19:6 “And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.”). Indeed, in every account in the Book of Acts where we are told what actually happened when believers received the Spirit speaking in tongues is the common feature. (Acts 2:4 “And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.”; 10:44-46 “While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,” 19:6 “And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.”), It was the display of tongues that soundly convinced the Jewish believers who accompanied Peter to Cornelius' household that this Gentile gathering had genuinely received the Holy Spirit. They judged by what they heard; and what they heard was tongues- “for they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God" (Acts 10:46). Though often despised today, it was this selfsame, supernatural token that announced the indwelling presence of the Spirit among the 120 in the upper room (Acts 2:4 “And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.”), and which was identified by our Lord Himself as one of the signs which are to follow believers (Mark. 16:17 “And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;”).

Are you a believer? Are you conscious of a reception of the Spirit accompanied by the sign of tongues? If not - why not?

For More information Contact:
Sandhill Bible Church,
4505 Sandhill Road.
Auburn. AL 36830


[Updated on: Thu, 03 January 2008 20:27]

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