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Forum: Bible Issues
 Topic: Thought for Today
Thought for Today [message #239] Tue, 11 April 2006 14:43
william  is currently offline william
Messages: 1198
Registered: January 2006
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I ran across an article that has some merit. The full article can be seen here:

The article categorizes three types of Christians:

1. restless experientialists
2. entrenched intellectualists
3. disaffected deviationists

The first the "restless experientialists" are those who constantly seek out the next great experience. (We call them the charismania crowd.)

Tozer speaks of this group in this quote:


The temptation to forget the few spiritual essentials and to go wandering off after unimportant things is very strong, especially to Christians of a certain curious type of mind. Such persons find the great majors of the faith of our fathers altogether too tame for them. Their souls loathe that light bread; their appetites crave the gamy tang of fresh-killed meat. They take great pride in their reputation as being mighty hunters before the Lord, and any time we look out we may see them returning from the chase with some new mystery hanging limply over their shoulder.Usually the game they bring down is something on which there is a biblical closed season. Some vague hint in the Scriptures, some obscure verse about which the translators disagree, some marginal note for which there is not much scholarly authority: these are their favorite meat. They are especially skillful at propounding notions which have never been a part of the Christian heritage of truth. Their enthusiasm mounts with the uncertainty of their position, and their dogmatism grows firmer in proportion to the mystery which surrounds their subject. A.W. Tozer

Of course some in this crowd don't even need an obscure text to "hang their experience" on but just because the experience happens in a Christian context the experience is validated. No discernment whatsoever. The article describes this group as those who are always


"grasping after novelties, entertainments, and 'highs', and of valuing strong feelings above deep thoughts."

Further the article states:


" They conceive the Christian life as one of exciting extraordinary experiences rather than of resolute rational righteousness. They well continually on the themes of joy, peace, happiness, satisfaction and rest of souls with no balancing reference to the divine discontent of Romans 7, the fight of faith of Psalm 73, or the 'lows' of Psalms 42, 88, and 102."

The second group, the entrenched intellectualists comes frightenly close to describing our experience at Faith Assembly. Not that I'm in any way shape or form intellectually inclined (more intellectually challenged than I like to admit!)

This group is described in this way:


(the entrenched intellectualists)... not so common as the previous type. Some of them seem to be victims of an insecure temperament and inferiority feelings, others to be reacting out of pride or pain against the zaniness of experientialism as they have perceived it, but whatever the source of their syndrome the behavior-pattern in which they express it is distinctive and characteristic. Constantly they present themselves as rigid, argumentative, critical Christians, champions of God's truth for whom orthodoxy is all. Upholding and defending their own view of that truth... ... and they invest themselves unstintingly in this task.

I'm not implying that this was the experience of all or even most but some of the above certainly applies to my experience.

The last group (don't you just love to label people?<grin>) the "disaffected deviationist" is described like this in the article:

I turn finally to those whom I call disaffected deviationists, the casualties and dropouts of the modern evangelical movement, many of whom have now turned against it to denounce it as a neurotic perversion of Christianity. Here, too, is a breed that we know all too well. It is distressing to think of these folk, both because their experience to date discredits our evangelicalism so deeply and also because there are so many of them. Who are they? They are people who once saw themselves as evangelicals, either from being evangelically nurtured or from coming to profess conversion with the evangelical sphere of influence, but who have become disillusioned about the evangelical point of view and have turned their back on it, feeling that it let them down.

The article specifically is referring to the class of people known as "evangelicals" but it seems to loosely apply to those with whom we have to do.

Thoughts anyone?


[Updated on: Tue, 11 April 2006 14:45]

I want to believe!
 Topic: Pottery--Marred or Ruined
Pottery--Marred or Ruined [message #203] Wed, 22 March 2006 13:33
william  is currently offline william
Messages: 1198
Registered: January 2006
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When I first became a Christian the Lord allowed me to see something that was very profound to my 18 year old mind. It really isn't too profound but it was to me because it was the very first time that I was conscious of the Lord opening my mind.

I was reading Jeremiah 18 (you can read the whole chapter but I'll give the highlight here:


Jer 18:1 The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,

Jer 18:2 Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words.

Jer 18:3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make [it].

Jer 18:5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,

Jer 18:6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay [is] in the potter's hand, so [are] ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.

I kept reading and got to the next chapter of Jeremiah:


Jer 19:1 Thus saith the LORD, Go and get a potter's earthen bottle, and [take] of the ancients of the people, and of the ancients of the priests;

Jer 19:2 And go forth unto the valley of the son of Hinnom, which [is] by the entry of the east gate, and proclaim there the words that I shall tell thee,

Jer 19:3 And say, Hear ye the word of the LORD, O kings of Judah, and inhabitants of Jerusalem; Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring evil upon this place, the which whosoever heareth, his ears shall tingle.

Jer 19:4 Because they have forsaken me, and have estranged this place, and have burned incense in it unto other gods, whom neither they nor their fathers have known, nor the kings of Judah, and have filled this place with the blood of innocents;

Jer 19:5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire [for] burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake [it], neither came [it] into my mind:

Jer 19:6 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that this place shall no more be called Tophet, nor The valley of the son of Hinnom, but The valley of slaughter.

Jer 19:7 And I will make void the counsel of Judah and Jerusalem in this place; and I will cause them to fall by the sword before their enemies, and by the hands of them that seek their lives: and their carcases will I give to be meat for the fowls of the heaven, and for the beasts of the earth.

Jer 19:8 And I will make this city desolate, and an hissing; every one that passeth thereby shall be astonished and hiss because of all the plagues thereof.

Jer 19:9 And I will cause them to eat the flesh of their sons and the flesh of their daughters, and they shall eat every one the flesh of his friend in the siege and straitness, wherewith their enemies, and they that seek their lives, shall straiten them.

Jer 19:10 Then shalt thou break the bottle in the sight of the men that go with thee,

Jer 19:11 And shalt say unto them, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Even so will I break this people and this city, as [one] breaketh a potter's vessel, that cannot be made whole again: and they shall bury [them] in Tophet, till [there be] no place to bury.


Jer 19:15 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring upon this city and upon all her towns all the evil that I have pronounced against it, because they have hardened their necks, that they might not hear my words.

The thing that struck me was that the first vessel (Jer 18) being formed became marred in the hand of the potter and the potter kept working with it and made it into something else.

The second vessel (Jer 19) was already in a finished state and there was nothing to do but break it.

Israel was God's chosen people just as we are. Israel had the Word of God just as we do. Yet there is a point when the potter puts the vessel to the heat and it becomes set... it cannot be changed at that point. If it is flawed the only thing you can do with it is break it. On the other hand, the vessel that becomes marred while still in an unfinished state can be re-molded and useful.

I'd like to think that we are still in that state where the Lord can still mold us and make us into something useful. I fear that there are those who fit the other category and can only be broken.

I'm sure there are a lot of other aspects of the prophesy that can be mined but this aspect has always stuck with me.

It certainly applies to some of our experiences.


P.S. I know brother Freeman did a series on Jeremiah!

I want to believe!
 Topic: Ravenhill's Last Message -- WoW
Ravenhill's Last Message -- WoW [message #33] Tue, 07 February 2006 11:53
william  is currently offline william
Messages: 1198
Registered: January 2006
Senior Member
What is your vision?
From Leonard Ravenhill’s last meeting, a prayer meeting for ministers at Calvary Commission. Sept. 14, 1994.

We are going to look at what Paul had to say about ministry, in 2 Corinthians 6:3-8
Giving no offense in anything, that the ministry may not be blamed. But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses, in stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labors, in watchings, in fastings, by pureness, by knowledge, by longsuffering, by kindness, by the Holy ghost, by love unfeigned, by the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left, by honour and dishonour, by evil report and good report; as deceivers, and yet true...

This word may not seem very relevant to us, but I don't let one day go by that I don't pray for my oppressed brother in Bosnia. I saw on the news this morning of a new wave of persecution there. How many young men have died there in the last two or three years - died a martyrs death?

How easy it is to sit and clap our hands and tap our feet and sing, "My hope is built on nothing less than Jesus blood and righteousness..." But, what about when you come to the third stanza?
When all around my soul gives way
When your whole life... your wife is raped in front of your eyes... you have no life... no church... everything goes ... you are dragged through the town. That is what is happening over there this very hour as we are here. I don't think we value our privileges as we ought. Paul talks about redeeming the time, buying back the opportunity. Of the things we waste, we certainly waste time. The word that has been very much on my mind these past two or three weeks is in Ephesians.

Ephesians 2:7 "But in the ages to come ... "
How often do we preach on that? I think there is a danger of something I call "The Peril of the Immediate." We are living in the framework of the immediate. We live there as much as other men. We are not supposed to. We are to live as men branded for eternity.
"In the ages to come... "
Look at Elijah. Elijah was told to hide in the cave. He goes in there for three whole years! Most of us can't stand three hours without turning on a radio or TV. Try three days, try three weeks, cutting yourself off from everything external, everything worldly that has been labeled and poisoned by the world systems. We need to think and get things straight.

Hebrews 11 tells me Moses endured as seeing Him who is invisible.
Paul tells us the things that are seen are temporal and the things that are unseen are eternal. We need to be careful of living in the visible all the time. Visible values, the durability of things that are only for time.
Think of Moses when he was on the backside of the desert, not for four days, not forty days, but forty years - one third of his life! There was a price on his head after having been kicked out of the greatest royal family in the world. He no longer had seven course meals. He lived on the back side of the desert. Do you think he ever thought that one day he would stand on the Mount of Transfiguration with Jesus and Elijah? He endured as seeing Him who is invisible – Christ. And what did he do? He considered the reproach of Christ – not the Kingdom of Christ – the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures of Egypt.
Did he see Him coming in the clouds?
Did he ever see by faith that he would stand on the Mt. of Transfiguration?
Did he go further, to the end of the age when a multitude which no man can
number out of every kindred, tribe and tongue would sing the song of
Moses and of the Lamb?

We live too much in this world. We're earthbound. How many of us know someone who is eternity conscious? What America needs is somebody who will go through every church in the country and preach for a week on eternity:
Preach one day on the Judgment Seat of Christ.
Preach one day on the Judgment of believers.
Preach one day on the Marriage Supper of the Lamb.
Again, I've told you before,
I don't just want to go to heaven,
I want to go to the marriage supper of the Lamb,
I don't just want to go to the marriage supper,
I want to be part of the Bride.

The last word of Jesus was not "Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel" - that was for the eleven disciples.
The last word of Jesus is in Revelations: Repent, repent, repent.
What is Jesus coming for? A bride.
The Word of God says He is coming for a bride without spot or wrinkle or any such thing.
Do you think the church is that today?
What does Jesus say about the church?
That she is poor, wretched, naked, blind and pitiful.

A while ago I went to a wedding of a millionaire's daughter. As the bride came down the aisle it was just as though a voice said to me, "look." I looked at her. She was beautifully dressed, very educated, quite brilliant. As I looked at her coming down the aisle, I thought, "Is Jesus Christ coming for a bride who is poor and wretched? If I was an artist I would paint the bride on a crutch, one leg almost withered, wearing rags, the other garments looking scruffy like a woman off the streets. Poor, wretched, naked, blind and pitiful – so something has to happen to the church before the Lord Jesus returns!"
One fact should be already decided in our hearts and that is to live with cruelty towards our lives, and abasement of our lives in this present evil world.
What about Elijah? He goes into a cave for three years - three years is a pretty good long time isn't it? He did it.
It says in I Kings 17, "go hide thyself."
It says in I Kings 18, "go show thyself."
One minute he's found before a king,
later he dares to stand before the Israelites...

A man who is intimate with God, is never intimidated by man.
The fear of man goes out entirely.

I certainly believe with all my heart we are not eternity conscious, we live for the everyday. We ought to live with eternity’s values in view. Those people were excited - and us?
We have labored for Christ,
we have labored with Christ,
one day we are going to see Him.
As the hymn writer said,
"Face to face with Christ my Savior,
face to face what will it be ,
when with rapture I behold Him..."

Who would be delighted right now to go and stand before the King? You will have to answer for all your preaching…Very often we take a text and drown it in words…

I woke up this morning about three o'clock thinking about that.
I've been preaching for over 70 years.
Take 120 words times 60 minutes, times 60 times a year,
times 70 years... and I have to give an account to God for all those words.
The more I read the Word of God the more it pierces my heart. It makes me stop and think and meditate. I meditate now more on eternity than I ever have in all my life. Our people are not eternity conscious. Do you think a person who is ready for eternity would miss a prayer meeting? I don't know of anywhere on Earth where there is more freedom than in a prayer meeting where God anoints those who pray and you almost, as it were, rub shoulders with God.

Again I say, when Ahab was breathing down the neck of Elijah, and Jezebel was digging a pit for his feet, do you ever think he thought for a moment he'd stand on the Mountain of Transfiguration with Moses and Jesus?
Apparently Moses could see through the space in time... he could see and he endured. "He chose to suffer."

Suppose you were a twenty year old or a thirty year old in Bosnia or one of these other countries today. You wouldn't have a home to go home to.

Some of these young men today come into my office and say,
"These are wonderful days to be alive".
Sure they are - you go from an air conditioned home,
to an air conditioned car, to an air conditioned church,
where you collect a copious offering and go home to rejoice in the Lord.
What about those who get nothing?
Paul gets to a place where he says, "I have nothing, yet I possess all things." Paul goes through all sorts of cleansing. He did not end up in Romans 7 "it is sin that dwelleth in me." He ended up in Galatians 2:20, "Not I, but Christ liveth in me." That is the ultimate in the Christian life. I don't care how many tongues we have or how many miracles we were able to perform. The word of God says again, "Christ liveth in me." The life I now live in this mortal body is Christ controlled.

People say that in the Old Testament Christ was with them but not in them. But Peter doesn't say that! Christ was in them. Do you think a man could go and pray and say on behalf of the rotten nation he lived in, "Lord kill me," again, he also says, "Take my life. I don't care. I'm not bothered by living."

I want to be so God possessed.
Of course, some say that's fanaticism.

People get weary of hearing about all the trouble in Bosnia
but they can't wait to hear what is going on with the baseball strike.
And I'm talking about men in ministry, I mean preachers.
They rush out from church Sunday morning for home and go watch
baseball or football.
So they are trying to serve two masters.
No man can do that; you can only serve one master.
The more I read this word I find Christ didn't come to just take me to the cross - as Paul says in Romans 6, you can be crucified with Him. But I think the most amazing thing Jesus said is, "The prince of this world cometh and findeth nothing in Me." He wastes his time tempting Jesus!
He had come through forty days of relentless temptation and trials, after that He was put out of the synagogue, and after that He is being put out all the time.
He was born outside - we sing, "Jesus was born in a manger".
He was buried outside - because He would defile the city it if they buried Him
He is still outside - the church.
Isn't it amazing? In the book of Revelation Jesus is still outside the church standing and knocking, trying to get in. How many churches would He have to say that of today?

We must allow God to be in complete control of us with no ambitions of our own, with no concern but to glorify the Father. There's not much time left. As I said last night, "Believer, we are not in the last days - we are in the last of the last days! In Hebrews 1 it says, "God, Who in sundry times and in divers manners spake, hath in these last days spoken by His Son…" that was 2,000 years ago. As for reading the Book of Revelations, it speaks of things that will shortly come to pass. Dr. Tozer used to say to me very often that we were in the last chapter of Revelations.

More and more and more we should be the light in this dark world. You may not know what a wonderful privilege you have of being an example to young men.
Show them
you’re not tied up with money,
you’re not tied up with position,
you’re not tied up trying to be the best preacher in your
Live close to God day by day.
"The Spirit beareth witness."
John Wesley preached on that more than anyone else. I've never heard anyone preach on Romans 8:16, "the Spirit beareth witness with our spirit." In the Acts of the apostles it says the same thing: We're witnesses, so is the Holy Ghost.
We don't need outward acknowledgments. We don't need outward labels.
When I think of what it means in Jude, "Praying in the Holy Ghost," it means more than just tongues, it means the Holy Ghost running in me. If I'm filled with the Holy Ghost then what grieves the Holy Ghost will grieve me. It's not all joy and excitement.

Did the disciples ask the Lord "teach us to preach"? No. They heard the sermon on the mount, the greatest sermon ever preached birthed but
They never said, "Lord teach us to preach."
Jesus sang a hymn and went into Gethsemene, I think He sang often, but
They never said, "Lord teach us to sing."
They never said, "Lord teach us to laugh." No. They said,


If I could go back in time, I think I would spend more time in the Word of God and getting into the depths of the lives of men like Praying Hyde. I was told of a man whose friend prayed with Praying Hyde. He said, "I was in India for a convention and I asked for the privilege of praying with Praying Hyde. John Hyde said, ‘I will be praying tomorrow morning.’ As I went in to pray it was nine in the morning. Then someone knocked on the door and I thought, ‘You just get praying and someone interrupts.’ Then there was another knock at the door. I didn't move, Praying Hyde didn't move. Then someone opened the door and said, ‘It’s a quarter to three and you preach at three.’ I had been on my knees from nine in the morning to three in the afternoon and didn't even know where the time had gone! It was an awesome experience listening to this man pour his heart out in prayer."
I'm not saying everyone gets to that level - but I believe the greatest thing we can do is pray. Every time I pray, I don't want God to make me popular, I don't want to have the biggest church in town. - Jesus never had the fastest growing church, in fact His church went down and down until one day there were only eleven and He said, "Will you go away also?" - I don't think we should pray for God to take people out, I'm saying this, you ought to get near to the heart of God.

I trust that God will give you that privilege of travail
that very few people have had.
Paul had it. I don't think a day goes by that I don't think of Paul travailing in birth. Look at his theological background. Look at the epistle to the Romans, look at his epistle to the Ephesians and yet with all that he is still craving that he may get near to the heart of God. "I could wish myself accursed... my own death." I don't think you have to die a martyr's death to be a martyr.
You can be a living sacrifice,
you can die to advantages,
you can die to temptations,
you can die to privileges,
you can die to all those things that don't add to spiritual life, that don't add to spiritual vision, that don't add to spiritual understanding.
When God works in me, He is so altogether different from the theological concept I once had...

Don't live in the immediate. Remember, Moses saw Jesus in the distance.

I see Jesus coming to rule on the Earth. Not to die, not to be pushed around, but He's coming to rule the Earth. The Word of God says at least some will reign with Him. Who? Who reigns with Him?
The overcomers,
overcoming temptation,
overcoming the world,
overcoming our own desires,
being completely God controlled.

I thank God for what He has done in my life. He hasn't stopped and He won't stop. The Word of God say, "We shall all appear before the Judgment Seat of Christ." And, "Will not the Judge of all the Earth do right? " That is going to be awful, but if I didn't believe that I think I would go insane.
Who is going to account for all the bloody massacre in Rwanda today?
All the wars of the Earth,
all the Generals, the Kings of England the Presidents of the United
States, are going to stand before God.
When He takes all the masks off and uncovers everything.
Everybody - every preacher will stand before the God.
This is the final reckoning day, I want to live with eternity’s values in view.
If we judge ourselves in the light of God's Word we need not fear the
If we walk in the light as He is in the light... that's all He asks of us, to walk
in the light.
And this is what I desire:
That you would get more vision than I've ever had.
More power than I've ever had.
More understanding than I've ever had.

God help us. This is the most difficult period in human history. Never have there been so many nations upside down. The World is like a ship caught in a storm:
it has no anchor,
it has no compass,
it has no chart.
I believe, brethren, you will live to see many from Washington begging the Church of Jesus Christ to bring deliverance. They have ignored it, laughed at it, they have scorned it, but they will come to a place they are so politically helpless, so financially helpless, so morally helpless they will have to call on God. He is the only sure answer.

One thought that amazes as I study the life of Noah is that there is no mention of his prayer life. But when I come to Ezekiel 14, the three most righteous men that ever lived, Noah is one of them, Job another and Daniel. What awesome prayers they offered, but there will come a time when God won't listen to you anymore.

One fellow said, "I just finished three years in Seminary." I asked him,
"Did anyone ever preach a sermon on eternity?"... "No."
"Did you ever hear a sermon on the judgment seat of Christ?"... "No."
"Did anyone preach a sermon on "The Bride of Christ?"... "No."
The man burst into tears. I said,
"In God's name, why do you go to seminary? To learn how to bury the dead?"
There is an eternity in front of us! There is a world that now is in more rebellion than ever! "As in the days of Noah" they rebelled against God. For 100 years Noah never preached a new message, he preached repentance, he preached righteousness. Alexander White used to say, "You can preach divine healing, you can preach prophecy, you can preach anything, but you can't preach righteousness; people won't have it."

I still hope God will pour out His Spirit on all flesh. Let Him pour out His Spirit, not our man-made thing. We laugh and watch TV all night. When the burden of the Holy Ghost takes hold of you, you taste what happens in revival. I think revival preaching is open heart surgery. The other preaching isn't a semblance of the message.

I'm trying to say that as bad as it is, and we are living in the most critical hour in human history, God hasn't given up. He's still not willing that any should perish. He still loves men and women. I want to be in that place where I can bear the birth pains.

For years I finished every night of prayer meeting the same way. I would say, "O Lord, don't say to me on that great day, ‘Ravenhill, I had many things to say to you but you could not bear them.’" You don't tell your family secrets to your little children. You want to talk to someone who understands.


COPYRIGHT/REPRODUCTION LIMITATIONS: This data file is the sole property of Leonard Ravenhill. It may not be altered or edited in any way. It may be reproduced only in its entirety for circulation as "freeware," without charge. All reproductions of this data file must contain the copyright notice (i.e., "Copyright (C) 1994 by Leonard Ravenhill."). This data file may not be used without the permission of Leonard Ravenhill for resale or the enhancement of any other product sold. This includes all of its content with the exception of a few brief quotations. Please give the following source credit: Copyright (C) 1994 by Leonard Ravenhill, Lindale Texas -

I want to believe!
 Topic: Multiple "heads" or one Pastor
Multiple "heads" or one Pastor [message #14] Wed, 01 February 2006 00:01
william  is currently offline william
Messages: 1198
Registered: January 2006
Senior Member
We found ourselves, during our wanderings, in a church that believed that the concept of one "head" pastor was not biblical. They believed in a multiple elder type of leadership and i was prompted to do a study--so here it is:

I. God's design in the beginning

A. Adam, Eve and the divine order

In the beginning God... with these words we see that it doesn't matter who has been delegated with authority, God is the one ultimately in charge, whether we are talking about Israel and her kings, or the Church and its shepherds.

Adam, in Gen. 2-3, was given the responsibility to lead and teach those who had been placed under his charge, and he was given a helper that would assist him in this mission. I believe that this is the established order that God intended throughout history. God-Man(one leader)-Woman(helper)-Children(our charge... the flock!)

As the family structure grew this basic pattern never changed, the head of the household remained the leader.

B. Noah leads the way

Noah was obviously the leader of his household and was able to lead and protect those under his charge. Gen 6-7

Like Adam, Noah wasn't perfect in his responsibilities (Gen 9)yet God doesn't stray from His original design of headship.
C. Abraham, Father of a multitude

The life of Abraham continues to reflect God's original design of headship. He becomes the "father" of the nation of Israel. We also enter into the blessings of Abraham through faith. Gal.3:7

Like those before, Abraham wasn't perfect in his leadership, yet God never invalidates the pattern that He established from the beginning.

D. Jacob and Esau

With Jacob and Esau, God introduces a slight variation on the concept of headship. Headship will now be enlarged to include more than the immediate family. This was hinted at in Gen 9:25-27 with reference to Noah's sons.

Jacob receives the blessing from Isaac that said..."Let people serve thee, and nations bow down to thee: be lord [ruler] over thy brethren..." Gen 27:29.

God continues to show through the pages of Scripture His design with regards to headship.

E. Israel becomes a nation

Jacob/Israel begat twelve children that were destined to become the twelve tribes of Israel

Gen 49:8 shows that Judah ultimately would have the leadership mantle.

The headship pattern was up until this point mostly limited to the family structure, but as the nation grew it became apparent that there would be a need to expand (not change) the leadership structure.

II. God's design for the nation of Israel

A. Moses, chosen by God to lead the nation of Israel

Moses became the central leader of the young nation of Israel. Moses exemplifies a leader that welded much power (some estimates say he ruled over 3 million!) yet he was known as the meekest man on earth at that time! (Num.12:3) How's that for a godly example to follow! Each family had its leaders, each tribe had its leaders but Moses was the central leader. With such a large nation to lead it was obvious that he couldn't lead effectively without help so he appointed "helpers" to judge the nation. Ex 18:17-26

B. Joshua, leader by example Josh.24:15

When it was time for Moses to move on, God instructed Moses to pass the mantle of authority to Joshua, who had been preparing for leadership by being a servant of Moses. Num. 27:18 Joshua became the recognized leader of the nation even though the nation still maintained the same pattern that God had established and expanded through the leadership of Moses. Josh. 24:1f

C. No central leader equals chaos

When Joshua passes from the scene the elders that were alive during his leadership continue leading the people until they also pass from the scene. A leadership vacuum results and Israel forsakes the Lord and falls under the Lord's judgment.

D. Judges

At this time, God begins to raise up judges to rule His nation, and a clear pattern emerges; Israel flourishes during the leadership of the judge but when the judge dies, they backslide once again. Jud. 2:16-19

III. God's design during the time of the kings

It has been stated that God never intended for the nation of Israel to have a king, I agree with this, but it is obvious that He did intend for the people to have a leader that would lead them in the ways of righteousness. Why else did He raise up Moses, Joshua, and the judges? I contend that He has shown clearly from the beginning the pattern of leadership.

Certainly He chose David's leadership to be a type of His own leadership over the nation of Israel. One leader, with many helpers, was the pattern throughout the time of the kings.

A. Saul

Saul was chosen as the King over the nation and while his reign left much to be desired, God didn't change the structure that He had ordained from the beginning. Even after it became obvious that Saul had abdicated his responsibility in leading the nation in a godly manner, he remained the recognized central leader. David would not usurp the office of the king even though Saul's leadership was detrimental to the nation.

B. David, kingdom patterned after the heavenly

Throughout the Scriptures, David and his leadership has been likened to that of Christ's reign over the earth. He certainly wasn't a perfect leader, but his heart was toward the Lord and the resulting prosperity that sprang from this godly reign should teach us the potential of true God-ordained leadership.

C. Solomon, leadership gone awry

Solomon reaped the benefits of his father's reign, but because of a misuse of the power of leadership he was doomed to have part of the kingdom torn from his leadership and given to another. From this point until the Babylonian captivity, the nations of Israel and Judah were on a fast track to destruction. Here we begin to see the fruits of "bad" leadership. However, even during this period when it seemed that a new pattern of leadership was in order, God did not change the design that He had instituted at the beginning.

IV. God's design during the time of Babylonian captivity

After many years of backsliding and repeated warnings of judgment, both Israel and Judah were put under the rule of the Babylonians. Their temple was destroyed and they were led away from the land that the Lord had given to them. They became a nation without direction and were it not for the few godly prophets that prophesied during this time, they would have been completely without direction.

It seems that it was during this time period that the Synagogues came into existence. The Synagogue was their only link to their glorious heritage. It offered them a chance to maintain their religion while under the rule of the Babylonians and teach the next generation the tenets of their faith. Interestingly enough, they chose to maintain the same structure of leadership that had prevailed throughout their history... a single leader for each Synagogue. Acts 18:8,17

V. God's design during the time of Ezra-Nehemiah

After the Babylonian captivity, God once again raises up an individual to lead his people back into the land of their inheritance, first Ezra, and then Nehemiah. Apparently God intended that the leadership structure of one central leader would continue to prevail, albeit without the baggage of a king!

VI. God's design during the Roman period

During this period of Roman rule the Synagogues remained the central pillar of Jewish life, even though the temple had been rebuilt and the order of worship had been restored. Leadership was never by committee although a godly leader will always listen to council from other godly sources. It was at this time that Jesus came on the scene and established His Church

VII. God's design for the church age

We know that there were radical changes that took place when Jesus established his Church, however, the model that had served from the beginning was nowhere rejected. It would seem that if Jesus had wanted to change the headship pattern that had prevailed from the beginning there would have been a statement to announce this major departure from the norm. Instead we see that even among the twelve there clearly was a delineation between some of the apostles. Peter, James and John emerge as the apostles who were chosen to have additional leadership responsibilities. Mk 9 & 14. Among this inner circle Jesus singled out Peter with the charge to feed His flock in Jn 21:15f. Peter was also given the "keys" to open the door to the Jews on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2) as well as the Gentiles in Acts 10. We see Peter leading in the selection of a replacement for Judas in Acts 1:15.

In discussing leadership with the Apostles in MK 10, Jesus made it clear that those who would exercise leadership in His Church, would be those who had the capacity for servanthood. It would not be those who had the most strength and power, or those who battled their way to the top!

Peter was recognized as leader of the twelve even though he became subordinate to the leadership in the Jerusalem assembly (which was led by another single individual).

The Jerusalem assembly was led not by an apostle but by James the brother of Jesus. By reading Acts 15 you will get a good picture of how a godly leader goes about his duties. Paul recognizes James' leadership and he is mentioned separately from the rest of the elders in Jerusalem in Acts 21:18. Early Church history confirms the fact that James was the leading elder in the Jerusalem assembly.

Even a cursory glance at early Church history show that all of the major assemblies had a plurality of elders but that there was only one leading elder (called a pastor or bishop) who was responsible for the direction and oversight of the assembly.

The Gentile assemblies also followed the same pattern of leadership that had been established from the beginning. Paul had establish many churches during his missionary journeys and continued to appoint leaders in every church. Timothy (who wasn't an apostle) is an example of one who was given authority in the Ephesian Church. He was given instructions on dealing with problems in the Church and was expected to lead the Church despite the fact that he was apparently very young. Paul also gives detailed instructions on leading the Church to Titus, leader at Crete. Here again, an example of one central leader given the responsibility over a young Church.

Even in the last book of the Scriptures, the book of Revelation, we see the divine order that was established in Genesis still prevails. Rev. 2 & 3 contains seven letters written to seven churches from the Lord Jesus. Each letter is written to a single individual who has the responsibility for leading the church under his care. The recipient of each letter is referred to as the "angel" of the church which is a descriptive metaphor for a single individual within the Church and not, as some have mistakenly said, literal "angels." This can be easily ascertained by looking at the language used by the Lord when He speaks to these "angels."

Revelation 2:1 1. To the angel of the church of Ephesus write;...vs 4 Nevertheless I have [somewhat] against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. 5 Remember therefore from which thou hast fallen, and repent, and do the first works;...

Revelation 2:12 12. And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write;... vs 16 Repent; or else I will come to thee quickly,...

Revelation 3:1 1. And to the angel of the church in Sardis write;... I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead. 2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.

Revelation 3:14 14. And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write;...I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. 16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit thee out of my mouth.

Literal angels don't need to be reminded to return to their first love, or to repent. They don't need to be told that they have a name that they live but are really dead. Literal angels aren't lukewarm!

The angel metaphor is used because these singular persons are in reality messengers from God. They are to be leading the church by finding out God's direction, His purposes, and then relaying the message to the assembly that God has given them charge over.

There are other places in Scripture that the same Greek word "angel" is translated as "messenger." Here is an example:

Luke 9:52 52 And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him.

VIII. Summary

It seems clear that God has from the beginning ordained that there be those who have the gift and responsibility of leadership, both within the confines of the family, as well as the broader context of the Church.

Having said all of this, I realize that not all "senior pastors" are operating the way God has ordained. Some are obviously in leadership when they are not even called. We often have to search for churches (even including Home Churches) where divine order prevails, yet this lack does not negate the divine pattern that God has established.

God's gifts to the church are the 5-fold ministry: apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers. (Eph.4:11) Not all have these leadership gifts in the church, although all have been given gifts and are expected to function in their place in the Body of Christ. Ephesians 4:12-14 tell us the purpose of 5-fold ministry in the church:
1. To equip the saints for the work of ministry
2. To edify the Body of Christ
3. To bring everyone into the unity of the faith and knowledge of the Son of God
4. To help perfect the Body of Christ, to reach the fullness of Christ
5. To protect and to feed the flock, so that they are "no longer children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting." (Eph. 4:14) So that the flock will mature and "grow up in all things into Him who is the head--Christ".

And finally, vs. 16 of Ephesians 4 points out that it's the "WHOLE body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which EVERY part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love."

We have been members of churches which practiced body ministry, along with the God-ordained "senior pastor" and elders. In these churches, members were taught the Word of God by teachers who were gifted in this area, and they were encouraged to use their gifts to fulfill their place in the Body. (Peter 5:2-4) We don't believe that those called by God to be pastors and teachers must necessarily attend Bible schools or seminaries, but we do believe that they should have a solid foundation in the Word of God so that they don't lead their flock into error. Obviously, all Christians should obtain this solid foundation in the Word of God, but those who are in leadership will receive the stricter judgment, and it's extremely important that they not lead their flock astray by teaching error. (James 3:1 "My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment.")

There will always be those who, like Korah, don't like the idea that God chooses certain of His servants to lead His flock, but the overwhelming evidence shows that He indeed does just that.

To conclude, since the NT states that there will be people who have a problem with the "one" leader concept like the OT figure of Korah (Jude 11) I would like to quote the passage where Korah and his followers rebel against the divine order that God has established through Moses. Please note that these folk (like their modern day counterparts) were also concerned with the "senior pastor" who seemed to be "taking too much" upon himself:

Numbers 16:1 1. Now Korah, the son of Izhar, the son of Kohath, the son of Levi, and Dathan and Abiram, the sons of Eliab, and On, the son of Peleth, sons of Reuben, took [men]: 2 And they rose up before Moses, with certain of the children of Israel, two hundred and fifty princes of the assembly, famous in the congregation, men of renown: 3 And they assembled themselves against Moses and against Aaron, and said to them, [Ye take] too much upon you, seeing all the congregation [are] holy, every one of them, and the LORD [is] among them: why then do ye raise yourselves above the congregation of the LORD? {Ye take...: Heb. It is much for you} 4 And when Moses heard [it], he fell upon his face: 5 And he spoke to Korah and to all his company, saying, Even to morrow the LORD will show who [are] his, and [who is] holy; and will cause [him] to come near to him: even [him] whom he hath chosen will he cause to come near to him. 6 This do; Take you censers, Korah, and all his company; 7 And put fire in them, and put incense in them before the LORD to morrow: and it shall be [that] the man whom the LORD doth choose, he [shall be] holy: [ye take] too much upon you, ye sons of Levi. 8 And Moses said to Korah, Hear, I pray you, ye sons of Levi: 9 [Seemeth it but] a small thing to you, that the God of Israel hath separated you from the congregation of Israel, to bring you near to himself to do the service of the tabernacle of the LORD, and to stand before the congregation to minister to them? 10 And he hath brought thee near [to him], and all thy brethren the sons of Levi with thee: and seek ye the priesthood also? 11 For which cause [both] thou and all thy company [are] assembled against the LORD: and what [is] Aaron, that ye murmur against him?

...Then comes the judgment:

Numbers 16:28 28 And Moses said, by this ye shall know that the LORD hath sent me to do all these works; for [I have] not [done them] of my own mind. 29 If these men shall die the common death of all men, or if they be visited after the visitation of all men; [then] the LORD hath not sent me. {the common...: Heb. as every man dieth} 30 But if the LORD shall make a new thing, and the earth shall open her mouth, and swallow them up, with all that [appertain] to them, and they go down alive into the pit; then ye shall understand that these men have provoked the LORD. {make...: Heb. create a creature} 31 And it came to pass, as he had finished speaking all these words, that the ground opened up that [was] under them: 32 And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up, and their houses, and all the men that [appertained] to Korah, and all [their] goods. 33 They, and all that [appertained] to them, went down alive into the pit, and the earth closed upon them: and they perished from among the congregation.


[Updated on: Wed, 01 February 2006 00:19]

I want to believe!
 Topic: What is missing from Ch__ch? UR
What is missing from Ch__ch? UR [message #13] Tue, 31 January 2006 23:48
william  is currently offline william
Messages: 1198
Registered: January 2006
Senior Member
What's missing from Ch--ch? YOU ARE!

Since "Church" means different things to different people, let me first establish what I mean when I use the term. I believe that we are the Church, the living, breathing, functioning, members of the Body of Christ. Many people use the term to designate the building where the Christians meet instead of using it as a term to describe the Christians themselves. The shift in usage came about (imo) when more attention began to be paid to the place where the congregation gathered rather than on the congregation itself. Most scholars agree that this occurred when the Roman emperor Constantine converted to Christianity. Christians were persecuted and maligned, sometimes severely, until Constantine "legitimatized" and "institutionalized" the Church. It is said that at this point there was a large influx of people who "converted" to Christianity without the benefit of the "born again" experience.

The supernatural power that was commonplace in the lives of the Christians begin to wane and in many cases the congregation ceased to be a dynamic force and there began to be a clear distinction between the leadership and the membership. The concept of the whole church being involved in ministry gave way to a full-time "clergy" who ministered for (and to) the "laity" (which is an unscriptural concept, imo).

Church history is clear that the supernatural was common in the first few centuries and Christians everywhere experienced the supernatural gifts of healing, prophecy, tongues, miracles, etc.. When the church became institutionalized, (by Constantine's actions,) the gifts begin to be less and less in evidence (but never completely absent) and the building became the focal point instead of an active power-laden membership. To describe this phenomenon, we sometimes use the phrase "the church became an organization instead of a living organism."

Personally, I believe that until Christians everywhere begin to exercise the gifts there won't be any significant world-changing (in the book of Acts sense) revival.

It's much too great a task for a "clergy" to be able to accomplish by itself.

In my opinion it will take a radical change in both the leadership and membership for there to be significant changes in the status quo. The leaders continue to blame the congregation for the apparent deadness in the church program and the congregation blames the leaders for not doing their part (which in most churches is *everything*--obviously an impossible task!)

To assure job security, the pastor must be constantly brainstorming new exciting programs, visiting the sick, shaking hands, preaching dynamic sermons (that he has no time to prepare), evangelizing the city, etc. etc. etc.. (It also helps if the pastor's wife plays the piano or organ which makes it seem as if the church is getting more for its money!) The congregation usually views church participation as passive involvement with the exception of those few times that they are drafted by the pastor to head up his latest pet project.

Isn't it the job of the Church to meet all of the needs of the people? How can this happen unless you are actively involved in exercising the gifts that God gave you?

In the early Church if one of the members needed finances, they responded, if someone needed healing, they responded, when spiritual help was needed, the church responded, if a person was in prison because of their faith, the church responded. They responded to every need, (I'm not talking about responding by just adding them to a prayer list) they responded with tangible and often times supernatural help. The "clergy" won't be able to accomplish that by itself!

The Church had the answers for *every* need. Imagine what would happen if the gifts were as prominent today as they were in the early Church? What if, on a given Sunday, there were a couple of blind eyes opened, a cripple person healed, and a person healed from AIDS. Do you think that there would be a need for a "program" the following Sunday? Would there be a need for a door to door witnessing campaign? If this happened, there wouldn't be room in the building for the meeting.

What's missing from Ch -- ch? UR! You are missing if you aren't taking seriously the call to function as a part of the Body of Christ, utilizing the gifts that God gave you.

Let's pray for the gifts of the Holy Spirit and then be willing to use them


I want to believe!
 Topic: Speaking in Tongues...
Speaking in Tongues... [message #11] Tue, 31 January 2006 23:23
william  is currently offline william
Messages: 1198
Registered: January 2006
Senior Member
While I'm certainly no expert on the subject of tongues, I do have the benefit of having possessed this gift for 29 years.

Jesus said that those who believe would be the possessors of the gift.

Mr 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

This verse should not be used to prove that anyone who does not have the gift of tongues is not a believer anymore than one would say that casting out demons is necessary for every Christian believer. But it is a sign that Jesus said would follow His people.

Jesus promised the Holy Spirit to those who believe and one of the outward signs that the Holy Spirit had indeed been given to a person was the gift of tongues.

Ac 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

This aspect of the account isn't widespread in most who receive the gift although there are accounts of similar occurrences-- it isn't typical.

Ac 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

When they were filled with the Holy Spirit, it was the Spirit that gave the utterance, but as with all of God's gifts, they had to do the speaking. God never overrides our volition. We may find ourselves in an atmosphere where it is highly conducive for phenomena to occur, but it is never accurate to say that one was merely a passive participant that had no control over his own volition. This isn't to say that it might not seem as if one could do nothing else but act, or in this case, speak, but one thing is clear from my understanding of Scripture-God doesn't force His children to do anything. We are not robots; His Spirit gives the utterance, but we must, by an act of volition, speak. This is not so for one who has given himself over to the demonic powers of darkness. In cases of demonic possession it appears that the person has little or no control over his actions, but that is another discussion.

Ac 2:8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

This verse shows that "tongues" are real languages and not merely babbling. This isn't to say that those who do not recognize or understand other languages might not conclude that those who speak in these languages are babbling (or drunk as some supposed.)

Ac 2:11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

These tongues didn't need interpretation although there were people present who understood the various languages that were being spoken.

Later, God used Peter to spread the gospel to the gentiles and when he was preaching the Word (these signs shall follow...) the Holy Spirit fell on the gentile believers and they begin to speak in tongues as well.

Ac 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

The same sort of experience had befallen the gentiles as had previously happened on the day of Pentecost with the Jewish believers.

Sometimes the Holy Spirit was imparted by the laying on of hands, again the evidence that the Holy Spirit had come was the outward expression of tongues (these signs shall follow...).

Ac 19:6 And when Paul had laid [his] hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

To this point in the Biblical account there hasn't been an emphasis on the particular function of tongues in the experience of the believer other than to give evidence to the infilling of the Holy Spirit --and when understood, they magnified God and His works. The emphasis is only on the initial experience and no mention is made concerning the continuation of this gift in the believer's life, but as Paul later develops regulations concerning tongues in the Church, we see that this gift was not just an initial outward evidence of the Holy Spirit's infilling, but a continual experience that actually had purpose in the lives of the believers.

Next comes some specific teaching concerning the operation of the gift of tongues in the Church. Speaking of the gifts given to the Church, he mentions that there are at least 3 utterance gifts-tongues, interpretation of tongues, and prophecy.

1Co 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another [divers] kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

Keep in mind that Paul here is dealing not with the phenomena of tongues that occur upon receiving the Holy Spirit, but he is giving instructions on the operation of these gifts within the context of the Church. Apparently these gifts were in operation in the lives of believers long before Paul gives these instructions. It seems as if the Corinthian believers were blessed with an abundance of gifts and the free exercise of these gifts was causing problems in the context of the assembly of believers. This is a foreign concept in most of our modern Churches, thus when he says:

1Co 14:26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying. If any man speak in an tongue, [let it be] by two, or at the most [by] three, and [that] by course; and let one interpret…

and then:

1Co 14:29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge. For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.

You can see there were many of the utterance gifts in operation and each utterance takes time. One can understand why he needed to regulate the gifts-- if nothing else so the pastor could have a little time for his sermon!

If your Church has this problem (multiple tongues and interpretations, multiple prophecies), then by all means limit them to Paul's suggestions, but I don't see a problem if your Church just sings a few songs, takes up a collection, prays and then has the sermon. It would seem that encouraging more of the gifts (not less) would be the better strategy for most modern day Churches. You can always put in some of the regulations later if it gets out of hand!

1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. {diversities: or, kinds}

There are a lot of ministries in operation here and most of us can only wish for a Church like the one at Corinth, but nevertheless Paul, because of this abundance of gifts and ministries, had to remind them to let everything be done orderly and for the edification of all.

He goes on to say:

1Co 12:30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

This verse is oftentimes used out of context in an attempt to prove that all believers are not given the gift of tongues, but the context is the context of the Church Assembly. No, not all have the gifts of healing-but all can pray for healing and be healed. No, all should not speak in tongues-or, as he points out, the Church will not be edified (unless there is an interpreter). And no, all do not interpret-but he says that if you do speak in tongues in a Church where there is no interpreter, then you can pray for the interpretation (even if you don't have the gift for the interpretation of tongues!) Most would agree that we all teach, we all exhort, we all encourage-to a degree, but we wouldn't necessarily say that we have the gift to teach in the Church, or the gift to exhort the Church-could we do it? Yes, but it is far better to let those who excel in certain gifts be the ones who use the gifts in the Church. We can't all be the preacher, but we can all preach! We can't all be the eye but we can all see! We all can't be the ear in the Assembly, but we can all hear!

Ok, to continue:

1Co 14:4 He that speaketh in a tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

Paul in no way diminishes the value of speaking in tongues for our own edification, but as far as the Church goes there is a need for public edification, thus he continues to focus on what is best for the public assembly.

Apparently Paul thought it was a good idea for all to speak in tongues for personal edification (I'm sure this is where the phrase "personal prayer language" comes from) but his emphasis is the edification of the whole Church in this context.

1Co 14:5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater [is] he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

It is interesting to note that speaking in tongues--with interpretation-- edifies the Church as much as prophecy.

1Co 14:6 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?

1Co 14:9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air. {easy: Gr. significant}

1Co 14:13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in a tongue pray that he may interpret.

Once again, interpretation is necessary if the Church is to benefit.

1Co 14:14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

Praying in this personal prayer language edifies the believer because it is the spirit that is praying. This can be done at home, but when the assembly of believers meet together it is much better to speak with the understanding so that all can be edified.

Paul not only spoke in tongues at home but it seems he spoke everywhere but the Church!

1Co 14:18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:

1Co 14:19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that [by my voice] I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an tongue.

Ok, next he goes back to the initial reason for tongues-the outward sign of the infilling of the Holy Spirit:

1Co 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying [serveth] not for them that believe not, but for them which believe. If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in [those that are] unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?

1Co 14:26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

1Co 14:27 If any man speak in an tongue, [let it be] by two, or at the most [by] three, and [that] by course; and let one interpret

1Co 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

I've been in Churches that stress the no speaking in tongues without an interpreter passage to a fault, but I believe that you can not take that passage out of context and place it into the context of our modern Church without first having the same problems that prevailed at Corinth.

We really do need more of the gifts in operation in our Churches and if an atmosphere is created where these gifts are stifled we all suffer.

Think about it, you will never know if you have an interpreter unless someone speaks in tongues, and I can envision that there might be a time when someone might speak out in tongues and the person who had the gift of interpretation didn't bring it forth. It might take a few times for some people to become bold enough to stand in the assembly, so be a little patient. Sure, if there is a problem (like at Corinth) where speaking in tongues predominates the meeting, there needs to be some regulation, but lets face it, most of our Churches don't have a problem where the gifts have to be regulated.


[Updated on: Tue, 31 January 2006 23:26]

I want to believe!
 Topic: Church Government
Church Government [message #8] Tue, 31 January 2006 22:58
william  is currently offline william
Messages: 1198
Registered: January 2006
Senior Member
This was something I wrote in response to a question about different ministries within the Church. I believe all believers have gifts (1Cor 12) but in this discussion I'm limiting myself to those gifts that are closely related to Church Government.

First some terms:

Disciples: We are all called to be disciples, which means a "learner". (Acts 11:26). All Christians should be disciples!

Minister: One who serves! All of us are called to minister/serve.

Apostle: My understanding is that an "apostle" is literally "one who is sent" and specifically has come to designate one who is chosen and sent by God to accomplish a particular task. It is one of the "offices" of Church listed in Eph. 4:11f which to me indicates that as long as the Church is in existence the office is valid. Do I know any apostles personally? No. *grin*

Elder: There are two types, those who are the spiritually mature "pillars" of the church and those who are among the leadership of the church. The classic OT example is the 70 elders that Moses chose to help lead the children of Israel. These would be the elders with the anointing to rule, but there were many more elders in the nation of Israel, in fact these 70 were chosen from a much larger group of elders.

In the church there are usually many who are considered elders because of their spiritual maturity but only a few of these would be placed in overseer type positions. This latter group would be considered the (grk)"episcopate" or overseeing elders, in the NT.

Deacon: Again, there are two types of (grk)"diaconate" mentioned in the NT. The word means "those who serve." In our time the word is used mostly as a designation for those who serve the physical needs of the church (table-servers--taken from the example given in Acts 6:2.) But in the NT the word is also used as a designation for those who serve the spiritual food to the church, i.e. Word ministers. (see Acts 6:4 where the same term is used to describe the Word-servers!)

Shepherd: Could describe those with the pastoral gift (one who feeds the flock) as well as those who have been given the oversight (episcopate.) The term is loaded with imagery and meaning from both the OT and new.

Overseer: Sometimes referred to as a "bishop," and falls into the category of the "episcopate." 1 Pet2:25 Refers to God as the "Shepherd" and "Overseer" of our souls. One translation uses the term "guardian" which accurately describe the "episcopate."

In summery, there are basically two groups in the NT Church that God uses to protect and mature His saints. The diaconate (specifically the "Word" servers) and the episcopate.

The diaconate can be summed up quite nicely by the list given in Eph 4:11f, apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers. Each of these gifts are given by *God* to the individual and no one else has a say as to who gets what gift. These gifts are independent of men and are between the individual and God alone.

The episcopate gifts on the other hand are given only in the context of a group or groups of people and only have relevance with respect to that group or groups. The episcopate combines the ideas of overseer,(episkopos Heb.12:15--looking diligently) rulership,(heigeomai Acts15:22 Heb.13:7,17,24) and those who "stand before"(proisteimi Rm 12:8, 1Thess.5:12 1Tim.3:4; 5:12.)

Obviously, those with the diaconate gifts (Eph4:11f Pastors, Teachers, Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists) need a group of people to be able to discharge their gifts effectively, but their gift is *independent* of these groups. They are given their gifts apart from the hand of man and must answer to God for the use or misuse of their gifts. For example a person with pastoral gifts might travel to another assembly and if given an opportunity to speak his message will be pastoral in nature (not that he would become their pastor, but the gift would be in evidence by the "feeding the flock" nature of his message.) In other words, his gift travels with him! The same thing could be said for the prophet, teacher, etc..

The episcopate (ruling) gifts on the other hand only arise when there is a need for them and only exist as long as the need exists. A person might be called into the position of elder and begin to function in that capacity, but if he travels to another city his "episcopate" gift doesn't travel with him. He would exercise no authority in any other assembly. His gift would not have meaning apart from his "sphere of authority."

Sometimes the two different giftings overlap and this makes it hard to distinguish between the diaconate and the episcopate. Usually a person with the pastoral (one who feeds the sheep) calling will also be given episcopate gifts to oversee and rule in the local assembly. Paul was both apostle (diaconate) and elder/overseer (episcopate) to the gentile assemblies.

I hope I haven't bored you with all of this, it has always been a favorite subject of mine!

I would welcome your thoughts on this subject.


I want to believe!
Forum: Introductions & General
 Topic: Lovers of Their Own Selves
Lovers of Their Own Selves [message #12256] Fri, 01 September 2017 09:57
Mark L  is currently offline Mark L
Messages: 556
Registered: October 2006
Location: Canada
Senior Member

Ran across an interesting video on this subject. Regarding the change in attitudes in our society over the last generation or so. Lots of interesting family friendly material on the site as well.

[Updated on: Sat, 02 September 2017 09:06]

 Topic: Sally Ann
Sally Ann [message #12201] Fri, 27 January 2017 10:24
Mark L  is currently offline Mark L
Messages: 556
Registered: October 2006
Location: Canada
Senior Member
Quite an interesting article here on Wiki. I had no idea. To take heat like this they must have been very effective. When I was about 14 I was camping with my family and listened to a Sally Ann band. The Oompa type. Brass drums etc. It had a deep effect on me even at that young age. As I listened I found the Holy Spirit speaking to me and calling me although at the time I didn't really understand it. Its interesting one of main opposition actually got saved.

[Updated on: Fri, 27 January 2017 10:25]

 Topic: Stan Nichols passed away...
Stan Nichols passed away... [message #12039] Wed, 04 May 2016 23:15
william  is currently offline william
Messages: 1198
Registered: January 2006
Senior Member
Administrator s&user_id=1793395

He was one of my best friends in Indiana. I'm sorry to see him go but I know he's with the Lord and I'll see him again someday!

I may drive up to attend the funeral. If anyone else knew him and plans to go, please let me know.


I want to believe!
 Topic: Don Langebartels
Don Langebartels [message #11608] Mon, 22 June 2015 05:13
Gary  is currently offline Gary
Messages: 870
Registered: August 2008
Location: Indiana
Senior Member
Brother Don Langebartels went to be with the Lord over the weekend. Don't know if any here had set under his ministry. He headed up the Zion Lake Christian Camp near North Vernon.

I have a lot of good memories from that place. Back in the day there was a Seminar held there every weekend in the summer with most of the ministers from Faith Assembly coming down and preaching there. Tom Hamilton and other ministers from around the country preached there also. I remember the summer camp was a great ministry to the youth. Remember to pray for the family.

Sadly missed but with the Lord.


[Updated on: Mon, 22 June 2015 05:14]

 Topic: Passing of Danny Katzer
Passing of Danny Katzer [message #10943] Sun, 16 March 2014 22:39
GWB  is currently offline GWB
Messages: 713
Registered: March 2008
Location: Louisville, Ky area
Senior Member
I just found out that Mark and Patty (Seamon) Katzer's son, Danny, passed.

I don't have any other details right now.

This family is very loving and has been a blessing to all who know them.

Please lift them up in prayer.



"Be still and know that I am God."
 Topic: Joshua's missing Day!
Joshua's missing Day! [message #10697] Thu, 02 January 2014 13:08
Mark L  is currently offline Mark L
Messages: 556
Registered: October 2006
Location: Canada
Senior Member
They got me on this one. issing-day
 Topic: Prunes vs Gems
Prunes vs Gems [message #9679] Mon, 19 August 2013 01:36
GWB  is currently offline GWB
Messages: 713
Registered: March 2008
Location: Louisville, Ky area
Senior Member
I work in Long Term Care (nursing home.)

I have watched dozens of people grow older, decline, and eventually die. I have often wondered how Father picks the moment for people to pass. I think I have seen a small insight into this subject.

"Though our outer self is wasting away, our inner self is being renewed day by day.....For the things that are seen are turning to dust, but the things that are unseen endure forever. II Cor. 4:16, 18.

I see old people with bodies that look like prunes. They are wrinkled and creased. Fat deposits of youth are gone and faces and bodies are sucken and thin. The skin is paper thin. Eyes become dim. Ears no longer hear. The memory, short and long term are gone. The list goes on.

I know some are believing for their youth to be renewed, but I digress in making my point.

What appears to be a prune holds a precious gem inside if one has descended in order to ascend. You must want His Kingdom to come and for the Kingdoms of this world to diminish. We must let go of our agendas and our egos. We must despise the advent of self.

Like Paul, I have been with much and with little. I have lost family and friends. I have learned to be content in all things. What a peace! I have had to dangle in the air and He has asked me to jump off of cliffs. That is the way I put it, anyway.

In order to become a gem inside, sometimes He will ask you to live in exile to this world. I have never been more content in doing so.

I believe that when the gem has grown (closeness to Him) and when it sparkles the most from inside the prune (fruit of the spirit) some pass over into his presence.

I have witnessed a few marvelous things when people pass. They see heaven. They see angels. Some are horrified with what they see, but still refuse to receive Salvation when I share with them. Our Salvation is truly a gift.

So, my prayer is to press on. I glory in the excile of this life. My life is His. He gives me dreams about people, words of knowledge, and what to pray. We don't have to be around people to minister life in every case.

I miss my earthly and Heavenly Father. In His time, I will be out of the mess of this world. In the meantime, a gem is growing and sparkling more and more until He decides what to do with it. Smile

[Updated on: Mon, 19 August 2013 01:39]



"Be still and know that I am God."
 Topic: The R U Ready file
The R U Ready file [message #9199] Tue, 11 December 2012 08:34
Mark L  is currently offline Mark L
Messages: 556
Registered: October 2006
Location: Canada
Senior Member
This one is for the R U Ready File. I'd love to see it. fe-sized-replica-of-noahs-ark/
 Topic: Creation declares the Glory of God
Creation declares the Glory of God [message #8820] Tue, 28 February 2012 10:21
Mark  is currently offline Mark
Messages: 37
Registered: November 2011
Location: Canada
You guys should watch this trailer. Just beautiful. ucts_id=4072& mp;utm_campaign=459783dff9-ecard20120228&utm_medium=emai l&mc_cid=459783dff9&mc_eid=oCiqgaHusK

I find I always have to write something on a steamed mirror....
 Topic: Some rambling thoughts
Some rambling thoughts [message #8776] Thu, 26 January 2012 11:25
Mark  is currently offline Mark
Messages: 37
Registered: November 2011
Location: Canada
Someone asked the question on Lonely planet how to visit Israel and have a polite political conversation. Here are some of the responses. Not trying to offend anyone but I just thought it was kind of funny.

Here was the question

My understanding is that Israel is an intensely political country and that it is often quite difficult to divorce political discussion from daily life. It is part and parcel of it. As well, as Israel has what some might call a disproportionate place in world affairs, it might not be difficult for a visitor to be drawn into a discussion of politics. Does anyone have any tried and proven pointers on the art and etiquette of participating in civil political discussions in Israel? (Operative word civil) Is there anything a well-intentioned but politically aware visitor should be aware of and avoid so as not to give offence?

Some responses

Using "ettiquette" and "Israel" in the same sentence is an oxymoron. Smile

There's a saying among Jerusalem-based diplomats which says: "The first month you'll ask Israelis what they think of the conflict, the second month you'll ask Palestinians what they think of the conflict, the third month on you'll stop asking and you'll get drunk."

There is another saying, that if you visit Israel for a week, you go home and write a book about it. If you go for a month, you write a magazine article. If you go for a year, you don't write anything because you no longer know what to write...

not only do etiquette and israel not belong in the same sentence, i have rarely heard here (in almost 40 years) a civil political discussion! as mentioned, everyone here has very passionate political opinions and is very eager to express them. very very few are willing to engage in a "discussion" , a word that implies dialogue, some sort of give and take, listen and respond. a political "discussion" might be described as more than one israeli offering his/her opinions as holy truth very loudly! and often simultaneously.

Well put. I feel that your advice about week, month, year is true about life as well. The more I learn, the more I realise that I don't know anything. Or as Socrates said, the only thing I know is that I don't know anything.

I find I always have to write something on a steamed mirror....
 Topic: Autism
Autism [message #8748] Wed, 11 January 2012 13:46
Mark  is currently offline Mark
Messages: 37
Registered: November 2011
Location: Canada
Does anyone know what causes it? The reason I ask is there was an article which mentioned it in one of our National dallies here in Canada today. Has there ever been any revelation come through our circles or charismatic circles about it?

From the article

And imagine how the latest news — that previous abortions can raise the risk of autism by 26% in later children carried to full term — will be received. Most reports on the October 2011 Harvard University study didn’t even mention the abortion-autism link, just the gestational diabetes-autism connection. pro-choicers-are-against-any-choice-but-abortion/

[Updated on: Wed, 11 January 2012 13:47]

I find I always have to write something on a steamed mirror....
 Topic: Stratfor
Stratfor [message #8744] Mon, 09 January 2012 13:42
Mark  is currently offline Mark
Messages: 37
Registered: November 2011
Location: Canada
As I'm sure all of you are aware that followed my excellent advice to sign up for Stratfor their site has been hacked.

You need to change all your passwords as the hackers got all the info you provided to them.

What a hassle. I gave them my primary email with my usual password. Went to gmail and found a message from google that they thought my info had been hacked there.

What a hassle. Change all your passwords for whatever info they have.

Also any email from Stratfor is not valid. They are only using facebook & twitter to communicate.

They also have my real name so now I have to change facebook and everything.

I find I always have to write something on a steamed mirror....
 Topic: John Lennon on evolution
John Lennon on evolution [message #7996] Sun, 03 July 2011 11:23
Mark L  is currently offline Mark L
Messages: 556
Registered: October 2006
Location: Canada
Senior Member
From the "Can you believe it file???"

John Lennon on evolution

I don't know if there's any harm in it except they ram it down everybody's throat. ter048051.html

I'm not sure who these people are. I found it on World Net Daily.
 Topic: Hungarian Church worship
Hungarian Church worship [message #7767] Thu, 21 April 2011 14:40
tomax7  is currently offline tomax7
Messages: 45
Registered: August 2006
Location: Calgary, AB
Praise God this is a blessing as it is my heritage per se - Mother's side.

Remember to Smile! God loves you!
 Topic: Christine O'Donnell...sister in Christ?
Christine O'Donnell...sister in Christ? [message #7393] Fri, 15 October 2010 14:59
james  is currently offline james
Messages: 1950
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL
Senior Member
As I read about Christine O'Donnell and see an occasional TV interview with her I thought this would be a good argument for why Christians shouldn't be involved in politics. She started with the 'Tea Party's' endorsemet and is now running as the Republican candidate for Congress from Delaware. Of course, mainstream 'conservative' Chrisitanity just automatically jumps on the bandwagon because no one wants to endorse a 'liberal'. But after reading a few quotes by her I'd question why Christians would support her.

Some statements attributed to her...

"My faith has influenced my personal life."

"My faith hasn't influenced my politics."

"God told me to run for office."

On her experience with christianity...

"There's only truth and not truth, you're either very good or evil.
I went back to my dorm and asked myself what I was."

Concerning her involvement with witchcraft...

"One of my first dates with a witch was on a Satanic alter, and I didn't know it."

I don't believe in reincarnation or cloning, so I know she's not Sarah Palin...but why do they remind me of each other? So for those who believe that it's a Christians duty and responsibility to participate in the 'American process' of elections of government leaders, what would be the 'Lord's will' for how you'd cast your vote should you live in Delaware? Vote for the 'christian' conservative Republican (who upon a little research proves to be something besides what she claims) or, vote for the liberal Democrat (who you know will endorse abortion, gay rights, the healthcare bill, bigger government, and whatever else ungodly thing that comes up)?
Just something to consider when making choices concerning which kingdom you want to be a part of...btw: one of them will be elected, and the downward spiral will continue. angelical_N.htm

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
 Topic: The Question ?
The Question ? [message #7389] Tue, 12 October 2010 20:30
JWBTI  is currently offline JWBTI
Messages: 289
Registered: March 2007
Location: Ohio
Senior Member
The question many have pondered over the years is…….

Why did I not get healed when I prayed ?
Take this quiz and see what the answer is !

1) Do you have any unforgiveness in your heart, hate or resentment ?
Mt 6:12-15, Mk 11:25, James 5:14-15.

2) Do you believe that you have Jobs trial or Pauls thorn ?
If so, do you have Jobs righteousness or Pauls abundance of revelation ?
Remember this! Job got healed Chapter 42 and Paul wasn’t sick.

3) Do you blame God or charge him with putting or allowing this Infirmity on you ?
Read John 10:10, Acts 10:38

4) Have you replaced Devine Healing with Medical Science ?
Read Mk 11:22, Mt 6:24, Ex 23:23, Heb 13:8

5) Have you asked for Healing, In Faith, without wavering ?
Read James 1:1-8

6) Are you Fully persuaded, that what God had promised, He is able to perform ?
Rom 4:21,
Mk 11:22-24,
James 5:15,
Mk 16:17-18
1 Jh 5:13-15

If the answer to questions 1 thru 4 are No !
And Yes! to 5 and 6, then stand fast in Faith, in Gods Word !
Your Healing is on its way !

If your answer to any of the questions 1 thru 4 are Yes!
And No ! to 5 and 6,
Then humble yourselves before God, read and believe His Promises
allow the Holy Spirit to impart faith to your heart so you will be Healed !

 Topic: Just a quick note...
Just a quick note... [message #5644] Fri, 27 March 2009 11:16
william  is currently offline william
Messages: 1198
Registered: January 2006
Senior Member
Just wanted to let those who are busy deleting messages that there is a
quicker method than deleting them one at a time... I can delete in bulk
if I know the reason and criteria you are using. I hate to see someone
wasting a lot of time when it is totally unnecessary as I can do it in
minutes instead of the laborious method of removing them one at a time.

I'm sure you are trying to be respectful to the other members who have
taken time to post; deleting your notes from the midst of the others one
at a time can be an arduous task.

Let me know if you need help in redeeming the time!


 Topic: Clean up, pack up, look up!
Clean up, pack up, look up! [message #5642] Wed, 25 March 2009 09:15
GWB  is currently offline GWB
Messages: 713
Registered: March 2008
Location: Louisville, Ky area
Senior Member
Psalm 62

A Calm Resolve to Wait for the Salvation of God

Truly my soul silently waits for God:
From Him comes my salvation.
He only is my rock and my salvation;
He is my defense;
I shall not be greatly moved.

How long will you attack a man?
You shall be slain, all of you,
Like a leaning wall and a tottering fence.
They only consult to cast him down from his high position;
They delight in lies;
They bless with their mouth,
But they curse inwardly.

My soul, wait silently for God alone,
For my expectation is from Him.
He only is my rock and my salvation;
He is my defense;
I shall not be moved.
In God is my salvation and my glory;
The rock of my strength,
And my refuge, is in God.

Trust in Him at all times, you people;
Pour out your heart before Him;
God is a refuge for us.

Surely men of low degree are a vapor,
Men of high degree are a lie;
If they are weighed on the scales,
They are altogether lighter than vapor.
Do not trust in oppression,
Nor vainly hope in robbery;
If riches increase,
Do not set your heart on them.

God has spoken once,
Twice I have heard this:
That power belongs to God.
Also to You, O Lord, belongs mercy;
For You render to each one according to his work.

God has given this Psalm to me for the past few months about His return. I know we are not to walk in fear of man or Satan, but I think a good dose of the fear of God never hurt anyone.

I was just wondering if anyone else is REALLY being dealt with about these things. I don't want to miss the first load!



Be still and know that I am God

 Topic: Mike Wingfield
Mike Wingfield [message #5339] Tue, 24 February 2009 21:54
whitearizona  is currently offline whitearizona
Messages: 8
Registered: April 2008
Junior Member
Can anybody give me some info on Mike Wingfield. His name seems to be popping up recently and I know nothing about him. Thanks for any info you have.
 Topic: Our Family Trouble, My Story
Our Family Trouble, My Story [message #4368] Sun, 14 December 2008 23:38
GWB  is currently offline GWB
Messages: 713
Registered: March 2008
Location: Louisville, Ky area
Senior Member
I believe Jesus would have me share my story with those who are interested. Please email me, in this forum, and I will send it to you. Due to the nature of my situation, I need to know who you are. I went to FA from six months before the "Exodus" to the new building until 1986; surely it cannot be very hard. Does this mean we are now officially underground? Rolling Eyes Smile

If I do not know you, I will have to have another member on this forum recommend that it is OK to send it to you. I am sorry, but that is the only way I know how to do it unless someone has a suggestion for me. Smile

It is a story of great battle and great victory. It is a rehearsal in words as to a type of persecution that I believe is near. It is also a story of restoration and not condemnation.

Blessings, GWB

"Be still and know that I am God"

 Topic: He Ain't Heavy, He's My Brother
He Ain't Heavy, He's My Brother [message #4367] Sun, 14 December 2008 23:23
GWB  is currently offline GWB
Messages: 713
Registered: March 2008
Location: Louisville, Ky area
Senior Member
I wanted to bring up a topic we need to seriously consider. This will be brief due to time, but I think it is important. I will do the best I can to check in, even with moving. Rolling Eyes

Jiz has taken the time and care to minister to me out of this forum. Neat things happen there with people! Shocked

He is my first prayer warrior in agreement with me and my situation. Yippee! Very Happy ...anybody else? I need for my name to pass your lips everyday when you pray. Please let me know who is praying for what concerning me and what He has laid on your heart.

With what has happened to me, I have been praying for three years to the day, marked in my Bible, for Him to brush the dust off of all overcomers all over the world, raise them up, and get the energizer bunnies running again. The questions of numbers, timing, etc., are for another thread. There I go again. Shocked

Does anybody else need someone to hold them up in prayer and for what specifically? You cannot get any better than the faith in this place. Smile Besides, it is kinda' hard to be bickerin' when yur prayin' for 'em. Rolling Eyes Very Happy

Personally, I am going to start a prayer list as to who responds, and what to pray for, etc. Then we need a thread for manisfestations. Hey Hombre, this is your cue for a slam dunk teaching, or anyone else for that matter. This threads is just for requests. Shocked Very Happy

He has given me Psalms 105 and, of course, Rev. 12.

Blessings, GWB

"Be still and know that I am God"

[Updated on: Sun, 14 December 2008 23:48]

 Topic: Hello All
Hello All [message #3972] Wed, 29 October 2008 15:57
bullcea1  is currently offline bullcea1
Messages: 1
Registered: September 2008
Location: Elkhart IN
Junior Member
My name is Chris Albright and I went to Faith Assembly from age 4 (1973) until age 18 (1987) and was able to see the formation and eventual dissipation of the church in northern Indiana. There were many great things I learned and many great things I sacrificed growing up in FA. I had many good friends and knew alot of terrific people. I have seen that M Chupp posted here and wanted to say hello to him, our fathers were good friends and we ocassionally hung out together with other kids our age. Also Isaw his mom a few years back at Malcolm Webbers church were Iwas delivering on my job as a UPS driver. Very nice people. My father was in the ministry about ten years or so and I have been told and I also think he was a good charismatic speaker. Younger days at the barn and the home and tent meetings were very uplifting. It was a great wholesome atmosphere for kids with Mrs Reussers teachings in the bookstore, the animals and out door activity, no tv so i read every book i could get my hands on including the whole world book encylopedia. After the move to the "new building" I personally felt things begin to change. No more childrens classes just a nursery. Sections of the church began to get cliqueish. I was about 13 when a man i didnt know came up and told me he doubted my salvation. At the time I was doing better than alot of kids my age and that broke my spirit. I was taking abuse frowm kids at school and turning the other cheek, I wantd to play sports badly, but didn't even ask knowing what the answer would be. I didn't associate with "worldly individuals", but here was this random guy sowing the seeds of doubt and judgement on a very young person. I thought to myself then I NEED TO GET OUT! If my efforts to live the christian life were in vain to these people, i did not need them. Personally I have never doubted my salvation I had repented my sins, and had asked God to take over my life. Iknew He was with me then and I know He is now. It was very hard to sit in church after that and my attitiude towards it became very bad. We moved to Peoria IL where my father was a pastor and while we were there FA imploded causing that church to become splintered. Having basically no church our family moved back to Indiana and I went to Bethel College while my dad eventually gave up the ministry. I went on to start my career at UPS and my parents split up. My dad is still in the area, my mom went to TX and then to MO and is still living there. I ould also like to say hi to Duncan and buckley(thanks for the piano lessons lois), I have seen Mark and Missy Akers over the years, but not for awhile, I used to hang out with them and Kevin and Jay Deckard, Scott Reed and many others. The only person I have had recent contact with is Angie Davis who is doing well and is nice to have someone who remembers alot of what it was like growing up there to talk with. There is much more to say but I'm not the best typist and my fingers are getting tired. God Bless you all and I would love to hear from you.
 Topic: On The Head Covering
On The Head Covering [message #3825] Mon, 20 October 2008 00:30
Michael The Disciple  is currently offline Michael The Disciple
Messages: 166
Registered: September 2007
Location: Somerset Ky
Senior Member

Question for those who believe in the headcovering. Do you believe it is essential just in the meetings or in public or at anytime one prays?

This is not just for women. What about a man praying wearing a hat when he is alone?
 Topic: Since Faith Assembly (and related Bodies)...
Since Faith Assembly (and related Bodies)... [message #3662] Thu, 09 October 2008 11:01
Messages: 22
Registered: January 2006
Junior Member

Is it well with your soul?[ 13 vote(s) ]
1.Yes, I am walking with the Lord, growing closer all the time! 8 / 62%
2.I am no longer walking with the Lord. 0 / 0%
3.I was backslidden for a while, but I'm back right with the Lord! 5 / 38%
4.I've been backslidden, but I'm under conviction and want to get right with God. 0 / 0%

Is it well with your soul? Smile Here's a poll (votes are totally anonymous and will not reveal your user name!).

[Updated on: Thu, 06 November 2008 20:25]


"I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus."--Phil 3:12
 Topic: Church Poll #1
Church Poll #1 [message #3657] Thu, 09 October 2008 09:54
Messages: 22
Registered: January 2006
Junior Member

Church Poll #1[ 10 vote(s) ]
1.I currently attend a local church. 4 / 40%
2.I currently home-church with only my family. 0 / 0%
3.I currently home-church, including other families. 0 / 0%
4.I'm currently visiting churches to find a "home." 1 / 10%
5.I don't attend a local church. 0 / 0%
6.I don't attend a local church, but would if I could find one that is "biblical." 5 / 50%

Here is an ANONYMOUS poll (your user name will NOT show up when you vote!) about whether or not you currently attend a local church.

(Now, I realize we are the church, but I'm using this phrasing due to my inability to come up with something more concise. Wink )


"I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus."--Phil 3:12
 Topic: Henry And Debbie Carrandante
Henry And Debbie Carrandante [message #3571] Thu, 02 October 2008 10:33
Michael The Disciple  is currently offline Michael The Disciple
Messages: 166
Registered: September 2007
Location: Somerset Ky
Senior Member

Hi saints,

Anyone recall this couple? They attended for a long time and had a large number of kids. They lived in the Liberty Mills area. The last I knew Henry had done some travelling with Jim Brenemen probably in about 1986. Any info appreciated.
 Topic: Looking for old friends
icon5.gif  Looking for old friends [message #3526] Sun, 28 September 2008 21:08
Psalm  is currently offline Psalm
Messages: 1
Registered: September 2008
Location: NC
Junior Member
Does anyone know how I can get in touch with Elizabeth Hart Allabach or Krystal Borsa Mishler? Elizabeth was my best friend at FA before we moved to Alabama in 1989. Krystal was my next best friend. The last time I saw them was at Krystal's wedding when she married Jonathan Mishler. I'm not sure I'm spelling that right. He was the son of Don Mishler. Elizabeth married a guy named Joshua Allabach. I found their info on, but the phone number listed has been disconnected. I regret not keeping in touch better, but if anyone could let me know how I could get in touch with either of them, I'd be most grateful!
 Topic: Random Memories...whats yours?
Random Memories...whats yours? [message #3461] Tue, 23 September 2008 00:05
Messages: 3
Registered: April 2008
Location: BEAUTIFUL Indiana
Junior Member
I was wondering if any care to post random memories of Early F.A. Not necessarily the teaching but the buildings, surroundings and events that caused us to feel so unique. So, since I have a few, I'll go first.
My earliest memory is back at Claypool. I was a very young child at the time..about 6 or so. My family was there and we seemed to be one of the last ones to leave, alot.My dad prayed for people and preached too. P. was our childrens church teacher. It was at the Freemans house. I can still remember the floor plan. Anyways, I remember the contest of who could be the quietest. The nights got pretty long and kids get pretty wound up when it gets past their bed time. I never found out who won.
When that house got too small for the people that came we moved to J. E. 3 car garage by the lake. I remember how C. had this can of air freshner in the bathroom called 'roses roses'. That stuff smell sooo good. We loved spraying it. Their house was huge to me. But soon it got too small.
I went to the Glory Barn before it was remodeled. Mel was a friend of my father. He showed us the future plans of how the upstairs was going to be cleaned up and the walls repaired.(There were these big holes in the outside walls) The basement of the Barn had a ping pong table. The sheep shed section was converted into a small chapel. I remember the bunk beds in the end where I would fall asleep. Oh and the sugar cubes for the coffee. There were those salamander heaters that heated the downstairs and yes, the glorious field stone fire place. And the backless benches made out of logs that I think once were part of the barn. It was a very casual setting about 1972 or so.
I remember the night when we moved from the 3 car garage. They were packing up the chairs and I asked why. Someone told me we were moving to the Glory Barn. When we moved to the Barn, there were these big rolls of red indoor outdoor carpet that hadn't been laid yet.. I remember sitting on them during church. All that other work had been done. Another favorite seat was on the steps that went up to Mel's residence. Of course the top steps were Mel's familys seats. I loved going to the Upper Room Book Store. The comics that were for sale with 'Christian' Archie and the scary 'Chic' adult comics. My favorite thing was the COOL stickers! 'One Way Jesus' I would buy them and put them on my school folders.
On Sunday afternoons my sis and I would go to the 'N' trailer court and take guitar lessons with a few other kids my age. I don't remember how many months the lessons lasted but that talent has stayed with me to this day. Thank you Beverly from Michigan where ever you are. Oh, And I still have my 3 ring notebook you gave us too.
The Barn was an amazing set up. The goats, chicken coop, and field behind it. Sunflowers for seeds and huge gardens for canning. There was a wooded area way in the back that had paths in it. It was just amazing how it all disappeared so quickly later. The Love feast! And foot washings! All those people! Lining up to get seats on Sunday. The study off to the side of the pulpit.
The music was one of a kind for me. Guitars and more guitars. Blue Jeans were the norm.
Well, I think I will let someone else share a few memories....
 Topic: Brother Hodge
Brother Hodge [message #2039] Sat, 07 June 2008 03:42
grandom  is currently offline grandom
Messages: 404
Registered: October 2007
Senior Member
This past week Brother Ron (JWBTI) and myself had the blessed experience of meeting Brother Hodge and his wife Arlene and their friend Joy. They were in northern Indiana for the wedding of their grandson. It was just a few short hours but was one of the most uplifting times of my life that I will remember for all eternity.Brother Hodge has posted many faith filled posts on this forum and to meet him in person and see that he walks the talk is just tremendous. Here is a man who is walking out a very debilitating trial and is trusting Jesus totally for his healing.We went to minister to him if we could and we ended up being the ones who were blessed. He still is walking out some issues but he trust the Lord Jesus Christ with all his being and in this day and age I don't find many people who truly trust the Lord. That's not to say there aren't any but I find that even in scripture it asks will Jesus find any faith when he returns. I can say without a doubt that if he returned today he would find it in Hodge. What a privilege to have gotten to meet him and to see the faithfulness
Of Jesus.
Our belief is that he will be totally manifested and be able to give us some more faith filled posts.We join you brother Hodge in uplifting our risen saviour.
THE LOVEGREEN STORY [message #1219] Thu, 14 February 2008 10:55
Messages: 35
Registered: December 2007
Location: Auburn, Alabama

A C Valdez Sr., in his book Fire On Azusa Street, wrote

In those days—like today—skeptics loudly insisted that “the age of miracles is past.”

I could only answer, “It is past all right—past, present, and future—just as Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever.” So many miracles of all varieties happened—cures of “incurables,” reversal of sin-filled lives, and strange, supernatural events that couldn’t have occurred by coincidence.

I shall never forget the astounding series of major and minor miracles that occurred to a Mr. Lovegreen, a hotel owner in San Bernardino and Riverside counties of California.

Thirty years before, he had been a New York-based salesman who, with his wife, had traveled many times from city to city across country.

One day he told her, “I’m going west again.”

She sighed, “Dear, I’m tired of traveling. We’ve done it so much. I just can’t take it any longer.”

That was not the response Lovegreen had expected, and he be­came upset and then stubborn.

“All right, if that’s the way you feel, stay,” he replied. “But I’m going anyway?’

Just like that, he walked out of her life and headed for Califor­nia. Now, during that thirty years, he became an alcoholic, deathly ill and seemingly hopeless. One night he fell up against our San Bernardino mission door, which flung open. And there, lying on the floor, reeking of whiskey, was this large, once fine-looking man, hemorrhaging from his stomach.

When I reached him, he glanced up, hopelessness in his blood­shot, blue eyes. As more blood oozed from his mouth, he gasped.

What pity I felt for him!

“O, parson. Do something for me!”

Now the hemorrhaging stopped; he coughed, soon caught his breath and explained himself.

“Before my mother died, she prayed for me. While she was dying, she took me by the hand, looked into my eyes and said, “Son, I had hoped that, by this time, you would have given your heart to Jesus. Your mother would then have had the joy of seeing you a born again Christian. It seems I won’t have that pleasure. But, son, before I go, do me a favor. Put forth the effort to be a Christian and meet me in heaven. I’ll be watching for you through the eastern gate?”

“I said, ‘Yes, mother.’ Parson, what else could I say? But I con­fess to you, I haven’t tried”

The creases in the forehead of his ruddy face deepened in grave concern.

“A few hours ago, I came away from the doctor’s office. The lining of my stomach is gone—eaten out with alcohol. The doc­tor advised me; ‘Lovegreen, there’s nothing I can do for you now. Take my advice. Go right on drinking, because you won’t live long anyway. And if you’re drunk, you won’t know the difference.’ ”

Lovegreen’s watery eyes begged me as much as his voice.

“Parson, can’t you do something for me?”

“Yes, if you’ll promise to do something for me.”

“What’s that?”

Again he gasped for air, and blood oozed from his mouth.

“Come into the mission. Promise that you won’t leave until we pray through to God. Then you’ll have complete deliverance from alcohol, and I also promise that Jesus will heal your body and make you whole.”

As the path eased for an instant, he looked up at me with a flicker of hope.

“That’s the least I can do.”

I have dealt with many alcoholics, and their promises are often worthless. So I was still skeptical. Lovegreen slowly, painfully rose to his feet and followed me to the altar. In this mission, we had home-made, awkward-looking, heavy benches eighteen feet long. They served me well that night, because my wife, mother and I piled many of these benches against the back door.

Then we fell upon our knees and prayed. The spiritual battle was on. I don’t know how many times Lovegreen collapsed on the floor, but the devil spoke to me in no uncertain terms.

“Valdez, if you keep this man locked up in here, and he dies. you will be held for manslaughter?”

That sent fear racing through me. Unfortunately, what he had said was true. And I felt a terrible temptation to yield. But it wasn’t the voice of God. God doesn’t speak that way. The Lord says, “Come unto me all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.” So I turned and said— “Satan, get behind me in the Name of Jesus,” and the Spirit of the Lord rebuked the devil.

That was just the beginning of the story It was a night of strug­gle, and Lovegreen started screaming in an unearthly way. “Get those snakes off me!” he begged. He was having terrifying nightmares of delirium tremens. He thrashed and worked his hands to untangle snakes winding around his neck. “O, my God,” he cried, “Those witches and demons!”

We continued to pray with faith, through the night and into the early morning. At six o’clock, we were hoarse and exhausted but still holding on to God in his behalf.

By this time, he was beginning to flail his arms and crying out:

“Let me go! Open the door! Let me go!”

But I spoke sharply to him.

“You promised to stay until deliverance comes?”

A few minutes later, when my mother, wife and I were praying, the glory of God came down like a skyfull of light, filling the room. All of us looked up at the same time. A bright shaft of light fo­cused on Lovegreen’s face, and he shouted, “I’m saved, I’m saved, I’m saved.”

Not only was he gloriously born of the Spirit of God, he was also healed in body. His stomach was so well he was able to eat a large beef steak. He no longer wanted alcohol.

An urge to be with his wife had gnawed at him off and on for thirty years and was part of the reason for his alcoholism. They had been divorced and, in a generation, had not communicated with one another. Like him, she had never remarried.

On one morning, she felt a powerful desire to travel to Los An­geles. She didn’t know why. Although a Christian, she did not realize that God was leading her. Her train stopped at San Bernardino, and a strange urge made her take a layover in that city

The railroad station was then at least three quarters of a mile from the heart of town, so she drifted down on the left hand side of the street, looking for a hotel.

At that very instant, Lovegreen felt a strong desire to go for a walk, and he started down the same side of the street.

The woman coming toward him looked familiar. He blinked his clear blue eyes. The woman saw him and squinted to make sure. The man coming toward her looked so familiar.

Suddenly they were face to face for the first lime in thirty years.

Lovegreen felt a surge of warmth. She was beautiful—snow white hair, still a young face. How could she be even more lovely than before?

Similar feelings stirred her.

They gazed into each other’s eyes momentarily, and the years between melted away. Then they literally flew into each other’s arms.

When I learned from them what had happened, I knew that this wonderful reunion was a story written and directed by the Holy Spirit.

A few days later, they asked me to marry them. It was a I privilege and an honor for me.

This was just one of the many flames of Azusa Street.

THE EVIDENCE OF HIS POWER! [message #1216] Wed, 13 February 2008 13:18
Messages: 35
Registered: December 2007
Location: Auburn, Alabama

I want to tell you about a miracle and this miracle happened to me. How? By one prayer, after I had the correct instructions about divine healing.

Everything that we receive from God comes through His grace, by faith. I had multiple sclerosis for more than fifteen years. I could not walk around without stumbling and falling. Many times I was in a wheel-chair, I often broke my bones, but I firmly believed that the Lord was going to heal me. If there is no cure for the illness humanly speaking, it matters not: healing comes from God and there is nothing impossible with Him (Luke 1:37 “For with God nothing shall be impossible.”)

My church did not teach Divine healing, but my Bible does. So, if your church does not teach you about Divine healing, your Bible teaches it. Isaiah 53:5 says: "With His stripes we are healed." Isaiah 59:1 says: "Behold, the Lord's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither is His ear heavy that it cannot hear." Oh, He can hear your prayer right now.

Hebrews 13:8 says: "Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, and today, and forever." Did you ever have a Scripture come alive to you? This was the first one that became alive to me. When I read Hebrews 13:8, I knew definitely that "Jesus Christ is, the same, yesterday, today and forever."

Then I read about Moses. Moses said to God: "Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me. What is his name? What shall I say unto them? And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM." (Exodus 3:13-14).

These words put God in the present. He has never existed in the past. He is always the God of TODAY. Then I also read in Acts 10:34 that "God is no respecter of persons."

Then I said to God: "Lord, if Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever, and there is no respect of persons and by His stripes we were healed, then this is for me."

The Bible says that “faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God” (Rom. 10:17). We receive a measure of faith when we accept Jesus Christ as our personal Savior, but if we want that faith to increase; this has to come through the Word of God.

I became more and more paralyzed. One doctor told me that the day would come when I would be completely blind, and thus it was, the optic nerves were paralyzed leaving me completely blind. Then one day they told me not to stay alone for before the next 24 hours would go by I would be completely paralyzed --so it was.

The ambulance came and they took me to the hospital, but on the way I said to the boys that took me: "You forgot something?” They answered: "What did we forget Gertrude?" I said: "You did not bring my shoes." "Oh", they said: "What in the world is a paralyzed person going to do with shoes? You can't use them, you won't need them."

I said: "Oh yes, I am going to need those shoes! One of these days the Lord is going to heal me and I will need those shoes to get out of the hospital." I believed with all my heart that God was going to heal me, but I did not know how to appropriate my healing.

Many people came to pray for me. I firmly believe that all the prayers that were said by my family and friends in my behalf were heard by God. When we pray in faith for someone, God hears and considers that prayer. Perhaps the answer is delayed but it is never denied.

While I was in the hospital I had three heart attacks and one stroke. Every time they would put me under an oxygen tent, I would think: "There is room for two, Jesus and I." The nurse would come and say: "Don't say a word; you must not waste your breath." One does not have to speak in a loud voice to Jesus. I would pray and feel His presence and I knew the answer was on the way.

This was my prayer: "Oh, Lord, make me whole again, don't just make me better, but make me entirely whole again." I remembered how Jesus asked the impotent man: "Wilt thou be made whole?" and I answered to that question: "Yes, Lord, make me entirely whole again."

Spiritual Preparation for Healing

The Lord had to deal with me concerning many things. I had worked in the church for twenty-five years and thought I was doing pretty well but the Lord thought otherwise. One day He said to me: "Do you love your neighbor like yourself, all the time and all of them?" I answered: "No Lord, how can I, when some I don't even like?" He taught me how to love them through the love of Jesus Christ. Yes, you can love your neighbor through the love of Jesus Christ. He dwells in us and we in Him, so it is possible to love others such as He loves them.

The Lord also dealt with me concerning doubt, fear and unbelief, things that I never considered as sin. For three months He taught me about those things that were within me that were not according to His Holy will.

I finally became completely paralyzed so that I could not do one thing except talk to Jesus. I knew that the Lord was with me and when we know He is with us, we can stand all the disappointments in life. One day they covered me up with a sheet for they thought I was gone. I could move one hand, so when they saw that move, they came and took the sheet off.

Faith Unmovable

I was always asking those that came to visit me to bring my shoes. No one responded for everyone thought I would not need clothes or shoes. It wasn't their fault; they did not know Christ as their Healer. I would say to them: "Bring me some shoes, for when the Lord heals me I am going to need them."

One day the head doctor came to see me and said: "Gertrude, I would like to know your attitude about yourself." The night before I had suffered much thirst, as spasms produce thirst and they would not give me water at night for fear that I would swallow my tongue. Now came the question: "I want to know your attitude about yourself." I asked him if he wanted an honest answer, or if he wanted me to joke. He said he wanted an honest answer. So I answered: "I do not see myself here lying less than a human being." Then he said: "How do you see yourself?" I said: "I see myself walking with shoes on."

"Oh," he said, "I am sorry I ever asked you that question. That will never be! You will never be different from what you are now!" So, I answered: "According to you, I’ll never be different, but you have not considered my Lord. One of these days He is going to heal me and I will walk with shoes on."

His answer was: "Oh that is your imagination." He thought that for he did not believe the Bible, but I know that God gave me a faith vision concerning myself walking, just like He gave Abraham a vision when he was to go into a far country.

I was tired of being in that room in the hospital and one day I asked the nurses if they would take me outside and put me under a tree, for I knew there were trees out in the yard, having been in this hospital many times before, when I was in a wheel chair. They called for the head nurse and she said "Gertrude, do you realize that if we were to take you outside we would have to have enough men to carry you bed and all? Don't you think this is unreasonable?" Yes, I answered, I withdraw my request.

The Divine Answer

One day a woman came into my room, Beatrice by name, and asked me: "Do you believe that God can heal you and do you want me to pray?" I answered yes to both questions and she said a short prayer and left. As she was leaving the room, an audible voice said to me: "I sent this woman to you."

I was frantic for I had no way of knowing what the woman looked like, for I was blind, so I called on the person in the next bed and asked them to call this woman. When she was by my bed, I said to her: "God spoke to me and said that He sent you to me." Beatrice said, "I am so glad you called me back, I was in my home in Maryland when God spoke to me and asked me to come to Las Vegas, Nevada and visit all the incurable wards and ask people if they wanted me to pray for them. He added that one day a woman would say to me that God sent me to her. I was getting tired of getting a cold shoulder as I went around asking: Do you believe God can heal you and do you want me to pray?"

Oh, I am so happy that Beatrice obeyed God and traveled from one end of the country to the other to do His will. Once she knew who she was to pray for she started to fast without food and without water, in spite of the terrible heat, she obeyed our Lord. Every evening she would come to the hospital to pray for me, and everyday I was worse. She found me on July first and three nights after that on July fourth she was told that my grandson, who lived in this same city, had been called and asked to make arrangements to take care of my body.

When she got to my bed-side she asked: "Do you still believe that God can heal you?" My answer was yes. Then she asked: "Even now?" Again my answer was affirmative. This time she asked: "Do you realize that this is the last opportunity, it has to be now or never?" My answer was: "Yes I know this."

Beatrice then said: "If I bring you a glass of cold water and place it here beside your bed, do you believe that if you would drink it, it would quench the terrible thirst you have? Oh, I said, that is easy to believe. She said, "Now if I bring the glass of cold water and place it here by your bed but you do not drink it you would still believe that it would quench your thirst, but you would still be thirsty because you did not drink the water, though you believed. That is what you are doing with healing, you believe that God can heal you but there is no contact of faith, it is necessary that you accept your healing in a definite way, even as you accepted Christ as your personal Savior.

"There are many sinners who believe that Jesus died for their sins and was resurrected from the dead but they remain sinners because they do not accept salvation for themselves. That is what you are doing with healing, you believe that God can heal you, but it is necessary that you take this healing right now. That is true faith."

Oh, God knows the intentions of our heart. He knows our spiritual condition, He knows our spiritual stature, and He knows if we truly believe in His greatness and power.

Beatrice told me to raise my hands and pray. I lifted my heart to God and raised my one finger that I could move and said to the Lord: "Lord, I take my healing this moment, I take it like water, I accept it, I believe, but I am afraid."

Of a truth there is no room for fear. Fear indicates unbelief. I said to God: "I am afraid that you will ask of me something that I am not able to do. I fear that I am not capable of fulfilling that which you would ask of me."

The Lord then spoke to me in an audible voice and said: "Go and say that God healed you. Go to those that believe in divine healing and go to those who do not believe, those who mock and scorn and tell them that God healed you." I then answered: "Yes, Lord, I will go."

It was at this point that I saw Jesus standing by the side of my bed and when I saw Jesus I could see the entire room. Jesus had restored my sight! I must say here that when I say, I saw Jesus, I saw all except His face which was but a very bright light. Then the Lord touched me with the tips of His fingers and healed me completely.

Many have asked, "What did you feel?" I will tell you what I felt. Fire started to go from my head all through my body and my body had been like ice. The divine heat circulated all through my body and I started to feel my bones crack, for my muscles were like cement, my hands and feet were all twisted, my body was a big arch, my head and feet touching the bed but the rest of my body in the air.

My bones ached as the Lord was straightening them but it did not matter about the pain, for my eyes were on Jesus. When we have our eyes on Jesus, pain does not matter. He told me many things that night. He ordered me to stay in the hospital three days and three nights, that I might testify to all that God had healed me and speak about salvation in Him.

Jesus said to me: "I am not returning you to your old life. You cannot live your own life anymore. I am loaning your life to you that you might testify about Me. I will take, care of you." So, I know I am living on borrowed time, but that does not matter. The important thing is that I obey Him.

Many people have asked me: "What did you say to Jesus?" I'll tell you, when one is in the presence of the Lord, you do not say anything to Him, you listen to what He has to say and you will hear it with every fiber of your body and you will never forget it.

Live Testimony Is Effective

For a while after Jesus left, I did not get up, I had a bit of fear of saying that God had healed me. I was not prepared to tell them and they were not prepared to hear me. Of a truth the City of Las Vegas was not prepared to see the evidence of God.

Someone had finally brought me a pair of shoes, so I got up and put them on. Afterwards they asked me if it was difficult to walk, since I had not walked for such a long time. I said: "Oh no, it was difficult to stay on the floor, under the powerful anointing of God." I felt like I could float, for two weeks I felt like I was walking on my tip-toes.

I walked out in the hall and one of the patients who saw me raised his hands and said: "Glory to God, look what the Lord has done for Gertrude!" There were people in the hall and as they would see me they would fall on their knees and start to pray. They were calling on God upon seeing the evidence of someone who had been completely paralyzed, now walking.

I walked into the nurses' room, I did not mean to hurt them, but two of them passed out when they saw my face. They had to carry them out on stretchers. Later they told me that my face had been discolored and bags of water were under my eyes, when the Lord healed me He wiped it all off and gave me a natural face.

One of the head nurses came, she went into hysterics and said: "Gertrude, you can't be here because you can't sit and you can't walk and I have signed the last papers on you, you can't see and you can't stay here." Then I said to her: "Oh yes, I can be here, I am just like you, look at my hands, God has healed me, they are not like the hands of a paralytic person, I am just like you."

Then she said to me: "I know that you can't be alive, this is not you that is here. Tell me how many people helped you down the hall?" I said: "Just one." She said: "Please tell us who it was." I said: "It was Jesus Christ."

They called the superintendent of the hospital. He had known me for years, for I had been in and out of this hospital many times and he knew my condition. Now he said: "Gertrude, I am an unbeliever, but now that the Lord has come and worked a miracle in this hospital, this old hospital has rocked on its heels. Ever since Jesus came to heal you no one has worked in this part of the hospital, but that does not matter. Look what the Lord has done! Here was an unbeliever admitting that Jesus had worked a miracle. Hallelujah!

Yes, it was a miracle, for if it had been a healing I would have had to learn to walk. God left many signs for them. One was the sign of the bed. People would come and touch the bed and it would give them a shock. Then I understood that when Jesus came and anointed me for healing, He anointed the bed also and left it for a sign for the unbelievers.

The next morning they came to doctor a bed sore. I asked them: "Did you come to doctor me?" They said: "This is duty." I told them to go ahead and what a surprise when they found the place just like the palm of my hand. They exclaimed: "This truly is a miracle for the flesh had flaked away so that we could see the bone and it does not heal up like this!"

Praise God for His perfect work and signs for the unbelievers. Hallelujah! This did not take place in a corner but in a public place so that the people could see the manifestation of the power of God.

I told the director of the hospital that I would only be there for three days and three nights, but he answered: "Oh no, you have to stay 30 days for observation." I said: "It is impossible for Jesus told me to stay for only three days and three nights."

When it came time to sign the final papers the phone rang and the nurse said to the director: "It is your Chief of Staff." He answered: "Lay that phone down, for if I take that call the time will be past when Jesus Christ said Gertrude should go and I don't want that on me." Oh yes, they obeyed what the Lord had said!

Another thing they noticed was the change in my handwriting. Some said that I was not the same person. So I said to them: "I know you have a psychiatrist here in this hospital. Bring him here." He came and I said to him: "Take me to your part of the hospital and ask me any question you want to, for I am still me. Jesus came and made me whole again."

The psychiatrist looked at me for a while and then said: "Oh no, I will not examine you, for the One who performed the healing will give you the answers and I will be left there like a fool."

Many things happened in those three days and nights that I was in the hospital. They called my grandson, Tom, and asked him to come to the hospital immediately. He is the one who had been asked to prepare to take care of my body, I was walking down the hall when I saw him coming and called to him: "Look, Tom, look what the Lord has done for me, He came and made me whole again." Someone said to me: "Tom can't hear you, he is in complete shock." They worked on him for hours, when he came to he said: "When I saw you walking is when I went into shock. I never saw you walking before, I remember the grandma who pulled one foot and scraped the other. I remember the one who held to the walls, why didn't they tell me that Jesus had healed you?"

I still wanted to go outside and see the trees. I want to tell you this so that you will see how easy it is to get out of the Lord's will. The Lord told me to stay in the hospital three days and three nights. He did not say anything about going outside. But I still wanted to know what it would be like to breathe the fresh air.

I went outside and stood under one of the trees thinking: "This is just like I thought it would be, wonderful to see the trees and partake of the fresh air." Just then one of the nurses tapped me on the shoulder and said: "What are you doing here? Don't you know that the halls are fun of people wanting to know if you can really walk! When I heard this I knew that I had gone outside thinking only about myself and that I was outside of the will of God. Jesus wanted me to testify to the people.

As I stepped back into the hospital I saw a black man sitting in a wheel chair. As I got near him he asked: "Aren't you the woman that they used to bring to this hospital tied to a wheel chair so she would not fall?" I answered, "Yes I am she." He asked: "Aren't you the woman that used to fallout of bed with spasms?” I said: "Yes, I am she." Again he asked: "Are not you the woman who was blind?" "Yes," I answered, "I am she." He said: "Tell me about your Jesus, for I do not know Him." Oh, what a blessing it is to be in the will of God and be able to guide a soul to Jesus!

One day I was walking down the hall praising God when I saw a man on a stretcher at the door of the operating room. He was ready to be wheeled into the operating room to be operated on. He had witnessed my paralytic condition and when he saw me walking and praising God, he said: "If God can heal Gertrude, He can heal me too." He wrapped the sheet around him, got off the stretcher, went to his room, got dressed and walked right out of the hospital!

Two years later I met that man on the street and asked him if he had signed his dismissal papers and he said, no because Jesus Christ had dismissed him and he did not have to sign any papers. Then I asked him if he ever had that operation and he said: "No, I did not need it." The Lord knew that He was going to accept divine healing at the last moment, so He saw to it that the spinal that they gave him did not take effect: Hallelujah!

Bible Events Take Place

Those three days in the hospital I witnessed what is written in Mark 2:2: " And straightway many were gathered together, insomuch that there was no room to receive them, no, not so much as about the door: and he preached the word unto them." The people filled the halls day and night, even staying until 2 o'clock in the morning for they wanted to see the evidence of God.

In closing I want to tell you about Mr. Martin. He was in charge of us 8 hours a day. When Jesus came to heal me he had his day off, so the following day the Lord said: "Go to Mr. Martin." So I went to Mr. Martin and said: "Mr. Martin, look at me, Jesus came and made me whole again." He did not turn, he had his back to me, but rather said: "You go away woman." And I went away.

Again the Lord said: "Go to Mr. Martin." So I went the second time to him and said: "Mr. Martin, look at me, Jesus came and made me whole again." But Mr. Martin again refused saying: "You go away; I am not going to look at you."

I returned to the people standing in the hall and the third time the Lord said: "Go to Mr. Martin." So I went and this time I said: "Mr. Martin, please look at me, for Jesus has said to me three times: “Go to Mr. Martin and you know how far it is from my place with one hall going this way and one that way, so please look at me."

Then Mr.' Martin turned and said: "Yes, I am going to look at you. When I had my day off was the time you were to have died, that is why I did not want to look at you when you came the first time. When you came the second time I had heard rumors about a miracle of healing. I am a good Catholic and they do not teach me in my church that God can do miracles in my part of the hospital." Mr. Martin did not mind seeing a miracle but he wanted it in a church, he wanted it in a Cathedral. But God wanted it in a hospital so that many would hear the testimony and see the evidence of God.

Mr. Martin said: "When I turn around to see you I will have to admit that Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever. I will have to confess that He works miracles today, even in my section in the hospital." Mr. Martin has now returned to his country, Canada, but he has returned believing that Jesus Christ can do the same miracles that He did when here on this earth.

Once Mr. Martin accepted my healing he said: "Oh, let's do something, let's call your children, let's call that woman who prayed for you, let's do something!" Yes, when we see the reality of God and know that He has visited us we want to do something.

May God bless and use this testimony in the lives of all that read it! Mrs. Gertrude Ticer, P 0 Box 52, Seattle Heights, Wash. 98063

"Jesus said unto him.
If thou canst believe,
All things are possible to him that believeth.”

"And he said unto them,
This kind can come forth by nothing,
But by prayer and fasting"

(Mark 9:23 & 29)


Take no thought for food or raiment; take no thought for wealth or fame,
But seek first our Father’s Kingdom, and His righteousness proclaim,
He will give to you great treasures: grace abounding, joys untold.
Peace that passeth understanding and a faith worth more than gold.

Take no thought for those who scoff you nor for those who try to kill;
For our God is our defender and will hover o’er us still.
He will be our Shield and Buckler; He will banish all our fears;
In His arms He will enfold us and will wipe away our tears.

Take no thought for sinful pleasures; only seek to do His will,
And to follow where He leadeth and His purposes fulfill;
For the Kingdom He hath given---and to ALL who enter in
There is a rest for the weary, freedom from the power of sin.

“Take no thought,” He now entreats you; casting all your cares on Him,
Trust His great unfailing mercy and let not your faith grow dim,
Looking always to the Savior, let Him be your Friend and Guide;
Living daily in His presence, where no evil can betide.

Take no anxious thought for loved ones; they are in His loving care,
And the One who minds the sparrows surely hears and answers prayer.
Take no thought for Life’s Tomorrows; leave the future in His hands;
Hitherto, He has not failed you, for He cares and understands.
Louise L. Gardanier.

This is one of the greatest testimonies
of a Healing Miracle in our day, that I have ever read.
My wife and I have known Mrs. Ticer about seven years.
We have heard her give her testimony a number of times.
Mrs. Ticer lives by Faith! J. A. Dennis

If the Red Sea is before you,
Mountains to the left,
Desert to the right
And the Egyptians are galloping up behind,
Start praising God,
For the situation is ideal ……..
For a miracle! Peter Allard

Reprinted from: THE TEXAS HERALD
October 1971
Order from
P.O. Box 2156, Austin, Texas 78767

 Topic: Tommy Hick's Vision of the Sleeping Giant
Tommy Hick's Vision of the Sleeping Giant [message #1173] Thu, 07 February 2008 18:08
Derick N.  is currently offline Derick N.
Messages: 75
Registered: November 2007
I have this in print, but I remember hearing it on a tape once. I'm thinking it might have been at a Full Gospel Businessman's meeting or maybe before Bro Branham preached. Anywayz I was wondering if anybody had it?
A FRIEND'S TESTIMONY [message #1074] Thu, 20 December 2007 20:33
Messages: 35
Registered: December 2007
Location: Auburn, Alabama


I heard the words. I didn't know where they came from. I didn't know they were Scripture, but I knew they were true. The voice said, “This day thy soul is required of thee.”

It was 1986. I was 30 years old, and my life was wasted. I had been an alcoholic since a teenager. I was also a drug addict. I couldn't function without starting everyday by getting 'high' on marijuana. I had made a few vain attempts at religion, in treatment centers, or to escape troubles with parents or authorities, but always with selfish motives. Being raised in the “Bible-Belt,” I had a smattering of the gospel, but I was never convinced enough to believe that it was anything except modern man's mythology. I often tried to bargain with God, and when He wouldn't meet me on my terms, the devil was always quick to accommodate me.

But the devil always left me with the feeling that one day I would have to pay for his favors. So when I heard this voice, I knew my day of reckoning had come. Since I was so miserable and didn't have anything to lose, it came as somewhat of a relief. I had been living in an old run-down house way out in the country in south Alabama, where I was growing marijuana. Ever so often I would drive to my old hometown, which had a college campus, and sell some “pot,” or just party with old friends.

It was on one of these return trips to south Alabama when I heard the voice say that my soul was required. I was driving a small Honda Civic and decided to drive head-on into the first big 18-wheeler truck that came my way. I felt a “peace” about what I was doing, so firing up another joint (marijuana cigarette), I continued down the county road waiting for my opportunity to escape my miserable life. I hadn't gone but a couple of miles or so, when I looked and saw a little toddler {2 year girl) pushing a toy down the white stripe on the side of the highway. It startled me and I immediately pulled over and went to the child. It was a little girl. I couldn't see a house, and when I tried to ask the little girl some questions, she couldn't talk good enough to put a sentence together. I picked her up and walked back the way she had come, and came to a dirt driveway emerging through a thicket of pine trees. As I turned and walked down the driveway, I heard a man cry out, “Rachel, Rachel, O God, where's Rachel!” I saw him come running from the front of a house on the other side of the pine thicket.
For the first time in my life I felt like I had done something good. I felt like a hero, but God had a different purpose. The man and I met about halfway down the driveway. As we made eye contact, I began trembling. The father of the child was a person I had gone to high school with. He had been one of those “Jesus Freaks,” and had always been witnessing to me about salvation. In return, I always mocked him, or laughed him to scorn. He was always carrying a Bible and took advantage of every opportunity to pray or preach. I had thought he was ridiculous. This time was different. Suddenly I wasn't the hero I thought I was. He recognized me, and said my name as I handed him his child.

He sat the child down, turned, looked me right in the eye and asked, “How is your relationship with Jesus Christ?” I buckled at the knees as I told him, “I don't know Jesus. My life is wasted, and I had just been talking with the devil.” He invited me in his house, but I declined. I told him I had to get back on the road. His last words to me as I turned to leave were, “Before you do anything, try Jesus.”

I staggered back to my car, got in and sped away. I lit another joint but it had no effect. My mind was racing. I tried another joint but still no effect. Jesus was real. Jesus was greater. Jesus rescued me. He was my hero. I was certainly convinced, but I didn't know what to do with it. I was so flabbergasted at what had taken place; the hour and a half trip home seemed like five minutes. I went inside and lay across the bed and buried my head in the pillow. I began to talk to God. I said, “God, I've often called to you for help, and guess you always did, because I'm still alive. But I'm going to quit calling you God, because this man said to try Jesus.” So instead of saying, “God help me,” I cried out, “Jesus, please help me.”

At that instant the Prince of Peace came to me and gently removed my old wicked selfish heart and gave me a new one. He took away all condemnation, and translated me from the power of satan into His kingdom, an everlasting kingdom without end. At that moment I was born again, and when my feet hit the floor, I was walking in newness of life. I hadn't committed suicide that day, but I certainly died. Jesus, my Savior and Deliverer from suicide, was also my Creator, and He made me a new creation-old things passed away. He makes all things new simply because, “Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved”

I love you, Jesus. You're my Lord, my God and my Hero.


[Updated on: Thu, 03 January 2008 20:27]

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