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Forum: Bible Issues
 Topic: Strange Fire ??
Re: Strange Fire ?? [message #12517 is a reply to message #12130 ] Sun, 15 July 2018 14:37
Mark L  is currently offline Mark L
Messages: 590
Registered: October 2006
Location: Canada
Senior Member
I was reading recently on the Internets and ran across a post by John Macarthur waxing eloquent on his favourite subject. The subject interests me so I gave it a quick read. I didn't bookmark it so I can't give the site. My first thought was he must have been reading our notes here on the subject but then (sadly) reason took over and I realized many others have probably talked on this subject. Ah well fame as they say is fleeting. Very Happy Please note I'm relying on memory here and not quoting.

Anyway he said two things I want to give some of my thoughts on.

1/ He acknowledged that God acted supernaturally throughout the bible and not just mainly in 3 different periods. But then qualified it by saying miracles were a “sub-category” (his words) with different criteria. Or in other words yes God acts supernaturally but miracles are different.

My response to that is they are simply making artificial distinctions again. Miracles and the supernatural are just what God does every day.

2/ When Jesus or the apostles did a miracle the results were complete, immediate, permanent, undeniable. Again going by memory.

This was spoken to in above posts but I had some more thoughts I wanted to add.

So I guess the question here is . . . were Jesus (and by extension the apostles) miracles and healings complete, immediate, permanent, undeniable?

So several responses here.

First there is no evidence in the NT I can think of that shows healings or miracles in the NT were permanent or not. I think they probably were but there is much teaching in the bible on how we are to live so evil and sickness doesn't come upon us. Or that we keep the healings and answers to prayer we have. One eg here would be John 5/14. So unless we can come up with some evidence from the NT permanent (pro or con) is going to get tossed out.

Well how about complete and immediate! Some thoughts!

Well most of Jesus recorded miracles were complete and immediate for several reasons.

One is he had an abundance of spiritual gifts operating. I think it was the 40 day fast at the start of his ministry after his water and HS baptism that brought them into his life. There is absolutely no evidence that he did miracles etc prior to that and no one credible (charismatic or not) believes he did.

Another reason is there were times in his ministry that the anointing wasn't there. In that case he just used his faith. Mark 8/22-25
Exactly the same thing happened to both Elijah and Elisha when they raised the boys from the dead. No anointing and had to use their faith. Unfortunately Elisha didn't learn from that as he died from being sick.

I think aside from the gifts and anointing the reason he was so successful in prayer healing and miracles was because he had 30 yrs of preparation. It says in no uncertain terms in Heb. 4/15 and 5/8 that he had to learn!!! How to overcome sin and trial how to use his faith how to overcome the devil etc. He did not come out of the womb with all this knowledge.

He started with the same measure of faith we all have and went on from there. I'm not going to bog down with detail here but one can see in the NT mistakes Jesus made at the start of his ministry that he was able to he avoid later on.
Re: Strange Fire ?? [message #12518 is a reply to message #12130 ] Sun, 15 July 2018 15:00
Mark L  is currently offline Mark L
Messages: 590
Registered: October 2006
Location: Canada
Senior Member
Some more notes on the same subject. That being that Jesus had some kind of divine power to do miracles. Divine power as in something resident in himself as he was God in the flesh. Special miracle working power because of his divine nature.
I would be very surprised if MacArthur Pennington et al believed this as for the most part they are good theologians and orthodox in their theology. There are people that believe it though.

The point here is . . . did Jesus do miracles because he was God/divine and had access to power no else had?

The main biblical response to that is to point to the Kenosis. Most of us here would have a good understanding of that but for completeness sake . . .

The Kenosis of course is Christs self-empting. Phil. 2/6. KJV “made himself of no reputation” Greek is “emptied himself”

Jesus as God with all his power glory attributes wisdom authority etc. Everything you would expect God to have and be. He left it all behind. He temporarily laid aside the use of them. Emptied himself when he took on a human body. When he entered the womb and took on a human body there was nothing divine about him except his divine nature. Which was impossible to leave behind as that was who he is.

He was as human as us with all the human frailties we all have. The need to eat breathe procreate laugh cry have feelings. As a first born baby I'm sure there was all the usual comments when diapers were changed. As a toddler learning from mun and dad what the word “no” meant.

In short there was no difference between him and us except that divine nature and being born without the taint of original sin.

The point here is “he had to learn” How to walk how to eat how to work what spiritual things were all about. In short he had learn how to live a life just like we do.
He had to learn how to use his faith. He didn't come out of the womb with a strong faith he got it same way we do. Starting with a measure of faith.

He lived a complete normal ordinary human life with no access to anything special. No special powers or abilities. Totally human in every way. In his ministry he ministered with exactly the same power and abilities we have. Faith in his heart and baptized in the HS.
Re: Strange Fire ?? [message #12519 is a reply to message #12130 ] Sun, 15 July 2018 15:23
Mark L  is currently offline Mark L
Messages: 590
Registered: October 2006
Location: Canada
Senior Member
I'm on roll here so a few more thoughts. Contrary to everything I have just said there were times when Jesus divine nature actually manifested itself. Jesus had two natures divine and human. He was the only one like him.

Two egs.

1/ Matt. 5/21-22 The sermon on the mount. He pointed to the scriptures then said now here is what I have to say. No prophet or apostle would do that.

2/ Mark 1/41 Obviously this just my opinion but having said that it is my opinion that what is happening here is more than the anointing or a gift or faith in Jesus heart. I think this was the Godhead (Father Son and HS) That one divine essence with three separate personalities reaching out through the visible manifestation of itself to the man. God moved with compassion to a hurting human. Probably couldn't help himself. I think this is one of the more precious verses in the bible.

The reason I'm including this in this discussion is because the visible manifestation of the Godhead we call Jesus had no power in himself to heal the man. He had left all that behind. It had to be the HS doing it. Jesus had no special power to heal or do anything else supernatural. He had faith and gifts. Obviously this is a subjective opinion but as I said my opinion is it was the the Godhead reaching out through the visible manifestation of itself.

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