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Psychic Phenomena [message #11596] Fri, 12 June 2015 03:36 Go to next message
Gary  is currently offline Gary
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I decided to read the book, Kingdom of the Occult, by Walter Martin, and several other writers. There's some interesting information in the book but I kind of wondered about a paragraph concerning William Branham under the section called psychic phenomena.

Here's the passage:

Quote:

William Marrion Branham (1909-1965), was an American psychic healer who traveled from one end of the country to the other, preaching a variety of gospels and laying hands on people in an effort to heal them. Some miraculous healings did occur, all carefully chronicled. When asked in an interview if the Holy Spirit was responsible for the healing, Branham admitted that his "angel" did it. This angel told Branham what to say and do, and he ended up denying the Holy Trinity and many other Christian doctrines. "Not one place in the Bible was trinity ever mentioned....It's Catholic error, and you Protestants bow to it."


While I believe many healings took place back at that time, I don't understand the situation concerning an "angel" being the one coming to do the healing. I remember reading that William Branham stated once that he never could do anything until the "angel" showed up at his meetings.

No where in the Gospels do we find angels doing the healing, but we only see healing done by faith in Jesus Christ.

Either way I'm only showing what Walter Martin is pointing out in his book. I don't know if this could be truly labeled as psychic healing though.

Gary



Re: Psychic Phenomena [message #11597 is a reply to message #11596 ] Fri, 12 June 2015 22:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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Hey Gary,

I agree about what you say about 'the angel' and from what I understand this 'angel' played an important role in William Branham's life. I've heard some of Branham's sermons where he actually speaks about the angel's influence and the prominence of this 'being' in his life.

Don't misunderstand the next statement because I'm only making a comparison and I'M NOT SAYING THAT BRANHAM WAS A MEDIUM.

The comparison of how a medium operates and how Branham described the operation of his gift is very similar. The medium, it seems, becomes almost a passive conduit for the spirit to work through and without this passivity there is no active manifestation of the work of the demon.

Now some of these similarities may be just a result of the way we use language... we might say something like "the Holy Spirit used us to accomplish healing",or some other work, and some might interpret that as meaning that we were merely passive robots being used by the Holy Spirit to accomplish His will, i.e. the Holy Spirit took over our faculties as we watched all of it unfold. This could almost be interpreted as 'Holy Spirit possession' in the same way we would speak of demonic possession.

Hopefully this wouldn't be our intended meaning because the Bible presents believers as being ACTIVELY involved in cooperation with the Holy Spirit's work. We don't cease to have volition in these things but again I can see how it might be interpreted in that way because of the way we speak about such things. In other words I could see that this type of situation could come about because of our own ignorance in understanding how the Holy Spirit works and that ignorance is perpetuated by continually using that kind of language.

Now back to Branham's experience... it would be helpful to know whether or not he considered the 'angel' to be Jesus. I don't want to speak unadvisedly here because I'm not sure if I've remembered correctly but with that said, I believe I heard, or read somewhere, that he stated that the angel was not Jesus. If that is truly the case then I would definitely have a problem with an angel being the source of the healings.

(As I'm writing this I just remembered John 5:4f where the angel troubled the waters at the pool at Bethesda... so I'd better not rule it out completely! <grin>)

Hopefully some others will jump in with some thoughts!

Blessings,
William

[Updated on: Sat, 13 June 2015 00:33]


I want to believe!
Re: Psychic Phenomena [message #11598 is a reply to message #11597 ] Sat, 13 June 2015 09:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
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I'm not sure if I've taken the right approach or not, but since I didn't witness what is written in these books (William Branham, Katherine Kullman, Anna Schrader, and the others that HEF used to mention <and was probably influenced by>) I don't give it a lot of thought. I do remember when Todd Bentley was at Lakeland, Florida and we were discussing that 'revival' and Bentley's actions, there was mention of an angel named Emma and Branham's name came up.


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: Psychic Phenomena [message #11599 is a reply to message #11598 ] Sat, 13 June 2015 19:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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I'd forgotten about "emma"! I need to go back and re-read some of those old threads.

Blessings,
William


I want to believe!
Re: Psychic Phenomena [message #11600 is a reply to message #11599 ] Sat, 13 June 2015 19:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
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Better set aside a few hours cause that thread on Lakeland/Bentley wuz a loooong one.(and that's with Hombre's posts deleted, imagine how long it'd be with his input. Smile


Afterthought: I know angels were assigned many tasks as revealed in scripture...BUT, angels NEVER drew attention away from God/Jesus. Even with all the things John was allowed to see<Revelation>, the angels ALWAYS made sure they let it be known that Jesus and HIM alone was worthy of worship and praise and bowing down to.

[Updated on: Sat, 13 June 2015 19:57]


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: Psychic Phenomena [message #11601 is a reply to message #11600 ] Sat, 13 June 2015 20:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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Yep, I've been reading since I last posted and there is still a lot more. Hombre's messages would have no doubt doubled the size of the thread!!

Since Gary posted I've been thinking about knee-jerk reactions to things (I'm not speaking specifically about Gary's topic but just our reactions in a general sort of way to things we were taught.)

Looking back at the the religious leaders in the first century shows us that they rejected things when it didn't fit into their nicely wrapped theology... I'm trusting that we don't fall into the same category when it comes to these end-times.

For example, what if something happens that has never been seen before? Should we reject it simply because we can't find a verse that supports it? I think that maybe we should seek to determine whether or not the 'miracle' or the 'sign' does an injustice to what we know about God before we jump to the conclusion that it is wrong simply because we don't have a verse that we can use to support some weird occurrence.

God speaking through a donkey would not have passed the test of orthodoxy at the time it happened but God did it anyway!

Blessings,
William

[Updated on: Sat, 13 June 2015 20:28]


I want to believe!
Re: Psychic Phenomena [message #11602 is a reply to message #11601 ] Sun, 14 June 2015 06:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gary  is currently offline Gary
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william wrote on Sat, 13 June 2015 21:25

Yep, I've been reading since I last posted and there is still a lot more. Hombre's messages would have no doubt doubled the size of the thread!!

Since Gary posted I've been thinking about knee-jerk reactions to things (I'm not speaking specifically about Gary's topic but just our reactions in a general sort of way to things we were taught.)

Looking back at the the religious leaders in the first century shows us that they rejected things when it didn't fit into their nicely wrapped theology... I'm trusting that we don't fall into the same category when it comes to these end-times.

For example, what if something happens that has never been seen before? Should we reject it simply because we can't find a verse that supports it? I think that maybe we should seek to determine whether or not the 'miracle' or the 'sign' does an injustice to what we know about God before we jump to the conclusion that it is wrong simply because we don't have a verse that we can use to support some weird occurrence.

God speaking through a donkey would not have passed the test of orthodoxy at the time it happened but God did it anyway!

Blessings,
William




I know what you mean here. If the Lord decides to move in a certain way, we would not want to be found opposing what He was doing.

I also thought about the Angel coming down and troubling the waters after I wrote this post. All we see is Jesus coming up and healing a man, then we learn that the man was waiting on this angel to trouble the waters so he could get in the water and be healed. It appears like it was some normal situation accepted by everyone in that day and time.

I read Gordan Lindsay's account of traveling with William Branham and it was all positive concerning the healings but he thought Branham was very gullible and easily influenced by other people. Freda Lindsay's book sounded like she felt Branham was very unreliable and he never kept his word. Either way no one ever questioned some Angel coming in the meeting and healing everyone. Gordon was constantly preaching against the occult and I think he was sensitive to the Spirit of God.

Branham would know the peoples names, addresses and some personal information that he told them before they were healed. I always thought the angel revealed this to him and it quickened peoples faith. I seen some old videos of him praying for people at these meetings and he would tell them things about their condition every time he prayed, at least in the video I saw.

The thing I constantly try to remember is that the Word of God is our lamp to our feet and the light to our path. I don't remember the Apostles getting help for healing people, but Paul had an angel tell him that the ship he was on was going to be destroyed but that everyone would live, also Peter had an angel come and let him out of prison. Maybe angels were more involved in the first century church then what we give them credit for and its been overlooked.

It can go either way good visitations that help the church and bad visitations (angels of light) that lead to deception.

Gary










Kingdom of the Cults [message #11603 is a reply to message #11602 ] Wed, 17 June 2015 05:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gary  is currently offline Gary
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I don't know if I would recommend this book to anyone at this point in time.

First off he says hypnotism is occultic and then turns around and excuses Medical hypnotism.

The problem with medical hypnotism who is to say it does not cause other problems in a persons mind. Its interesting to note that medical science has stated they do not know how hypnosis works on an individual.

Secondly the book endorses natural ESP. Stating that a person can have ESP and it not be occultic. Sounds like a double standard.

When I ran across these statements it just did not sound right. Don't know at this point if I will finish this book or recommend it to anyone. Just my opinion here, but any involvement in the Occult is an open door to the demonic spirit realm.

Gary




Re: Kingdom of the Cults [message #11741 is a reply to message #11603 ] Sun, 13 September 2015 14:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mark L  is currently offline Mark L
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Well here is my take on William Branham.

I think he was very unschooled unlettered and ignorant in theology. Tremendous anointing yet at the same time simply didn't know the basics of the xian faith. There is a line one can't cross where it comes to what we believe. I don't think he crossed that line. One very good reason why I think that is because Bro Freeman said . . . I know he had some funny theology but I still believe he was a prophet.

I don't have any slavish obedience to Freeman but I do have tremendous respect for him and on this issue I'm taking his word for it.

I've heard all kinds of strange things about Branham. Not sure if any of them are true.

Where it comes to the angel I just wish that ministers would just be careful how they speak and say things. It can have such an effect. As I said he was unschooled unlettered ignorant and rude in the schooled sense.

I think his description of the angel was accurate. I do believe it was the angel who had charge over his ministry that did most of the actual healing and miracles. I think that is true for all xian ministries. I don't have any neat tidy answer for how it all works or how that works with the gifts of the spirit or speaking in tongues etc. I just believe angels are very much a part of everything spiritual going on.

Rev. 2-3 show it is an angel who has charge over every church. Ps 91 he has given his angels charge over you. They are the one that do most of the work in our lives. There is much in the book of Daniel on this showing their work in setting up the rulers and governors of the world.

I don't want to sound like a Freemonite here but he believed angels did most of the healing as well. I also think that when healing or answers or miracles happen regardless of how we believe it came we point to the Lord. I just wish Branham had been more careful how he spoke.

There is a scriptural balance on this stuff. Col 2/18. For me a scriptural balance is to be aware they are involved in all aspects of life but you don't go chasing after them.


Off topic here but . . . I just made some stewed plums. Do you guys eat them? If there is any better food to be had I don't what it is.

[Updated on: Sun, 13 September 2015 17:05]

Re: Kingdom of the Cults [message #11747 is a reply to message #11741 ] Tue, 15 September 2015 05:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gary  is currently offline Gary
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Mark L wrote on Sun, 13 September 2015 15:02

Well here is my take on William Branham.

I think he was very unschooled unlettered and ignorant in theology. Tremendous anointing yet at the same time simply didn't know the basics of the xian faith. There is a line one can't cross where it comes to what we believe. I don't think he crossed that line. One very good reason why I think that is because Bro Freeman said . . . I know he had some funny theology but I still believe he was a prophet.

I don't have any slavish obedience to Freeman but I do have tremendous respect for him and on this issue I'm taking his word for it.

I've heard all kinds of strange things about Branham. Not sure if any of them are true.

Where it comes to the angel I just wish that ministers would just be careful how they speak and say things. It can have such an effect. As I said he was unschooled unlettered ignorant and rude in the schooled sense.

I think his description of the angel was accurate. I do believe it was the angel who had charge over his ministry that did most of the actual healing and miracles. I think that is true for all xian ministries. I don't have any neat tidy answer for how it all works or how that works with the gifts of the spirit or speaking in tongues etc. I just believe angels are very much a part of everything spiritual going on.

Rev. 2-3 show it is an angel who has charge over every church. Ps 91 he has given his angels charge over you. They are the one that do most of the work in our lives. There is much in the book of Daniel on this showing their work in setting up the rulers and governors of the world.

I don't want to sound like a Freemonite here but he believed angels did most of the healing as well. I also think that when healing or answers or miracles happen regardless of how we believe it came we point to the Lord. I just wish Branham had been more careful how he spoke.

There is a scriptural balance on this stuff. Col 2/18. For me a scriptural balance is to be aware they are involved in all aspects of life but you don't go chasing after them.


Off topic here but . . . I just made some stewed plums. Do you guys eat them? If there is any better food to be had I don't what it is.


Hi Mark,

I feel like we don't have to ever be ashamed of our heritage and what we went through. I know many look down at and belittle it, but the situation is that God is in Sovereign control and what anyone goes through in life has been foreordained by the Lord and is a learning experience and is for our good. When I see the horrid conditions that Christians are having to endure around the world, I am not going to feel bad because of anything I went through, what happened just happened, now its over and I want to remember and learn from it.

If we could go back into the past and had a choice I would not change anything except my understanding of walking with Jesus and spending more time with Him. We never had it half as bad as what some are going through in other countries. A friend of mine from Russia told me one time we were all just a bunch of "Spoilt Americans".

Gordan Lindsey worked with Branham for years and was actively involved with his ministry. He always gave Glory to the Lord concerning this ministry and never had a problem with what took place. He did say at one point that Branham was gullible and easily influenced by other people who had ulterior motives.

Gordon has a lot of good books warning Christians about the occult but never once had a problem with the manifestation of this angel in the meetings.

I think sometimes that when a man has an anointing from God he becomes a target for the devil to attack because he is tearing down the works of darkness in peoples lives.

I had wondered about this angel as well because it did not fit my line of thinking, but now I think there is more here then what we realize. Concerning Angels, I am beginning to see what you are saying and agree. Jesus told one of His disciples that:

Quote:



And He said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, hereafter you shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of Man.”




While going through the Gospels I am continually seeing Angels ministering even from the time before Jesus was born.

Like you said: There is a scriptural balance on this stuff. Col 2/18. For me a scriptural balance is to be aware they are involved in all aspects of life but you don't go chasing after them.

Very well put and I think we should be aware that God has many avenues in which He helps us in our journey on this earth.

Someone stated in a post once what if God did something different in the earth that we was not aware of, would we question what the Lord was doing because we did not have some scripture to prove it? I think there's a good point here, we don't throw out our discernment but realize that God is God and He can do whatever He wants in this world, we just have to submit and follow the Lord. Hope that came out right.

Gary



Re: Psychic Phenomena [message #11781 is a reply to message #11596 ] Wed, 30 September 2015 09:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mark L  is currently offline Mark L
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I just ran across this wiki article on Branham which I thought was quite good.

From the article . . .

Gordon Lindsay's eulogy stated that Branham's death was the will of God and privately, he accepted the interpretation of Kenneth Hagin, who claimed to have prophesied Branham's death two years before it happened. According to Hagin, God revealed that Branham was teaching false doctrine and God was removing Branham because of his disobedience.[54][55]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_M._Branham
Re: Psychic Phenomena [message #11789 is a reply to message #11781 ] Sat, 03 October 2015 05:11 Go to previous message
Gary  is currently offline Gary
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Mark L wrote on Wed, 30 September 2015 10:22

I just ran across this wiki article on Branham which I thought was quite good.

From the article . . .

Gordon Lindsay's eulogy stated that Branham's death was the will of God and privately, he accepted the interpretation of Kenneth Hagin, who claimed to have prophesied Branham's death two years before it happened. According to Hagin, God revealed that Branham was teaching false doctrine and God was removing Branham because of his disobedience.[54][55]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_M._Branham



I had always heard that the Lord took Branham early in his life because he was getting into error and deception.

But now I have mixed emotions the more I read or hear concerning this man. For one thing he was not just getting into a little bit of error but was involved in teaching full blown heresies. Not just one doctrine but several. Surprisingly this was never played up in our group but he was always promoted as a prophet that was starting to get off a little.

I can picture the scenario that if a man had a gift and people were healed of all manner of disease, that this individual could persuade many people with wrong doctrines. People tend to look at the miracles, healings, visitations of angels, charismatic personality, etc., and never question what a person is saying, thinking this has to be of God.

Only someone grounded in the scriptures through Bible based teaching would be able to discern the heresy, otherwise how would anyone be able to tell that something is not in the scriptures and is heretical. People have a natural tendency to become lazy and will not take the time to seek it out for themselves. Even if a teaching seems Bible based you still have to take a look to see what is the Bible saying. I make mention of this because the scriptures teach that at the end of time, deception will be so evident on the earth that if it were possible even the elect would be deceived.

I'm thinking at this point in time it seems like charismatics are more likely to fall into deceptions, especially if they are looking at a personality that has some gifting or anointing. I have found that whatever ministry a person sat under initially when they first receive salvation, that this has the greater influence on what they think concerning how they look at the Bible.

Somewhere along the line everyone (no matter what group around the world) who is serious with the Lord should be willing to take a serious look at what they were taught. I don't think anyone can just set back and think the Spirit of God is going to lead us into all truth without being actively engaged with following the Lord. For instance there's no effort in setting in a pew and just listening to sermons versus being like the Berean's and searching out the scriptures to see if things being taught are in the Word of God.

Secondly, after reading the article I realized that people tend to put prophets or apostles or even angels, on a platform and make them infallible. While Jesus clearly taught were to be servants or slaves, as he was our example, we see many seeking after thrones or some type of future exaltation. The bigger the ministry the better in other words, is the attitude of most.

Remember that a adulterous and perverse generation seeks after signs. Anyway, I thought the article was interesting to read, thanks for sharing it.


Gary










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