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Re: Church Government [message #11167 is a reply to message #11163 ] Tue, 06 May 2014 16:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mark L  is currently offline Mark L
Messages: 435
Registered: October 2006
Location: Canada
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OK just checking! Smile
Re: Church Government [message #11192 is a reply to message #11163 ] Fri, 09 May 2014 18:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gary  is currently offline Gary
Messages: 870
Registered: August 2008
Location: Indiana
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In light of this discussion I thought this article on leadership in the church and having fancy titles was quit apropos. This was shared originally on several Christian sites. There seems to be a need for fancy titles in Christian circles these days:

Quote:



A Message to Rev. Dr. Apostle Grand Poobah by Lee Grady


A Message to His Holy Highness the Worshipful Bishop Rev. Dr. Apostle Grand Poobah

Jesus just wasn’t into titles. We shouldn’t be either.

I am often asked if I have a title, and my answer doesn’t satisfy some people. I travel a lot, so I don’t consider myself a pastor. All kinds of labels have been pinned on me: Reverend, prophet, apostle … even bishop. Once I was introduced to a church as “Dr. Grady” and I almost crawled under my seat. I only have a college degree. There are no letters after my name.

I tell people: “You can call me Lee. Or if you want to sound formal, you can say, ‘Brother Grady.’”

“Jesus is the King of Kings, the Lord of Lords, the Son of David, the Prince of Peace and the Apostle of our Confession. Yet when He came into this world He laid aside His heavenly glory and took on the lowly name of Jesus.”

Today it seems we’ve developed a title fetish. For a while everyone in charismatic circles was becoming a bishop (and some were installed into this office with rings, robes and funny-looking hats). Then the same guys with the pointy hats started calling themselves apostles. Then the prophets got jealous and started calling themselves apostles too! I knew one lady who, not to be outdone, required people to call her “Exalted Prophetess.”

Now the latest fad is requiring church folks to address certain people as apostles. (As in, “When Apostle Holy Moly arrives, please only address him as, ‘Apostle,’ and then make sure he is seated in a private room while his two adjutants, wearing dark glasses, guard his door.”) They’ve even invented an elaborate theology to go along with this ridiculous rule. It suggests that you can’t receive the true anointing from a man of God if you don’t honor him with the right title.

Sounds so very ooo-ooh spiritual to the naive. But it’s garbage.

Jesus didn’t play this religious game, especially when he was around the Grand Poobahs of His day—the long-robed scribes and Pharisees. After accusing them of loving the best seats in the synagogues, He pointed out that they loved to be called “Rabbi” by men (see Matt. 23:7).

Then He warned them: “But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers. … the greatest among you shall be your servant. Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled; and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted” (v. 8-12, NASB).

People have quibbled over these words for centuries, insisting that ecclesiastical titles are not the problem; pride is what Jesus was rebuking. I would agree that Jesus was going to the root sin. But He was also asking these title-crazy guys if they’d be willing to ditch their labels and act like normal people.

When I was in China several years ago, I met some amazing leaders who had planted thousands of congregations. They had also spent a lot of time in jail for their faith, and they’d been beaten with iron rods for preaching the gospel. They were the bravest apostles I’ve ever met. But when I asked them if they used “apostle” as a title, one guy said: “We believe in those roles in the church. But we prefer to call each other ‘brother’ or ‘sister.’”

That settled it for me. A few years later I met Iftakhar, a Pakistani apostle who has oversight of 900 churches. He also has two scars on his arm from gunshots fired by Muslim extremists who have put a price on his head. When I asked him how I should address him, he smiled and said, “Iftakhar.”

If these two giants of the faith—and true apostles—don’t require to be addressed with titles, then Your Worshipful Grand Master Rev. Dr. Bishop Jones (who claims oversight of maybe four churches) shouldn’t wear his ministry role around his neck like a tacky neon name badge.

If people can’t see the anointing on your life through your character, then don’t cheapen the gospel by wearing a title you don’t deserve.

I’m not saying people shouldn’t use reverend, minister or even bishop to identify their roles in the church. But can we please dispense with the insecurity, and the childish “I’m more important than you” appellations, and get back to the simplicity of the gospel? Let’s get over ourselves!

Jesus is the King of Kings, the Lord of Lords, the Son of David, the Prince of Peace and the Apostle of our Confession. Yet when He came into this world He laid aside His heavenly glory and took on the lowly name of Jesus. He wore no fancy robes. He demanded no titles. He did not come to be ministered to, but to minister. If we want to serve Him honorably, we must forsake our need for fame and cast our crowns at His feet.




Gary





Re: Church Government [message #11193 is a reply to message #11192 ] Fri, 09 May 2014 19:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Marilyn Crow  is currently offline Marilyn Crow
Messages: 531
Registered: September 2013
Location: Australia
Senior Member
Hi Gary,

So true, (the article) and here is some more that I received today.

Equipping Without Subduing (#439)
by Wayne

I get asked a lot of questions about elders and the five-fold ministry gifts of Ephesians 4. We know how religion has captures these terms and used them for top-down managers that often abuse people wittingly or unwittingly by thinking they have the responsibility to command others in Jesus' name. But what are they in the new creation? Instead of managing people or systems, the real fulfillment of these gifts is to equip others to live freely in Jesus, not to subdue them with their own wisdom or agendas. Our ministry contracts take people down this road all the time by making it more about the gift and their need for a following, rather than serving those who want to know him.



Wayne has a site called `the God journey.`





Marilyn C
Re: Church Government [message #11196 is a reply to message #11193 ] Fri, 09 May 2014 19:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gary  is currently offline Gary
Messages: 870
Registered: August 2008
Location: Indiana
Senior Member
Marilyn,

I believe if a "Man of God" has the anointing he does not have to say anything about titles. God's presence working through him will confirm to the believers that its genuine.

Have you heard of the great Indonesian revival that took place in the sixties and early seventies? I saw on the map where your not to far from there. Anyway I was able to hear a brother preach that came from that revival it was the strongest anointing of the Spirit I had ever experienced, some of the things he shared was supernatural understanding of the Bible. If you know what I mean.

His testimony was a blessing from the Lord, I believe his name was Mel Tari.

Gary



Re: Church Government [message #11197 is a reply to message #11196 ] Fri, 09 May 2014 20:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mark L  is currently offline Mark L
Messages: 435
Registered: October 2006
Location: Canada
Senior Member
I understand what you guys are saying but I do think if a man(women) stands in an office there is a place for saying it right out loud. Trying to be a grand poobah is one thing Just trying to fullfill a ministry is another.

To put it in different terms . . . If someone is going around making a big deal out of being a minister apostle prophet etc that is one thing. But to simply try to fullfill ones ministry is another.

I am of the opinion if a man has a true call to the apostolic/prophetic office he should (at the proper time) say so right out loud. Rev 2 says the sheep have the right to check fruit. Jesus said we will know the true and false by their fruit. Matt 6

I was taught that prophets/apostles don't carry calling cards. The point being they don't need to. I disagree entirely. Not using calling cards or business cards but making himself and his ministry known.

I think that apostles and prophets are going to be coming on the world scene in large numbers and we have to be able to check fruit to know who is of the Lord and who isn't.

To make it a little more personal and I'm not endorsing anyones ministry here. I did appreciate Bro. apostle coming here and making himself known the way he did. He said exactly what his office was what his purpose in coming here was and then offered a "little" fruit for checking. ie he told us how he got his ministry.

Now I am not endorsing or criticizing apostle. I'm simply commenting on the issue of senior ministry in the church making themselves known.
Re: Church Government [message #11200 is a reply to message #11197 ] Sat, 10 May 2014 03:48 Go to previous message
Gary  is currently offline Gary
Messages: 870
Registered: August 2008
Location: Indiana
Senior Member
Mark L wrote on Fri, 09 May 2014 20:11

I understand what you guys are saying but I do think if a man(women) stands in an office there is a place for saying it right out loud. Trying to be a grand poobah is one thing Just trying to fullfill a ministry is another.

To put it in different terms . . . If someone is going around making a big deal out of being a minister apostle prophet etc that is one thing. But to simply try to fullfill ones ministry is another.

I am of the opinion if a man has a true call to the apostolic/prophetic office he should (at the proper time) say so right out loud. Rev 2 says the sheep have the right to check fruit. Jesus said we will know the true and false by their fruit. Matt 6

I was taught that prophets/apostles don't carry calling cards. The point being they don't need to. I disagree entirely. Not using calling cards or business cards but making himself and his ministry known.

I think that apostles and prophets are going to be coming on the world scene in large numbers and we have to be able to check fruit to know who is of the Lord and who isn't.

To make it a little more personal and I'm not endorsing anyones ministry here. I did appreciate Bro. apostle coming here and making himself known the way he did. He said exactly what his office was what his purpose in coming here was and then offered a "little" fruit for checking. ie he told us how he got his ministry.

Now I am not endorsing or criticizing apostle. I'm simply commenting on the issue of senior ministry in the church making themselves known.


I agree with what your saying and I think Lee Grady was presenting the other side of the coin with people trying to impress the body.

On the other hand I was remembering when someone a while back, came on here and was bashing things we were taught which "are found" in the Bible in principle, he never would reply to anyone's questions. Trying to explain away "now faith is the substance of things hoped for", and other teachings.

William asked a number of questions concerning this issue of leadership and was never given any type of reply. The Apostle Paul wrote in his letters to the churches and was never vague but was willing to share before all. After all "the ministry" is there to help the body with wisdom and understanding and not try to avoid them.

One more thing its called body ministry and the ground is always level at the foot of the cross. Were to honor and esteem the ministry but when they cannot answer simple questions there should be some concern. They are there to build up and edify the body of Christ, it's at least part of their calling.

Hope this makes sense and is understood in the right spirit of things mentioned.










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