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Re: Manchild rapture wrong?? [message #10216 is a reply to message #10212 ] Tue, 05 November 2013 04:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
wishing34  is currently offline wishing34
Messages: 212
Registered: March 2009
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Marylin,

you said:

Quote:

It only relates to what God says is His symbol & of course the context.

. . .

we know by its context & also by God`s use of that symbol that it is God the Father`s voice.




God never said the trumpet was a symbol for a voice. Not in Rev 4:1 or anywhere.

There is no context to say the trumpet is a voice.

The verse says the voice was like a trumpet. Same as one might say the man's voice was
like thunder.



You are seeing what is not there. It is painted on the window glass.






Jman







---sig------------------------------------------------------ ------------

At the time of this post . . .

FA, the satellites, the spinoffs,and the FA diaspora have been having church
without apostles for 41 years and 309 days.
Initial start date 1/1/72


Recommended: No faith stands that strongly impact our (our children's) lives until we figure out
why the signs and wonders are missing. Something is wrong.







[Updated on: Tue, 05 November 2013 05:03]






Re: Manchild rapture wrong?? [message #10217 is a reply to message #10216 ] Tue, 05 November 2013 06:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gary  is currently offline Gary
Messages: 870
Registered: August 2008
Location: Indiana
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Meaning of the word "symbol":


1sym·bol
noun \ˈsim-bəl\

: an action, object, event, etc., that expresses or represents a particular idea or quality

: a letter, group of letters, character, or picture that is used instead of a word or group of words

Full Definition of SYMBOL


1: an authoritative summary of faith or doctrine : creed


2: something that stands for or suggests something else by reason of relationship, association, convention, or accidental resemblance; especially : a visible sign of something invisible <the lion is a symbol of courage>


3: an arbitrary or conventional sign used in writing or printing relating to a particular field to represent operations, quantities, elements, relations, or qualities


4: an object or act representing something in the unconscious mind that has been repressed <phallic symbols>


5: an act, sound, or object having cultural significance and the capacity to excite or objectify a response
Re: Manchild rapture wrong?? [message #10218 is a reply to message #10217 ] Tue, 05 November 2013 06:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
GWB  is currently offline GWB
Messages: 713
Registered: March 2008
Location: Louisville, Ky area
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Let me just throw this out there.


Maybe I am wrong, but I always thought a trumpet, especially in the OT, referred to a shofar.

A shofar is made out of ram's horns, among other things. It takes some doing to learn how to blow the thing, but once you learn how, that sucker is loud and magnificent!!! My grandkids love to blow it!

A shofar represents God's presence.

Among other things, I blew a shofar in every room of my 153 year old house in The Historical District in my town. Now, you know the house had to be full of demons! Especially since the people who were renting the house when we bought it, were into the occult.

We know demons try to come back seven times stronger after having found the house swept and clean.

My husband was unpacking boxes upstairs and I heard a scream and "The Blood of Jesus!" I ran to the stairs and was laughing so hard! Lol lol I knew exactly what was going on! My husband knew that a presence was in the room and took authority over them when the demons tried to come back!

This house is clean sailing!!! No demons here!!!

The shofar brought in His presence and He remains!!!

Laughing Laughing Laughing


So....Blow the Trumpets in Zion!!!


Version #1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yloJnqUr950


Version #2: It get real good at 3:00!!!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTAqnRKKfPo

[Updated on: Tue, 05 November 2013 07:44]


Shalom,

GWB

"Be still and know that I am God."
Re: Manchild rapture wrong?? [message #10220 is a reply to message #10216 ] Tue, 05 November 2013 15:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Marilyn Crow  is currently offline Marilyn Crow
Messages: 537
Registered: September 2013
Location: Australia
Senior Member
Hi Jman,


You said -

Quote:

God never said the trumpet was a symbol for a voice. Not in Rev 4:1 or anywhere.

There is no context to say the trumpet is a voice.

The verse says the voice was like a trumpet. Same as one might say the man's voice was like thunder.


Revelation 4: 1

`behold a door standing open in heaven, & the first voice which I heard, like the sound of a trumpet speaking with me , said, "Come up here,...`

The first voice that John had heard was God `s voice. Now John is telling us that His voice sounded like the sound of a trumpet.
That seems very plain that God`s voice can sound like a trumpet at times & other times we know like `the sound of many waters...etc.


Another example is when John is describing Jesus between the throne. (Rev. 5: 5 & 6) He is shown as a Lion & a Lamb. Now it does not say `this is a symbol of Jesus,` but we know from other scriptures the meaning of these symbols concerning Jesus. It does not mean that every lion & every lamb is referring to Jesus, just when the context is appropriate.















Marilyn C
Re: Manchild rapture wrong?? [message #10223 is a reply to message #10220 ] Tue, 05 November 2013 16:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Marilyn Crow  is currently offline Marilyn Crow
Messages: 537
Registered: September 2013
Location: Australia
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I have written a comparison of the 2 events to show the differences. Hope that helps some people.


THE DAY OF CHRIST (The Rapture)

PURPOSE
Jesus the head connects to the Body of Christ. (Eph. 1:22 & 23 1 Thess. 4: 17)
It was revealed to the Apostle Paul. (1 Cor. 15: 51 & 52)

HOW & WHERE IT HAPPENS
Jesus Himself comes quickly with those `asleep in Christ,` to the clouds. (1 Cor. 15: 51 & 52 1 Thess. 4: 13 – 17)

WHO SEES & WHEN
Only those who eagerly await Him. (Heb. 9: 28 1Thess. 2: 19 2 Thess. 2: 1)
Before the Tribulation. (1 Thess. 1: 9 & 10 1 Thess. 5: 1 – 11 Rev. 3: 10 1 Cor. 1: 8 & 9)

WHAT HAPPENS
Judgment of rewards for heavenly rulership. (1 Cor. 3: 11 – 15 2 Cor. 5: 10 Rom. 14: 10 – 12 Heb. 12: 22 & 23)
An inheritance – Heavenly. (1 Peter 1: 4 Col. 3: 1 – 4 Phil. 3: 14 Rev. 3: 21 4: 10 5: 8 & 9)



THE DAY OF THE LORD GOD (The Second Coming)

PURPOSE
Jesus the King connects to Israel. (Acts 1: 6 Matt. 25: 31 & 32)
It was revealed to the Old Testament prophets. (Isaiah 11: 1 – 10 Dan. 7: 13 & 14 Zech. 14: 1 – 4)

HOW & WHERE IT HAPPENS
Jesus comes in great power & glory with His angelic army, to the Mount of Olives. (Matt. 16: 27, 25: 31 2 Thess. 1: 7 Zech. 14: 4 Rev. 19: 11 – 16)

WHO SEES & WHEN
Every eye shall see. (Rev. 1: 7 Zech. 12: 10 John 19: 37)
After the tribulation. (Joel 2: 30 – 32 Dan. 9: 27 1 Thess. 5: 2 & 3 2 Thess. 2: 8 – 12)

WHAT HAPPENS
Judgment for entrance into the Millennium. (Matt. 25: 31 – 46 Isaiah 11: 4, 59: 20 & 21 Joel 3: 1, 2, 12 Rev. 20: 4 – 6)
An inheritance – Earthly. (Deut. 32: 43 Isaiah 11: 10, 60: 19 – 23 Joel 3: 20)


Marilyn C
Re: Manchild rapture wrong?? [message #10228 is a reply to message #10223 ] Tue, 05 November 2013 19:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
wishing34  is currently offline wishing34
Messages: 212
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Hi Marylin,

Quote:


Before the Tribulation. (1 Thess. 1: 9 & 10 1 Thess. 5: 1 – 11 Rev. 3: 10 1 Cor. 1: 8 & 9)



This contradicts the verses as I laid out to start this thread.






As I see it . . .

What I laid out is impossible to be wrong - we shall not precede the resurrection of the righteous dead - which clearly occurs at the end of the 7 yr trib



. . . but in the verses you use here there is ambiguity

I Thess 1:10 - the "wrath to come" might mean the wrath of eternal hell and not mean the 7 year trib

Rev 3:10 says God will "keep" you from what is coming. This does not say rapture, change, caught up. It could mean God
will protect you from the bad stuff that will come - while you live out your life here on earth.

I realize that Rev 3:10 is a very popular pre-trib rapture verse, but it does not say rapture as do
the verses I used ( when I started this thread - "caught up", "changed" ) .

-------------

A stronger verse to use for pre-trib rapture would be Rev 12- the manchild . This is what our group used to use to prove
a pre-trib rapture. You have the manchild caught up to the throne followed by a 3 1/2 year period which
clearly must refer to 1/2 of the trib. I would still like this manchild rapture interpretation, except I cannot reconcile
it to the verses I started this thread with.


Possibly when the manchild is caught up in Rev 12 it is like when Paul was caught up in vision????
II Cor 12:3-4
A group vision????

Just tossing it out there.
I have no certain manchild opinion at this time.






Jman







---sig------------------------------------------------------ ------------

At the time of this post . . .

FA, the satellites, the spinoffs,and the FA diaspora have been having church
without apostles for 41 years and 309 days.
Initial start date 1/1/72


Recommended: No faith stands that strongly impact our (our children's) lives until we figure out
why the signs and wonders are missing. Something is wrong.









[Updated on: Tue, 05 November 2013 19:38]






Re: Manchild rapture wrong?? [message #10230 is a reply to message #10228 ] Wed, 06 November 2013 00:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Marilyn Crow  is currently offline Marilyn Crow
Messages: 537
Registered: September 2013
Location: Australia
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Hi Jman,

Here are my answers to your 3 questions.


THE WRATH OF GOD.

`A day of wrath is that day, A day of trouble & distress, A day of destruction & desolation...` (Jer. 1:15)
`And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time;...` (Dan. 12: 1)
`Alas! For that day is great; There is none like it;...` (Jer. 30: 7)
`For the day of the Lord is coming...A day of darkness & gloom....` (Joel 2: 1 & 2)
`For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall.` (Matt. 24: 21)
`Fall on us & hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, & from the wrath of the lamb.` (Rev. 6: 16)


WRATH – Greek word `orge` expresses wrath, anger, vengeance with connotations of punishment. To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity.

`For behold, the Lord is about to come out from His place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity; ...` (Isaiah 26: 21)


Clearly these scriptures & many more show that there is no ambiguity concerning what God means when He refers to the day of His `wrath.` So when Paul writes by the Spirit that the Body of Christ will be delivered from the wrath to come, it is clearly the tribulation.

`to wait for His Son from heaven.......Jesus, who delivers us from the wrath to come.` (1 Thess. 1: 10)


BEFORE THE TRIBULATION.

`Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, (tribulation) that hour which is about to come upon the whole world to test those who dwell upon the earth. ` (Rev. 3: 10)

Jesus gave this firm commitment to the Apostle John “...I will also keep you..”
Keep – Greek `tereo ek,` when this verb `tereo` is used with `ek,` as in this verse, it means `by guarding, to cause one to escape in safety out of.` This would indicate emphatically that John was recording a promise of complete removal from the sphere of tribulation, & not a preservation through it. To properly indicate that the Body of Christ was going through the tribulation the Greek preposition `dia,` would have to have been used.

The International Greek Lexicon (A. Ginhrich) defines that this is further substantiated by the use of the words `the hour.` God is not only guarding from the tribulation, but from the very time-period itself when these trials will come on the earth dwellers.


ISRAEL.

`If your outcast are at the ends of the earth from there the Lord your God will gather you, & from there He will bring you back.` (Deut. 30: 4)


This is the quote that Jesus used in Matt. 24: 31 & Mark 13: 27. God is speaking of His elect from Israel at the end of the tribulation that have been scattered.

Jman, you are mixing scriptures because you do not understand the 3 groups & God`s purposes for each. (The Body of Christ, Israel & the Nations.)

[Updated on: Wed, 06 November 2013 01:09]


Marilyn C
Re: Manchild rapture wrong?? [message #10231 is a reply to message #10228 ] Wed, 06 November 2013 00:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gary  is currently offline Gary
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Jman,

You have to include Revelations 14 in this whole scenario. Read this: Revelation 14:1-5

You obviously are thinking everyone must face death, but I think with the concept of a rapture taking place some (the 144,000) will not taste of death.

That's the difference.

The view that every Christian will be caught away is the world church view. As they have scriptures that speak in general, not realizing there is more to the picture then what meets the eye.

When you read the description that is in Revelation 14: it mirrors many of the things that Jesus spoke of in the book of John and the other gospels. It's there but people cannot see it.

I think most do not have ears to hear and eyes to see and understand this deeper truth.

Gary



Re: Manchild rapture wrong?? [message #10237 is a reply to message #10231 ] Wed, 06 November 2013 09:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
wishing34  is currently offline wishing34
Messages: 212
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Hi Marylin,


Quote:


This is the quote that Jesus used in Matt. 24: 31 & Mark 13: 27. God is speaking of His elect from Israel at the end of the tribulation that have been scattered.

Jman, you are mixing scriptures because you do not understand the 3 groups & God`s purposes for each. (The Body of Christ, Israel & the Nations.)




Your words are so illustrative here of the issue I have been pointing out.

Because you have added your "keys" as to how to interpret the scriptures . . . you now come up with
theology that is error.

To say that the Mat 24:31 "elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other" is only Jews is an error.

This happens because you have created "keys" that influence your interpretation of the Scriptures.

The Scriptures are God-breathed but your keys are man-made. Sometimes your keys change the
meaning if the Scriptures in your interpretations


==================


You are wrong that Jesus was quoting Duet 30:4

Deu 30:4 KJV -- If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:

Notice the KJV says "parts of heaven" (original Hebrew is the same). Your quote said "ends of the earth"

Your Bible version is different from the Hebrew.
Also there is minimal similarity between the text in in Mat 24:31 and Deut 30:4.

The verse is not quoting Deut 30:4.

=====================


Quote:


Clearly these scriptures & many more show that there is no ambiguity concerning what God means when He refers to the day of His `wrath.`




No, you are wrong.

This link
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_retribution
has a nice list of verses that refer to God's wrath as eternel judgement in hell.



Matt 3:7 and Lk 3:7 are examples where Jesus used "wrath to come" to refer to eternal judgement in hell.

So you cannot limit God's wrath or the phrase "the wrath to come" to mean the 7 year trib.

----------------------------------

Concerning what you said about Rev 3:10

The Greek -tereo - is actually on my side. It means "to keep or to guard" which sounds like the believer is still on earth where he needs guarding.

As far as saying it must say "dia" and not "ek" - that is conjecture, not a concrete assumption.





Jman







---sig------------------------------------------------------ ------------

At the time of this post . . .

FA, the satellites, the spinoffs,and the FA diaspora have been having church
without apostles for 41 years and 310 days.
Initial start date 1/1/72


Recommended: No faith stands that strongly impact our (our children's) lives until we figure out
why the signs and wonders are missing. Something is wrong.








Re: Manchild rapture wrong?? [message #10238 is a reply to message #10237 ] Wed, 06 November 2013 14:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Marilyn Crow  is currently offline Marilyn Crow
Messages: 537
Registered: September 2013
Location: Australia
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Hi Jman,

When God says `Give none offence, neither to the Jews or to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God,` (1 Cor. 10: 32) then that is very clear, Jman, 3 groups & each clearly identified on earth today & in the Bible. It is not a man-made key as you say but written in God`s word for us to read.


When Jesus was talking to Israel in Matthew & Mark & quoting Deuteronomy, it was to Israel as the Body of Christ did not exist & was not known. Zechariah also gives further explanation to these scriptures - ` for I have spread you abroad as the four winds of the heaven, saith the Lord.` yes `He shall send His angels, & shall gather His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.` (Mark 13: 27) (the scripture you said.)


Concerning `wrath,` as you know we read the context as well & the other scriptures concerning the topic. Now we know that Jesus died for our sins & has `saved,` us from God`s wrath. We are not the rebellious whom God will pour His wrath & vengeance upon. God does not pour His wrath upon His Son`s Body - the Body of Christ.

I think you generalise & don`t address scriptures I have given you - 1 Cor. 10: 32 above & the comparison of the Rapture & the Second Coming that I wrote previously.

If we can`t listen & read each other`s comments carefully then we are just trying to get our `theory,` over & that is not conducive to leading to truth. To be honest in a discussion we need to address what the other is saying or seek clarification.

eg. You continually say `your keys,` & do not address the scripture I gave you & who God talks to in different parts of His word. That is just `batting the air,` & not discussing with an intent for truth. If I am wrong then you need to show how God does not talk to these 3 different groups.






Marilyn C
Re: Manchild rapture wrong?? [message #10240 is a reply to message #10238 ] Wed, 06 November 2013 17:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
wishing34  is currently offline wishing34
Messages: 212
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Marylin,



Time to agree to disagree.
I see you in a very similar light as you see me.

I have shared ideas and Scriptures in this thread and so have you.
There is where it stands.
It does not matter if we are ever able to convince each other.








Jman







---sig------------------------------------------------------ ------------

At the time of this post . . .

FA, the satellites, the spinoffs,and the FA diaspora have been having church
without apostles for 41 years and 310 days.
Initial start date 1/1/72


Recommended: No faith stands that strongly impact our (our children's) lives until we figure out
why the signs and wonders are missing. Something is wrong.












Re: Manchild rapture wrong?? [message #10241 is a reply to message #10240 ] Wed, 06 November 2013 17:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Marilyn Crow  is currently offline Marilyn Crow
Messages: 537
Registered: September 2013
Location: Australia
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Hi Jman,

Yes I agree that we are not understanding each other. One day we shall all know the truth when we are with Him in glory.

Bless you brother.


Marilyn C
Re: Manchild rapture wrong?? [message #10254 is a reply to message #10241 ] Sat, 09 November 2013 04:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gary  is currently offline Gary
Messages: 870
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Location: Indiana
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Hi Marilyn,

I just wanted to say here I know you must not understand about this man child, first fruits rapture as you did not include it in your post on the rapture.

But don't throw the Baby out with the bath water here. Maybe God has allowed you and Trev to hear and see this and to know that God has more for "all of us" in this event that is going to take place. We don't want to put limits on the Lord.

There are actually several *raptures that take place in revelations. I believe God wants to reveal more to you and Trevor as well as to all of us. The thing is that "all" of us have to take a serious look at the scriptures to see what they say in light of recent world events. We cannot hold on to things in the past if it contradicts something that God is trying to speak to us on.

I'm saying at least leave this option on the back burner here and just let God show you in His time.

There is a group of 144,000 who follow the lamb wherever He goes and they know His voice, they are virgins,(the five wise), who will be birthed out of the church system as we know it. Revelations 14:1-5

The church system have many people who for one reason or another have not the ears to hear at this time, they will go through the first half of the tribulation and God will take care of them and they will learn from the Lord.

Anyway for all its worth just keep this on the back burner as I believe God has more for you guys, and I know He has more for us as well.

Gary

*We all know the word rapture is not in the original Greek but I am using this word to explain the catching away that will take place.



Re: Manchild rapture wrong?? [message #10256 is a reply to message #10254 ] Sat, 09 November 2013 06:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
GWB  is currently offline GWB
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".....many will be made spotless, *purified,made white and refind."* Daniel 12:9


There are seven examples of different types of churches in The Revelation.

Only one is worthy of a nod.

I believe The Great Tribulation will purify them. This particular group of martyrs are seen standing before the throne.

Why would it be justifiable to allow all seven churches to be raptured out of this so called wrath to come? Yes, there is a wrath to come for the church and pagans.


Judgement begins in the House of The Lord.

Is the purification happening now, oh rich but poor in Spirit Church (the prosperity seed faith delusion?)

How about the unbelieving "It is not for today, or faithless, Church?

Zzzzzzz.......The sleeping Chuch....Zzzzzz......It's all good! Your roast is ready when you get home, so pass the plate, sing a hymn.... It's all good! You are OK and I am OK! Don't worry, be happy!!!

It is all there. The churches need a wake up call!


Nothing that persecution and Tribulation won't solve!

Either put your head on the block or get with it.

The church of today is dead. Why is it worthy of rapture?

[Updated on: Sat, 09 November 2013 07:05]


Shalom,

GWB

"Be still and know that I am God."
Re: Manchild rapture wrong?? [message #10258 is a reply to message #10256 ] Sat, 09 November 2013 08:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
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GWB wrote on Sat, 09 November 2013 06:55



There are seven examples of different types of churches in The Revelation.

Only one is worthy of a nod.

I believe The Great Tribulation will purify them. This particular group of martyrs are seen standing before the throne.

Why would it be justifiable to allow all seven churches to be raptured out of this so called wrath to come? Yes, there is a wrath to come for the church and pagans.


Judgement begins in the House of The Lord.

Is the purification happening now, oh rich but poor in Spirit Church (the prosperity seed faith delusion?)

How about the unbelieving "It is not for today, or faithless, Church?

Zzzzzzz.......The sleeping Chuch....Zzzzzz......It's all good! Your roast is ready when you get home, so pass the plate, sing a hymn.... It's all good! You are OK and I am OK! Don't worry, be happy!!!

It is all there. The churches need a wake up call!


Nothing that persecution and Tribulation won't solve!

Either put your head on the block or get with it.

The church of today is dead. Why is it worthy of rapture?


This isn't a 'correction' or an admonishment, just an observation and comment. First "the church" we know are people and we know that all these failings/weakness/sins mentioned are in the lives of not only 'the assemblies' but in the hearts and lives of individuals(lukewarmess, ect). The purification is happening now in the hearts and lives of those who are submitting themselves unto God, crying out for mercy, seeking after holiness; believers 'inside the church' and outside the church; as if that's even possible...to be part of The Body of Christ and be outside it. What I'm trying to says is, God is drawing followers unto Himself(separation/sanctification) from both inside the system of man and from those already outside.

As to the question that jumped off the page at me, "Why would it be justifiable to allow all seven churches to be raptured out of this so call wrath to come? Yes, there is a wrath to come for the church and pagans."

Maybe my thoughts concerning this is because I've spent the last 3-4 weeks studying from Bancroft's Christian Theology and reading a book titled: Holiness by Grace; but our justification(declared righteous by God, God removing the guilt and penalty of our sins throught Jesus' atoning sacrifice. Receiving it through an act of faith, which is a gift given unto the person by God, lest we should boast.) So my thought is, no one or no 'church' will be justified by anything they can offer, apart from God's GRACE through Calvary and the imparted/declared righteousness of Christ unto us(unearned) all our righteousness is as filthy rags before a Holy God. So why? GRACE! Does He require something of us? Absolutely, a humble, obedient heart, fully aware that it's all by His Mercy and Grace that we weren't judged based on our own rightousness, for we have none of our own.

Maybe this comment is more of a reflection of the work going on in my heart than anything else. I just want to caution, first myself, that we take heed lest we think of ourselves to be something we aren't.(I Corinthians 10:12) Remember having done a bunch.....we're still unprofitable servants.(Luke 17:10)


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: Manchild rapture wrong?? [message #10259 is a reply to message #10258 ] Sat, 09 November 2013 10:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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What I've been thinking about lately is this: OT types and patterns (which were written for our examples -- Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. [1Cr 10:11 KJV])

There are passages, like Gideon's example, where the actions of the few bring rewards to the whole group (all of Israel) and not necessarily just for the few. There also are indications where you have God saving the few to the detriment of the rest (like Noah). We might also extrapolate the example of God's dealings with Judah and the way He dealt with the rest of Israel and see some favoritism based upon their spiritual condition.

Since both types of examples are presented I think that the question we have to ask ourselves is simple: Are we to view the Church as a unity (as Israel was in Gideon's time) or are we to view the Church as being comprised of two separate entities --apostate and elect?

I think most of us have taken the second example as being the proper picture which has led us to almost 'hate' everyone who isn't filled with a passionate desire to follow Jesus in all things.

However, there are some legitimate reasons to adopt the former view given that the Church is presented as sometimes shallow and sometimes strong (Rev 2-3). That, taken with the obvious command for Christians to "love one another," may trump the other example... here are just a few passages that should be considered:
Quote:


A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. [Jhn 13:34 KJV]
This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. [Jhn 15:12 KJV]
These things I command you, that ye love one another. [Jhn 15:17 KJV]
Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. [Rom 13:8 KJV]
But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another. [1Th 4:9 KJV]
Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, [see that ye] love one another with a pure heart fervently: [1Pe 1:22 KJV]
For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another. [1Jo 3:11 KJV]
And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. [1Jo 3:23 KJV]
Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. [1Jo 4:7 KJV]
Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another. [1Jo 4:11 KJV]
No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. [1Jo 4:12 KJV]
And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another. [2Jo 1:5 KJV]
By this shall all [men] know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another. [Jhn 13:35 KJV]
[Be] kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another; [Rom 12:10 KJV]
For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only [use] not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. [Gal 5:13 KJV]
With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; [Eph 4:2 KJV]
And the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all [men], even as we [do] toward you: [1Th 3:12 KJV]
And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: [Hbr 10:24 KJV]
Finally, [be ye] all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, [be] pitiful, [be] courteous: [1Pe 3:8 KJV]


That said, the only remaining consideration is the question of who makes up the Church? Is it justifiable to boil it down to those who have made a confession of faith in Jesus Christ? Is it really possible for us to judge another's heart in these matters? I'm not saying that we can't know people by their fruits, certainly we can and when it is obvious that only bad fruit is present we have our answer, but what about those times when the fruit basket is mixed with both bad and good?


Just throwing out some thoughts here...

Blessings,
William

[Updated on: Sat, 09 November 2013 12:43]


I want to believe!
Re: Manchild rapture wrong?? [message #10260 is a reply to message #10254 ] Sat, 09 November 2013 15:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Marilyn Crow  is currently offline Marilyn Crow
Messages: 537
Registered: September 2013
Location: Australia
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Hi Gary,

Thank you for your kind words. Yes I`m sure the Lord is leading us by His Holy Spirit into all truth. I haven`t broached this subject of the `Manchild,` as yet for I needed to keep reading about it & also hadn`t felt it was the time to ask questions. Perhaps at another time.


Marilyn C
Re: Manchild rapture wrong?? [message #10261 is a reply to message #10259 ] Sat, 09 November 2013 15:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gary  is currently offline Gary
Messages: 870
Registered: August 2008
Location: Indiana
Senior Member
William,

Quote:

William Wrote: I think most of us have taken the second example as being the proper picture which has led us to almost 'hate' everyone who isn't filled with a passionate desire to follow Jesus in all things.



More thoughts here.

I don't know of anyone who "hates" people who do not believe as we do or has a desire to go deeper with Jesus. That's strong language.

Jesus told us that the wheat and tares and the goats and sheep would all grow up together and God would deal with it at the end of the age.

I think that scripture in I Corinthians should be taken in the whole context and that is it is because of "sin" and "rebellion", they lusted after evil and tempted Christ with their rebellion. This is written for our admonition and our examples. Don't you think so? I Corinthians 10:1-12

Their are just as many scriptures as you shared that are written by the Apostle of love namely John that are admonitions as well.

Quote:


I John 2:3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

I John 4:4 You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world. 5 They are of the world. Therefore they speak as of the world, and the world hears them. 6 We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.



There are a lot of scriptures that tell us to take heed what we hear, Why because many deceivers have gone out in this world.

Quote:

William wrote; Since both types of examples are presented I think that the question we have to ask ourselves is simple: Are we to view the Church as a unity (as Israel was in Gideon's time) or are we to view the Church as being comprised of two separate entities --apostate and elect?


Good question. The fact remains though that the church system that we see today is nothing compared to the New Testament church. We know that there are true believers all over the world and only God knows who is real and who is false.

By the very fact that the tares have been sown by the enemy there is nothing that any of us can do to change that, we just have to accept what is going on till Jesus returns.

But I do agree with what you shared, that "we are to love all men" no matter what situation we find ourselves in. I don't think by recognizing the problems means, that we hate them. It's very sad that some will never make it in.

God is the one who has chosen an elect the only thing any of us can do is trust God that His mercy is there.

The deeper question that we may never know is: Why has God chosen some and not others? Some are elected to salvation while others will perish for all eternity.

Romans 9:10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.”

I think if there is any separation in the church it is not by our choice and we cannot control what has taken place. We can only recognize the problem is there.

For all its worth just wanted to share the other side of the coin in this. Looking at the whole picture we can only fall down and praise God for His mercy.

Gary





Re: Manchild rapture wrong?? [message #10264 is a reply to message #10261 ] Sat, 09 November 2013 15:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
GWB  is currently offline GWB
Messages: 713
Registered: March 2008
Location: Louisville, Ky area
Senior Member
Gary and William,

I do agree for the most part and thanks for the insight.

We were taught what you all mentioned. I did not mean to imply that anyone is perfect now. That's not true with myself!

However, much of what we were taught was hinged on this scripture in Daniel.
It is mentioned in the Revelation outline that I posted from HEF.

We were taught that the Manchild will have already been purged due to walking in the deeper life. We were taught exactly what I stated above.

With that being said, I realize iron is sharpening iron.

We are always learning new things and learning what FA missed. Smile


Shalom,

GWB

"Be still and know that I am God."
Re: Manchild rapture wrong?? [message #10272 is a reply to message #10261 ] Sat, 09 November 2013 22:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
Messages: 1189
Registered: January 2006
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Quote:

Gary wrote: I don't know of anyone who "hates" people who do not believe as we do or has a desire to go deeper with Jesus. That's strong language.


Touché.

I should have only spoken for myself and used another term... maybe "despised" or "hold in contempt", etc.. Whatever the attitude was it definitely wasn't a normal "Son-Mother" relationship! <grin>

Blessings,
William



I want to believe!
Re: Manchild rapture wrong?? [message #10289 is a reply to message #10272 ] Tue, 12 November 2013 14:57 Go to previous message
Gary  is currently offline Gary
Messages: 870
Registered: August 2008
Location: Indiana
Senior Member
william wrote on Sat, 09 November 2013 22:36

Quote:

Gary wrote: I don't know of anyone who "hates" people who do not believe as we do or has a desire to go deeper with Jesus. That's strong language.


Touché.

I should have only spoken for myself and used another term... maybe "despised" or "hold in contempt", etc.. Whatever the attitude was it definitely wasn't a normal "Son-Mother" relationship! <grin>

Blessings,
William





William,

I thought about this and wondered, I don't know if "despised" or "hold in contempt", was the right word even though it could fit. I was trying to find the word that would describe this attitude your talking about.

The best I could think of is "suspicious". Suspicious of everyone outside of our circles because their doctrines may be different and maybe some think everyone is out to deceive them.

I think this is the fault of all churches. Once a minister receives some revelation and ends up making disciples who follow their teachings, they all lock into those doctrines and everyone outside of their circle becomes a suspect, because they don't see everything the same way as them.

It started with Luther in the reformation,then some other group breaks away from Luther's group, then someone else starts the anabaptists movement. Now its just escalated over the centuries on a endless cycle.

I don't think its just our group but our group has followed in the same path of all other denominations.

Do you see what I mean on this? I think you had the right idea and you mentioned having love towards the brethren is correct, but everyone thinks the brethren is only in their group.

Anyway I think this is the pitfall of the church as a whole. If anyone tries to break out of the mode and wants to unite the body, then everyone becomes suspicious and thinks their wanting a one world church or something.

Anyway I was thinking about what you shared the last few days and I think you had the right idea, making it work is the problem.

Gary




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