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What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith? [message #9514] Tue, 28 May 2013 01:28 Go to next message
A_Smoking_Flax
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*** What is the Biblical Meaning of the Word "Faith"? ***

Grace
and faith are the two most important words in the entire Bible!

Because:

“By grace you have been saved, through faith;
This is not your own doing: it is the gift of God: not a result of anything you’ve done, so that no one may boast.


We are saved by Grace…
Grace… is not our own doing!
Grace… is the gift of God!
Grace… is not a result of anything we’ve done!
It is by Grace… so that no one may boast.

Through faith…
Faith… is not our own doing! Titus 3:4-5
Faith… is the gift of God! Romans 12:3
Faith… is not a result of anything we’ve done! 1Cor 15:10, Ephesians 2:10
Through faith… so that no one may boast. 2Peter 1:2-3, 1Peter 1:2-5, Galatians 6:14, 2Cor 10:17

You would think that every Christian would know the meaning of these two words:
Since correctly understanding and believing them are the foundation of our salvation.
But this has not been my experience.

I have asked numerous “christians” for the definitions of grace and faith, and without fail these are the responses I have gotten:

Grace is the undeserved favor of God.


And, quoting Hebrews 11:1

“Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.”


I have found that “christians” (unsaved "religious" people) and even many true Christians also believe:
Faith is unquestioning belief; belief without any reason or evidence whatsoever: what some call “blind faith”.

AND…

Although most “christians”, and even some true Christians, believe there is some kind of mysterious aspect to “faith”;

It is only “charismatics” following “The Faith Message”
who believe that faith is an actual, tangible, spiritual substance; a real spiritual power which is released by us through the act of “believing”: a power that we are required to obtain for ourselves; to store it up; to strengthen it; so that we will become “strong in faith”.

They believe it is the same spiritual power that God used to make the universe:
“Through [the spiritual substance of] faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God”. Or,
We understand that it was through the spiritual substance of faith that God made everything by speaking the Word of Faith.

Not only is it up to us to acquire this spiritual power, but, we must also be able to use it.
The most important part of having “faith” is increasing our prowess/ability to use this power in our daily lives. (James 2:17-18,20,22; “The just shall live [day by day, hour by hour, minute by minute] by faith”. Whatsoever is not of faith is sin. When Jesus comes He will be looking for those who have (and use) this spiritual prowess).
We must have enough faith to enable God to do what we desire/need, i.e., receive the desires of our heart, prosper us, heal us, save us, save our families, etc.
Because, if we do not have enough of our own strong faith for God to use:
God can do nothing for us. Matthew 13:58, Mark 6:5-6


*** The Meaning of "Faith" Has Changed ***


Satan understands that there is no way he can change the definition of the word grace.
Everyone understands that the primary meaning of the word grace is undeserved favor (of God).
I believe God won’t allow the meaning to be changed because that is how He saves us… By Grace!

But Satan knows…

The definition of the word faith can be made to seem more mysterious, ethereal, and mystical.
The definition of the word faith has been radically altered over time.
In fact, it has come to mean the exact opposite of its original Biblical definition.

This can be clearly seen in these dictionary definitions starting with the more recent dictionaries and going back in time.

1986: faith, belief without proof; belief without need of certain proof

1962, 1965: faith, a believing without proof

College edition 1953, 1958: faith, unquestioning belief; unquestioning belief in God, religion, etc.

If you go back far enough, the original definition of the word faith can be clearly seen, even in a common dictionary:
And that definition changes everything!
Faith is not belief without proof; or unquestioning belief in God, religion, etc.
Faith is belief based on reason and evidence.

WEBSTER’S 1828 DICTIONARY

FAITH,
n. L. fides, fido, to trust; Gr. to persuade,
1. Belief; the assent of the mind to the truth of what is declared by another, resting on his authority and veracity, without other evidence; the judgment that what another states or testifies is the truth.

2. The assent of the mind to the truth of a proposition advanced by another; belief, of probable evidence of any kind.

3. In theology, the assent of the mind or understanding to the truth of what God has revealed.

4. Evangelical, justifying, or saving faith, is the assent of the mind to the truth of divine revelation, on the authority of God's testimony, accompanied with a cordial assent of the will or approbation of the heart; an entire confidence or trust in God's character and declarations, and in the character and doctrines of Christ, with an unreserved surrender of the will to his guidance, and dependence on his merits for salvation. In other words, that firm belief of God's testimony, and of the truth of the gospel, which influences the will, and leads to an entire reliance on Christ for salvation.


Not long ago, it wasn’t only true Christians who understood the exact meaning of the Biblical word faith: everyone understood it!

The Belief of our Reason
is an Exercise of Faith, and Faith is an Act of Reason.

It is not reason that is taking my faith away: on the contrary, my faith is based on reason.
It is my imagination and emotions [that are taking my faith away].
The battle is between faith and reason on one side and emotion and imagination on the other.


*** Three Related Greek Words: Pistis, Peitho, Pisteuo ***

What Is The Biblical Meaning Of The Greek Word Translated “Faith”?


Anyone who is teaching God’s Word, has a responsibility to be sure that the meaning of a word translated into English is the actual meaning of the Greek word, before he uses that word to teach anything i.e., theology or a Biblical principle.
Baptize, church, saint; these words no longer have the same meaning in English that they have in the Greek.
Any correct Biblical teaching/theology/principle has to be based upon the actual meaning of the word, not its current, popular, incarnation/deviation.

For example, in John 21:15-17, there are two different Greek words, with two different meanings, both translated as “love”.
When you understand that two different kinds of “love” are used, you then understand that Jesus did not ask Peter the same question three times, but, Jesus actually asked Peter three different questions.

The Biblical definition of the word which is translated faith is persuasion.

FAITH [Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of The Bible]
G4102 pistis (From G3982; Believe)

Persuasion,
that is, credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly constancy in such profession; by extension the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself: - assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.

Persuasion
1. The act of persuading; the act of influencing the mind by arguments or reasons
2. The state of being persuaded or convinced; settled opinion or conviction proceeding from arguments and reasons

Credence

1. Belief; credit; reliance of the mind on evidence of facts derived from other sources than personal knowledge, as from the testimony of others

Conviction

1. The act of proving, determining to be guilty of an offense charged against a person before a legal tribunal; as by the verdict of a jury.

Reliance

1. Rest or repose of mind, resulting from a full belief of the veracity or integrity of a person, or of the certainty of a fact; trust; confidence; dependence. We may have perfect reliance on the promises of God

Constancy

1. Fixedness; a standing firm 2. Fixedness or firmness of mind; 3. Certainty; veracity; reality.

Veracity
n. [L. verax, from verus, true.]
1. Habitual observance of truth, or habitual truth 2. Invariable expression of truth

BELIEVE
[Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of The Bible]
G3982 peitho (the root word of faith)
A primary verb; to convince (by argument, true or false); by analogy to pacify or conciliate (by other fair means); reflexively or passively to assent (to evidence or authority), to rely (by inward certainty): - agree, assure, believe, have confidence, be (wax) content, make friend, obey,[b] persuade, trust, yield.

Convince
v.t. [L., to vanquish.]
1. To persuade or satisfy the mind by evidence; to subdue the opposition of the mind to truth
2. To convict; to prove 3. To substantiate; to prove.


Believe (pisteuo): is used 250 times throughout the New Testament and is translated: believe, believers, believing, believest, believeth, believed, trust. Its origin is from the word Faith.

BELIEVE
[Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of The Bible]
G4100 pisteuo (From G4102)
to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), that is, credit; by implication to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well being to Christ): - believe (-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.

Credit

1. Belief; faith; a reliance or resting of the mind on the truth of something said or done.

Trust
1. Confidence; a reliance or resting of the mind on the integrity, veracity, justice, friendship or other sound principle of another person.
2. He or that which is the ground of confidence.

Confidence

1. A trusting, or reliance; an assurance of mind or firm belief in the integrity, stability or veracity of another, or in the truth and reality of a fact.


Biblical Faith is:
Persuasion
in what God tells us, which convinces us to believe God, and to trust in God, and to rely on God alone to perform what He said in His Word.


*** The Greek Word Translated Substance ***


Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance…

The biblical meaning of the word faith is clear; it means persuasion.

The biblical meaning of the word substance is also clear.


Substance
[Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of The Bible]
G5287 hupostasis
From a compound of G5259: hupo, under; and G2476: histemi, to stand; a setting under (support)

You can see the basis of the word substance, when you take the word apart, sub and stance:
sub; under, beneath, and stance; to stand. Foundation would be a better translation of the word.

So instead of faith being a spiritual substance of power and our prowess/ability to use it;
Hebrews 11:1 would be better translated as:

Now persuasion in God’s Word is the foundation of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Or expanded it could read:

Persuasion in God, belief in God, trust in God, and reliance on God alone is the foundation of everything I hope for;
Persuasion in God, belief in God, trust in God, and reliance on God alone is the evidence of things I have not yet seen.

There is no “power” in biblical faith.
The word faith simply means God has persuaded us through His Word, to believe Him, and because we believe Him,
we trust in Him, and rely on Him alone to fulfill His Promises to us.

Biblical faith is not belief/faith in our own mastery of a “Spiritual Substance of Power”, what some have described as “having faith in our faith”.


*** The Full Meaning of the Word Grace ***

Grace and Truth came by Jesus The Messiah.



God’s Grace, on the other hand, does contain THE POWER OF GOD TO CHANGE US SPIRITUALLY, ETERNALLY.

GRACE
[Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of The Bible]
G5485 charis
From G5463; graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially
The divine influence upon the heart,
[Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.]
And its reflection in the life;
[Order my steps in your word: and do not let any iniquity/wickedness have dominion over me.]
Including gratitude
): - acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace (-ious), joy liberality, pleasure, thank (-s, -worthy).

Graciousness
n. Kind condescension.

GRACE
[Thayer’s Greek Definitions]
G5485 charis
2) good will, loving-kindness, favor
2a) of the merciful kindness by which God, exerting His holy influence upon souls, turns them to Christ, keeps, strengthens, increases them in Christian faith, knowledge, affection, and kindles them to the exercise of the Christian virtues.

God,
[Who has saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace.]
Exerting His holy influence upon souls,
[No man is able to come to Me if the Father who sent Me does not give him the desire to come. Make me to go in the path of Your Commandments.]
Turns them to Christ, [No man is able to come to Me if he is not given the power to do so by My Father.]
Keeps, [Now unto Him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy. I know Him in whom I have believed, and I am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have committed unto Him against that day.]
Strengthens, [Be strong in the Lord, and in the power of His might. I can do all things through Messiah who strengthens me.]
Increases them in Christian faith, [The Christian doctrines/persuasion, belief, trust and reliance in God. Go on fighting strongly for the Christian faith which was once delivered to the saints. God has dealt to every man The Measure of faith (persuasion, belief, trust and reliance in God).]
Knowledge, [In Messiah are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. Grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.]
Affection, [Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us, and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another. If we love one another, God dwells in us, and His love is perfected in us.]
and
Kindles them to the exercise of the Christian virtues.
[Now the God of peace… make you perfect in every good work to do His will, working in you that which is well pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.]


*** Christians Are God Centered ***

Back to Ephesians 2:8-9

“By grace you have been saved, through faith; This is not your own doing:
It is the gift of God: not a result of anything you’ve done, so that no one may boast.”

We are saved by grace…

Grace… is not our own doing!
Grace… is the gift of God!
Grace… is not a result of anything we’ve done!
It is by Grace… so that no one may boast.

Through faith…
Faith… is not our own doing!
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us.
Faith… is the gift of God!
God has dealt to every man the measure of faith.
Faith… is not a result of anything we’ve done!
But by the grace of God I am what I am: and His grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I labored more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Through faith… so that no one may boast.
Grace and peace be multiplied unto you… according as His divine power has given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness.
Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father… Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are kept by the power of God through persuasion, belief, trust and reliance in God alone unto salvation.
But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
But he that boasts, let him boast in the Lord.


There have always been only two ways: God’s way, or man’s way.


By Grace you have been saved, through faith!

Is it man centered?
I am saved by grace, through My Faith!
I am saved by grace; which God only gives, because I released My Spiritual Power of Faith.
It is only because I released My Spiritual Power of Faith, that God can save me by grace.

Or, is it God centered?

I am so persuaded by God, Who said He saved me by His Grace, that I believe I am saved by His Grace, and I trust in His gift of Grace for my salvation, and I rely on His free gift of Grace alone to save me for eternity.


Either God gets all the Glory! And no one has anything at all to boast of.

1 Corinthians 1 :30-31, 15:10, 2 Corinthians 4:7, Galatians 6:14, Ephesians 2:4-10, 4:6-7, 5:20, Philippians 4:19, Colossians 1:12-14, 1 Thessalonians 3:12-13, 2 Thessalonians 2:16-17, 1 Peter 1:3-5, 4:11, 5:6,10-11

Or…

Man gets the Glory;
and we can boast of our own accomplishments. Luke 18:11-14, James 4:13-16

For a Christian it is obvious: Salvation, of body, soul, and spirit; is of The LORD! God Alone Gets All The Glory!


The difference can be seen in which word we emphasize in the question asked by Jesus: “Where is your faith?”


Now it came to pass on a certain day, that He went into a ship with His disciples: and He said unto them, Let us go over unto the other side of the lake. And they launched forth. But as they sailed He fell asleep: and there came down a storm of wind on the lake; and they were filled with water, and were in jeopardy. And they came to Him, and awoke Him, saying, “Master, master, we perish”. Then He arose, and rebuked the wind and the raging of the water: and they ceased, and there was a calm. And Jesus said unto them, “Where is your faith?” Luke 8:22-25

As “Overcomers” we were taught:
Jesus was rebuking them for coming to Him for help!
He was chastising them for not trusting in their own faith; for not relying on their own faith; for not using their own faith to get them out of trouble:

“Where is your faith?


Where is your own spiritual prowess!? Your ability to use the spiritual power of your own faith!?
You
should have used your own spiritual prowess to stop the boat from sinking!
This is something that you should have been able to do for yourselves ! You should not have needed Me to do it for you!

The Christian point of view is looking only to God and not ourselves.
Jesus is simply admonishing us to trust and rely on God, our Father; no matter what the situation.

“Where is your faith?”


Where is your persuasion in God that causes you to believe Him, to trust in Him, and rely on Him to keep us safe, even in the midst of this storm?
Jesus tells us to have persuasion, belief, trust and reliance in God.

Again…

And when Jesus departed from there, two blind men followed Him, crying, and saying, Thou Son of David, have mercy on us. And when He was come into the house, the blind men came to Him: and Jesus said to them, Do you believe that I am able to do this? They said unto him, Yes, Lord. Then He touched their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you. Matthew 9:27-29

What is the emphasis?
Let it be unto you according to your faith: according to your prowess/ability to use the spiritual power of your own faith.

But Jesus didn’t ask them if they had enough faith to receive healing;
Jesus asked them: “Do you believe that I am able to do this?
Their answer was yes, Lord Jesus; we believe that You are able to do this.
According to your faith,
According to your persuasion in God, that causes you to believe Him, to trust in Him, and to rely on Him to give you your sight.
(The Father that dwells in Me, He does the works.)

So then your own Spiritual Power/Prowess comes by hearing!
Or,
So then persuasion, belief, trust and reliance in God comes by hearing the Word of God.

One is reliance on your own “faith”.
As he was “teaching” about Romans 10:17, an “anointed” faith teacher said: If I need faith for something that I am “believing for”, I just say it out loud; and when I hear myself speak, that brings faith: because, faith comes by hearing!

The other is looking to God alone.
Persuasion in God, belief in God, trust in God and reliance on God alone comes from listening to the Word of God.


If, as one “anointed" teacher said: “God never does anything out of compassion. God only responds to [your] Faith!”;
Why then, does God speak about/respond to/act upon His own will, mercy and compassion so many times?
Matthew 8:2-3, 9:36, 14:14, 15:32, 20:34, Mark 1:40-41, 5:19, 6:34, 8:2, Luke 5:12-13, 7:12-15, 9:11, 13:11-13, 10:33, 15:20
Romans 9:15, Hebrews 5:2, 1 Peter 3:8, Jude 1:21-22


If Jesus believed the “faith message”:
When His apostles asked Him to “increase their faith” He would have told them that to make their faith strong they needed to exercise it daily like a muscle, by “believing God” for their desires, needs, etc.; letting their faith (spiritual substance) “stand in the gap” until the full manifestation of what they are “believing for” comes to pass.

Instead, Jesus told them:
If they had persuasion, belief, trust and reliance in God, as small as a grain of mustard seed, that would be enough to do the impossible.
Jesus did not teach that we need to build up our “faith”; instead, He knew that our heavenly Father has given to each of us “The Measure” of faith, and that is more than enough.

If Peter believed the “faith message”:
Why didn’t he teach it after he and John had healed the lame man at the gate called Beautiful?
This would have been the perfect time to teach “the faith message” to those who were wondering how this healing had occurred. Peter would have explained that it was his own Spiritual Substance of Power, his own Spiritual Prowess, which came from his own Great Faith that healed this man.

Instead, Peter told them:
Why do you look so earnestly on us, as though by our own power or holiness we had made this man to walk?
Peter then preaches Jesus The Messiah to them and reveals how the man was healed:
And His name; Jesus’ Name, Authority, Character; through persuasion, belief, trust and reliance in Jesus’ Name, Authority, Character, has made this man strong. Luke 9:1-2, 10:1,9,16-17
Peter tells them it was Jesus The Messiah who healed this man not their own “spiritual prowess”.

If Paul believed the “faith message”:
He would have told Timothy to continue drinking that contaminated water and “believe God” to make it pure for him.
He also would have “confessed” perfect health over both Timothy and Trophimus.

Instead, Paul told Timothy:
Do not drink the water any longer [because it is contaminated], but use a little wine for your stomach's sake [it will help heal your stomach sickness] and your often infirmities. Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick.


*** Which Gospel? God's or Man's? ***


Back to “Jman’s” insightful statement: “No faith stands… until we figure out why the signs and wonders are missing. Something is wrong.”

Jesus told us to “go into the whole world, and preach the gospel to everyone. He that believes and is baptized shall be saved; but he that does not believe shall be damned. And these signs shall follow them that believe; in my name they shall cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

And they went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming The Word with signs following. Amen.”

The answer is clear when you understand what Jesus said He would confirm with signs following.

Jesus promised to confirm only one thing with signs following: “The Gospel according to God’s Word”.
If there are no signs, it is because we are preaching a different Gospel; not the Gospel according to God’s Word!


The “faith message” is a false gospel.

The Biblical word gospel means: a good message.

G2098 euaggelion From the same as G2097; a good message, that is, the gospel: - gospel.

The “gospel” is the foundational message upon which all of your beliefs rest.
The "gospel” is the message of salvation by grace through the sacrifice of Jesus which restores us to a right standing with God.
The "gospel” is the message that we tell everyone as we evangelize the world in obedience to Jesus who commanded us to:
Go into all the world, and preach the good message of salvation through Jesus’ death on the cross, to every creature.
He that is persuaded by the good message, and believes the good message, and is baptized shall be saved;
but he that does not believe [The gospel/good message] shall be damned.

If you believe a false gospel (your foundational message) you are not a Christian, because, there is only one gospel.

I marvel that you are so soon removed from Him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: which is really no gospel at all;
except there are certain people who trouble you, and wish to pervert the gospel of Christ.
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto
you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than
that you have received, let him be accursed. For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I
yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ. But I declare to you, brethren, that the gospel which was
preached of me is not made up by man.

As a Christian, I am only interested in what God means when He uses a word.
What does the word faith or sub-stance mean according to God’s Word The Bible?
The words believe and faith are related to each other. They have similar meanings. (see above: G4104, pistis; G3982, peitho; and G4100, pisteuo)
Except for Heb 10:23 (which is the word G1680, elpis; which means expectation or confidence) every time the word “faith” is used in the New Testament (regardless of which verse you are using) it is the same word pistis, it means the same thing: persuasion, belief, trust and reliance in God.
And sub-stance means: hupostasis: under (sub); and to stand (stance); a setting under (support) or foundation.


The “faith” of “The Faith Message” is based upon an incorrect English translation and a misunderstanding of the definitions of two Greek words, pistis (faith) and hupostasis (sub-stance).
And,
An unbiblical, foundational emphasis based on only four words: “faith is the substance”:
Which is believed to mean: “faith is a spiritual substance”, “a spiritual substance of power”.


The “faith message” teaches faith as a work that we are responsible to produce for ourselves, for our own salvation: Thy Faith Has Saved Thee! You must work out your own salvation with fear and trembling!

The Biblical word “faith” cannot be the foundation for a belief in a mystical, spiritual substance of “power” released by us when we truly “believe” because: faith means persuasion, belief, trust and reliance in God: and, sub-stance means foundation.


The “faith message” is a false gospel designed by men, who “use” God’s Word to teach unbiblical doctrines that seem correct/Biblical to those of us who are following them, because, they “use” the Bible to “prove” their unorthodox teachings as “christian”.
These men apply a form of “biblical” interpretation called eisegesis; which allows them to interject their own personal ideas/beliefs/understanding into their “interpretation” of the bible; which they then present as “biblical” by means of biblical “proof-texting”. They start by taking their own unbiblical doctrine(s) and then “seek out” verses that say/prove what they believe; providing “proof” from the “text” of the bible that it is “biblical”. This often requires that certain words, or even whole verses, be taken out of their context, in order to be “understood” as they need/wish them to be.

Take for instance the teaching that we alone are responsible to keep ourselves “saved”; which was (along with other verses) proof-texted with : “You must work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.”
Sounds right, it is what the Bible says. But, we were never told to read the second half of the verse, which adds:
“Because it is God who works in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.”
The balance provided by God’s word, persuades us that we can believe Him and trust in Him and rely on Him, to make sure that we not only desire to do His will; but, that God our Father, will empower us, by His Grace, to actually do His will.

This one should be very familiar:
We were taught to be careful about the words that we speak, because, just like God, we have the “power” to “speak things into being”. And, because we have this “power”, we must not make any “negative confessions” which can “snare” us, and cause us to not receive whatever it is we are “confessing into being”.
And the proof-text offered for this “biblical truth”:
“You are snared by the words of your mouth, you are taken by the words of your mouth.”
But when you look at the context of this verse, you find that, once again, it is only half of the sentence; which in context actually reads:
“My son, if you are surety for your friend [co-signer of his loan], if you have stricken your hand with a stranger [given your word that you will do something],
You are snared by the words of your mouth, you are taken by the words of your mouth.”
This simply means that, if a friend asks you to be a co-signer of his loan; and you promise that you will take on this obligation; or you promise to do something for a stranger:
Because “you gave your word”; you are obligated (“snared”) to keep your word/promise. Because, as a follower of The God of The Bible, Who says regarding promises He makes: “God is not a man, that He should lie; neither the son of man, that He should repent: has He said, and shall He not do it? or has He spoken, and shall He not make it good?”: we are also required to keep our word whenever we give it. Matthew 5:37


*** The Root of the "Faith Message" ***


I know that Hobart Freeman told us not to look into Kenyon’s past or teachings; but, after I left the “church”, I did.
I needed to find out what was wrong with what I believed.

The “faith message”, as it is currently believed/practiced, began with the teachings of a man named E.W. Kenyon.
Kenneth Hagin plagiarized Kenyon's "faith message"; and he taught it to Hobart Freeman and all the other "faith" teachers.

You may remember Tom Hamilton’s adage:
“People say that what we teach sounds like “christian science”! It’s not “christian science”; it’s christian sense.”

In 1892, E.W. Kenyon attended Emerson College, a “spiritual” institution inundated with metaphysical, cultic ideas and practices. Unitarianism, Metaphysics, New Thought, and Mary Baker Eddy’s “christian science” were some of the “spiritual” influences advocated and taught to students at this school.
Charles Mallory, a frequent guest lecturer at the college, said of Emerson College, This is a school where the philosophy of life is taught. It ought to be called, “The First Church of Emerson.”
The college was named for its founder Charles Wesley Emerson, who was a believer in, and an advocate of:
Unitarianism, Metaphysics, New Thought, Mary Baker Eddy’s “christian science”, and Phineas P. Quimby (Eddy’s mentor).


*** Believing/Following/Obeying God or Men ***


Jesus explains why people do not believe what He says:
You do not believe [what I say], because you are not of My sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
He that is of God hears, listens to, and obeys God's words: you therefore do not hear, listen to, and obey them, because you are not of God.

This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
But in vain do they worship me, for they teach man-made ideas as commands from God.
You ignore God's commandments, and you are holding on to the teachings that men have made up.
And He said unto them, Full well you reject the commandment of God, so that you may keep your own tradition.

Either we are following the teachings of men or we are following God according to His Word.

The following story illustrates the point:

Not long ago, my wife and I invited an “assistant pastor” (he held a job as a “pastor” for 25 years) from a local “Baptist” “church” to have him look into God’s Word with us to discuss the doctrines we hold as being Biblical i.e., clearly taught in the Bible. We thought we would start with something easy, like marriage/divorce/and remarriage, or tongues. We have often wondered how a Christian could possibly ignore the clear definition of adultery given by Jesus in Matthew 19:3-12, and allow anyone to remarry; regardless of Jesus’ one and only exception for remarriage; or annul the Biblical truth of “tongues” as plainly taught in 1Corinthians 14; I was hoping to dispel the misunderstanding about tongues, that comes from not recognizing that God is speaking about three different “kinds” of tongues in this chapter.

I thought the best way to start was to have us read these verses together, and then talk about them: simple enough?
But…
As our friend started to “read” from his Bible, my wife and I tried to follow along with him but couldn’t. We were all using the King James Version; yet, not even one word that he “read” from his Bible could be found in our King James Bibles. At first this caused much confusion; where are the words that he is “reading” from his bible? Why aren’t those words in our Bibles?

Then it dawned on us what was happening:
Instead of reading God’s Word to guide us/teach us about tongues… he was “reading” into his bible the “Baptist” doctrine of how “tongues” had passed away and were no longer necessary for the “church” during this time etc., etc., etc.

This not only astounded us, it became a valuable lesson, illustrating a serious problem endemic in the “church” and in “christians”:
They cannot read, believe, understand, follow, or obey God’s Word; because they only read, believe, understand, follow and obey the doctrines of men.

This man was hoping to indoctrinate us into the “Baptist” “teaching” about “tongues”.
What he did not know was that we are Jesus’ sheep, Christians, who know, believe and follow God/God’s Word. We cannot follow man’s teachings.

Without knowing it, this “pastor” became the “poster-boy” to illustrate exactly what is wrong with the “church” at this point in time: when “christians” “read” God’s Word, they can only hear what men told them to hear; they can only believe what men told them to believe; they can only understand what men told them to understand.

This “pastor” was incapable of even reading God’s Word without interjecting man’s interpretation/doctrines directly into the text of the Bible as he “reads” it.


This is frightening! Imagine what it would be like to never again hear from God through His Word. To only believe and follow what men tell you to believe and follow? To be incapable of reading God’s Word without filtering it through man’s ideas/interpretation/doctrines/beliefs. To always read God’s Word with a veil over your heart and mind.
Their minds were blinded: for until this day remains the same veil not taken away in the reading of God’s Word; which veil is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when God’s Word is read, the veil is upon their heart. Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the veil shall be taken away. Matthew 13:9, 13-15
They teach man-made ideas as if they were the Word of God.

And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: that they all might be damned who did not believe the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


I believe God’s people today are in the same position they were in when Jesus first came to turn them back to God/God’s Word: they didn’t believe or even know the Word of God anymore, because their “religious” “leaders” were teaching their own doctrines and not The Word of God. Mark 1:22,27, 11:18, Luke 4:32,36, John 7:15-17, Matthew 7:28, 22:33, 2 Cor 2:17, Colossians 2:18-22 2Tim 4:1-4, Titus 1:9-16


In the Bible, Christians are those who believe, trust and follow Jesus the Messiah. The Jesus revealed in God’s Word.

Throughout my life I have met, and know of, many people who identify themselves as:
“Catholics”
“Jehovah’s Witness’”
“Lutherans”
“Red Letter christians”
“Baptists”
“Methodists”
“Mormons”
“Charismatics”
“Overcomers”

And they admit they are following:
The Pope/church
The Watchtower/Awake/prophets
Martin Luther/church
The Social gospel/socialist/communist/”reformers”
Baptist teachings?
The Social gospel/socialist/communist/”reformers”
The Book of Mormon/Joseph Smith/Brigham Young/prophets
Anointed teachers/apostles/prophets/the Holy Spirit/the still small inner voice/personal revelations/”revelation knowledge”
The Faith Message/anointed teachers/apostles/prophets/the Holy Spirit/the still small inner voice/personal revelations/”revelation knowledge”


I once found someone online who had almost the exact/same testimony as mine, except, at the end of my testimony,
I became a Christian, a follower of Jesus The Messiah.
And at the end of his testimony, he became a “christian” AND, a “Lutheran”.

“christians” are unsaved “religious” people who are following men instead of following Jesus through God’s Word.
All the unbiblical beliefs that they hold to while disregarding the clear teaching of God’s Word to the contrary, are proof that they are following men and not God: Infant baptism, “Sacraments”, the “Eucharist”, the “Mass”, if you go to “church” you are a “christian”, etc.

These are more beliefs, taught by men, which are not found anywhere in the New Testament:

“Pleading The Blood of Jesus”,
“Believeing God For”,
“Anointed” teachers,
Only “anointed” teachers can “teach” God’s Word,
“The Fresh Bread from Heaven”/“The New Word of God”,
“Touch not the Lord’s anointed!”
Negative/positive “confessions”,
We have the power to “speak things into being”, just like God,
Christians calling themselves “The End Time Army of God”,
Christians calling themselves “Overcomers”,
Christians living a “Deeper Life”,
“The faith message” i.e., faith is a Spiritual Power.


*** Return to God's Word The Bible ***


When I started my journey with Messiah Jesus, my wife, my two brothers and I used to sit around with our Bibles open and talk about The Word of God. We used to discuss the Scriptures we had read, and wonder at how great God is. Those days were a great time of fellowship with each other around God’s Word. But, those times of sharing God’s Word ended when we joined “faith assembly” and I lost Christian fellowship with my brothers.

My first love was Jesus/God's Word. I would read my Bible (ten chapters) every day and talk about Jesus/God’s Word with every person I met. Deut 6:6-7.
This is what I believe Jesus meant about us recognizing that we had forsaken our first love, to remember where we were (spiritually) before we fell, and to stop going any farther in the wrong direction and repent (turn around), and do the first works again. Rev 2:4-5

God “woke me up” when I returned to my first love, about six years ago.
Now this is what I am holding on to: the salvation of my heart, soul, mind, body, and spirit by the Grace of God, which is the power of God, to keep me saved, and to keep me safe with Him, now and for all eternity.

I am persuaded by what God says to me in The Bible,
To believe what God says to me in The Bible,
To trust in God as my heavenly Father,
And to rely on my heavenly Father, to keep the promises, that He has persuaded me to believe.

If you continue in My word, then are you My disciples indeed; and you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
If the Son therefore shall make you free, you shall be free indeed.



Set Free by Jesus: The Word of God.

His servant and yours

Tom


Please! Read my entire testimony “How I Met The God Of The Bible” in “Introductions and General”.
It will help you to understand why I cannot/will not follow or believe the teachings of men.
The foundation for all of my beliefs was, and always will be God’s Word The Bible.
(Except for the six-year detour, when I followed/believed the faith message/Hobart Freeman.)

Please! Read and carefully consider this entire post before you bring up any questions.

Please! Look up the words “faith” and “substance” in “Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible” before you bring up any questions.

Please! Let’s stay on one subject at a time.

Please! Respond only to the main topic of this post which is:

The “faith message” is a false gospel based upon man-made ideas about “faith” being a Spiritual Substance of Power.
The entire foundation for their false gospel stands upon two mistranslated words: faith (is the) substance.
Which they falsely interpret as: faith is a Spiritual Substance, a Spiritual Substance of Power.
And so they misunderstand Heb 11:1 to say: Trust in My Own Spiritual Substance of Power is the only way I can obtain everything I hope for,
my Own Spiritual Substance of Power stands in the place of things I am "believing God for" but haven't yet seen.

But, God’s Word says:

Persuasion in God's Word, belief in God, trust in God and reliance on God alone, is the foundation of everything that I hope for,
persuasion in God's Word, belief in God, trust in God and reliance on God alone, is all the evidence I need to believe I will see Him fulfill all of His promises.

Biblical faith means:

God reasons with us through His Word The Bible,
and through His Word He persuades us to believe what He says,
which causes us to trust in Him and to rely on Him alone to fulfill His promises.


[Updated on: Thu, 06 June 2013 02:52]


Jesus told me this 33yrs ago: John 14:6 I still believe Him.

God's words shall be in your heart: you shall talk of them all day long. Deut 6:6-7

Test all things; Examine all things; Put all things on trial; Prove all things. 1Thes 5:21
Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith? [message #9515 is a reply to message #9514 ] Tue, 28 May 2013 15:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
wishing34  is currently offline wishing34
Messages: 212
Registered: March 2009
Senior Member
Hi Tom,

Regarding apostles . . .

You said:
--------------
Christians have never been without God’s apostles or prophets because God tells us:

We are of the household of God; and the household of God is built upon
“the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone.”

...and more ...
---------------

I would add that Eph 4 says apolstles are part of the church just like pastors.
and that the New Testament pattern is that apostles were part of the normal church

Which is why I say something is wrong since we never have seen apostles.

============================================================ ====
============================================================ ====




I think I read you to say that lack of apostles is an indicator that a church
(which is, of course, the people) is false - meaning that real believers will
have apostles while non-believers (even if sincerely self deceived) will not.

You said:
======================
The Church of God has never been without His apostles and prophets;
God’s people never will be without apostles and prophets as long as we continue to listen to/believe/obey God’s Word The Bible.
It is religious man’s “church” that is without God’s apostles and prophets.

Any child of God can listen to/believe/obey any of God’s true apostles and prophets any time we desire; with complete confidence and assurance that we are hearing The Eternal Word of God written for us at this present time: and this same Word will teach us throughout all of eternity.

=====================



The simple logic of what you say is neat and tidy. So let's just all join ourselves to
the churches where the apostles are. If we are self-deceived, false believers,
they can show us our errors. Better to find out now rather than later.

Many of us would have done this very thing except there are no apostles.

Your words read as if there are apostles. How could you possibly have
known of these men for even one day and not told us?

Please let us know where there are apostles and invite us to "try them
whose say they are apostles."


============================================================







Jman


--------------To busy to mess with sig--------------------



















Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith? [message #9516 is a reply to message #9515 ] Wed, 29 May 2013 05:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gary  is currently offline Gary
Messages: 870
Registered: August 2008
Location: Indiana
Senior Member
Quote:

Tom Wrote: I tried to show him the clear promises of Jesus that we have eternal life and cannot lose it:



It is possible to lose ones salvation. To go back into the world and partake of sin is the ticket to lose it. If this is not so why are there so many admonitions in the Word to avoid certain things in the world? Namely "sin"....



Quote:

I left because I knew that I wasn’t a very good “Overcomer”.


This does not sound like a good reason to leave anything. Its like me saying, I left my job because I could not build a house as good as the other guys on the jobsite. I know I am not as good a carpenter as them.

Jesus accepts everyone at every level, if we have a heart to seek and obey.


2 Corinthians 10:12-13

12 For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.

13 But we will not boast of things without our measure, but according to the measure of the rule which God hath distributed to us, a measure to reach even unto you.


Anyway this is all water under the bridge, what took place twenty years ago proves nothing. What matters is, Are we in right standing with the Lord today?

Today is the day of salvation what took place in the past is done and over with, we must all move on into a new chapter in our lives.

Gary



Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith? [message #9517 is a reply to message #9515 ] Wed, 29 May 2013 15:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
A_Smoking_Flax
Messages: 34
Registered: November 2012
Member

I'm sorry Jman, you seem to have missed my point:
God's true apostles are still here: the Word of God that they taught, is still here for us to read, learn from and obey; in God's Word The Bible.

I suppose that if anyone has successfully completed, all the teachings of Paul, John, Peter, etc. (by that I mean they are walking in perfection relating to everything that Jesus, through His apostles, has admonished us to think, say and do) I could see why they might need to find "new" apostles.

As for myself, I am so far behind in following/obeying the written Word of God that I do not personally see the need for any "new" apostles, or, "new" revelations.

God's Word is eternal; for all time and beyond; God's true apostles are still here for us as we follow God through His Word The Bible.

All scripture is God-breathed, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly equipped unto all good works.


Though...

This is not the main point of my post.

I think that we should try to take the false gospel of “the faith message” first.

The "faith message" is based upon wrong definitions of the words "faith" and "substance".
Therefore, the "faith message" is a false gospel.

We who have believed it were/are on the wrong track; we have been following men and not God.
This is why there are no signs ("signs" are not the main issue with God, see Luke 16:27-31, besides, "signs" prove nothing, if you are not following God’s Word). We are not preaching the gospel according to God's Word The Bible.

Whatever the “faith” teachers taught us (with few exceptions) is based upon the ideas of men presented as "biblical/christian", but they are not based upon the clear teaching of God's Word The Bible.
Christians will see this because even though we followed these men for a time, we are Jesus' sheep and we will always be brought back to Jesus. John 10:4-5,25-30

Tom


Jesus told me this 33yrs ago: John 14:6 I still believe Him.

God's words shall be in your heart: you shall talk of them all day long. Deut 6:6-7

Test all things; Examine all things; Put all things on trial; Prove all things. 1Thes 5:21
Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith? [message #9518 is a reply to message #9514 ] Wed, 29 May 2013 15:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
wishing34  is currently offline wishing34
Messages: 212
Registered: March 2009
Senior Member
Hi Tom

You said :

God's true apostles are still here: the Word of God that they taught, is still here for us to read, learn from and obey; in God's Word The Bible.
========

thanks for responding. Now I know what you mean.





Jman





---sig------------------------------------------------------ ------------

At the time of this post . . .

FA, the satellites, the spinoffs,and the FA diaspora have been having church
without apostles for 41 years and 149 days.
Initial start date 1/1/72


Recommended: No faith stands that strongly impact our (our children's) lives until we figure out
why the signs and wonders are missing. Something is wrong.






Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith? [message #9519 is a reply to message #9516 ] Wed, 29 May 2013 20:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
A_Smoking_Flax
Messages: 34
Registered: November 2012
Member
Gary…

Let me take your second point first.

As a Christian carpenter, if my work is not up to snuff, I am obligated to leave; so as not to give a bad witness to others.

I wasn’t measuring myself against others:
What drove me to leave the “church” wasn’t a concern about anyone else:

I was deeply concerned about my own imperfections, my own sin!
I was afraid of the effect my sin would have on our assembly being used of God for the “Greater Works” ministry He was preparing them for.


I left for the benefit of the other “Overcomers”.
I left to stop any hindrances to the “assembly” that may have been due to my lack of perfection.

The man who was our “anointed” “pastor” called me on the phone to ask me why I had not been coming to the meetings. He actually had no idea why he was calling, or that we had previously talked about my situation.
He was just giving me a “courtesy call”; you know, something a “pastor” is required to do every once in a while; to show people that he really cares.

Anyway: this “anointed” “pastor” agreed with my reasons for staying away, and he encouraged me not to come back until I “got things straightened out” on my own.
Ironically, he had just recently “taught” that anyone who feels that they should stay away from the meetings/”church” to get themselves “straightened out” on their own, is not doing the right thing.
He pointed out that we are required to stay the course and keep coming to the “church” because that is the only way to “get things straightened out”.
(Why he felt that this recent message did not apply to me, I can’t be sure; but, personally, I don’t think that he liked me very much. I think he was glad to find a way to be rid of me — apart from just telling me he didn’t want me in his “church”.)


Now to your belief that you can lose your salvation:

All I can say is, many people believe this man-made doctrine, but, I no longer believe men.
Because, either I choose to believe what men say.
Or, I choose to believe Jesus. And:

I am persuaded by God’s Word, to believe what He said, and to trust and rely on Jesus alone who tells me, over and over again:
I already possess eternal life! John 5:24, 6:35,37,39,40,44,47,50,51,54,57,58, 10:27-29, 11:25-26

Jesus said referring to those who had been doing miracles in His name I NEVER knew you; you were NEVER one of My sheep.
“My sheep hear My voice, and I KNOW them, and They follow Me: and I give to them eternal life; and
They shall NEVER [no, not at all, not by ANY means] perish,

[The word “never” (in the Greek) is an emphatic double negative; there isn’t any way at all for His sheep to perish!]
Neither shall ANY PERSON take them out of My hand.”
[I myself am a “person” so this promise includes me. I cannot perish myself!]

Every Work of God is Perfect, Complete, Lacking Nothing.
It is an insult to God’s Intelligence, Mercy and Compassion to say He doesn’t understand that:
When it comes to our ability to obey God: we are our own worst enemies.

God’s Perfect Work of Salvation would have to include saving us from our own unbelief, our own faithlessness, our own wandering, our own disobedience,
our own sinfulness, our own wickedness… in other words:
Our sinful, hopeless, evil, SELVES! Romans 3:10-12, Jeremiah 4:22, Micah 7:2, Luke 18:19

If I were to believe what you say, that it is possible to lose your salvation.
I would have to believe that Jesus was lying, or, didn’t know what He was talking about.

I am sorry…

When it comes to the clear teaching of Jesus saving me and giving me eternal life—Jesus says, that I already have eternal life: Jesus says, that I cannot lose it:
Jesus says, I shall never perish. I believe that Jesus is able to save me to the uttermost because I came unto God by Him.

Why would I ignore the clear Words of Jesus promising to keep me saved forever?

And believe the ideas of men, who, if I believe what they say, it would mean that Jesus was lying when He promised to save me for eternity?

For me the choice is clear:

I am persuaded by God, to believe what He says, and to trust what He says, and to rely on what He says in His Word The Bible.
I will believe and follow the Lord Jesus The Messiah!

I will never again believe/follow the made-up doctrines of men.

The Eternal Security of the Believer is too large a topic to go into here; besides:


The topic under discussion is:

The “faith message” is based upon wrong definition of the words “faith” and “substance”.
Therefore, the “faith message” is a false gospel.

Tom


[Updated on: Wed, 29 May 2013 20:11]


Jesus told me this 33yrs ago: John 14:6 I still believe Him.

God's words shall be in your heart: you shall talk of them all day long. Deut 6:6-7

Test all things; Examine all things; Put all things on trial; Prove all things. 1Thes 5:21
Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith? [message #9520 is a reply to message #9514 ] Wed, 29 May 2013 23:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
wishing34  is currently offline wishing34
Messages: 212
Registered: March 2009
Senior Member
Tom,

Regarding your premise that it is impossible to loose
one's genuine salvation . . .


How do you deal with Heb 6:4-6 ?






Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith? [message #9521 is a reply to message #9514 ] Wed, 29 May 2013 23:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
wishing34  is currently offline wishing34
Messages: 212
Registered: March 2009
Senior Member
Tom.

There is so much you say regarding faith that I cannot boil
it down into clear concepts.

Could you please walk through a modern faith example of
a person asking God for a specific thing. Say, for example, they have
a sore throat, and they are going to ask for it to be healed.

Go ahead and leave out Heb 11:1

Please describe the person's application of Mk 11:24
(believe receive now and shall have it later).

Please be concise.

Maybe draw a contrast between what you are saying and how
you remember it was taught.

Thanks.



Jman






-



[Updated on: Wed, 29 May 2013 23:45]






Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith? [message #9522 is a reply to message #9521 ] Thu, 30 May 2013 00:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mark L is currently online Mark L
Messages: 441
Registered: October 2006
Location: Canada
Senior Member
I'd like to respond to and discuss a number of the issues you brought up but it will have to wait for the weekend.
See you then Smile
Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith? [message #9523 is a reply to message #9519 ] Thu, 30 May 2013 06:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gary  is currently offline Gary
Messages: 870
Registered: August 2008
Location: Indiana
Senior Member
Tom,

I just went through the NT to see what did God say about faith and healing. This is just something I wanted to do so I would have better understanding of what the Bible is saying and not so much what I was taught it was saying.

Invariably I came away with the conclusion that Jesus is the one who was always bringing up a persons faith in Him.

The NT says, when the Son of Man returns will He find faith.

You do not realize how many times I have looked to the Lord by faith that He always came through for me. I have not come to some complete understanding of every aspect but I do know it works.

Will share more later on your other responses, thanks for being patient on this matter here, must contemplate all the subject matter.

GaryB


Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith? [message #9524 is a reply to message #9519 ] Thu, 30 May 2013 06:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gary  is currently offline Gary
Messages: 870
Registered: August 2008
Location: Indiana
Senior Member
Tom,

One more quick note. I must say that if we live in gross sin, I cannot expect a Holy God just to overlook some sin. Sin is an abomination to the Lord.

God sent His Son to the cross to make a way to forgive us of our sins and also to make a way where we can live above sin and not be slaves to it.

If we sin we have an advocate with the Father who will cleanse us of sin if we repent and confess it to Him.

But to continue serving sin and trying to find some loop hole in the Bible to excuse it I do not think this is something the Lord would support.

He is the one who made us free so we do not have to serve sin in our bodies.

If we shun sin and forsake it in our lives, then yes we will have the eternal state to look forward to, and nothing will pluck us out of the hands of a Holy God.

Gary






Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith? [message #9525 is a reply to message #9524 ] Thu, 30 May 2013 09:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
GWB  is currently offline GWB
Messages: 713
Registered: March 2008
Location: Louisville, Ky area
Senior Member
I have learned that faith works by going through grace, first.

Is this a part of what you are trying to convey?


Shalom,

GWB

"Be still and know that I am God."
Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith? [message #9526 is a reply to message #9525 ] Thu, 30 May 2013 11:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mark L is currently online Mark L
Messages: 441
Registered: October 2006
Location: Canada
Senior Member
I have taken a very quick look at your post here and really disagree with much of what you said. You also ( with no criticism intended) don't seem to have a very solid grasp of the faith message and what was actually taught.

Here is an example speaking of salvation . . .

Sounds right, it is what the Bible says. But, we were never told to read the second half of the verse, which adds:
“Because it is God who works in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.”


The teaching was that as we persevere God preserves. There is an abundance of scripture speaking to both sides of the issue. All you have done is quote all the vs that speak to God preserving. Which he does. But there is also an obligation on us to hold fast to it. Much scripture on that point.

You are confusing God's elective process which starts and ends in Gods own heart with the work of salvation in this world. Gods preserves as we persevere. A two way street with both of us involved. And as anyone who has gone through anything serious knows sometimes it is God doing a whole lot of preserving

Also you seem to be confusing a lot of info from the "word of faith" people with the faith message. And admittedly there is a lot of everlap. But even leaving aside that most of them teach JDS they go far too far with their teaching on faith. I saw that with just a quick reading of your post here.

Also HEF did not teach sinless perfection in this life. He tauht there was a perfection attainable here but it is mainly a perfection of maturity the fruits of the spirit and love. That is right in the deeper life book.

If I have misrepresented your positions here I apologize. I have only had time to do a quick reading.

[Updated on: Thu, 30 May 2013 12:21]

Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith? [message #9527 is a reply to message #9526 ] Thu, 30 May 2013 17:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
A_Smoking_Flax
Messages: 34
Registered: November 2012
Member
Please…

Before we go any further…

We can discuss the various subjects in my post at a later date, I you wish.

But, for the present:
As a starting point, we need to establish which definition is true according to God’s Word:

Is Biblical faith:

An actual, tangible, Spiritual Substance; a real Spiritual Power which is released by us through the act of “believing”:
A Power that we are required to obtain for ourselves; to store it up; to strengthen it; so that we will become “strong in faith”.
The same Spiritual Substance of Power that God used to make the universe:
Through [the spiritual substance of] faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God.
We understand that it was through the spiritual substance of faith that God made everything by speaking the Word of Faith.

Or,

Is Biblical faith:

Persuasion in what God says, which causes us to Believe God, and to Trust in God, and Rely on God alone to fulfill His Promises?


Can we please first establish the Biblical definitions of the words “faith” and “substance”?


If you haven’t done so; please look them up in “Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of The Bible”.

If I am wrong about the clear Biblical meaning of the Greek words pistis “faith” and hupostasis “sub-stance”:
Explain how I have misunderstood them.

If I am wrong about the clear Biblical meaning of the Greek words pistis “faith” and hupostasis “sub-stance”:
What do they actually mean, and where did you get your definitions?

I am only interested in what God means when He uses a Word: what do these Words mean according to God’s Word The Bible?


If faith means Persuasion, belief, trust and reliance on God, and… Sub-stance means Foundation:

Then “The Faith Message” is a false gospel, whose foundation is the man-made idea that “faith is a Spiritual Substance of Power”.


This is the topic I would like to explore with you. Please leave the other topics for some later date.


His servant and yours

Tom

P.S.

If you do not have a “Strong’s”, you can get one with the computer program “e-Sword” at www.e-sword.com.
The program is free. You download it to your computer, so you can use it at any time, without having to go online.
It comes with the King James Version of the Bible, and I think you can download several other versions free as well.
But, I need to caution you about a few things relating to "e-Sword". The other versions of the “bible” that come free are
NOT Bibles written by God for His children; instead, they are “bibles” written by men for men; containing men’s understanding,
and men’s ideas/beliefs. It also comes with “men’s commentaries”, and I have found very few of them to be of any help at all.

I can only recommend the “commentaries” of Wesley (John Wesley’s Explanatory Notes),
Gill (John Gill’s Exposition of the Entire Bible),
and Henry (Matthew Henry’s Commentary on the Whole Bible).
I suggest that if you want to find his thoughts on any particular subject, you first use
MHCC (Matthew Henry’s Concise Commentary) which is his “shortened/edited” version of his commentary.

I must add this caveat;
I have found these three commentators helpful only on occasion, I have often found that what they believe the passage is
saying is NOT what I believe the passage is saying. I do however find; that what I see in God’s Word is sometimes seen by
others as well. Even though I seek out confirmation or refutation of my exegesis, I still trust and believe God’s Word alone as
my final Authority.


[Updated on: Thu, 30 May 2013 17:40]


Jesus told me this 33yrs ago: John 14:6 I still believe Him.

God's words shall be in your heart: you shall talk of them all day long. Deut 6:6-7

Test all things; Examine all things; Put all things on trial; Prove all things. 1Thes 5:21
Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith? [message #9528 is a reply to message #9514 ] Thu, 30 May 2013 23:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
wishing34  is currently offline wishing34
Messages: 212
Registered: March 2009
Senior Member
Tom,

Regarding faith . . .

I say faith is believe you receive when you pray. - comes from Mk 11:24


Definitions from the 1800's, 1900's, or 2000's are not proving anything. You
need to demonstrate the common word usage in the first century - the Bible
was written to normal people of that era not the 1800's.

If you want to remove Heb 11:1 ( the substance idea ) then go ahead . . . for yourself.
You can still have a vibrant faith doctrine.
And if others believe faith is a spiritual substance it is not a "false gospel".


You can call it persuasion or anything you want as long as you
believe you receive when you pray = BRWP .

This BRWP faith is how people get saved and how they get other things from God.

Please communicate how your faith concept works if it is different than BRWP.
This will be the main point of discussions about what faith is.

=======================

Beyond that you seem to be debating the irresistible grace and perseverance of
the saints of Calvinism. This debate is never ending if someone wants to haggle
because it contrasts man's responsibility and freewill over against God's sovereignty,
predestination and election of the saints, and foreknowledge of all man's (free) choices. Pretty heavy stuff.

This Calvanism debate is not worth doing in my opinion. "Strong" proof texts can be had
on both sides of the issue. In the end both sides of the debate are Biblically true even though they
seem contradictory to our limited minds.

If you do not want to address Heb 6:4-6 regarding loosing a genuine salvation then don't,
but you can convince no one of your ideas if they are manifestly contrary to Scripture.



==========================




Jman




---sig------------------------------------------------------ ------------

At the time of this post . . .

FA, the satellites, the spinoffs,and the FA diaspora have been having church
without apostles for 41 years and 150 days.
Initial start date 1/1/72


Recommended: No faith stands that strongly impact our (our children's) lives until we figure out
why the signs and wonders are missing. Something is wrong.


[Updated on: Thu, 30 May 2013 23:16]






Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith? [message #9529 is a reply to message #9528 ] Fri, 31 May 2013 08:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gary  is currently offline Gary
Messages: 870
Registered: August 2008
Location: Indiana
Senior Member
Quote:

Tom wrote: Please…

Before we go any further…

We can discuss the various subjects in my post at a later date, I you wish.

But, for the present:
As a starting point, we need to establish which definition is true according to God’s Word:


I can understand your concern not to veer off of a topic.

Here is my thinking on this, the Word of God is spiritually discerned and to be able to understand what the Spirit of God is showing us, we must be walking in the Spirit.

If a person is involved in sin and has sin in their lives then they become blinded to the Word of God, at that point we're only disputing over "words" and generally its something pulled out of context.

Romans 6:13-15

I do think it is all tied in together and is relative, in this case because you are claiming that the faith message is a false gospel.

Quote:

Tom Wrote: I think that we should try to take the false gospel of “the faith message” first.


Tom

For one thing the faith message is not a "Gospel". There are only four Gospels. The faith message is something that Jesus mentions to each individual He came in contact with while ministering. That is why "He said", you have little faith, no faith, great faith, your faith has made you whole, etc. etc..

This message is within the Gospels.

Secondly the scripture you give in Hebrews 11:1 needs to be taken into context with all the following verses which explain what God is trying to show about those with faith.

So I hope you can see and understand that sin blinded those in Israel from the things of God, and it can blind a man today as well. This is why the Bible speaks against sin in a believers life.

This is my main concern here that any individual with admitted sin in their life can be blinded to the simple truths found in the Bible. This is why I think we should address the whole subject matter that you shared here.

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Gary










Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith? [message #9530 is a reply to message #9514 ] Sat, 01 June 2013 13:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
Messages: 1932
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL
Senior Member
A_Smoking_Flax wrote on Tue, 28 May 2013 01:28




Am I misunderstanding what is going on, or has the original post been deleted? By Tom?, William?, or a moderator? How can the post be discussed if it can't be read(especially since it's so long...after all, it took Tom months to write, and it's taken me days to go through it) Hope it's not a case of someone being offended(taking their ball and going home.)

I have noticed that almost EVERYONE has logged on to read the post and yet only a few have replied...My excuse,lol, is that my computer time is limited, so imagine my supprise today when I logged in to find 15 comments. BTW: I don't know if Tom did this with everyone or not but I have the entire post as a PM, if others do they can still go over the contents of the post.

While I've always thought there were mis-applications of the Biblical truth of FAITH (probably always has been and always will be...myself included) and how to apply it to daily life, I am "PERSUADED" that God's Word is true. And I believe not only in the "promises ", but I believe in He who made the promises, God Himself.

Also, for those who enjoy debating with others, you can't be a very successful debater if you're easily offended by someone taking an opposing viewpoint. If you're convienced you're 'right' concerning the 'faith message' being false, then prove it. Again when one says 'faith message' that doesn't always mean the same thing to every person. I believe the 'faith message' as taught by those who also teach the 'prosperity message' today as seen usually on TBN, GodTV, The Church Channel, ect. are teaching a false 'gospel/message'.

Though human logic will easily lead a person to 'like' this 'gospel'...(remember, gospel means good news) and the easy to follow directions of giving<sowing> X amout of money in order to get X times 100 back is indeed 'good news' to those who are motivated by greed and self-centerness.

Final thought, if true faith is present in our lives (faith that we've experienced personally through relationship with God) we won't be afraid to discuss or examine what we believe.

Love to all...


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith? [message #9531 is a reply to message #9525 ] Sat, 01 June 2013 16:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
A_Smoking_Flax
Messages: 34
Registered: November 2012
Member

Gillyann,

I am Sorry that I took so long to answer you.

Yes, you are correct. If it wasn't for The Grace of God I wouldn't be saved, or able to understand Him, believe Him, or obey Him.

Because by grace we are saved through persuasion, belief, trust and reliance in Him; and that is not of ourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Now unto him that is able to keep us from falling, and to present us faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy, to the only wise God our Savior, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and forever. Amen.

His servant and yours

Tom



Jesus told me this 33yrs ago: John 14:6 I still believe Him.

God's words shall be in your heart: you shall talk of them all day long. Deut 6:6-7

Test all things; Examine all things; Put all things on trial; Prove all things. 1Thes 5:21
Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith? [message #9532 is a reply to message #9530 ] Sun, 02 June 2013 05:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gary  is currently offline Gary
Messages: 870
Registered: August 2008
Location: Indiana
Senior Member
Quote:

A_Smoking_Flax wrote on Tue, 28 May 2013 01:28































Quote:

James Wrote: Am I misunderstanding what is going on, or has the original post been deleted? By Tom?, William?, or a moderator? How can the post be discussed if it can't be read(especially since it's so long...after all, it took Tom months to write, and it's taken me days to go through it) Hope it's not a case of someone being offended(taking their ball and going home.)



Laughing You Alabaminions do have a sense of humor. Rolling Eyes







Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith? [message #9533 is a reply to message #9532 ] Sun, 02 June 2013 09:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mark L is currently online Mark L
Messages: 441
Registered: October 2006
Location: Canada
Senior Member
Biblical faith means: Being so persuaded by what our heavenly Father says in His Word, that it causes us to believe what He says,
and we then trust in Him, and rely on Him alone to do what He promised in His Word The Bible.



I have no problem with that at all. But you are setting that against faith being what one uses to believe "with"

In other words it is not just mental assent. We are believing with the heart.

Faith is the persuasion or foundation with which we respond to God. It is the evidence we have the answer we seek.

It is by grace through faith. His unmerited favor upon us in causing us to hear the gospel. It is that faith (persuasion foundation evidence) that God uses to make the answer out of. In this case the cleansing and renewal of a persons life.




[Updated on: Sun, 02 June 2013 21:52]

Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith? [message #9546 is a reply to message #9533 ] Fri, 07 June 2013 09:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
Messages: 1932
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL
Senior Member
"Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." Gal.3:6


"By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went." Hebrews 11:8

"...Obeyed, and he went out, not knowing whither he went."

Is this not "blind faith " ? Abraham believed God was who He revealed Himself to be, and that He would do what He promised him He would do...he didn't attempt to 'reason it out' or grasp it with his intellect...he believed and obeyed...and as promised, God delivered.


"Faith never knows where it is being lead, but it loves and knows the One who is leading." Oswald Chambers


"Let God be true but every man a liar, is the language of true faith." A W Tozer


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith? [message #9547 is a reply to message #9546 ] Sat, 08 June 2013 15:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
A_Smoking_Flax
Messages: 34
Registered: November 2012
Member

PLEASE! PLEASE!

Read the Biblical definitions of the words “faith” and “substance” before you continue to teach me about “the faith message”.

The same “faith message” that I have known and understood for 33 years.
The same “faith message” that I followed, with full knowledge and understanding, for six years, i.e., I lived by “faith” for six years.

Please do not attempt to ignore my simple request to go to “Strong’s” and read these definitions for yourself because of an unfounded presupposition:
That I have never been a follower of “the faith message” or never actually understood “the faith message”.

I was raised in “the faith message”.

I know everything that you know about “the faith message”.
I understand everything that you understand about “the faith message”.
I believed everything that you believe about “the faith message”.
------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------

I am asking each of you that have participated in this post, here and in the original post in “Theological Doctrine” under the heading “The Occult”,
to answer this one question before we continue:

MARK L, WILLIAM, GILLYANN, JAMES, GARY, RON, SUE, AND “JMAN”:

HAVE YOU LOOKED UP THE DEFINITION OF THE WORDS “FAITH” AND “SUB-STANCE” IN “STRONG’S EXHAUSTIVE CONCORDANCE OF THE BIBLE”?
------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------ ---------------------------------------------

The Topic of My Post; The Topic That I Wish To Discuss, Is:
What Is The Biblical Meaning Of The Word Translated “Faith”?

PLEASE LOOK UP THE DEFINITION OF THE WORDS PISTIS/FAITH AND HUPOSTASIS/SUB-STANCE IN “STRONG’S EXHAUSTIVE CONCORDANCE OF THE BIBLE”.
AND EXPLAIN TO ME HOW I HAVE MISUNDERSTOOD THE CLEAR MEANING OF THESE TWO SIMPLE WORDS?
------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------ -----------------------------------------------


The Biblical definition of the word which is translated faith is persuasion.

FAITH [Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of The Bible]
G4102 pistis (From G3982; Believe)

Persuasion,
that is, credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation;
abstractly constancy in such profession; by extension the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself: - assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.

Persuasion
1. The act of persuading; the act of influencing the mind by arguments or reasons
2. The state of being persuaded or convinced; settled opinion or conviction proceeding from arguments and reasons

Credence

1. Belief; credit; reliance of the mind on evidence of facts derived from other sources than personal knowledge, as from the testimony of others

Conviction

1. The act of proving, determining to be guilty of an offense charged against a person before a legal tribunal; as by the verdict of a jury.

Reliance

1. Rest or repose of mind, resulting from a full belief of the veracity or integrity of a person, or of the certainty of a fact; trust; confidence; dependence.
We may have perfect reliance on the promises of God

Constancy

1. Fixedness; a standing firm 2. Fixedness or firmness of mind; 3. Certainty; veracity; reality.

Veracity
n. [L. verax, from verus, true.]
1. Habitual observance of truth, or habitual truth 2. Invariable expression of truth

BELIEVE
[Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of The Bible]
G3982 peitho (the root word of faith)
A primary verb; to convince (by argument, true or false); by analogy to pacify or conciliate (by other fair means); reflexively or passively to assent (to evidence or authority),
to rely (by inward certainty):
- agree, assure, believe, have confidence, be (wax) content, make friend, obey,[b] persuade, trust, yield.

Convince
v.t. [L., to vanquish.]
1. To persuade or satisfy the mind by evidence; to subdue the opposition of the mind to truth
2. To convict; to prove 3. To substantiate; to prove.


Believe (pisteuo): is used 250 times throughout the New Testament and is translated: believe, believers, believing, believest, believeth, believed, trust.
Its origin is from the word Faith.

BELIEVE
[Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of The Bible]
G4100 pisteuo (From G4102; faith)
to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person
or thing), that is, credit; by implication to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well being to Christ):-
believe (-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.

Credit

1. Belief; faith; a reliance or resting of the mind on the truth of something said or done.

Trust
1. Confidence; a reliance or resting of the mind on the integrity, veracity, justice, friendship or other sound principle of another person.
2. He or that which is the ground of confidence.

Confidence

1. A trusting, or reliance; an assurance of mind or firm belief in the integrity, stability or veracity of another, or in the truth and reality of a fact.


Biblical Faith is:
Persuasion
in what God tells us, which convinces us to believe God, and to trust in God, and to rely on God alone to perform what He said in His Word.


*** The Greek Word Translated Substance ***


Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance…

The biblical meaning of the word faith is clear; it means persuasion.

The biblical meaning of the word substance is also clear.


Substance
[Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of The Bible]
G5287 hupostasis
From a compound of G5259: hupo, under; and G2476: histemi, to stand; a setting under (support)

You can see the basis of the word substance, when you take the word apart, sub and stance:
sub; under, beneath, and stance; to stand. Foundation would be a better translation of the word.

So instead of faith being a spiritual substance of power and our prowess/ability to use it;
Hebrews 11:1 would be better translated as:

Now persuasion in God’s Word is the foundation of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Or expanded it could read:

Persuasion in God, belief in God, trust in God, and reliance on God alone is the foundation of everything I hope for;
Persuasion in God, belief in God, trust in God, and reliance on God alone is the evidence of things I have not yet seen.

There is no “power” in biblical faith.
The word faith simply means God has persuaded us through His Word, to believe Him, and because we believe Him,
we trust in Him, and rely on Him alone to fulfill His Promises to us.

Biblical faith is not belief/faith in our own mastery of a “Spiritual Substance of Power”, what some have described as “having faith in our faith”.

PLEASE! PLEASE!

Look up these two words.

His servant and yours

Tom

[Updated on: Sat, 08 June 2013 16:00]


Jesus told me this 33yrs ago: John 14:6 I still believe Him.

God's words shall be in your heart: you shall talk of them all day long. Deut 6:6-7

Test all things; Examine all things; Put all things on trial; Prove all things. 1Thes 5:21
Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith? [message #9548 is a reply to message #9530 ] Sat, 08 June 2013 21:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
Messages: 1932
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Location: Birmingham, AL
Senior Member
james wrote on Sat, 01 June 2013 13:00


While I've always thought there were mis-applications of the Biblical truth of FAITH (probably always has been and always will be...myself included) and how to apply it to daily life, I am "PERSUADED" that God's Word is true. And I believe not only in the "promises ", but I believe in He who made the promises, God Himself.


Tom,

First I doubt any of us could teach you anything, so don't presume that I'm trying. And I did look the two words up as you requested. Actually I'm not even sure what your point is, to me it seems that you're convienced that if a person (Christian/christian) doesn't or didn't define the words as you chose to, or happen to use the same reference books (Strong's) you use then they don't know or have true Biblical faith. Some use F-A-I-T-H...Forsaking All I Trust Him. Others use what the Bible says, Heb.11:1, yet those who are born again know that regardless of how one attempts to articulates what they have experienced and know they have received of God, their faith is in God and God alone.

And speaking for myself only, but being fairly confident in what the other members here believe, I don't think anyone would or has ever disagreed with the definitions found in Strong's that you copied.

Bottom line...I'm saved by faith (believing, being persuaded, convienced, ect.) in what Jesus did on my behalf at Calvary in paying for my sins with His sinless, pure, Holy Blood, because He alone was/is the acceptable sacrifice. I'm healed by faith (by believing, being persuaded, convienced, ect.) in what God's Word tells me that Jesus did on my behalf (by His stripes I am healed) and so it goes for whatever I'm trusting/believing Him for...protection, deliverance, wisdom, forgiveness, mercy, producing fruit of righteousness, ect. I receive it from Him by believing, asking, and expecting...because I'm an overcomer? NO! because I'm special above others? NO! No, I receive because I am trusting Him to do what He said He would do...Just like I was saved, I believed in my heart that He, Jesus, was The Son of God and died and rose again to reconcile me to God, and I confessed with my mouth what I believed in my heart...It was totally by His Grace, by faith...which was a freely given gift.

So I'm not sure just what your beef is with "the faith message", but the faith message I have received is obviously different than what you've received.


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith? [message #9549 is a reply to message #9548 ] Sat, 08 June 2013 21:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
Messages: 1188
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james wrote on Sat, 08 June 2013 21:05

james wrote on Sat, 01 June 2013 13:00


While I've always thought there were mis-applications of the Biblical truth of FAITH (probably always has been and always will be...myself included) and how to apply it to daily life, I am "PERSUADED" that God's Word is true. And I believe not only in the "promises ", but I believe in He who made the promises, God Himself.


Tom,

First I doubt any of us could teach you anything, so don't presume that I'm trying. And I did look the two words up as you requested. Actually I'm not even sure what your point is, to me it seems that you're convienced that if a person (Christian/christian) doesn't or didn't define the words as you chose to, or happen to use the same reference books (Strong's) you use then they don't know or have true Biblical faith. Some use F-A-I-T-H...Forsaking All I Trust Him. Others use what the Bible says, Heb.11:1, yet those who are born again know that regardless of how one attempts to articulates what they have experienced and know they have received of God, their faith is in God and God alone.

And speaking for myself only, but being fairly confident in what the other members here believe, I don't think anyone would or has ever disagreed with the definitions found in Strong's that you copied.

Bottom line...I'm saved by faith (believing, being persuaded, convienced, ect.) in what Jesus did on my behalf at Calvary in paying for my sins with His sinless, pure, Holy Blood, because He alone was/is the acceptable sacrifice. I'm healed by faith (by believing, being persuaded, convienced, ect.) in what God's Word tells me that Jesus did on my behalf (by His stripes I am healed) and so it goes for whatever I'm trusting/believing Him for...protection, deliverance, wisdom, forgiveness, mercy, producing fruit of righteousness, ect. I receive it from Him by believing, asking, and expecting...because I'm an overcomer? NO! because I'm special above others? NO! No, I receive because I am trusting Him to do what He said He would do...Just like I was saved, I believed in my heart that He, Jesus, was The Son of God and died and rose again to reconcile me to God, and I confessed with my mouth what I believed in my heart...It was totally by His Grace, by faith...which was a freely given gift.

So I'm not sure just what your beef is with "the faith message", but the faith message I have received is obviously different than what you've received.


Amen!


I want to believe!
Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith? [message #9550 is a reply to message #9514 ] Sat, 08 June 2013 23:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
wishing34  is currently offline wishing34
Messages: 212
Registered: March 2009
Senior Member
Hi Tom,

As you know the word for substance in Heb 11:1 is "hupostasis."



If you do an internet search for

"hupostasis in Bible"

and check out some of the top Google responses you
will find that the way we used to say it is a spiritual
substance is validated by scholars as one possible definition
of hupostasis.

================================

1) Would you accept that we are all in agreement that faith
is believing God? That it is done by believing you receive
when you pray? That it operates because believers are
fully PERSUADED that God will do what is promissed?

2) Would you accept that faith as a spiritual substance (as taught) is
a possible interpretation of Heb 11:1?

---

Assuming you agree with these two topics then maybe
move on to discuss if we were too proud of our faith or too focussed
on ourselves in place of God. Seems I remember you making those
points.

But drop the attacks that we had a false gospel and that the
faith message was incorrect.

And drop the the idea that using word definitions from Strongs
and modern English dictionaries is enough to make doctrine.

Knowing the Greek word definitions requires knowing the
Greek definitions used by the common people in the first century -
something we all go to scholars for - Thayers and Vines are
both more insightful than Strongs. Also a Greek lexicon is
pretty neat - a listing of every usage of each Greek word in
the New Testament.

=================================





Regarding the word definitions for faith and substance . . .



Faith is "believe you receive when you pray" - comes from
being fully persuaded, and persuasion comes from Word of God - Rom 10:17

-----

hupostasis can mean:


underlying essence
essence or substance - that which stands under the outward form
that which has foundation, is firm
that which has actual existence
a substance, real being
the substantial quality, nature, of a person or thing
(do the Google search and note the scholars)



so we are allowed to believe this as taught





Jman


=========================================================


At the time of this post . . .

FA, the satellites, the spinoffs,and the FA diaspora have been having church
without apostles for 41 years and 159 days.
Initial start date 1/1/72


Recommended: No faith stands that strongly impact our (our children's) lives until we figure out
why the signs and wonders are missing. Something is wrong.






Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith? [message #9551 is a reply to message #9550 ] Sun, 09 June 2013 12:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
Messages: 1188
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Jman has a good point which we see verified in almost every dictionary/lexicon dealing with words and their meanings.

For instance, when you look up any word you'll usually find multiple meanings of that word. Context determines the particular meaning. Speaking generally, the particular meaning that is adopted for a particular context excludes the other meanings. I say generally, because there may be times when the ideas expressed in the other primary or secondary senses help us to understand the fuller idea of the word but the job of the translator is to give us the best definition --the one that best expresses the intentions of the writer.

As a southerner I might say something like --"I walked into the 7/11 and bought me ah coke".

Someone unfamiliar with southern culture might translate the sense of my words and conclude that I bought me a Coca-Cola (a registered trademark of The Coca-Cola Company).

A person from the eastern seaboard might get closer to the meaning by saying that I had bought a "soda". A Hoosier might use the term "pop".

Now who would be right? Well, you'd need to look at the context to determine that. The context would probably lead a discerning person away from the technical term "coca-cola" because they would note that the insertion of the "me ah" (as in "bought me ah...") and conclude that they were translating the words of a red-neck from Alabama. Under these circumstances the translation would naturally reflect this and depending on the geography the most likely translation would be "pop" or "soda" or literally "a fizzy/carbonated beverage" -- not "Coca-Cola".

Context and culture are important ingredients when considering the sense of any text, scripture or otherwise.

I took Jman's advice and googled the term and this random site seemed to express a fair representation of the "hupostasis" controversy:

http://hopefaithprayer.com/faith/faith-is-hebrews-111-hupost asis/

Blessings,
William

[Updated on: Sun, 09 June 2013 13:02]


I want to believe!
Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith? [message #9552 is a reply to message #9551 ] Mon, 10 June 2013 06:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gary  is currently offline Gary
Messages: 870
Registered: August 2008
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William,

Very humorous analogy.

If I drank sugary drinks I would probably run down and get me ah a "Pop" about now as well. We use "me ah" up here as well. Smile

You learn something new everyday, I did not know also they had red necks in Alabama, I thought it was all "Southern gentlemen". Rolling Eyes

Gary
Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith? [message #9553 is a reply to message #9552 ] Mon, 10 June 2013 07:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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Alanbook wrote on Mon, 10 June 2013 06:15

We use "me ah" up here as well. Smile


I've heard-tell that some of our kin moved north after the aggression... say hello to great-grannie for me...


I want to believe!
Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith? [message #9556 is a reply to message #9553 ] Tue, 11 June 2013 19:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JWBTI  is currently offline JWBTI
Messages: 289
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Tom Wrote;
First: Shortly after I started my response to Mark L's post, I sustained serious nerve damage to my leg. The damage was so severe that I could no longer walk or sit upright very long without aggravating the damage and causing a lot of pain. One of the positions that aggravates the damage is sitting at my computer. As I stated before; the only position that helps lessen the pain is sitting in a lounge chair with my feet up and a heating pad on the damaged area. Recovery has been very slow, as is common with nerve damage, and I have been too active at times which has caused the past and current delays in my response time.

************************************************************ **************************

Praise God brother Tom,
You must have recovered from this trail as your responses have been forth coming. Could you share your thoughts and actions as you overcame this
Trail and what brought an end to this suffering and pain.


Ron
Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith? [message #9557 is a reply to message #9556 ] Wed, 12 June 2013 03:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
A_Smoking_Flax
Messages: 34
Registered: November 2012
Member
In this post I have answered questions raised by several of you.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Gary… You said:

“I just went through the NT to see what did God say about faith and healing. This is just something I wanted to do so
I would have better understanding of what the Bible is saying and not so much what I was taught it was saying.”

“Invariably I came away with the conclusion that Jesus is the one who was always bringing up a person’s faith [persuasion in God’s Word, belief in God’s Word, trust in God’s Word, and reliance on God’s Word].”



* That is correct; Jesus wants us to believe Him, trust in Him, and rely on Him alone; and to stop trusting in our own abilities/works.

============================================================ =======================

Gary said:

“The NT says, when the Son of Man returns will He find faith [people who have been so persuaded by what He says, that they believe what He says, and trust in Him, and rely on Him alone, to do what He promised].”



* That is correct; Jesus will be looking for those of us who have been persuaded by the reasons He gives us to believe in Him, trust in Him, and rely on Him alone.
He will be looking for those of us who have stopped trusting in our own abilities/works, and simply trust in Him.

============================================================ =======================

Gary said:

“Tom
For one thing the faith message is not a "Gospel". There are only four Gospels.
[The faith] message is within the Gospels.”



* You are confusing the man made “titles” of the four books written by Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John;
“The Gospel According To Matthew”, “The Gospel According To Mark, etc. with the Biblical word “gospel”.

The Biblical word “gospel” means: a good message.

G2098 euaggelion From the same as G2097; a good message, that is, the gospel: - gospel.

The “gospel” is the foundational message upon which all of your beliefs rest.
The "gospel” is the message of salvation by grace through the sacrifice of Jesus which restores us to a right standing with God.
The "gospel” is the message that we tell everyone as we evangelize the world in obedience to Jesus who commanded us to:
Go into all the world, and preach the good message of salvation through Jesus’ death on the cross, to every creature.
He that is persuaded by the good message, and believes the good message, and is baptized shall be saved;
but he that does not believe [the good message] shall be damned.

The entire Bible, everything that God has said to us, is “the gospel” the good message.

If you believe a false gospel (your foundational message) you are not a Christian, because, there is only one gospel.

I marvel that you are so soon removed from Him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: which is really no gospel at all;
except there are certain people who trouble you, and wish to pervert the gospel of Christ.
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you,
let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that you have received, let him be accursed.
For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.
But I declare to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not made up by man.

============================================================ =======================

Gary said:

“The faith message is something that Jesus mentions to each individual He came in contact with while ministering.”



* This is not true at all. Jesus does not mention “the faith message” to anyone, ever.

You are confusing Biblical faith that Jesus talked about, with the man made idea that “faith” is a Spiritual Substance of Power,
That “faith” is belief without any reason or evidence. These are ideas/doctrines made up by one man, E.W. Kenyon.

If Jesus believed the “faith message”:
When His apostles asked Him to “increase their faith” He would have told them that to make their faith strong they needed to exercise it daily like a muscle, by “believing God” for their desires, needs, etc.; letting their faith (spiritual substance) “stand in the gap” until the full manifestation of what they are “believing for” comes to pass.

Instead, Jesus told them:
If they had persuasion, belief, trust and reliance in God, as small as a grain of mustard seed, that would be enough to do the impossible.
Jesus did not teach that we need to build up our “faith”; instead,
He knew that our heavenly Father has given to each of us “The Measure” of faith, and that is more than enough.

============================================================ =======================

Gary said:

“That is why "He said", you have little faith, no faith, great faith, your faith has made you whole, etc. etc.”



* Faith means: persuasion, belief, trust, and reliance on God alone. Jesus wants us to have complete trust and reliance in Him alone:
Not trust in anything we can do to be saved/healed/etc., trusting in our own spiritual prowess/abilities/works.

============================================================ =======================

Gary said:

”This is my main concern here that any individual with admitted sin in their life can be blinded to the simple truths found in the Bible.
This is why I think we should address the whole subject matter that you shared here. 1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”



* Gary…

Am I to understand that you believe I am “in sin”?

And, because you believe that I am “in sin”:

You believe that I would be unable to read the Biblical definition from “Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of The Bible”.
And that I would be incapable of comprehending the meaning of the Greek word pistis/faith?
The same word that Jesus used when He taught us to trust and rely on God alone for salvation/healing/needs:?

Because you believe I am “in sin”, you think:

That is the reason I believe the Biblical definition of the word “faith”,
And not the false definition of faith believed/invented/taught by E.W. Kenyon:
Who taught it to Kenneth Hagin, who believed it and taught it to Hobart Freeman, Copeland, Et Al.?

My admitted lack of “sinless perfection” was 27 years ago? Do you believe that I have been “in sin” for 27 years?

Is it because I believe the Biblical meaning of the word faith; that you believe there is unrepentant “sin” in my life?

Am I also to understand that you are, at this present time, “without sin”? John 8:7

And, because you are “sinless”, and you believe that I am not;
You therefore can understand the biblical definition of the word “faith”, as it is defined in “Strong’s”, but, I cannot?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Mark L said:

“I have no problem with that [the Biblical definition of faith] that at all.
But you are setting that [the Biblical meaning of the word faith] against faith being what one uses to believe "with"



* That is correct: I am setting the Biblical definition of the Greek word that Jesus used and meant, against the man-made, false definition of the word “faith” that E.W. Kenyon misunderstood/invented and taught to Kenneth Hagin, who taught it to Hobart Freeman, Kenneth Copeland, Et Al.

THERE IS ONLY ONE “FAITH” in God’s Word The Bible.
(The only other meaning of the word “faith” is “The Christian Faith” i.e., the Biblical doctrines that make up “The Christian Faith”. Jude 1:3, 1Timothy 4:1)

There is only one Biblical meaning for the word that Jesus used when He was teaching us to believe God, to trust in God, and to rely on God alone for everything.

There is only one Biblical meaning for the word faith:


We are so persuaded by the reasons God gives to us, in His Word,
That those reasons cause us to believe what God says to us, in His Word,
And, because we believe what He says, in His Word, we trust in Him to do what He promised, in His Word,
And, because we trust Him to do what He promised, we rely on Him alone to fulfill all of the promises He made to us.

============================================================ =======================

Mark said:

“In other words it is not just mental assent. We are believing with the heart.”



* You have presented an unbiblical, false dichotomy: “mental assent” vs. “believing with the heart.”

Many people believe that there are two kinds of belief: mental assent or, “head knowledge”; and heart knowledge.
They believe that true “faith” is belief without any evidence or reason whatsoever.
They also believe, that this kind of “believing”, “heart knowledge”, is vastly superior to using your mind to “understand” God’s Word.

How does anyone get God’s Word “into their heart”?

Everyone who ever got God’s Word “into their heart”, got it “into their heart” by reading and understanding God’s Word.
We get God’s Word “into our heart” by asking God for “eyes to see” and “ears to hear” and for hearts and minds to understand His Word and obey it. Matthew 13:13-15

Because…

In God’s Word there is no disparity between the mind/understanding and the heart.
You cannot have heart knowledge without first having head knowledge/reason/understanding. They work together.

According to God’s Word:
If you do not understand God’s Word, Satan can take God’s Word out of your heart.
When any one hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes, and steals that which was sown in his heart.

Look up the Biblical meaning of the Greek word translated “heart”?

G2588 Kardia
The heart [the physical organ], that is, (figuratively) the thoughts or feelings (mind); also (by analogy) the middle.

Every time the word heart is used in The New Testament, it means the same thing: Your thoughts or feelings, your mind
(except for Eph 6:6 where it means a man’s “spirit”).

God links our hearts with our thoughts; even in the Old Testament (Heart: H3820, H3824).

Matthew 13:15,19,23 understand with their heart, (verse 19) When any one hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes, and steals that which was sown in his heart. (verse 23) But he that received seed into the good ground is he that hears the word, and understands it; which also bears fruit, and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

Matthew 9:4, 24:48, 22:37, You shall love the Lord thy God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.
Mark 12:30,33; Luke 2:19,35, 5:22, 9:47, 24:38; Hebrews 4:12; Proverbs 23:7

============================================================ =======================

Mark said:

“Faith is the persuasion or foundation with which we respond to God.”
“It is that faith (persuasion foundation evidence)…”



* You are confusing three different words, with three entirely different definitions, to mean “faith”.
Persuasion is the only one of these three words that is the Biblical definition of the word “faith”.

Foundation is the Biblical meaning of the word translated substance: sub-stance.
Evidence simply means proof.

You cannot change the definition of the word “faith” given to you by E.W. Kenyon, to incorporate the Biblical definitions of three unrelated words.

The definition of the word “faith” according to “the faith message” excludes all three of these words.
E.W. Kenyon believed that “faith” is belief without any reason or evidence whatsoever.
He also believed, disregarding the clear Biblical meanings of the words in Hebrews 11:1,
That “faith” is a Spiritual Substance, a Spiritual Substance of Power.
A Spiritual Power that we are required to obtain by ourselves and for OURSELVES and build it up and use day to day, minute to minute.
Trusting in OUR OWN FAITH to receive everything OUR hearts desire.

But God says:
By grace you have been saved, through faith;
This is not your own doing: it is the gift of God: not a result of anything you’ve done, so that no one may boast.


============================================================ =======================

Mark said:

“It is by grace through faith. His unmerited favor upon us in causing us to hear the gospel. It is that faith (persuasion foundation evidence) that God uses to make the answer out of. In this case the cleansing and renewal of a persons life.”



* This is a textbook definition of a “work”: “It is that “faith” that God uses to make the answer out of.”

God accepts what I have done and credits my “faith” account with my positive deed/work;
And only when I have enough credits, can He use what I give Him to perform what I want Him to do for me.

I’m sorry, but…

The God of the Bible does not use or need ANYTHING from ANYONE to do ANYTHING for ANYONE.


In complete contrast to the “faith” of “the faith message”:

The Biblical definition of the Greek word pistis, the Greek word that Jesus used when He taught God’s people the truth:
The word that Jesus used is not even remotely related to the meaning of the word “faith” of “the faith message”.
In fact, they are opposed to each other.

Man’s way teaches us to have “faith”/trust in OUR OWN “faith”.
The “faith” that WE PRODUCED BY OURSELVES, and built up into strong “faith” BY OURSELVES.
This is the Biblical definition of “works”.

God’s Word The Bible teaches us to be persuaded by what God says, to believe what God says, to trust and rely on God for everything,
And not trust in ourselves or anything that we can do; which includes producing OUR OWN “faith” to present to God for Him to use for OUR benefit.
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

By grace you have been saved, through faith; This is not your own doing:
It is the gift of God: not a result of anything you’ve done, so that no one may boast.


We are saved by grace…

Grace… is not our own doing!
Grace… is the gift of God!
Grace… is not a result of anything we’ve done!
It is by Grace… so that no one may boast.

Through faith…

Faith… is not our own doing!
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us.

Faith… is the gift of God!
God has dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Faith… is not a result of anything we’ve done!
But by the grace of God I am what I am: and His grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I labored
more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them.

Through faith… so that no one may boast.
Grace and peace be multiplied unto you… according as His divine power has given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness.
But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
But he that boasts, let him boast in the Lord.


There have always been only two ways: God’s way, or man’s way.



By Grace you have been saved, through faith!

Is it man centered?
I am saved by grace, through My Faith!
I am saved by grace; which God only gives, because I released My Spiritual Power of Faith.
It is only because I released My Spiritual Power of Faith, that God can save me by grace.

Or, is it God centered?

I am so persuaded by God, Who said He saved me by His Grace, that I believe I am saved by His Grace, and I trust in His gift of Grace for my salvation, and I rely on His free gift of Grace alone to save me for eternity.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

James said:

"By faith [persuasion in God’s promise, belief in God’s promise, trust and reliance in God alone to fulfill His promise] Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went." Hebrews 11:8”

"...Obeyed, and he went out, not knowing whither he went."

“Is this not "blind faith " ? Abraham believed God was who He revealed Himself to be, and that He would do what He promised him He would do...he didn't attempt to 'reason it out' or grasp it with his intellect...he believed and obeyed...and as promised, God delivered.”



* No! This is not “blind faith” at all.

In Biblical Christianity there is no such thing as “blind faith”.

God says:
Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD.

The word reason (H3198 yâkach) means:

A primitive root; to be right (that is, correct); reciprocally to argue; causatively to decide, justify or convict: -
argue, chasten, convince, correct (-ion), dispute, judge, plead, reason (together), rebuke, reprove.


This is not an example of “blind faith”.
It is, in fact, another example of the Biblical meaning of faith: persuasion!

God tells us why Abram left his country, kindred, and father’s house:

Abram left, because he was persuaded by the reasons that God gave him to leave:

God told Abram to leave:

“And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and you shall be a blessing:
And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curse thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
So Abram departed, as the LORD had told him.”

Abram was so persuaded by the reasons that God gave him to leave, that he believed what God had promised, and trusted in God,
And relied on God alone: to lead him to the land that He promised to show him.

Abram left not knowing specifically where he was going, but knowing that God promised to lead him to a specific place that He would show Abram when he got there.
Gen 12:1-4

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


Every Time You Read The Word “FAITH” In The New Testament…
(Except for Heb 10:23, and the few times that it means “the Christian faith”. 1Timothy 4:1)

Every Time You Read The Word “FAITH” In The New Testament It Means The Same Thing:


God reasons with us through His Word The Bible, And because of His reasons, we are persuaded to believe what He says,
And because we believe what He says, we trust in Him, And because we believe what He says,
we rely on Him alone to fulfill the promises, that He has persuaded us to believe.
(We have nothing to offer Him but filthy rags.)

We all understand what true persuasion/faith is:

You listen to a speech given by a man running for office.
You listen to the reasons that he gives you to vote for him; and you are persuaded by those reasons to believe him.
Because you believe him, you show your trust in what he promised to do by voting for him.
And then, you rely on him to do what he promised to do, once he gets into office.
You may even say to someone who asks you why you voted for him, “I have faith in this man; I trust him.”

*** *** ***

The choice is yours:
Every time you read the word “faith”, you can continue to believe what one man, E.W. Kenyon, believed and taught:
That “faith” is a Spiritual Substance of Power that we must acquire on our own, by which we receive everything in this life; from our own salvation, to all of the desires of our heart.

Remember that you are following the teachings of a man who believed that Jesus The Messiah, The Sinless, Holy, Righteous, Son of God, The Creator and The Savior of The World,
The Only Way, The Only Truth, The Only Source of Eternal Life, The Only One With The Eternal Words of God, The Word of God Incarnate: This Jesus…

E.W. Kenyon, the Father and originator of “the faith message”, believed that this Jesus… “became sin”.

I can only speak for myself, but,
Anyone who believes that the Jesus of The Bible was a sinner cannot be a Christian!
Furthermore, any doctrine, teaching or ideas coming from such a person COULD NOT be from God; but the Devil.

As far as I am concerned, the fact that E.W. Kenyon believed “Jesus Died Spiritually”, excludes him from being a source of any Christian doctrine at all, which includes “the faith message”.
Anything that E.W. Kenyon believed or taught is suspect; it cannot be trusted.
I cannot, I will not, believe or follow anything taught or believed by E.W. Kenyon or any of the “faith” teachers who believe and follow any of Kenyon’s ideas.
Teachers like Hobart Freeman, Kenneth Hagin, Kenneth Copeland, and all of the rest.

*** *** ***

I have not come here to destroy your belief in the false meaning of “faith” that was taught to you by E.W. Kenyon, through Hobart Freeman.
You can believe whatever/whomever you want to believe.
You have the right to follow any man that you choose to follow; and to believe whatever they tell you to believe.

I have come here to show you the true Biblical meaning of the two foundational words of “the faith message”; “faith” and “sub-stance”.

*** *** ***

As I said before, I am looking for Christians.
Christians follow Jesus; who is The Word of God; whom we know through reading and understanding The Bible.
Christians will hear the Word of God, turn away from the lies of men,
And follow Jesus, The Way, The Truth, The Life, The Only Way to The Father and Eternal Life.

Jesus tells us in God’s Word The Bible:
Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to listen to My message.
And because I tell you the truth, you do not believe Me. If I tell the truth, then why do you not believe Me?
He who belongs to God understands what God says. You do not understand because you do not belong to God.

But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me:
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of My hand.
My Father, which gave them to Me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of My Father's hand.
I and My Father are one.

*** *** ***

Mark L, William, Gillyann, James, Gary, Ron, Sue, and “Jman” I pray this prayer for all of you often.

Heavenly Father: please give them eyes to see, ears to hear, and hearts and minds to receive Your Word, understand Your Word, and obey Your Word.
Pour out Your Mercy and Grace upon them, grant them repentance and save them in Jesus’ Name and for His Glory!

I also pray this for myself, my wife, and all the Christians that I know.


His servant and yours

Tom

You can contact me at:

AsmokingFlax@live.com


Jesus told me this 33yrs ago: John 14:6 I still believe Him.

God's words shall be in your heart: you shall talk of them all day long. Deut 6:6-7

Test all things; Examine all things; Put all things on trial; Prove all things. 1Thes 5:21
Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith? [message #9558 is a reply to message #9557 ] Wed, 12 June 2013 16:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gary  is currently offline Gary
Messages: 870
Registered: August 2008
Location: Indiana
Senior Member
Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.





Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith? [message #9559 is a reply to message #9557 ] Wed, 12 June 2013 16:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JWBTI  is currently offline JWBTI
Messages: 289
Registered: March 2007
Location: Ohio
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Tom,

Do you believe that Smith Wigglesworth was a False teacher also, He got

His teachings from Gods Word And not man ?

Ok Tom,

If I follow what you say the word says….Then I’m following you….right !

If I follow what the Holy Spirit teaches, then I’m wrong because I follow not your

Teaching …..

TomYou said:
As I said before, I am looking for Christians.
Christians follow Jesus; who is The Word of God; whom we know through reading and understanding The Bible.
Christians will hear the Word of God, turn away from the lies of men,
And follow Jesus, The Way, The Truth, The Life, The Only Way to The Father and Eternal Life.


From this statement Bro Tom it seems that you don’t count us as being Christians,

cause We don’t follow Your Teachings.

We do follow Christ Jesus, His Word, His Way, His Truth, His Life to the Father.


Ron
Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith? [message #9560 is a reply to message #9514 ] Wed, 12 June 2013 17:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
wishing34  is currently offline wishing34
Messages: 212
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Senior Member
Hi Tom

You said:
I have come here to show you the true Biblical meaning of the two foundational words of “the faith message”; “faith” and “sub-stance”.

======================

To make any progress in my case you need to do 2 things

1) address how your faith definition relates to Believe you receive when you pray
which I consider the definition of "faith."

2) Show scholarship to counter the mucho respected scholars who say hupostasis in Heb11:1
includes the definition of "substance" as was taught.

------------------------------------------------



Your "persuation" argument (along with various word definitions) is an argument removed
from the Bible by "therefores"

For example -




Heb 11:1 says faith is "hupostasis"
Hupostasis definition is defined by the original first century Greek usage - Scholars
tell us the first century usage meant "substance" like as it was taught by HEF.

So the Bible Itself says faith is a substance like was taught.

Now you come along with "therefores"

Strongs says such and such , therefore Tom deduces . . . etc.
modern dictionaries says such and such therefore Tom deduces .... etc

So I can believe what the Bible actually says or I can believe Tom's theory
that includes a bunch of "therefores."






Eventually Tom concludes that the faith teachings were wrong, Hef and others
were a root of evil, and all who disagree are not His sheep.




Tom, I challenge you with this -
Consider if it is you who is wrong since what you are saying is patently
different from the Bible in Heb 11:1

You need to do more homework on "hupostasis."





====================================

Take a do-over ( golfers call it a Mulligan) concerning what you
said about not believing anything Kenyon, HEF, etc ever taught.
You will agree with them on a zillion topics and disagree on only a few.









Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith? [message #9561 is a reply to message #9557 ] Thu, 13 June 2013 19:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
Messages: 1932
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL
Senior Member
A_Smoking_Flax wrote on Wed, 12 June 2013 03:59



James said:

"By faith [persuasion in God’s promise, belief in God’s promise, trust and reliance in God alone to fulfill His promise] Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went." Hebrews 11:8”

"...Obeyed, and he went out, not knowing whither he went."

“Is this not "blind faith " ? Abraham believed God was who He revealed Himself to be, and that He would do what He promised him He would do...he didn't attempt to 'reason it out' or grasp it with his intellect...he believed and obeyed...and as promised, God delivered.”



* No! This is not “blind faith” at all.

In Biblical Christianity there is no such thing as “blind faith”.

God says:
Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD.

The word reason (H3198 yâkach) means:

A primitive root; to be right (that is, correct); reciprocally to argue; causatively to decide, justify or convict: -
argue, chasten, convince, correct (-ion), dispute, judge, plead, reason (together), rebuke, reprove.


This is not an example of “blind faith”.
It is, in fact, another example of the Biblical meaning of faith: persuasion!

God tells us why Abram left his country, kindred, and father’s house:

Abram left, because he was persuaded by the reasons that God gave him to leave:

God told Abram to leave:

“And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and you shall be a blessing:
And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curse thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
So Abram departed, as the LORD had told him.”

Abram was so persuaded by the reasons that God gave him to leave, that he believed what God had promised, and trusted in God,
And relied on God alone: to lead him to the land that He promised to show him.

Abram left not knowing specifically where he was going, but knowing that God promised to lead him to a specific place that He would show Abram when he got there.
Gen 12:1-4
[b]



Tom,

I think you once told me you liked movies, so as Paul Newman (Luke) was told by the captain in 'Cool Hand Luke', "What we have here is a failure to communicate." In my reference to "blind faith" I was refering to the examples used in Hebrews 11 where they (Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Sarah...) never received (in this life) the promises of God, yet never stopped believing, though they 'saw' them not.(they only 'saw' them through the eye of faith)

"These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, they were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth." Heb. 11:13


So in hindsight I should have been more clear in my words...what I was attempting to say was that they totally trusted God concerning the promises He made even though they couldn't always physically 'see' them. I believe they (as do those today who believe God and take Him at His Word) do 'see' the promises...that is another example of faith; believing without physically seeing.

I agree with Jman concerning labeling 'everything' taught by anyone who taught or agreed with any ideas of Kenyon's as false doctrine and that you can't accept ANY of it including what HEF taught; that's painting yourself into a corner and cheating yourself out of a LOT of Biblically sound and doctrinely correct teachings.

No one can force you to receive 'the faith message'...but how about the message of the cross? HEF taught that in The Deeper Life book, a book that has several 'messages'(though they all work only by 'faith'.) How about the message of deliverance? Nonresistance? Holiness? HEF taught all these 'messages', most laid out in the Deeper Life as well as on countless tapes. Chunk it all eh? Your loss brother...

btw: I'm almost certain there are those among us who daily pray for your spiritual well-being as well; I agree, EARS TO HEAR AND EYES TO SEE...AS WELL AS HUMBLE AND A TEACHABLE SPIRIT, may we all seek this in our lives.

Seeking to love even as I am loved, with the love wherein He first loved us...self giving and unconditionally, Thank You, Jesus.

[Updated on: Mon, 17 June 2013 10:38]


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith? [message #9562 is a reply to message #9561 ] Sun, 16 June 2013 06:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gary  is currently offline Gary
Messages: 870
Registered: August 2008
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Tom,

What do you think of this scripture?

Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

The problem I see is that if someone has not taken the time to master the Greek language how could they pull out one term from Strong's and try to make a case why something taught is wrong.

How can someone do a credible exegesis of a word without considering all the scriptures that pertain to faith that should be included.

If what your saying is true Tom you should be able to show a number of scriptures that prove what you are thinking is correct. To be honest to take one scripture and pull out one word and start denouncing a teaching seems to be very irrational.

Pulling one word from the Bible and trying to prove a point with another language can only lead one to the pathway of error in their thinking.

This is how many of the cults got their start, they picked out certain words in the Bible explaining them away and came up with their own imaginary thinking of what the scriptures said, which led to deception.

What I am trying to say here Tom, Is how can you take "one" tiny word and prove that the faith message is wrong? This is why your not able to answer any of the scriptures shared by others, thinking "silence" will prove your right.

Gary








Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith? [message #9567 is a reply to message #9562 ] Mon, 17 June 2013 23:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
GWB  is currently offline GWB
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Senior Member
Maybe it is just me, but this is getting so rediculously complicated.

Listen to the Holy Spirit and know that what you are believing for is in the Word and redemptive. Pray, ask, know that it is a matter of His timing, and stand until it comes to pass.

I could care less about debating translations. We have the God of the universe in us to tell us all of this in our daily walk and our communion with Him.

He told us to be like children, not like scribes and Pharisees.

Pick apart how you hear His voice. If Bibles become scarce, we won't have time for all of this endless debate.

What will you rely on then? Piles of ashes of burned Bibles, or the Living Word in your heart.

Time is short and I really believe that Bibles will not be around. Plenty of Korans, but not Bibles. JMHO


Shalom,

GWB

"Be still and know that I am God."
Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith? [message #9568 is a reply to message #9567 ] Tue, 18 June 2013 04:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gary  is currently offline Gary
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Gillyann,

The problem I see here is that once someone crosses over to the other side there is no longer the opportunity to get things settled. If this is true, then I would think everyone would want to examine what they believe in light of scripture.

The thought came to me the teaching about, "Its never to late till its to late".

When someone denies something in the Bible and tries to explain it away with one tiny word, while trying to use the Greek without considering other passages we find something is wrong in their perception.

Every jot and tittle is important in the Word of God as we all know. Were told not to take away or add to the Bible.

I think this is the main concern and that is to see a man head down the path of deception while he is telling other Christians they are deceived.

I can agree with Tom when I see people take the faith teaching and add their opinions to what the Bible says, for instance seed faith, etc. But to say the teaching is not in the Bible means that whole passages and chapters are just totally overlooked.

This view is very concerning here, I think if it is a debate it is very lopsided.

Gary





Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith? [message #9569 is a reply to message #9568 ] Tue, 18 June 2013 15:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mark L is currently online Mark L
Messages: 441
Registered: October 2006
Location: Canada
Senior Member
Tom you seem to be picking one aspect of faith and just running with it and putting walls up around it and saying this is the beginning and end of it.

I think a lot of that is a reaction to teaching from the wof (word of faith) people and Kenyon and responding to them rather than what was actually taught in the faith message.

A good eg of that is our words being creative. Hef never taught that. And (just making a point here) if he did he was wrong. Our words certainly have an impact on our life but they are not creative in the same way Gods are.

1 Thess 1/3 their faith "grew" exceedingly along with their love which enabled them vs 4 to endure the trials and persecution they were going through.

Rom 4 Abraham . . .
vs19 not weak
vs 20 was strong
vs 21 fully persuaded

He went from weak to strong and not fully persuaded to fully persuaded. There was a process.

1 John2/14 . . . strong and the word of God abides in you.

Also you didn't mention this but unbelief is a substance too.

* That is correct: I am setting the Biblical definition of the Greek word that Jesus used and meant, against the man-made, false definition of the word “faith” that E.W. Kenyon misunderstood/invented and taught to Kenneth Hagin, who taught it to Hobart Freeman, Kenneth Copeland, Et Al.

That is not a proper way to argue your point as Hef himself said publicly he disagreed with Kenyon. All of us are products of those who went before us. Good and bad. Kenyon included. You are taking too much of Kenyon and the wof people and applying it to the faith message.

Your comments on the mind and the heart. You are simply wrong. We are an indivisible whole. The heart is a deeper aspect of our consciousness (the mind) There is much scripture that bypasses the more shallow aspect of our consciousness (our minds) and speaks directly to the deeper part of our consciousness (the heart).

A good eg is Rom 8/ 28-39 It just speaks to the heart.
Also 11 Cor 6/17-18

Good christian music and worship comes out of or into that deeper aspect of us. Obviously there is an emotional component to that but it still doesn't completely describe it. Solomon had a lot to say about the issues of life and that deeper consciousness.


Here is the crux of the whole issue. Your words.

Man’s way teaches us to have “faith”/trust in OUR OWN “faith”.
The “faith” that WE PRODUCED BY OURSELVES, and built up into strong “faith” BY OURSELVES.


No one from Hef down to little me believes that.That is not the faith message in any way. Again you really don't understand the faith message or what was taught.
Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith? [message #9570 is a reply to message #9514 ] Wed, 19 June 2013 08:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
wishing34  is currently offline wishing34
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Senior Member
Hi Mark L.

You reminded me:
A good eg of that is our words being creative. Hef never taught that. And (just making a point here) if he did he was wrong.
Our words certainly have an impact on our life but they are not creative in the same way Gods are.



I agree.
-----------------

I cannot recall the exact nuance of how HEF taught this. I think he said believer's words are indeed creative, but I am not sure.
But the HEF "son in law" generation of teachers ( at least a few ) definitely taught
that the words of our mouths were creative. I specifically remember being against this teaching, so I am sure that it was taught.



Possibly, many readers of this forum still think this way.

Say "My child is slow," and it becomes true.
Say "I'm so fat," and you are fat.
Say "I'm healed," and you are healed . (see faith reference below in this post)
Say "I cannot read that," and years of faith is negated. (see faith reference below in this post)




--------------------------------
Actual example of how people thought - approx. 30 years ago.

The men were playing basketball. A boy fell on his own arm and snapped the two bones in the forearm.
He lifted up the 'bent in he wrong place' arm and, with a shocked face, said, "I just broke my arm."

A brother said, "Don't say that, or it will become true."
As if if the boy never verbalized it, then the arm were not broken.


The arm was already broken, and the boy's words would not change it nor cause it.
-------------------------------



The idea that our words are creative is a NEW AGE way of thinking. As if your words go out into the universe and
affect reality. In Christian theology it is not your words, the vibrations, nor your mental thoughts/powers that affects reality.

It is a much cleaner theology to say that the actual faith of a person is what matters ( it alone moves God into action ) and not their words.
Spontaneous positive/negative confessions merely reveal what faith (or lack thereof) is really present.





Jman




`*

---sig------------------------------------------------------ ------------

At the time of this post . . .

FA, the satellites, the spinoffs,and the FA diaspora have been having church
without apostles for 41 years and 170 days.
Initial start date 1/1/72


Recommended: No faith stands that strongly impact our (our children's) lives until we figure out
why the signs and wonders are missing. Something is wrong.









Re: What is The Biblical Meaning of the Word Faith? [message #9571 is a reply to message #9570 ] Wed, 19 June 2013 17:55 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Gary  is currently offline Gary
Messages: 870
Registered: August 2008
Location: Indiana
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I believe there is something to having a positive attitude in life, especially if you know the Lord. Having a negative outlook on life develops a negative attitude where there is no hope.

This is interesting. When we pray we have to believe God is going to work in our behalf for our prayers to be answered. Faith is that believing.

I think the teaching on creating manifestations came from the scripture, Command Ye Me concerning the works of my hands", many interpreted this to mean we could command God with faith and positive confessions, to receive an answer.

The way I understand faith is that you know, that you know, that God is going to do something from you believing that He will do it and you have total rest in your heart that it is going to happen.

I know many who trusted God for healing who were better Christians then me, had the right confession but they ended up dying. But this does not change the fact that healing is part of the atonement. Then on the other hand I have seen some step out in faith and find it works.

For me I am trying to take scriptures in their context and seeing what did Jesus say and what did He think is important for us as believers.

It takes faith to believe the Bible is the Word of God and that He means what He says. Otherwise its just hope. God has given every man the measure of faith. Faith has to grow. Its a learning process that everyone has to work out themselves before the Lord.

But I agree just saying positive words so other people will hear them does not mean its just going to happen.

Gary


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