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Heaven or hell? [message #8740] Sun, 08 January 2012 15:05 Go to next message
wishing34  is currently offline wishing34
Messages: 212
Registered: March 2009
Senior Member

Consider a hypothetical brother named Zeke. He is a true believer and is a normal
member of the local assembly. He has his good points and bad points, his strengths
and his weaknesses.

He is in a covenant relationship with God. His sins were imputed to Jesus on the cross
and Jesus died for those sins. The righteousness of Jesus is imputed to Zeke.


Does Zeke go to heaven are hell in the following examples?




1) Zeke prays but is unable to cause
signs and wonders or greater works to happen in his life or church.

Then a sudden tragedy happens and Zeke dies.
Does he go to heaven, to hell, or we cannot be sure?




2) Zeke is believing God for protection as in Psalm 91. He is in a convention center
and is going down a dark hallway with his wife and children. There are ruffians around
and Zeke goes to a courtesy phone and asks for a security guard to come to this area of
the building. So Zeke knew better than to use the arm of the flesh for protection but
in the heat of the moment he compromised.

Then a sudden tragedy happens and Zeke dies.
Does he go to heaven, to hell, or we cannot be sure?




3) Zeke is on a public street and persecutors come along and kill his wife and children.
In a surge of anger he kills one of the villains.

Before he can repent he dies.
Does he go to heaven, to hell, or we cannot be sure?




------------------

I have been hearing some tapes that I believe are heard by others who are of
the FA diaspora – people who might be interested in this forum.
I am hearing ambiguity relating to the theology of the above questions.
Clarity in this area might give people some peace of mind and freedom from condemnation.






Jman




____________________
At the time of this post . . .
FA, the satellites, the spinoffs,and the FA diaspora have been having church
without apostles for 40 years and 8 days.
Initial start date 1/1/72










Re: Heaven or hell? [message #8741 is a reply to message #8740 ] Sun, 08 January 2012 19:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mark  is currently offline Mark
Messages: 37
Registered: November 2011
Location: Canada
Member
I think in all your situations the Zeke goes to heaven. The bottom line is there is a line you can't cross in compromising or sinning. But it doesn't happen by accident or by missing it in a faith situation or blowing it somehow. No one crossed that line in a hurry or accidently. That happens by a long time of carelessly walking away from the Lord.

Same with the unpardonable sin. No one does it by accident. Or even by one sin however bad it is. The proof that one hasn't commited the unpardonable sin is that they still care. 1John 1/9 still applies.

For someone to go too far in walking away from the Lord or commiting the unpardonable sin the proof would be they simply don't care anymore.

Condemnation is always the devil and never God.


I find I always have to write something on a steamed mirror....
Re: Heaven or hell? [message #8742 is a reply to message #8740 ] Sun, 08 January 2012 20:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
wishing34  is currently offline wishing34
Messages: 212
Registered: March 2009
Senior Member
Hi Mark,

Wow. You said it good.
You should have been on the tape I heard instead of the other guy.









Jman




____________________
At the time of this post . . .
FA, the satellites, the spinoffs,and the FA diaspora have been having church
without apostles for 40 years and 8 days.
Initial start date 1/1/72














Re: Heaven or hell? [message #8758 is a reply to message #8740 ] Mon, 16 January 2012 17:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
Messages: 1188
Registered: January 2006
Senior Member
Administrator
I agree with Mark, one doesn't move in and out of salvation each time he/she makes a mistake or sins.

I'd be interested in hearing whatever message/teaching you referred to in your note, especially if it came from someone in our circles.

Blessings,
William


I want to believe!
Re: Heaven or hell? [message #8759 is a reply to message #8740 ] Mon, 16 January 2012 18:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
wishing34  is currently offline wishing34
Messages: 212
Registered: March 2009
Senior Member
Hi William,

On my number one example the minister said how believing for the greater works
uses the same faith that we use to believe for salvation so if you are unable
to believe in the greater works then he said something to the effect of “I cannot be sure
that sure even saved”

I did not make a note of which MP3 that that was on.

-----------------

On my number two example the minister used a faith failure with respect to
going to the hospital for healing. I changed it to a faith failure with respect
to believing for protection because we had such controversy with respect to
faith healing and medical science in our other discussion last fall. I did not
want to re-open that conversation about medical science/faith for healing.


Here is the home page of this website
http://kcusers.com/faithassembly/index.html
the MP3 is from the year 2002


Here is the MP3 in question
021113W: November 13 – 46. Submission to Authority
http://www.mediafire.com/?a9iona4dacbkd7b
you can download this with a right click/save
it is an MP3 file.

Between 5:30 and 6:30 seconds on the MP3 the minister deals with the question of
going to the arm of the flesh for healing. He barely stopped short of saying that
if a person goes to the arm of the flesh they are not even saved.

There seems to be no consideration for if a believer is overwhelmed by deadly
circumstances.

The minister continues on for a couple more minutes regarding medical science
and he does say that it is occult – to validate that he says you should go hear about
16 million tapes that are out there, using a condescending attitude. Hopefully
condescending attitudes no longer influence us.

--------------

My number three example I totally created myself in order to have example
of unrepentant murder when a Christian dies – to emphasize the point that
we are in a covenant because of faith and not works.







Jman




____________________
At the time of this post . . .
FA, the satellites, the spinoffs,and the FA diaspora have been having church
without apostles for 40 years and 16 days.
Initial start date 1/1/72













Re: Heaven or hell? [message #8760 is a reply to message #8759 ] Mon, 16 January 2012 19:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
Messages: 1188
Registered: January 2006
Senior Member
Administrator
Thanks Jman,

I was on the right track, but it would have taken me a looong time to find it... I started looking for it in this years offerings!

I can only speak for myself but back in the day I certainly had much more of a 'works-based-mentality' than I do now. I'm not sure I can blame it on a specific teaching but it certainly took a lot of joy out of serving God.

Blessings,
William


I want to believe!
Re: Heaven or hell? [message #8761 is a reply to message #8740 ] Tue, 17 January 2012 00:10 Go to previous message
wishing34  is currently offline wishing34
Messages: 212
Registered: March 2009
Senior Member
William,

I found the link regarding the number one example above.
At least this is part of the reference to it.
Here is the link

050316W: March 16 – Where Has All the Power Gone? (2005)
http://www.mediafire.com/?x6dg0a0p6z7zzl8
right click/save

At the 40:15 to 42:00 seconds mark on the MP3 the minister indicates
that unbelief that would hinder the power of God is the same unbelief
that would keep a person out of the kingdom.

I thought he was talking about the signs and wonders such as would be expected
in the ministry of an apostle. But upon hearing it again possibly he is referring
to the power of God in terms of supernatural answers to everyday prayer.

Either way he indicates that a believer might not be in the kingdom if he or she
cannot cause supernatural events through prayer. - I disagree with this theory.

There might be a further reference to the quotation that I had above
but I do not know where to find it





Jman




____________________
At the time of this post . . .
FA, the satellites, the spinoffs,and the FA diaspora have been having church
without apostles for 40 years and 17 days.
Initial start date 1/1/72









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