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Christian Theology and Medical Science [message #8587] Sat, 05 November 2011 01:12 Go to next message
william  is currently offline william
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In the medical science thread, the issue of how science relates to Christian theology came up, and as I was reading over some of the other threads, I ran across one that jman started that concerned UFOs, and how new discoveries might affect our theology.

How do we view 'true' science? (By true science, I mean the valid pursuit of facts.) Does science have a role in Christianity? Both of those threads raise this question.

In the medical science thread, one of the central issues revolved around whether or not a field (like the medical field) could move out of the realm of the esoteric and establish its credentials using facts that are well established in our physical world. It was asked, "Can a leopard change its spots?" Of course, the answer is no, if we are talking about a leopard's spots, but can this saying be universally applied to any and every pursuit without discrimination?

Let me give a silly example that might help to convey what I'm talking about.

Back when I was growing up, there were advertisements in some of the popular magazines (mostly comic books <grin>), that sold X-ray glasses. Now I wanted a pair so bad I could taste it. The advertised purpose was to allow the user the ability to see through a person's clothing. Yes, I was once a young teenager that immediately could see the advantages of having a pair, if you know what I mean.<grin>

Obviously, this was a pipe dream. (At least I think it was, wasn't it? -- I never could afford a pair.)

Okay, probably those glasses were fictional, but just for the sake of analogy, let's say there was such an invention.

There is no doubt that those glasses would have been labeled as an evil tool of the devil almost from the beginning. Christian ministers everywhere would have condemned them as evil, and anyone who purchased a pair would have been labeled as a pervert.

But think about this fictional pair of 'pervert glasses' for a moment... would they have remained in the realm of evil when used for purposes that didn't fall into the stereotypical 'original' purpose? Maybe they could be used to examine the luggage of a frequent-flier in order to find a bomb threat, or something that would be considered good for the well-being of others. At this point wouldn't the same invention represent both good and bad? (Similarly the TV, or the internet might be considered in this category, right?) Instead of being just a tool for deviant purposes, now something worthwhile could result from the invention. Would we as Christians recognize that there might be a legitimate use for these things, or would we continue to view them only as the tools of Satan?

It seems to me that it is the user's heart that is the arbiter in determining whether or not something inanimate is bad or good.

It has been said that "all drugs have side-effects" and I'm not prepared to argue otherwise simply because I'm ignorant in that realm, so take the following with the knowledge that I'm open for correction if shown to be in error. (Btw, I'm only using the drug example because it is fresh in my mind, and the controversy is one that highlights the issue of scientific advancement and its relation to Christian theology.)

Take the polio epidemic of the last century. This was an epidemic of epic proportions affecting hundreds of thousands of people. Around the middle of the last century, scientific advancements (I don't think that this was a magical/occult feat) progressed to the point where this disease was stopped in its tracks. As far as I know, there has never been anything that could 'cure' polio, but that doesn't change the fact that the disease was rendered impotent by medical science.

I think that this was a good thing, at least as far as most of humanity was concerned, and while believers have always had the prayer of faith as our remedy, the vaccine has helped untold multitudes avoid that debilitating and oftentimes fatal disease. Was this vaccine the occult powers of Satan at work, or was it mankind's best effort at utilizing knowledge for the benefit of the rest of humanity?

If we attribute this to the occult, then where do we draw the line? If it was occult, does this mean that all scientific medical knowledge is occult? Much of the nutritional information that we utilize came about as a result of men working in this field.

I sometimes wonder how many in our circles could have been the beneficiaries of nutritional supplements if this line had been drawn differently. I'm not knowledgeable in this field, but I don't believe that all vitamins are simply a puree of ground up broccoli and carrots. Anyway, even if it is simply ground up food-stock, how is it that it is okay to add iron to it, and not other chemicals known to be beneficial? And why is this not considered breaching the promise of healing that is provided in the atonement?

This isn't a 'point' that I'm trying to prove. I'm genuinely seeking answers to these questions.

What is the proper relationship that Christians should have with science that has come from the medical field?


Blessings,
William


I want to believe!
Re: Christian Theology and Medical Science [message #8588 is a reply to message #8587 ] Sat, 05 November 2011 08:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
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"I'm genuinely seeking answers to these questions."

I believe you William.

I was thinking about your thoughts and questions while preparing breakfast, and the statement about "the users heart"... determining if something inanimate is good or bad, had me talking to The Lord about 'my' heart. I was thinking about the pat answer we so often give, "Lord, you know my heart" or "The Lord knows my heart"; what I think He was helping me to see was, Yes, He does know our hearts...far better than we do ourselves. Sometimes we make those statements to justify ourselves, but He isn't viewing us through 'rose-colored glasses', as we tend to do.

I recently read something someone wrote trying to explain their understanding of their own reasoning. They said by writing down their thoughts and convictions, questions and uncertainties, it helped them in solidifying what they actually did believe. It's like by writing down something you profess to believe you have the opportunity to see it there in black and white and it's no longer just thoughts. Easier to see flaws and cracks should they exist.

Inconsistency is to stability as wave action is to a weakened seawall, it erodes and with time it breaks down. May God grant us grace and mercy as we seek to cling fast to that which is righteous and godly and cast aside all inconsistencies that would hinder our growth and walk with Jesus.

[Updated on: Sat, 05 November 2011 10:36]


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: Christian Theology and Medical Science [message #8589 is a reply to message #8587 ] Sat, 05 November 2011 09:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
wishing34  is currently offline wishing34
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Hi Moulder,

you wrote
>>>>>How do we view 'true' science?
and
>>>>>>What is the proper relationship that Christians should have with science that has come from the medical field?



As I think I see what you are saying-
I see two possible branches that you might go down here.
I think you are aiming for branch two?


1) What is the proper relationship that Christians should have with the APPLIED SCIENCE that has come from the medical field?

drugs
machines
procedures
treatments

basically using med science as actually applied to healing

Applied med science will relate/compete with Divine healing.


or


2) What is the proper relationship that Christians should have with SCIENCE KNOWLEDGE that has come from the medical field?

Nutrition
sports training techniques
fitness info
aging info vs expected body performance
body mechanics – ex shape a better keyboard to avoid carpo-tunnel
protective gear technology – sunglasses, hi-tech football helmets
preventative health issues – should floss teeth, use good posture, elderly → use it or loose it
artist info w/r human body rendering
detailed knowledge w/r body is fearfully and wonderfully made (sermon material)






-----------


Would not the issue become how does the believer relate to scientific facts? Medical related facts or otherwise?
Does it matter who first discovered/used a fact?
Can a fact be permanently evil or "occult" ?
Is it even possible that a true fact could contradict Christianity or the Bible?
Is discovering new facts a threat to Christianity?
Does knowing/learning facts contradict/oppose walking the faith walk?









Jman







Re: Christian Theology and Medical Science [message #8590 is a reply to message #8588 ] Sat, 05 November 2011 10:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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Quote:

I was thinking about your thoughts and questions while preparing breakfast, and the statement about "the users heart"... determining if something inanimate is good or bad, had me talking to The Lord about 'my' heart. I was thinking about the pat answer we so often give, "Lord, you know my heart" or "The Lord knows my heart"; what I think He was helping me to see was, Yes, He does know our hearts...far better than we do ourselves. Sometimes we make those statements to justify ourselves, but He isn't viewing us through 'rose-colored glasses', as we tend to do.


In the first draft, I only used "users" but later added "heart" to clarify that our motives do play a part, but don't misunderstand my meaning because of my insertion of the word "heart" here. I don't mean that it is our motives that determine whether or not something is evil or not in this discussion, that's too subjective -- our actions speak directly to that, much better than our attitude of the heart.

An example would be how a user uses a vacuum cleaner. One user might use it to vacuum the dust off of the floor, another might use it in an abortion procedure. Now the motivation of the "heart" is present in both situations, but the distinction is not a -- "Lord, you know my heart" -- kind of distinction.

In other words, your "heart" may play a part in how you justify yourself, but it has no bearing on justifying the abortion procedure. (Vacuuming your floor would not need to be justified in either case.)

To use my x-ray vision example, a person might use the same pair of glasses for a lustful purpose and later the same day use them for good. Usage determines whether or not the action was sinful -- not the person's heart. Maybe I should have left that word out!

The broad principle of how Christianity interacts with science is the focal point.

50 years ago, a Christian confronted with a dinosaur's bone might have rejected it as outright fraud, especially since many of those discoveries were made by evil scientists bent on proving evolution. The theology at that time was not fundamentally sound enough to deal with a situation like the existence of dinosaurs, so Christians everywhere rejected the idea that dinosaurs ever existed. Finally, we wiped the egg off of our faces, and now have a place for the existence of dinosaurs in our thinking.

Sure, one might say that the motivation of the heart of a dinosaur rejector was to defend his faith, and that might provide somewhat of a justification in his own mind, but it would in no way justify him for being WRONG.

Now I know that there are some Christians who still refuse to believe in the existence of dinosaurs, but let's face it, they are not going to be very useful as a conduit to represent God to a dying world.

The dinosaur fiasco might have been avoided if some of the belief systems in place at the time had been *logically* and *reasonably* examined.

Hopefully in another 100 years we will be enjoying the wonders of a restored paradise, but if we are not, will we be the discredited dinosaur-rejectors of the 21st century?

Blessings,
William


I want to believe!
Re: Christian Theology and Medical Science [message #8591 is a reply to message #8589 ] Sat, 05 November 2011 13:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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Quote:

As I think I see what you are saying-
I see two possible branches that you might go down here.
I think you are aiming for branch two?


1) What is the proper relationship that Christians should have with the APPLIED SCIENCE that has come from the medical field?

drugs
machines
procedures
treatments

basically using med science as actually applied to healing

Applied med science will relate/compete with Divine healing.


or


2) What is the proper relationship that Christians should have with SCIENCE KNOWLEDGE that has come from the medical field?

Nutrition
sports training techniques
fitness info
aging info vs expected body performance
body mechanics – ex shape a better keyboard to avoid carpo-tunnel
protective gear technology – sunglasses, hi-tech football helmets
preventative health issues – should floss teeth, use good posture, elderly → use it or loose it
artist info w/r human body rendering
detailed knowledge w/r body is fearfully and wonderfully made (sermon material)



Well, both of the streams you mentioned are connected, but at least, at this time, it is the second stream that seems to have already been assimilated into our thinking --at least to varying degrees, i.e. vitamins/nutrition.

Think about another analogy (I know, I know, we've got way too many analogies already and I'm not sure it has helped anyone, but it has been useful in helping me to narrow this down...), the analogy of the Amish. Somewhere in their history someone pronounced electricity as being evil, maybe even calling it occult. Everyone who remained in the Amish tradition accepted that pronouncement. It must have been rejected by some, but those that rejected that pronouncement were no longer considered a part of the Amish Faith.

There were probably some good reasons for adopting this Amish view at the time, maybe it was seen to be too closely related to worldly wisdom/knowledge, or for some other reason, but they took that position, for better or worse.

Fast forward and now you've got major inconsistencies in the way they practice their Faith. (Capitalizing Faith here to distinguish between believing God for something and the concept of Faith standing for their whole religion -- I mean the latter.)

They don't see any problems with using DC (direct current) in some situations, even though DC is just a method where half of the electrical sine wave is isolated to form the positive side, and the other half is separated to form the negative force. It's all electricity, and if you use DC current, you may as well use AC (alternating) current -- there is no reason not to beyond that once-adopted-pronouncement that has forced them into this contradictory position.

In my mind, I see us doing the same thing when we opt to accept the part of medical science that has given us discoveries in the nutritional sciences, and reject the same sort of thinking when it comes to things like the polio vaccine.

I'm not saying that the reasons for this inquiry is so that I now can partake of the wonders of medical science with a clear conscience, I'm seeking to make sure that our theological positions don't go the way of the dinosaur (or the Amish religion).

The arm of the flesh is still the arm of the flesh, and trusting in the arm of the flesh will limit one to the arm of the flesh. (It is better to trust in the LORD!)

If medical science and the knowledge that comes from that field is occult, then we'd better rethink whether or not it is acceptable to use *any* of the knowledge that came through the supposed demonic realm, at least if we are going to be consistent.

Dittos for the whole realm of Chemistry/Astronomy etc., as you (jman) have pointed out in the other thread.

Quote:





-----------

Would not the issue become how does the believer relate to scientific facts? Medical related facts or otherwise?
Does it matter who first discovered/used a fact?
Can a fact be permanently evil or "occult" ?
Is it even possible that a true fact could contradict Christianity or the Bible?
Is discovering new facts a threat to Christianity?
Does knowing/learning facts contradict/oppose walking the faith walk?

Jman




I don't take facts as ever contradicting Christianity, at all. Neither do I see facts as being a threat to Christianity... it may threaten some of our notions, but that should only help us to make sure our theology is fact-based, and not based upon faulty logic or reasoning.

Blessings,
William


I want to believe!
Re: Christian Theology and Medical Science [message #8592 is a reply to message #8587 ] Sat, 05 November 2011 14:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
wishing34  is currently offline wishing34
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Hi Moulder,

I am not understanding so I might be steering off topic a little here.

you wrote
>>>>> If medical science and the knowledge that comes from that field is occult then we'd better rethink whether or not it is acceptable to use *any* of the knowledge that came through the supposed demonic realm, at least if we are going to be consistent.




Is there an official definition w/r occult involvement?
A HEF definition that is universally accepted?


Seems an exact definition of occult involvement would automatically clarify the
boundaries of how to interact with occult related things/practitioners/acquired facts.


Example.
Ancient astrologers (occult practitioners) first identified the North Star
(that it is always in the northerly direction)
Is it occult involvement to use this piece of their ancient “wisdom” to navigate in the woods today?






If we vary widely w/r the definition of the occult and its consequences (what opens a door
and what does not open a door) then we will vary widely as to how we interact with the world.







Jman







Re: Christian Theology and Medical Science [message #8593 is a reply to message #8592 ] Sat, 05 November 2011 15:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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Check your private messages, jman.

Blessings,
William


I want to believe!
Re: Christian Theology and Medical Science [message #8594 is a reply to message #8587 ] Sat, 05 November 2011 17:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
wishing34  is currently offline wishing34
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Hi Moulder,


Thank you for the recording of HEF OT Theology
that references various occult topics including
pharmakeia. Much appreciated. It updates me on
exactly what he said.

I do not see how that moved the ball forward here.



Jman



Re: Christian Theology and Medical Science [message #8595 is a reply to message #8594 ] Sun, 06 November 2011 17:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
GWB  is currently offline GWB
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I have just, again, read a book my mom kept around the house as we were growing up called The Bible and Modern Science by Henry M. Morris.

It is a very old book and it has always embraced science and the Bible in that it strengthens faith in Jesus. Unveiling the wonderous ways God works in His creation is awesome.

It confirms verses about astronomy, creation, weather patterns, gravity, scientific, medical and civil laws. Jesus knew all of these scientific principals because he created them.

I am also thankful for Jesus giving us brilliant Christian and Jewish minds to help us understand his creation even more so by using them to unfold His marvelous works.

It has recently been discovered that the DNA pattern within the human cell matches the patterns of the stars (the way the stars were hung in the sky) within the universe. What a mighty God we serve!

I was able to visit the Creation Museum in Cinn., Ohio. They have a show on the stars and universe which was created by a Christian astronomer. It blew my grown kids away. They have very high I.Q.'s (all glory to Jesus) and question everything....thank God!

They love Jesus and are hungry for things about His creation and how it operates in scientific terms, not superstitious babbling.

In taking med courses, I walked away praising Jesus about how much we truely are fearfully and wonderfully made.

I know, in my......heart......that all of this information can be used to glorify Him or for evil purposes.

I also know, in my......heart.....that I am so glad I can drive heading west, and I understand that I will not fall off of the earth without needing deliverance for knowing that concept. Shocked Rolling Eyes

At one time, literally, people were burned at the stake for suggesting this fact. Thank God we are not in the Middle Ages, or are we?

I am thankful for all of the imput on OO and for this discussion. It has made me think about many things and why I believe what I do.

I also am thankful in my......heart.....that He is restoring me to Him day by day without condemnation.

I can't imagine a world without science helping me to understand His glorious works even more so.

His powers are mighty to behold...... Smile


Shalom,

GWB

"Be still and know that I am God."
Re: Christian Theology and Medical Science [message #8619 is a reply to message #8587 ] Mon, 21 November 2011 17:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
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William wrote:

In the medical science thread, the issue of how science relates to Christian theology came up, and as I was reading over some of the other threads, I ran across one that jman started that concerned UFOs, and how new discoveries might affect our theology.

How do we view 'true' science? (By true science, I mean the valid pursuit of facts.) Does science have a role in Christianity? Both of those threads raise this question.

In the medical science thread, one of the central issues revolved around whether or not a field (like the medical field) could move out of the realm of the esoteric and establish its credentials using facts that are well established in our physical world. It was asked, "Can a leopard change its spots?" Of course, the answer is no, if we are talking about a leopard's spots, but can this saying be universally applied to any and every pursuit without discrimination?

Let me give a silly example that might help to convey what I'm talking about.

Back when I was growing up, there were advertisements in some of the popular magazines (mostly comic books <grin>), that sold X-ray glasses. Now I wanted a pair so bad I could taste it. The advertised purpose was to allow the user the ability to see through a person's clothing. Yes, I was once a young teenager that immediately could see the advantages of having a pair, if you know what I mean.<grin>

Obviously, this was a pipe dream. (At least I think it was, wasn't it? -- I never could afford a pair.)

Okay, probably those glasses were fictional, but just for the sake of analogy, let's say there was such an invention.

There is no doubt that those glasses would have been labeled as an evil tool of the devil almost from the beginning. Christian ministers everywhere would have condemned them as evil, and anyone who purchased a pair would have been labeled as a pervert.

But think about this fictional pair of 'pervert glasses' for a moment... would they have remained in the realm of evil when used for purposes that didn't fall into the stereotypical 'original' purpose? Maybe they could be used to examine the luggage of a frequent-flier in order to find a bomb threat, or something that would be considered good for the well-being of others. At this point wouldn't the same invention represent both good and bad? (Similarly the TV, or the internet might be considered in this category, right?) Instead of being just a tool for deviant purposes, now something worthwhile could result from the invention. Would we as Christians recognize that there might be a legitimate use for these things, or would we continue to view them only as the tools of Satan?

It seems to me that it is the user's heart that is the arbiter in determining whether or not something inanimate is bad or good.

It has been said that "all drugs have side-effects" and I'm not prepared to argue otherwise simply because I'm ignorant in that realm, so take the following with the knowledge that I'm open for correction if shown to be in error. (Btw, I'm only using the drug example because it is fresh in my mind, and the controversy is one that highlights the issue of scientific advancement and its relation to Christian theology.)

Take the polio epidemic of the last century. This was an epidemic of epic proportions affecting hundreds of thousands of people. Around the middle of the last century, scientific advancements (I don't think that this was a magical/occult feat) progressed to the point where this disease was stopped in its tracks. As far as I know, there has never been anything that could 'cure' polio, but that doesn't change the fact that the disease was rendered impotent by medical science.

I think that this was a good thing, at least as far as most of humanity was concerned, and while believers have always had the prayer of faith as our remedy, the vaccine has helped untold multitudes avoid that debilitating and oftentimes fatal disease. Was this vaccine the occult powers of Satan at work, or was it mankind's best effort at utilizing knowledge for the benefit of the rest of humanity?

If we attribute this to the occult, then where do we draw the line? If it was occult, does this mean that all scientific medical knowledge is occult? Much of the nutritional information that we utilize came about as a result of men working in this field.

Quote:

I sometimes wonder how many in our circles could have been the beneficiaries of nutritional supplements if this line had been drawn differently. I'm not knowledgeable in this field, but I don't believe that all vitamins are simply a puree of ground up broccoli and carrots. Anyway, even if it is simply ground up food-stock, how is it that it is okay to add iron to it, and not other chemicals known to be beneficial? And why is this not considered breaching the promise of healing that is provided in the atonement?


This isn't a 'point' that I'm trying to prove. I'm genuinely seeking answers to these questions.

What is the proper relationship that Christians should have with science that has come from the medical field?



james replies:


I've been seeking The Lord about anything in my life that is inconsistent or any 'blind spots' I may have. I gather from a couple of statements no one at FA (or any other members of the forum besides me) took any type food supplement. OK, I'm more than willing to stop(since I didn't take any for the first 55 years of my life, it'd certainly no problem to stop taking them) but before I go any farther can anyone show the difference between foods that have had vitamins added being OK, verus taking them in tablet form? Now if no one eats cereal, juices, ect. and I'm just assuming ya'll do, please let me know that as well.

See, I didn't 'do' vitamins either for all those years, BUT, in another time of self-examination of what and why I believed what I did, it became very obvious (to me) that supplementing our foods to get proper nutrition was in no way an attempt to be healed. I don't take vitamins to be healed(I pray for healing), I take vitamins after realizing that I wasn't getting the same nutrition from foods living in the city as I was living in the country and having my own garden with fresh whole foods. Nothing to do with replacing Jesus as my healer, just making sure I was getting proper nutrition. If I in any way thought a vitamin was the same as taking a Zanex or Valium(which would be taken to bring healing<usually from anxiety and panic attacks or as an anti-depresant> I would have never taken the first one. But back to inconsistencies, if folks at FA and here, eat cereal and and all the multitude of other foods that have been fortified with vitamins...please explain the difference. Remember, it's the heart motive; like I believe concerning physical exercise, exercising isn't usurping Jesus as my healer and source of health and what He did at Calvary, is it? Of course not.

I am open to anyone who wants to show me differently, and I will receive your input with a humble and teachable heart. I've not came this far(however far this is<grin>) to be beset by something as easily discarded as this would be.

And not to open a can of worms but if the general consensus is now that drugs/medicine/doctors are not in any way related to the occult and doesn't open doors to the occult, why in the world would someone who's been believing for 30 plus years for healing of a disease or sickness not go ahead and take the drugs(it seems obivious that faith might have been lacking for the healing after that lenght of time) and just ask The Lord for forgiveness for a lack of faith?(just like asking forgiveness for that angry thought or lack of patience when dealing with others). I have a couple of things in my body(maybe even in my mind) that I've have waited for the manifestation for for over 30 years...what to do? Hummm. How about dental work? Let the guy pull and replace the damaged ones, or hold out for Jesus to work a creative miracle(I've NEVER seen anyone with new teeth, a new arm or leg, that Jesus made where there were none.)

I have no desire to compromise trusting Jesus for healing,(I still think it was purchased with a mighty high price) but if I've followed a doctrine or misinterpreted scriptures all these years and it's really not that big a deal...then I'd at least re-examine those convictions.

[Updated on: Thu, 25 July 2013 07:16]


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: Christian Theology and Medical Science [message #8620 is a reply to message #8619 ] Mon, 21 November 2011 19:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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James,

Don't take anything I've said to mean that I think you should give up your vitamins, that isn't the point at all. The point is: that in taking vitamins you are making a discrimination between the good stuff that has been derived from the field of medical science and the bad.

Doing that isn't consistent with the teaching that ALL medical science is occult.

I've used that example ONLY to show that by your actions you have taken a position that you do not believe that ALL medical science is occult. We are in perfect agreement (as far as I can tell) on this issue, if that is the case.

It seemed to me that you were saying, in earlier posts, that you had this issue settled 30+ years ago and to my mind that meant that you were saying the field was not redeemable and that it was, and is today, occult.

If the same position that we now seem to be in agreement on had been taken 30+ years ago then there is the possibility (I'm not sovereign, so I don't KNOW) that some might have avoided the dire consequences of poor nutrition, especially the health of expectant mothers, if vitamins had not been deemed occult.

Now if 1) those kinds of things were not occult, and, 2) those supplements are not a lack of faith... then why would anyone have a problem with modifying the ALL-medical-science-is-occult doctrine to reflect this?

I believe that everyone here has stated that *some* of medical science has been, and remains to this day, occultic... the question being reviewed is simply: Is all of it occult? (Which is what we were taught.)

To stay with a doctrine that has serious flaws just because someone we love and respect at one time pronounced it to be so shows the same unteachable attitude that we find in the dinosaur-denier, electricity-is-evil types.

The only other consideration, that I can think of, is whether or not certain of these things are to be considered a lack of faith.

By putting this issue back into the realm of how a person chooses to act their faith -- where it should be, imo -- we avoid a whole slew of problems some of which were brought up in the other thread.

As already stated, no one is excusing a lack of faith or minimizing the importance of having faith in Jesus for all of our needs, but surely you can see that dealing with someone's lack of faith is a whole lot easier than dealing with someone who believes that they have "left the faith" because they have directly turned away from God and embraced the satanic.

Blessings,
William


I want to believe!
Re: Christian Theology and Medical Science [message #8621 is a reply to message #8620 ] Mon, 21 November 2011 21:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
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In the context of how I understood what Jman was saying over in the other thread, I still believe that going to medical science for 'healing ' is wrong, but I don't disagree with the position that science and Christianity are not always at odds and that certainly we all participate in the benefits from scientific discoveries daily.


Jman wrote:

"I gather it is still taught that to go for medical help is to go to the occult, to go to the devil for your healing."

james replied:

"If it isn't it should be."


I should have put more thought into my answer or went into greater detail, I can see circumstances where medical help from a fellow man wouldn't be an open door to the occult, so there has to be exceptions. e.g. we are out cutting firewood and the chainsaw kicks back and cuts me severely, I wouldn't have any problem with you tying a tourniquet around my bleeding leg.(hey, I coulda let you be the one cut...lol)and there are plenty of other examples of just common sense type help that wouldn't have any connection to the occult.

I'm not the kind of guy who is afraid of putting myself 'out on a limb' concerning sharing my convictions, even when I may appear to be out there alone. I answered and shared about vitamins openly and honestly(as is my hearts desire concerning anything) sensing in my spirit that not everyone would view my position in a positive light or may attempt to use it to prove a point. But since I had already thought it through before I started taking them 5 years ago, I was convinced that vitamins as a nutritional supplement were not the same as drugs/medicines sought for healing, totally separate. But maybe in discussing it someone else comes to see the inconsistency of eating foods fortified with vitamin supplements while declaring taking 'vitamins' was a lack of faith in Jesus to heal our bodies.


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: Christian Theology and Medical Science [message #8622 is a reply to message #8621 ] Mon, 21 November 2011 22:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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Quote:

e.g. we are out cutting firewood and the chainsaw kicks back and cuts me severely, I wouldn't have any problem with you tying a tourniquet around my bleeding leg.(hey, I coulda let you be the one cut...lol)and there are plenty of other examples of just common sense type help that wouldn't have any connection to the occult.


I would be glad to help... as long as you wouldn't question my judgment if I determined that we needed to lop it off (I'm pretty handy with a hatchet) and of course I'd need you to sign something relieving me of all responsibility if it didn't work out. <grin> I can almost hear some preacher using me as a sermon illustration: "Yes, he might have made it if that idiot hadn't cut off the wrong leg!"


Blessings,
William


I want to believe!
Re: Christian Theology and Medical Science [message #8626 is a reply to message #8622 ] Tue, 22 November 2011 20:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
GWB  is currently offline GWB
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Laughing Laughing Laughing


Shalom,

GWB

"Be still and know that I am God."
Re: Christian Theology and Medical Science [message #8630 is a reply to message #8626 ] Wed, 23 November 2011 18:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mark L  is currently offline Mark L
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So James Do you feel the vitamins have been good for you? do you feel a difference? With my eating habits on the road and the way food is made today I have thinking for some time about taking a multivitamin every day. My wife has cupboard full of vitamins she takes.
Re: Christian Theology and Medical Science [message #8631 is a reply to message #8630 ] Wed, 23 November 2011 19:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
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Hey Mark,


Thanks for asking, I can't say I can tell any difference one way or the other, which to me is a good thing. I've always been energetic, so my motive wasn't anything except what I've stated, which was a nutritional supplement. Like you said, most 'fast foods' as well as most processed foods are depleted of many nutrients due to the way they're prepared and the time it takes to get them from the 'field' to the table.

The more I examine myself for inconsistencies, the more I find...imagine that? Rolling Eyes I have no idea whether or not broccoli is really loaded with vitamin C or not, or if salmon supplies us with omega 3. Science/scientist/nutritionist/doctors(?) say this, and obviously I believe them...Furthermore, I don't even know if B12 or vitamin E ect. are present in whatever veggies and fruit that 'they' say they're in...or if they're important in our bodies, but I've chosen by my actions to believe this to be true.

Do I allow for the possibility for 'the experts' to determine at some future date that that which they endorse today may be harmful. .eg. bacon...salt...wine ect. every five years there seems to be a 'study' showing certain things to be harmful that we thought to be good for us, and vice versa.

So anyway, after thinking it through I decided to start taking them, but not in the doses they recommend (smaller is better imo) or as often as it says on the bottle.

I know you don't need this advice, but for others possibly reading, whatever you do, do in faith. I don't rely on supplements or exercise for my source of healing or health, that's Jesus alone, but my motive is strictly as a nutritional supplement.


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: Christian Theology and Medical Science [message #8632 is a reply to message #8631 ] Wed, 23 November 2011 20:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mark L  is currently offline Mark L
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Yes I don't see anything wrong with making sure one gets proper nutrition. I quit my job last week. I'm off the highway now. I start a new local job this week so I can eat at home and start eating properly again. Sometimes (actually most of the time) its just too much trouble to stop and try to get good food on the highway. At least for me. I think I'm going to take a multivitamin as well.
Re: Christian Theology and Medical Science [message #8633 is a reply to message #8632 ] Thu, 24 November 2011 04:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
GWB  is currently offline GWB
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Long life cocktail = 1 Tbs each of real apple cider vinegar and flax seed oil in real, undiluted cranberry juice; about a cup. You can put stevia or truvia in it for taste. 1 Tbs of Orange flavored unsweetened metamucil, or it's equiv. Movefree from walmart won't let your joints complain.

Also, the Fat Flush Plan is awesome as a lifestyle. Yes, I fall off of the wagon, but it is easy to start again.

It includes 20 minutes of exercise a day....walking. There are easy shake recipes and simple meal plans. Most importantly, you are never hungry.

I got so discouraged at one point, I asked Jesus to help me. That day a family member showed up at my door sharing about this plan.

It works for me. I went to half.com and got five books for cooking, and shopping for this plan all for under twenty dollars!

Just wanted to share the info if it could help direct anyone.


Shalom,

GWB

"Be still and know that I am God."
Re: Christian Theology and Medical Science [message #8634 is a reply to message #8633 ] Thu, 24 November 2011 05:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
GWB  is currently offline GWB
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PS

James, if you are interested, they don't mention vitamins! Laughing


Shalom,

GWB

"Be still and know that I am God."
Re: Christian Theology and Medical Science [message #8635 is a reply to message #8634 ] Thu, 24 November 2011 06:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
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I hope William doesn't take offense to this thread getting off a bit(I'm thinking he had something else in mind to discuss when starting it, other than vitamins and health ideas<grin>), if you do, William we can move this over to the thread we had a couple years ago on exercise and eating habits.(It crossed my mind to move it but for now we'll go with it here, if that's agreeable to all)


Gillyann wrote:"Movefree from walmart won't let your joints complain." Laughing It took me a few minutes to grasp what you were saying(I think) Movefree is a product for joint relief...lol. I thought at first you were still talking about the mixture that had metamucil and flax seed oil in it...I kept scratching my head. Smile

"PS

James, if you are interested, they don't mention vitamins!" Laughing


Thanks for the info, weight isn't a problem for me(I have other things to deal with, so don't anyone shake your head too hard<grin>)but maybe someone reading can gleen some helpful instruction from it. I need discipline in my life to 'keep it together', both spiritually and physically, diet and exercise help, imo. While I'm certainly not an expert on the body, I have lived in one for 60 years, and I am totally convienced of the benefits of daily exercise(not as an obsession) and proper diet(healthy nutrients). I believe The Lord designed our bodies to heal themselves with the immune system and cell structure, ect. but we have a responsibility to take care of ourselves(if at all possible, I understand the different problems people have that don't allow for this...but I'm speaking about the majority of people...just look at the children/youth in America, WAAAY too chubby(nice way of saying fat<grin>)and I say that in concern, not poking fun or condemning...I know it's a real struggle for many people, just check out how big a business "Diet Plans" are, Billions and Billions $$$$. It a society problem, we've become lazy and just don't have our priorities in order, spiritually or physically. That can be changed with disipline and education.(and taking away x-boxes, computers, and cell phones....ha ha)

Time for my morning walk(3 miles each day)...

This is the day The Lord hath made, I will rejoice and be glad in it. Don't forget to be thankful.....everyday!

Watch the gravy and trimmings and pie, it's not the turkey that has all the calories...portion size. Smile

I think I'll go with a grilled rib-eye, baked sweet potato, and some english peas...with a little football on the side. Smile


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: Christian Theology and Medical Science [message #8636 is a reply to message #8635 ] Fri, 25 November 2011 05:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
GWB  is currently offline GWB
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Thanks for your info, James.

Also, sorry I was not very clear.

In the past, I have done very well in areas where He requires discipline. I concentrate on one area, and it seems the others go lacking.

Now, I just need to walk in all of them at once......sigh.

Now, back to the main topic.


Shalom,

GWB

"Be still and know that I am God."
Re: Christian Theology and Medical Science [message #8637 is a reply to message #8620 ] Fri, 25 November 2011 12:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
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moulder wrote on Mon, 21 November 2011 19:53

James,

Don't take anything I've said to mean that I think you should give up your vitamins, that isn't the point at all. The point is: that in taking vitamins you are making a discrimination between the good stuff that has been derived from the field of medical science and the bad.

Doing that isn't consistent with the teaching that ALL medical science is occult.

I've used that example ONLY to show that by your actions you have taken a position that you do not believe that ALL medical science is occult. We are in perfect agreement (as far as I can tell) on this issue, if that is the case.

It seemed to me that you were saying, in earlier posts, that you had this issue settled 30+ years ago and to my mind that meant that you were saying the field was not redeemable and that it was, and is today, occult.


William,

You are absolutely right, I have no desire to justify myself, it is/was obviously an area of inconsistency/blind spot/hypocrisy. It wasn't a conscious attempt to misled anyone or 'hide' anything, and while I was on my soapbox declaring my convictions about medicines/drugs being occult, I was sending the wrong message. The reason (different from an excuse) is that in my mind vitamins are not a medicine/drug(just what naturally is already found in foods but lost on the way to the stomach) but a food supplement. Whether that is right or not across the board for all vitamins and supplements, I'm not 100% sure.

But there is no question most or much of this info and discoveries came through the medical/scientific field. And I am no authority on this, but my heart is to be in God's will 24/7 and to be a light(as He commanded me to be). I want to bring forth fruit of righteousness, not confussion or hypocrisy. So to ANYONE whom I have or might have offended or hurt in any way by my words or actions, I sincerely seek your forgiveness and covet your prayers, I have asked The Lord Jesus for forgiveness and repented and am trusting Him to remove from me any way that would reflect a Pharisee additude.

I am NOT 'there' yet, but sometimes maybe the additude I project in what I write(this writing is new to me, and as I've said before, most of what I write is just lessons or messages I feel The Holy Spirit is teaching/showing or reminding me...possibly I've came across as too pushy or authoritative at times); for this I also apologize...I determine to remain and abide 'under His shadow, in the secret place, with a humble and meek spirit' more, that's the place where I want to dwell, 24/7.

Thank you all for your longsuffering...

james


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: Christian Theology and Medical Science [message #8638 is a reply to message #8637 ] Fri, 25 November 2011 15:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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Quote:

I have no desire to justify myself, it is/was obviously an area of inconsistency/blind spot/hypocrisy. It wasn't a conscious attempt to misled anyone or 'hide' anything, and while I was on my soapbox declaring my convictions about medicines/drugs being occult, I was sending the wrong message. The reason (different from an excuse) is that in my mind vitamins are not a medicine/drug(just what naturally is already found in foods but lost on the way to the stomach) but a food supplement. Whether that is right or not across the board for all vitamins and supplements, I'm not 100% sure.


I appreciate your attitude about this but you are right, there isn't a clear distinction in the definition of vitamins that puts them in the drug category. (btw, I don't think that hypocrisy was involved on your part at all.)

I do think that drugs (like vitamins) can be defined as a concoction of chemicals for reasons already given in the other threads and while 'chemicals' aren't evil per se they can be used for evil purposes which to my mind is the distinguishing factor that can make them sinful for the believer.

But, even here, one has to face the reality that a mind-altering drug experience is not all that different from getting drunk from the chemical reaction that produces alcohol. Not that I'm recommending either as a positive experience for anyone, but there is an inconsistency in labeling one as 'just a sin' and the other as 'occult involvement'. I think it is the purpose behind the usage that may ultimately be the deciding factor.

No doubt that some seek a 'spiritual' experience from drug use. I think we can safely say that such usage would amount to occult involvement. Beyond that, I'm still trying to sort out where the line is to be drawn. I hate to define 'occult involvement' on something so subjective as motivation because I'm like everyone else, I prefer to paint the line more objectively -- as black or white. (Anyone want to help us out here?)

Another monkey wrench that no one has mentioned yet (getting back to how we viewed this whole subject back in the day) is the fact that we had five-fold ministers who regularly traveled overseas and as far as I know they had to take shots (drugs) to be able to legally travel. Now these ministers heard the same teaching that we all heard and yet they took these shots to be able to fulfill the higher purpose of 'going into all the world' to preach the gospel. This happened while brother Freeman was alive so presumably there were exceptions to the ALL-drugs-are-occult theology. (I'm operating under the assumption that these ministers took the shots but I don't have direct knowledge about this.)

Does obedience to the great commission trump involvement with occult drug usage?

Blessings,
William

[Updated on: Fri, 25 November 2011 17:24]


I want to believe!
Re: Christian Theology and Medical Science [message #8639 is a reply to message #8637 ] Fri, 25 November 2011 15:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
GWB  is currently offline GWB
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James,

You have ruffled my feathers at times, but that is part of being a family.

Also, you had some pretty good comebacks a time or two.

I appreciate you and all that you do on OO.

We are ALL working on the things you mentioned. Smile

Do you have siblings? Have you ever sat at a table of five hungry kids, fight over the drumsticks, get mad, then offer them your serving of chocolate from the neopolitan ice cream?

I know those were some very strong convictions about your attitude and I respect that. However, as a sibling in Christ, I hope you are not being too hard on yourself. Smile

I love and respect you in Christ. Now, I need to adjust all of these feathers again before Jesus. Wink

[Updated on: Fri, 25 November 2011 16:00]


Shalom,

GWB

"Be still and know that I am God."
Re: Christian Theology and Medical Science [message #8640 is a reply to message #8587 ] Fri, 25 November 2011 17:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
wishing34  is currently offline wishing34
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Moulder said :
 >>>>>Beyond that, I'm still trying to sort out where the line is to be drawn. I hate to define 'occult involvement' on something so subjective as motivation because I'm like everyone else, I prefer to paint the line more objectively -- as black or white.



I believe occult involvement is poorly defined – from the past at FA and up to the present.

This has led to mucho theories and open door ideas – 100's if not 1000's of open door ideas acquired
through deliverance sessions.

Occult deliverance is an important topic that has few Scripture references.



Occult deliverance is a perfect topic for us to ask about to our apostle.




Jman





Re: Christian Theology and Medical Science [message #8641 is a reply to message #8638 ] Fri, 25 November 2011 18:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
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moulder wrote on Fri, 25 November 2011 15:50



But, even here, one has to face the reality that a mind-altering drug experience is not all that different from getting drunk from the chemical reaction that produces alcohol. Not that I'm recommending either as a positive experience for anyone, but there is an inconsistency in labeling one as 'just a sin' and the other as 'occult involvement'. I think it is the purpose behind the usage that may ultimately be the deciding factor.


I have experience with 'mind-altering drugs'(LSD, street drugs, early 70's); I also have experience with prescription 'mind-altering drugs' from medical science. I've shared how in 2006 I went to medical science for help(I'm not going into my testimony about the experience at this time, it's somewhere in several posts), one of their solutions to my aliment(extreme anxiety, insomnia, resulting in weight loss of 30+ pounds in less that 60 days...only weighed 188 to start with)was the drug, Valium (Diazepam), which is generally prescribed for anxiety, muscle spasms, sleep relief, and withdrawal from alcohol.

It worked like a miracle the first time I took it, it would cause my stomach to relax and I was able to eat and also it allowed me to sleep. Problem was, it was highly addictive as well as the body built up resistence against it's effectiveness. Soon it took two to do what 1/2 was doing, thankfully since I had a background knowledge of how addiction worked(not to mention The Holy Spirit gently reminding me that the peace of mind I needed only came through Jesus Christ) I stopped taking the Valium,EDIT: it took time, I didn't stop overnight...just wanted to be completely honest. I dug out a day calander from that time and my memory was refreshed. I would write down the amounts (mg) I would take to ensure I didn't become addicted(it was a concern/fear I had, I would even go months without taking any and some months only 1 or 2) I know this doesn't matter to others, but I want to present the truth to the best of my ability repented,also not an overnight thing and slowly The Lord brought me out of the circumstances, and began working in my heart to deal with that which was causing it all.

Now you my be thinking, Wow james, isn't that a little too much info? Well I do have a point with sharing this, since right after the discusions on medicines/drugs/occult I've been battling the symptoms of anxiety from time to time. I believe I have a good mental understanding of what's going on, and I am pretty sure I understand spiritually what I am to do to defeat it, yet it appears I am given the oportunity to choose a different route this time.

One way to overcome anxiety is prayer and allowing all the scriptures on God's peace and His control in my life regardless of what I'm going through to flood my mind, and to stand on them. Another is to go visit my tennis buddy who is wasting away from colon cancer, I just did this afternoon, and I just count my blessings, enduring a limited trial of anxiety
is nothing compared to facing death from cancer. Also interceeding for him in the spirit doesn't allow anxiety to dominate.

Anyway back to the point of the purpose of use determining whether or not it is used for occult or not, I renounced and took myself through deliverence after I realized how far off I'd gotten...Remember the warning on the labels and TV about if the drug/medicine causes thoughts of suicide and depression? I'm thinking if it's 'just' a chemical that can be used for good or bad, how could it fill ones thoughts(and even dreams) with suicidal thoughts and extreme depression? I do not know if sharing so openly my life will or does help anyone else, but maybe it's therapeutic... Smile

ps: I 'believe' that part of the trial is seeing if I will stand on what I believe The Lord has shown me about this, or if I'll 'decide' that since using it (Valium) doesn't open doors to the occult and is just a lack of faith in Jesus to heal and deliver and go find a doctor to prescribe me some.

Hope this doesn't 'monkey wrench' anything, but I'd be interested in what others think about my discerment of the situation, specificly, based on what I have shared, is Valium just a chemical or is it a vessel to occult bondage? Did God give the knowledge to scientist to develop this drug for good, or is there another source behind it's 'discovery'?If Valium(and I'd imagine Zanex and other anti-anxiety drugs...but I only know about Valium) only help calm the mind and relax the stomach and the other things it's used for, there might could be a good arguement made for it; but the side effects that can<and I believe have> caused people to take their own lives and if not that extreme, at the least tormented their thoughts and dreams(maybe not all who take it) prove (at least to me) there's something behind it that can't be God.btw: I was never under the delusion that it was from God, I just got to a place where I no longer trusted my judgment(and obviously Him alone) and allowed others (I trusted) advice to over-ride my convictions. One thing (among others) I learned from this experience was, a physical trial/chastisement can be kind of ignored sometimes(you know, just claim healing and endure the problem), but when the mind we depend on to always function clearly starts becoming unreliable...different story, serious problem.

I haven't shared this to give place to Satan or glorify drugs(neither deserve to receive this much attention) but to (hopefully) show Jesus' love and mercy to forgive, restore, heal, deliver, and set free. I can not sit in judgment of anyone who chooses to go the route of medical science for healing and relief, I just know our Father has provided the perfect sacrifice, Jesus...and there are no warning labels of negative side effects from trusting Him.

Praise His HOLY Name.


Thoughts?

[Updated on: Sat, 26 November 2011 07:47]


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: Christian Theology and Medical Science [message #8642 is a reply to message #8641 ] Fri, 25 November 2011 21:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sparkles  is currently offline sparkles
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James, thanks for sharing part of your testimony. I agree with you as far as getting another opportunity to take a different route this time to overcome the anxiety the devil is trying to put on you. I can remember hearing over the years that someone may take or do something that seems to have no effect of them, but later the devil will collect where he has been given an open door. I don't believe we always see the consequences of what we choose right at that time. In James 1 it talks of being drawn away of ones own lust and enticed. Then, when lust has conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin when it is finished, bringeth forth death. This is a process.
I Peter 5:6-9 tells us to humble ourselves, casting all our care upon Him; for He careth for us. We are commanded to be
sober, be vigilant, because our adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about seeking whom he may devour. Whom we are to resist stedfast in the faith.

I also remember someone saying, if we praised God more, we would have to rebuke the devil less. Even as I write this I am being convicted I need to do this. God does inhabit the praise of His people. It is great to read and study the Word of God, but it is also very important to praise God and thank Him for our deliverance and freedom and to just praise the Lord.
Praise is just another weapon God has given us in the battle.

As far a Valium? Personally I believe there is another source behing this drug and others. These sorts of things are extremely addictive and harmful to people. The devil would be glad to obligize someone and take away a sympton if he can have access in other ways. There are spiritual entities behind these drugs that want nothing more than for someone to open the door to them so they may oppress and gain control. If anyone has been delivered of a demon, and can experience the immediate freedom from the oppression, then they can see what bondage will do to them. The thief comes to steal, kill and destroy, but Jesus came that we may have life and that more abundantly.
Re: Christian Theology and Medical Science [message #8643 is a reply to message #8641 ] Fri, 25 November 2011 22:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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James,

I too think that you are experiencing an obvious attack from the devil. Here we are going on and on about the theoretical aspects and you are dealing in the trenches with practical realities.

First, the addictive nature of many drugs is common knowledge. Satan will use whatever he can to enslave us and we are not ignorant of his devices -- drugs happen to be one of his most effective tools.

Secondly, and I'm only speaking for myself, I don't think that drugs are an option for the Christian... God has provided us with much better options.

Thirdly, while I do think that we need to re-evaluate the teaching that all drugs equals occult involvement, I don't think that this affects the biblical admonition to trust in God for everything -- including our peace of mind.

Fourthly, the comparison of drugs and wine/strong drink was to highlight the similarities in the two -- not to endorse either. So, just to be clear, both should be avoided by Christians; both can enslave the user.

More later,

Blessings,
William

[Updated on: Fri, 25 November 2011 23:56]


I want to believe!
Re: Christian Theology and Medical Science [message #8644 is a reply to message #8640 ] Fri, 25 November 2011 23:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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wishing34 wrote on Fri, 25 November 2011 17:25

Moulder said :
>>>>>Beyond that, I'm still trying to sort out where the line is to be drawn. I hate to define 'occult involvement' on something so subjective as motivation because I'm like everyone else, I prefer to paint the line more objectively -- as black or white.

I believe occult involvement is poorly defined – from the past at FA and up to the present.

This has led to mucho theories and open door ideas – 100's if not 1000's of open door ideas acquired
through deliverance sessions.

Occult deliverance is an important topic that has few Scripture references.

Occult deliverance is a perfect topic for us to ask about to our apostle.

Jman



I don't think that God expects us to wait for an apostle to tell us what to believe; we already have a pretty good definition that has biblical support. Seeking knowledge or help from supernatural sources not sanctioned by God is a pretty good start. Magical remedies certainly fall into this category.

I do agree that we have placed too much stock in information gathered from deliverance sessions. That isn't to say that all such information is to be disregarded completely. Authoritative doctrine should never be built on demonic information but we can learn a few things about the nature of these demons from our experiences in this area. After all Jesus on one occasion used information gathered from one of these experiences to secure deliverance for an individual. I would think that the very act of asking a demon to name itself was a method of gaining information in order that the deliverance could proceed.

Most information gathered in this manner has relevance only to the situation at hand and should come about as a result of the Holy Spirit's leading. Where we go wrong is when we put all of this information down in a book and call it a manual.

Blessings,
William



I want to believe!
Re: Christian Theology and Medical Science [message #8649 is a reply to message #8587 ] Sat, 26 November 2011 19:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
wishing34  is currently offline wishing34
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If there is to be a clarification of the definition of occult deliverance
there needs first to be a definition of what doctrinal sources will be allowed.


Possible sources of info to establish a doctrine


1) Bible
---------------------
Proof texts from the Bible are to be used - is a given.






2) Deliverance sessions
---------------------
If info from deliverance sessions is to establish doctrine - even in part - then what deliverance
info is considered valid?

Something a demon said?
  • In my opinion. No.


Something a brother/sister says they were given by the Holy Spirit?
  • If so then what is to be done when various HS? revelations contradict each other?
  • What is to be done if that brother/sister falls away and their discernment is in question?
  • What if their revelation is later deemed to be too restrictive ie: a 5 fold shoots it down
  • Do we have confidence in this situation? – will YOU give up XYZ out of your life based upon what comes out of these deliverance sessions? If so then the latest list of taboo items is constantly sent among the believers and everyone is cleansing their homes of these items- right? How could new occult doors not be immediately published among the brethren?


Something that seemed to work – seemed to upset the demon or made it leave?
  • Possibly the alleged demonic reaction was actually a mind game or 'power of suggestion' inside the mind of the person being prayed over.
  • Ever have a serious trial with a child – wherein you are rebuking left and right and closing every possible door you can think of – and then the fever breaks and you decide the open door that mattered was the last one on the list that you thought of before the fever broke – then you make a new open door teaching from your experience? Not reliable.







3) What the apostle says is ' thus saith the Lord ' and then God confirms it with signs?
-------------
  • Apostles are so far off everyone's (correction not Everyone's) radar that we do not even consider such an idea.









4) What a 5-fold teaches?
  • Which 5-fold will we accept as valid?
  • What do we do when they contradict over the years or off in another state?
  • Many have thought of someone like Billy Graham as an evangelist (a 5-fold office) would we like to research and follow Dr. Graham's positions on occult deliverance? Wigglesworth's?
  • What do we do if the accepted 5-fold falls away (how far back did his problems begin?)
  • What do we do if we realize our accepted 5-fold taught some other stuff that was absolutely wrong? Ie; He totally missed it on some other important teaching
  • Is any 5-fold except apostle called to establish doctrine? If a 5-fold steps beyond his calling, his gift, then what will happen? Flesh? Error ???








5) I Cor 12 gifts operating in the assembly?
-------------
  • Do we have enough confidence in the prophecies, tongues, interpretations, teachings from the brethren, etc to establish doctrine? In my opinion – No.
  • Would we still use a brother's I Cor 12 gift to establish doctrine if the brother messes up and we no longer respect his walk.







6) The general consensus of the believers as whole?
-----------------
  • Do we have confidence that people actually independently hear the Lord? So that the group consensus is actually a group involved and not a leader/followers situation.











Then the final occult deliverance definition can be stated along with the sources of
info that went into obtaining the definition.





Jman









Re: Christian Theology and Medical Science [message #8650 is a reply to message #8649 ] Sat, 26 November 2011 20:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sparkles  is currently offline sparkles
Messages: 247
Registered: March 2008
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"Occult deliverance is a perfect topic for us to ask about to our apostle."

Jman, who is this apostle? Do you consider yourself an apostle?

Since you believe that occult involvement is poorly defined from Faith Assembly days to the present, then what is your definition? You ask all these questions, but in asking you should also have an answer that you should be willing to share.

William gave a good basic definition of the occult, but you want to question that. What he wrote could be backed up by scripture. People need to get into God's word themselves and not always look to a man.

No one has said we don't believe in apostles for today because that is not true. We have be given the promise of the apostle, prophet, pastor, teacher and evangelist in God's word. We have been given the Holy Spirit to teach us all things and lead us into the truth. If we don't have an apostle present, or any of the other 5 fold ministers, we can trust God to teach us and lead us. If we are willing to pay the price of study and communion with the Lord, we do not need to fear deception because there is no apostle or man around to tell us what to believe and what to do. And even if there is an apostle around we still need to be sure he is not false and is led of the Lord in what he says.

We cannot blindly follow anyone, whether they call themselves an apostle or prophet or husband or father or friend or elder or anything else. We need to have such a close walk with the Lord that we will know what is truth and what is error. The Holy Spirit will lead us and witness to us what is truth.
Re: Christian Theology and Medical Science [message #8651 is a reply to message #8587 ] Sat, 26 November 2011 22:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
wishing34  is currently offline wishing34
Messages: 212
Registered: March 2009
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Hi Sage,


"Occult deliverance is a perfect topic for us to ask about to our apostle."
I wrote this this way to make the point that we are without an apostle


Jman, who is this apostle? We have none Do you consider yourself an apostle? No

Since you believe that occult involvement is poorly defined from Faith Assembly days to the present, then what is your definition?
I pretty much like what Williams said as far as it goes (it is incomplete):
>>>>>> " Seeking knowledge or help from supernatural sources not sanctioned by God is a pretty good start "


You ask all these questions, but in asking you should also have an answer that you should be willing to share.
I believe the Bible pattern is for the believers to ask their apostle(s) to establish doctrine
if/when the Bible is not clear as It is not on the topic of occult deliverance .

I have shared elsewhere something very similar to what William shared above.

But that is incomplete. For completeness I await the apostle.






William gave a good basic definition of the occult, but you want to question that. What he wrote could be backed up by scripture.
Agreed as far as it goes. It is only a start.



No one has said we don't believe in apostles for today because that is not true.
Agreed. We believe they are supposed to be here. But when they are not we go right on without them.


What if there were no pastors anywhere in the world? Would we not all stand up and say ' Something is terribly wrong '
But we have been accepting of no apostles for so long that we just proceed ahead and then most of us even have
to deal with the sin of pride w/r what a great " church/people of God " that we are.

We are Rev 3:17 to a tee.




We have be given the promise of the apostle, prophet, pastor, teacher and evangelist in God's word. We have been given the Holy Spirit to teach us all things and lead us into the truth. If we don't have an apostle present, or any of the other 5 fold ministers, we can trust God to teach us and lead us. If we are willing to pay the price of study and communion with the Lord, we do not need to fear deception because there is no apostle or man around to tell us what to believe and what to do.

The apostle is not a man telling you what to believe or do. He will be a man who relays God's info to the church and the church will know it is actually God speaking through the apostle because God will confirm it with the
signs of an apostle – mighty signs.

This is how it was in the first century.

If you believe God has made changes and no longer uses apostles in His church ??? then you might well be able to make a coherent argument along such a line of thought but for me, I choose not to go that route.

Your options to temporarily set aside apostles as I see it (I disagree with both)
1) God told His elders through the centuries of changes as He made them to His church

or

2) The signs and wonders (including apostles) are scheduled by God to be on hiatus right now and will re-appear in the end times.






And even if there is an apostle around we still need to be sure he is not false and is led of the Lord in what he says.
The signs of an apostle would confirm what the apostle says.
As in Rev 2:2 apostles do need to be tried.




We cannot blindly follow anyone, whether they call themselves an apostle or prophet or husband or father or friend or elder or anything else. We need to have such a close walk with the Lord that we will know what is truth and what is error.
The Holy Spirit will lead us and witness to us what is truth.

Agreed. But this does not negate apostles for us any more than for the Corinthians
Apostles is the Biblical pattern.













Jman







Re: Christian Theology and Medical Science [message #8652 is a reply to message #8649 ] Sat, 26 November 2011 22:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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wishing34 wrote on Sat, 26 November 2011 19:20

If there is to be a clarification of the definition of occult deliverance
there needs first to be a definition of what doctrinal sources will be allowed.

Possible sources of info to establish a doctrine

1) Bible
---------------------
Proof texts from the Bible are to be used - is a given.

2) Deliverance sessions
---------------------
If info from deliverance sessions is to establish doctrine - even in part - then what deliverance
info is considered valid?

Something a demon said?
  • In my opinion. No.


Something a brother/sister says they were given by the Holy Spirit?
  • If so then what is to be done when various HS? revelations contradict each other?
  • What is to be done if that brother/sister falls away and their discernment is in question?
  • What if their revelation is later deemed to be too restrictive ie: a 5 fold shoots it down
  • Do we have confidence in this situation? – will YOU give up XYZ out of your life based upon what comes out of these deliverance sessions? If so then the latest list of taboo items is constantly sent among the believers and everyone is cleansing their homes of these items- right? How could new occult doors not be immediately published among the brethren?


Something that seemed to work – seemed to upset the demon or made it leave?
  • Possibly the alleged demonic reaction was actually a mind game or 'power of suggestion' inside the mind of the person being prayed over.
  • Ever have a serious trial with a child – wherein you are rebuking left and right and closing every possible door you can think of – and then the fever breaks and you decide the open door that mattered was the last one on the list that you thought of before the fever broke – then you make a new open door teaching from your experience? Not reliable.


3) What the apostle says is ' thus saith the Lord ' and then God confirms it with signs?
-------------
  • Apostles are so far off everyone's (correction not Everyone's) radar that we do not even consider such an idea.


4) What a 5-fold teaches?
  • Which 5-fold will we accept as valid?
  • What do we do when they contradict over the years or off in another state?
  • Many have thought of someone like Billy Graham as an evangelist (a 5-fold office) would we like to research and follow Dr. Graham's positions on occult deliverance? Wigglesworth's?
  • What do we do if the accepted 5-fold falls away (how far back did his problems begin?)
  • What do we do if we realize our accepted 5-fold taught some other stuff that was absolutely wrong? Ie; He totally missed it on some other important teaching
  • Is any 5-fold except apostle called to establish doctrine? If a 5-fold steps beyond his calling, his gift, then what will happen? Flesh? Error ???


5) I Cor 12 gifts operating in the assembly?
-------------
  • Do we have enough confidence in the prophecies, tongues, interpretations, teachings from the brethren, etc to establish doctrine? In my opinion – No.
  • Would we still use a brother's I Cor 12 gift to establish doctrine if the brother messes up and we no longer respect his walk.


6) The general consensus of the believers as whole?
-----------------
  • Do we have confidence that people actually independently hear the Lord? So that the group consensus is actually a group involved and not a leader/followers situation.


Then the final occult deliverance definition can be stated along with the sources of
info that went into obtaining the definition.

Jman




Most of our doctrine should already be established.

I'll admit that this isn't always the case but for the most part it is.

God Himself is the source for His revelation to us and if we ground ourselves in what has already been revealed then we shouldn't have too many difficulties; any God ordained minister will start right there. That was the foundation for FA.

Since the Holy Spirit inspired the Word (and nothing is going to take Him by surprise) I'm pretty sure He has equipped us with all we need as far as doctrine is concerned. We don't need an apostle to tell us that, but if one does, he's going to stay with that fundamental premise. If not, then we can safely say that he is not a minister of God.

You make that clear in your first point; all Church doctrine should line up with the Word already established. No need for further elaboration on that point.

Your second point deals with information gleaned from deliverance sessions. I really don' think that any doctrine should be based upon the things that demons say. Information obtained from the demonic realm is never reliable, because THEY LIE! That isn't to say that the Holy Spirit cannot prompt a person involved in casting out demons to ask for and receive information pertaining to the particular situation they find themselves in but this doesn't a doctrine make.

Relevant information can be obtained in this manner because demons are subject to those who follow Jesus -- He promised us power over all of the power of the enemy but we shouldn't equate that information with Church doctrine.

Interesting? Perhaps.
Useful? To the present situation (that particular deliverance session)... absolutely.

With that in mind the other points under the second section become moot.

Your third point about apostles doesn't really need to be codified because if a true apostle comes along and if signs and wonders do accompany his words, then the Holy Spirit will either bear witness to us, or not. If He doesn't do that for us then we have a much bigger problem than we realize. It goes without saying that there are two sources of the miraculous.

We only need to determine whether or not God is the source of the miracles; to be able to do that we must already be pretty grounded in what He has already given to us and be vigilant, knowing that Jesus Himself warned us about false signs and wonders. But, like I said, if we aren't in a position to be led of the Spirit in an instance like this then it doesn't really matter what we do with the supposed revelation, does it?

That said, I cannot think of any circumstance where there would need to be new doctrine established. Maybe I've just been overly influenced by fundamentalism in this, but at this point -- given what we've been given -- I can't imagine any *new* doctrine that would need to be established. Perhaps more light on an already established doctrine, but not a completely new doctrine. (Maybe someone can give me an example where this would be valid?)

As I think about it, I don't believe that you've got *new* doctrine being established even in the New Testament. Some mysteries were revealed, like the Church, but completely *new* doctrine? (Am I missing something?)

Points 4, 5, and 6 kinda fall into the same areas so I'll wait about going further until we get these things settled, besides, this is already too long.

Blessings,
William


I want to believe!
Re: Christian Theology and Medical Science [message #8653 is a reply to message #8650 ] Sat, 26 November 2011 22:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
GWB  is currently offline GWB
Messages: 713
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Senior Member
Just a comment about Billy Graham's stand on the occult.

I do recall the fact that Billy Graham's ministry referred people to Bro. Freeman and even sent out the Angles of Light book to them.


Shalom,

GWB

"Be still and know that I am God."
Re: Christian Theology and Medical Science [message #8683 is a reply to message #8653 ] Mon, 05 December 2011 18:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mark  is currently offline Mark
Messages: 37
Registered: November 2011
Location: Canada
Member
I finally got time to read through the whole thread here. So the issue here is "medical science" We all benefit from science. Although some of the benefits may be debatable.

Paul called it "science falsely so called" In my opinion that was because it was and is always swayed to be anti-God. "Modern Science" which is a term not a description is a direct result of a christian worldview. Cahills book "The Gifts of the Jews" details that admirably. Francis Schaeffer said the same thing in more detail and from a different point of view.

Some quotes here from Schaeffer's "Escape from Reason"

... The early modern scientists shared the outlook of xianity in believing that there is a reasonable God who had created a reasonable universe and thus man by use of his reason could find out the universes form. . .

Then he lists names Bacon/Copernicus/Galileo/Kepler Farady/Maxwell

It was the Biblical mentality that gave birth to modern science


It was the Judeo/xian outlook on life that gave birth to real science. Most of world even now doesn't believe it. The early Greeks had all the building blocks of modern science but couldn't put them together because they lacked a (xian) worldview that allowed them to put it together. Don't tell modern scientists (or atheists) but they have a distinctly xian point of view.

William (or any one else for that matter ) if you haven't read Francis Schaeffer you should.

His trilogy

The God Who is There
Escape From Reason
He is there and He is not Silent

Are masterpieces. For sure get "How should We Then Live". His prediction at the end of the book was that a dictatorship would arise in America. Left or Right didn't matter. He based that on philosophy/science/art and all the facets of modern life.

I know I haven't addressed all the issues raised here but I wanted to put in a comment about science apart from the medical side. I'm still thinking about that.

Another general comment about science here. Watchman Nee in one of his books said that it was the heathen children of Cain that started all the avenues of human endevor and that they would ultimately find their purpose in the end time in destroying Gods people. That is a memory from many yrs ago and I'm probably not quoting it right but that is the basic gist.

Anyway I still thinking about the Medical side to it. But right off the top I would like to say I think using the term"occult" is simply too strong a word. For science or doctors


I find I always have to write something on a steamed mirror....
Re: Christian Theology and Medical Science [message #9633 is a reply to message #8587 ] Thu, 25 July 2013 04:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gary  is currently offline Gary
Messages: 870
Registered: August 2008
Location: Indiana
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William,

This was interesting to read.

I have wondered about the word translated in Revelations, "Pharmakia" translated sorcery, in which we get our modern day meaning, the local pharmacy. I have asked a number of people their thoughts on this but know one has been able to give a answer that seems satisfactory.

Anyway enjoyed all the posts on this one.

The older you get the more you realize we might not have all the answers we thought we had. But I think were much better off in life then those who had never experienced what we went through. I would not trade it for the world.

Gary

BTW I never knew of anyone who had read Francis Schaeffer's books I will check this out for sure, it sounds interesting.








Re: Christian Theology and Medical Science [message #9634 is a reply to message #9633 ] Thu, 25 July 2013 10:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
GWB  is currently offline GWB
Messages: 713
Registered: March 2008
Location: Louisville, Ky area
Senior Member
I agree, Gary. I would do it all over again in a heartbeat. It was, and has been, hard.

What I walked away with will have eternal blessings for thousands, as well as, myself. Revival!!!!! Nod Nod Smile


Shalom,

GWB

"Be still and know that I am God."
Re: Christian Theology and Medical Science [message #9635 is a reply to message #9633 ] Thu, 25 July 2013 10:49 Go to previous message
william  is currently offline william
Messages: 1188
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Alanbook wrote on Thu, 25 July 2013 04:07

William,

This was interesting to read.

I have wondered about the word translated in Revelations, "Pharmakia" translated sorcery, in which we get our modern day meaning, the local pharmacy. I have asked a number of people their thoughts on this but know one has been able to give a answer that seems satisfactory.

Anyway enjoyed all the posts on this one.

The older you get the more you realize we might not have all the answers we thought we had. But I think were much better off in life then those who had never experienced what we went through. I would not trade it for the world.

Gary

BTW I never knew of anyone who had read Francis Schaeffer's books I will check this out for sure, it sounds interesting.




Amen... I wouldn't want to trade places with anyone outside of our circles!

I haven't read all of Francis Schaeffer's books but I do remember that he had a gift for making people think. The Christian Manifesto was very good, but it (in my opinion) started off with the wrong premise concerning the Christian's involvement in the world's systems.

Blessings,
William

[Updated on: Thu, 25 July 2013 10:50]


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