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Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8540 is a reply to message #8539 ] Tue, 01 November 2011 10:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lesjude  is currently offline lesjude
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It is a wrong impression.
Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8541 is a reply to message #8534 ] Tue, 01 November 2011 10:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
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moulder wrote on Mon, 31 October 2011 21:47


Sorry I haven't answered this question yet... (it is hard to accuse others of sidestepping pertinent questions when I'm guilty myself!)

I suppose the key is discerning what is 'pertinent ' questioning, and being lead of The Lord when answering. Not all questions are asked with sincere motives looking for truth, some are designed with an unterior agenda in mind.

Anyone who suggests that the subject now under consideration is somehow unimportant or not worthy of our attention is severely limited in their capacity for compassion for those groups I mentioned. This lack of compassion isn't unusual however, we are known for it.

I don't think there is anyone who believes(or is suggesting) this is unimportant...that is quite obvious by the reactions it brings out in folks, but I think some people have had this settled long ago and don't feel lead to debate back and forth about it.


Some (on both sides) have stated their positions unequivocally and
refuse to acknowledge any of the valid questions that have been raised
-- your prerogative -- but just so you know that we know -- there are
some glaring inconsistencies in your position. I would imagine that
the cognitive dissonance must be horrendous, <grin> but it shouldn't
keep you from examining why you believe what you believe. Trust me,
your faith will be so much more solid if you do.

At some point we (i) need to stop with the verbal jabs/thrusts,(Joel 2:8) I think I'm at that point. I stated previously my convictions, my faith in them are solid...I have no interest in narrowing the divide between obeying/trusting God and coming to conclusions of the intellect and human reasoning that make disobedience more palatable. I'm not making accusations at individuals, (i love you guys) I just believe this mindset can lead to compromise in those whose faith is weak...OR are looking for a justifiable excuse.




"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8542 is a reply to message #8539 ] Tue, 01 November 2011 10:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lesjude  is currently offline lesjude
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Until you study out these issues we really have no basis for discussion on this topic. It would also help to change your thinking on the good/evil vs the Spirit Of Life issue.
Romans 8:29-30
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
Romans 9:11-23
11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.”[a] 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”[b]
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.”[c] 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.”[d] 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,
Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8543 is a reply to message #8541 ] Tue, 01 November 2011 14:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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Quote:

At some point we (i) need to stop with the verbal jabs/thrusts,(Joel 2:8) I think I'm at that point. I stated previously my convictions, my faith in them are solid...I have no interest in narrowing the divide between obeying/trusting God and coming to conclusions of the intellect and human reasoning that make disobedience more palatable. I'm not making accusations at individuals, (i love you guys) I just believe this mindset can lead to compromise in those whose faith is weak...OR are looking for a justifiable excuse.


Ouch!

I prefer to call it prodding, but your admonishment is acknowledged and I'll try to do better in implementing it in the future.

My purpose in 'prodding' for answers has produced some good though at least as far as my own views are concerned.

1) For years I've questioned the *ALL* medical science and *ALL* drugs equals occult involvement, but I never could put my finger on the reasons why. It didn't affect my position on divine healing because I've burned all bridges to the arm of the flesh and have completely committed myself to the sovereignty of God in this area (I hope you understand what I mean here.)

Because of the teaching at FA I had always equated that route with turning away from God -- to Satan, and believed with all of my heart that taking that road would be apostasy. I don't think that this view was unique to me. In fact I know it wasn't unique to me. It was a mind-set that permeated those in our circles. Maybe you and Sage (and others) weren't afflicted, but I know that many had that same attitude. If you've noticed my passion for this issue has been a result of my concern for those who were similarly affected.

So while this thread wasn't the first time I had considered this issue it has greatly clarified a lot of loose ends for me. (Pardon me for personalizing this so much, but I want you to see that my earlier notes were not just attempts to get others to doubt their positions but to get this fully hashed out in my own mind.)

2) This is related to the above but it is different in that it is a separate issue and that is whether or not the chemical substances themselves are evil. I'm seeing that this isn't a true perception. Substances are not evil in and of themselves (I do believe that demons can attach themselves in some sort of way, that I'm not prepared to explain, to inanimate objects -- like an Ouija board or a figurine for instance -- but the wood itself isn't by nature evil or we'd have to make a decision concerning living in a house built of the stuff.)

I'm very happy for the discussion because I believe that with a better understanding about these things my faith is actually more settled than ever. No one should want to stick with the status-quo if our foundational thinking is wrong.

3) Which brings up a completely separate issue concerning the relationship of faith to sound reasoning. The capacity to think/reason isn't a bad thing. The ability to reason/think is an attribute that God has given to us as human beings and this ability coupled with a renewed mind is one of the greatest assets that we have as humans.

Carnal reasoning without a renewed mind might be in opposition to faith but those who 'understand' who God is are much more likely to have a strong faith than those who adopt a few principles of faith and expect good results. Faith doesn't work that way. Faith *IS* knowledge. It's just knowledge based upon our understanding of the immutable attributes of God and because of this it transcends our physical senses.

Reason even has its place in the carnal unbeliever. Thank God for that! But redeemed reason, that is something we all should aspire toward.

With all of the above in mind, please reconsider your participation. Even if you have everything settled in your heart you can certainly contribute to the understanding of others. I know that I have been influenced by all of you and hope that this kind of interaction can continue. I'll do my best to gently 'prod' instead of resorting to jabs!

Blessings,
William


I want to believe!
Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8545 is a reply to message #8173 ] Tue, 01 November 2011 17:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
wishing34  is currently offline wishing34
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Hi lesjude,



I am not at all following your theology to apply
God's sovereignty to our discussion.


Here is a hypothetical to use as an aide to
clarify our communication.

Say a brother named Zeke, a single parent, has a child who will apparently
die from diabetes in 2 hours. He has come to realize that
his faith is not real. Say the elders have already prayed and
are in the other room praying as are other church members.
Zeke decides to take the child to the hospital.

-------------

Situation summary :

death in 2 hours
Zeke's faith is missing
church/elders are all interceding
Zeke takes child to hospital






lesjude, please apply God's sovereignty as you
understand it to this hypothetical example.

Hopefully I will grasp your theology and we can bounce ideas
back and forth.





Jman






Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8546 is a reply to message #8545 ] Tue, 01 November 2011 17:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
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Information on prescription drugs and testimony of doctors being given incorrect info in medical school, leading to addicted patients.

http://www.foxnews.com/health/2011/11/01/prescription-drug-d eaths-skyrocket/


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8547 is a reply to message #8545 ] Tue, 01 November 2011 19:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lesjude  is currently offline lesjude
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Subject: Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions Author: wishing34 Date: Tue, 01 November 2011 16:26
Hi lesjude,



I am not at all following your theology to apply
God's sovereignty to our discussion.


Here is a hypothetical to use as an aide to
clarify our communication.

Say a brother named Zeke, a single parent, has a child who will apparently
die from diabetes in 2 hours. He has come to realize that
his faith is not real. Say the elders have already prayed and
are in the other room praying as are other church members.
Zeke decides to take the child to the hospital.

-------------

Situation summary :

death in 2 hours
Zeke's faith is missing
church/elders are all interceding
Zeke takes child to hospital
PLEASE SEE MY RECENT POST IN THE BIBLICAL THEOLOGY SECTION ON Predestination, Election, And The Sovereignty Of God [message #8544] Then you can use your example to explain to me what you have learned.
Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8548 is a reply to message #8546 ] Tue, 01 November 2011 20:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JWBTI  is currently offline JWBTI
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James,

Thanks for the post !

It’s astonishing”, says Frieden. He adds that many addictions begin innocently, when patients are given narcotics for a minor injury that could be treated with less addictive medication. “When I went to medical school, we were incorrectly assured – don’t worry – if patients have short-term pain, they won’t get hooked. That was completely wrong, and a generation of doctors, patients and families have learned that’s a tragic mistake.”
Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/health/2011/11/01/prescription-drug-d eaths-skyrocket/#ixzz1cVDvR9kI

oc·cult

1.
of or pertaining to magic, astrology, or any system claiming use or knowledge of secret or supernatural powers or agencies.
(any system claiming use or knowledge of secret)
(What’s in your medical records ? It’s a secret !So are the treatments)

2.
beyond the range of ordinary knowledge or understanding; mysterious.
(Can ya get this in medical school)
3.
secret; disclosed or communicated only to the initiated.
(Medical Doctors)
4.
hidden from view.
5.
(in early science)
a.
not apparent on mere inspection but discoverable by experimentation.
b.
of a naturenot understood, as physical qualities.
c.
dealing with such qualities; experimental: occult science.
(are Doctors still experimenting today ?)

Looks a lot like Medical Science to me in this definition!



Ron
Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8549 is a reply to message #8548 ] Tue, 01 November 2011 20:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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Careful there Ron, you're describing us! <grin>


I want to believe!
Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8550 is a reply to message #8548 ] Tue, 01 November 2011 20:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lesjude  is currently offline lesjude
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They teach a lot of this in the history of medicine courses in med schools.
Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8551 is a reply to message #8550 ] Tue, 01 November 2011 21:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
GWB  is currently offline GWB
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Oh really!!! And have you personally taken these occult, temple of doom med courses?

Just askin'......


Shalom,

GWB

"Be still and know that I am God."
Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8552 is a reply to message #8173 ] Tue, 01 November 2011 21:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
wishing34  is currently offline wishing34
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Hi JWBTI

Please reconsider if you want to say the following points :



1) med science is occult because your med records are a secret

2) the treatments are secret
(but they are taught in med schools and are available to everyone in libraries and med journals
ie: they are not secret)

3) med science is occult because their techniques are only known to the initiated
(but it is available to anyone - people who study the techniques in med schools – ie med doctors
also the techniques are available in books a in the library, journals, etc
they are not kept secret from anyone who wants to study the books )

4) med science is occult because they are still experimenting/learning
(but all fields of study always keep learning/advancing)


JWBTI wrote
>>>>>>> Looks a lot like Medical Science to me in this definition! 

Almost every endeavor of human beings could fit your criteria.






Jman







Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8553 is a reply to message #8173 ] Tue, 01 November 2011 21:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
wishing34  is currently offline wishing34
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Hi lesjude,

Thanks for the time/work associated with your
post on predest/election in the other section.

Very similar to HEF's biblical theology I thought
and nicely organized on your part.


Remaining now is for you to apply these principles
to our ongoing discussion here.







Jman





Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8554 is a reply to message #8553 ] Tue, 01 November 2011 22:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lesjude  is currently offline lesjude
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The info is from HEF's book. If you read the stream you will see I have already applied it.
Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8555 is a reply to message #8552 ] Tue, 01 November 2011 22:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lesjude  is currently offline lesjude
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Medicine is NOT at true science.
Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8556 is a reply to message #8551 ] Tue, 01 November 2011 22:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lesjude  is currently offline lesjude
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No, but a man did in the Tulane medical school. His name is Robert Elender He did a series of messages on med. 'science'. He has since gone back to practicing dentistry. Oh well....
Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8557 is a reply to message #8173 ] Wed, 02 November 2011 11:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
wishing34  is currently offline wishing34
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Hi,

Beware of the following bad doctrine.

It is poised in a position to enter the churches.

It is called the “Doctrine of the Witch-farmers”









---- The Witch-farmer Doctrine --------------

The main point:
The career of farming is both occult and a work of the flesh

The results :
Believers should not be farmers, visit farmers, nor partake of the farmer's products/services
Practicing farmers are occult practitioners and as such are “witch-farmers.”

Supporting arguments :

1) Uncleanness - akatharsia - Gal 5:19 . This Greek word has two meanings.
One is moral uncleanness such as lustful living.
The other is physical uncleanness such as having soil on your hands (needs some soap and water)

These two meanings are merged to conclude that having dirty hands is the same as lustful living.

2) Farmers are living a lifestyle of daily working with the soil and becoming physically
dirty. Therefore they are daily living also in moral uncleanness – a work of the flesh.
This is because physical uncleanness and moral uncleanness are merged (see point 1).

3) It is well known that early farmers knew when to plant and harvest by the stars
and that early “star science” was astrology – an occult practice. Since farming
has its roots in the occult astrology practices therefore modern farming is still occult.



--------------------------------







Beware : the Witch-farmer Doctrine might be coming to a forum near you.






Jman





PS: In case the point is missed. The silly "Witch-farmer" doctrine is derived
with the same treatment of the Greek words and the same poor reasoning that
derives the "med science is occult" doctrine.

If you want to hold on to the med science is occult doctrine then
add the "witch-farmers" to the mix.




Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8558 is a reply to message #8557 ] Wed, 02 November 2011 12:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lesjude  is currently offline lesjude
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The Caduceus vs the Staff of Asclepius (Asklepian) webpage
Permission to use and disclaimer

I am posting this "general permission" (with conditions) and "general disclaimer" (of theological authority), as I have had so many individual requests and queries I am unable to answer them individually - my apologies if you are one of these!

General Permission

The information on this site has been researched from many open "public domain" sources and so may be used freely by anyone, providing any significant copying or use of the concepts I have proposed is acknowledged and cited as:

reproduced from/according to/cited from/courtesy of/with permission from:
(or similar)

www.drblayney.com/Asclepius.html

or

drblayney.com/Asclepius.html

The Caduceus vs the Staff of Asclepius (Asklepian 03)Keith Blayney Sept 2002, revised Oct 2005


Mercury (Hermes) & merchant approach disapproving Asclepius (Physician) and the naked Graces (Meditrine, Hygeia and Panacea)
[Engraved from an original in the then Museum Pio Clemens in Rome
Galerie Mythologique, Recueil de Monuments by Aubin Louis Millin, Paris 1811.]

Asclepius dealt with patients - merchants make deals with clients
Asclepius is linked with a constellation of idealistic medical ideas
Hermes is linked with hermetic occultism
Mercury is identified with mercantile mercenary views


[1] The Caduceus of Mercury (Roman) and the Karykeion of Hermes (Greek)

Many "medical" organisations use a symbol of a short rod entwined by two snakes and topped by a pair of wings, which is actually the caduceus or magic wand of the Greek god Hermes (Roman Mercury), messenger of the gods, inventor of (magical) incantations, conductor of the dead and protector of merchants and thieves. It is derived from the Greek karykeion = "herald's staff", itself based on the word "eruko" meaning restrain, control.

It is interesting to see that most of organisations using this symbol are generally either commercial or military (or American). New Zealand examples include drug and pharmaceutical companies. A study by Friedlander confirms this impression.

The link between the caduceus of Hermes (Mercury) and medicine seems to have arisen by the seventh century A.D., when Hermes had come to be linked with alchemy. Alchemists were referred to as the sons of Hermes, as Hermetists or Hermeticists and as "practitioners of the hermetic arts". There are clear occult associations with the caduceus.

The caduceus was the magic staff of Hermes (Mercury), the god of commerce, eloquence, invention, travel and theft, and so was a symbol of heralds and commerce, not medicine. The words caduity & caducous imply temporality, perishableness and senility, while the medical profession espouses renewal, vitality and health.



[2] The Staff of Asclepius (Ęsclepius, Asklepios)
[Personification of Medical or healing Art and its ideals]

Professional and patient centred organisations (such as the NZMA, in fact most medical Associations around the world including the World Health Organization) use the "correct" and traditional symbol of medicine, the staff of Asclepius with a single serpent encircling a staff, classically a rough-hewn knotty tree limb. Asclepius (an ancient greek physician deified as the god of medicine) is traditionally depicted as a bearded man wearing a robe that leaves his chest uncovered and holding a staff with his sacred single serpent coiled around it, (example right) symbolizing renewal of youth as the serpent casts off its skin. The single serpent staff also appears on a Sumerian vase of c. 2000 B.C. representing the healing god Ningishita, the prototype of the Greek Asklepios. However, there is a more practical origin postulated which makes sense [See Dracunculus medinensis].


Asclepius and his staff

Statue of Askleppios
at Guys Hospital
Who was Asclepius? Asclepius was most probably a skilled physician who practised in Greece around 1200BC (and described in Homer's Iliad). Eventually through myth and legend he came to be worshipped as Asclepius, the (Greek) god of Healing. [See BBC reference]

Medical schools developed, which were usually connected to temples or shrines called Asclepions (Asclepieia) dedicated to Asclepius. The Asclepion became very important in Greek society. Patients believed they could be cured by sleeping in them. They would visit, offering gifts and sacrifices to the god, and be treated by priest healers (called the Asclepiadae). The worship of Asclepius spread to Rome and continued as late as the sixth century.

The Asclepiadae were a large order of priest physicians who controlled the sacred secrets of healing, which were passed from father to son. Harmless Aesculapian snakes were kept in the combination hospital-temples built by the ancient Greeks and, later, by the Romans in honor of the god. The snakes are found not only in their original range of southern Europe, but also in the various places in Germany and Austria where Roman temples had been established. Escaped snakes survived and flourished.

Smooth, glossy, and slender, the snake has a uniformly brown back with a streak of darker color behind the eyes. The snake's belly is yellowish or whitish and has ridged scales that catch easily on rough surfaces, making it especially adapted for climbing trees. Scientific classification: The Aesculapian snake belongs to the family Colubridae. It is classified as Elaphe longissima.

The Myth: Asclepius is the god of Healing. He is the son of Apollo and the nymph, Coronis. While pregnant with Asclepius, Coronis secretly took a second, mortal lover. When Apollo found out, he sent Artemis to kill her. While burning on the funeral pyre, Apollo felt pity and rescued the unborn child from the corpse. Asclepius was taught about medicine and healing by the wise centaur, Cheiron, and became so skilled in it that he succeeded in bringing one of his patients back from the dead. Zeus felt that the immortality of the Gods was threatened and killed the healer with a thunderbolt. At Apollo's request, Asclepius was placed among the stars as Ophiuchus, the serpent-bearer.

Meditrine, Hygeia and Panacea: The children of Asclepius included his daughters Meditrina, Hygeia and Panacea who were symbols of medicine, hygiene and healing (literally, "all healing") respectively. Two of the sons of Asclepius appeared in Homer's Illiad as physicians in the Greek army (Machaon and Podalirius).

Note that the classic Hippocratice Oath is sworn "by Apollo the physician, by Ęsculapius, Hygeia, and Panacea, ....."

The probable medical origin of the single serpent around a rod: In ancient times infection by parasitic worms was common. The filarial worm Dracunculus medinensis aka "the fiery serpent", aka "the dragon of Medina" aka "the guinea worm" crawled around the victim's body, just under the skin. Physicians treated this infection by cutting a slit in the patient's skin, just in front of the worm's path. As the worm crawled out the cut, the physician carefully wound the pest around a stick until the entire animal had been removed. It is believed that because this type of infection was so common, physicians advertised their services by displaying a sign with the worm on a stick. [See graphic photos -not for the faint-hearted or Benjamin.]

The staff as a Medical symbol: From the early 16th century onwards, the staff of Asclepius and the caduceus of Hermes were widely used as printers’ marks especially as frontispieces to pharmacopoeias in the 17th and 18th centuries. Over time the rod and serpent (the Asclepian staff) emerged as an independent symbol of medicine.

Despite the unequivocal claim of the staff of Asclepius to represent medicine (and healing), the caduceus, a rod with two entwined serpents topped by a pair of wings appears to be the more popular symbol of medicine in the United States, probably due to simple confusion between the caduceus and the staff of Asclepius, the true symbol of medicine. Many people use the word caduceus to mean both of these emblems.


CMA



NZMA



Medical Council



WHO


The Caduceus of Hermes

The Greek Hermes found his analogue in Egypt as the ancient Wisdom god Thoth, as Taaut of the Phoenicians and in Rome as the god Mercury (all linked with a magic rod with twin snakes).

The mythical origin of his magic twin serpent caduceus is described in the story of Tiresias. Poulenc, in "Les Mamelles de Tiresias" (The Breasts of Tiresias) tells how Tiresias--the seer who was so unhelpful to Oepidus and Family- found two snakes copulating, and to separate them stuck his staff between them. Immediately he was turned into a woman, and remained so for seven years, until he was able to repeat his action, and change back to male. The transformative power in this story, strong enough to completely reverse even physical polarities of male and female, comes from the union of the two serpents, passed on by the wand. Tiresias' staff, complete with serpents, was later passed on to Hermes...

Occult Hermetic Connection: An occult description of the Caduceus of Hermes (Mercury) is that the serpents may represent positive and negative kundalini as it moves through the chakras and around the spine (the staff) to the head where it communicates with MIND by intellection, the domain of Mercury [wings].

Caduceus Power Wand: This wand is sold at occult, new age & witchcraft stores such as Abaxion with descriptions such as "It's central phallic rod represents the potentiality of the masculine, and is initmately surrounded by the writhing, woven shakti energies of two coupling serpents. The rod also represents the spine [sushumna] while the serpents conduct spiritual currents [pranas] along the ida and pingala channels in a double helix pattern from the chakra at the base of the spine up to the pineal gland".

According to occultists, there are three principal nadis (Sanskrit for channel) in the human body. The sushumna (the spinal column through which the life-forces flow), by which means we enter and leave the body, the Ida (refreshment and stimulation of spirit), which is associated with the higher mind or manas and the Pingala, (reddish-brown), associated with kama or the force of desire. (G. de Purucker "Man in Evolution" ch. 15 & 16; and "Fountain-Source of Occultism", pp. 458-63).

Hermetic: There are few names to which more diverse persons and disciplines lay claim than the term "Hermetic". Alchemists have applied the adjective "Hermetic" to their art, while magicians (not the entertaining type) attach the name to their ceremonies of evocation and invocation. Followers of Meister Eckhart, Raymond Lull, Paracelsus, Jacob Boehme, and most recently Valentin Tomberg are joined by academic scholars of esoterica, all of whom attach the word "Hermetic" to their activities.

The most abiding impact of Hermeticism on Western culture came about by way of the heterodox mystical, or occult, tradition. Renaissance occultism, with its alchemy, astrology, ceremonial magic, and occult medicine, became saturated with the teachings of the Hermetic books. This content has remained a permanent part of the occult transmissions of the West, and, along with Gnosticism and Neoplatonism, represents the foundation of all the major Western occult currents. Hermetic elements are demonstrably present in the Rosicrucian and Theosophical movements.

The caduceus in pseudo-science: There are amazing claims that a Cadeuceus Power Wand has zero impedance and infinite resonance! -check it out here .

The caduceus as a Medical symbol: The link between Hermes and his caduceus and medicine seems to have arisen by Hermes links with alchemy. Alchemists were referred to as the sons of Hermes, as Hermetists or Hermeticists and as "practitioners of the hermetic arts". By the end of the sixteenth century, the study of alchemy included not only medicine and pharmaceuticals but chemistry, mining and metallurgy. Despite learned opinion that it is the single snake staff of Asclepius that is the proper symbol of medicine, many medical groups have adopted the twin serpent caduceus of Hermes or Mercury as a medical symbol during the nineteenth and twentieth centuries.

Like the staff of Asclepius, the caduceus became associated with medicine through its use as a printer’s mark, as printers saw themselves as messengers of the printed word and diffusers of knowledge (hence the choice of the symbol of the messenger of the ancient gods). A major reason for the current popularity of the caduceus as a medical symbol was its illinformed [03] official adoption as the insignia for the Medical Department of the United States Army in 1902.


Medcorp



IUPS



Pagan symbol



Friedlander

Friedlander surveyed 242 logos or insignias of American organizations relating to health or medicine in which the caduceus or staff of Asclepius formed an integral part dating from the late 1970s to early 1980s. He found that professional associations were more likely to use the staff of Asclepius (62%) while commercial organizations were more likely to use the caduceus (76%). The exception is for hospitals, where only 37% used a staff of Asclepius versus 63% for the caduceus [but remember that US hospitals are usually commercial ventures]. Friedlander notes that while the prevalent use of the caduceus for the commercial aspects of medicine might be seen as "more-or-less appropriate", he thinks the reason is that professional associations are more likely to have a real understanding of the two symbols, whereas commercial organizations are more likely to be concerned with the visual impact a symbol will have in selling their products. "Friedlander, Walter J. The Golden Wand of Medicine: A History of the Caduceus Symbol in Medicine." New York, Greenwood, 1992

Further information on the two symbol confusion at:
[01] Bruce Grainger "A Survey of Symbols of Medicine and Veterinary Medicine" and
[02] Darren Nichols "Walk Among Gods -The Symbols of Medicine" and more recently,
[03] Wilcox, Robert A and Whitham, Emma M "The Symbol of Modern Medicine: Why One Snake Is More Than Two" Ann Intern Med. 2003;138:673-677. www.annals.org


And to add some biblical confusion, we have:

And the Lord said unto him [Moses], What is that in thine hand? And he said, A rod. And he said, Cast it on the ground. And he cast it on the ground, and it became a serpent; and Moses fled from before it. And the Lord said unto Moses, Put forth thine hand, and take it by the tail. And he put forth his hand and caught it and it became a rod in his hand. Exodus 4:2-4

The Brazen Serpent
[Julius Schnorr von Carolsfeld 1851-60)]

And the Lord said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten [by a sepent], when he looketh upon it, shall live. Numbers 21:8. The etching "The Brazen Serpent" (to the right) by Schnorr von Carolsfeld shows this as only one snake, suggesting he interpreted this as a medical rather than mystical or magical symbol.

Apparently an Israelite cult subsequently formed worshipping Nehush'tan, the serpent Moses made (apparently twin snake images were inscibed on standards of the time) but the cult was eventually suppressed (over 600 years later) by King Hezekiah - "He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan (2 Kings 18:4).

And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up.
John 3:14-15

Now just in case you thought you had it all sorted out about which was the "good" symbol.... nothing is that simple, take a look at this interesting painting of Adam & Eve.......

Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8559 is a reply to message #8173 ] Wed, 02 November 2011 13:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
wishing34  is currently offline wishing34
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Hi lesjude,

Could you follow up with some theology
that explains how the caduceus symbol
affects a believer.

This would complete your post above.






Jman





Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8560 is a reply to message #8558 ] Wed, 02 November 2011 13:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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Most interesting is this:

Quote:

The probable medical origin of the single serpent around a rod: In ancient times infection by parasitic worms was common. The filarial worm Dracunculus medinensis aka "the fiery serpent", aka "the dragon of Medina" aka "the guinea worm" crawled around the victim's body, just under the skin. Physicians treated this infection by cutting a slit in the patient's skin, just in front of the worm's path. As the worm crawled out the cut, the physician carefully wound the pest around a stick until the entire animal had been removed. It is believed that because this type of infection was so common, physicians advertised their services by displaying a sign with the worm on a stick.


If true then the origin of the origins was a scientific (howbeit crude) method for removing those pesky worms from under the skin before they killed the person. It would be hard to devise a better solution in those ancient times! An alternative method would be to curse the creatures and have them supernaturally removed but that would surely have been considered magical. <grin>

Medical science that resorts to mythology for the basis of treatment ceases to be science... we all would agree with that.

Blessings,
William



I want to believe!
Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8561 is a reply to message #8560 ] Wed, 02 November 2011 13:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lesjude  is currently offline lesjude
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You have taken ONE quote that is opinion and negate all the rest? If you would PLEASE do your homework you would see that medicine is NOT A TRUE SCIENCE. Much is 'practice' and even their 'scientific' studies do not use the scientific method.
Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8562 is a reply to message #8560 ] Wed, 02 November 2011 13:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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Quote:

It would be hard to devise a better solution in those ancient times!


Actually William it would be hard to come up with a better plan in these modern times, we do the same thing when we cut out a buried splinter or pop a pimple.

Blessings,
William


I want to believe!
Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8563 is a reply to message #8561 ] Wed, 02 November 2011 13:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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lesjude wrote on Wed, 02 November 2011 12:51

You have taken ONE quote that is opinion and negate all the rest? If you would PLEASE do your homework you would see that medicine is NOT A TRUE SCIENCE. Much is 'practice' and even their 'scientific' studies do not use the scientific method.


What do you want me to respond to? Mythology?


Blessings,
William


I want to believe!
Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8564 is a reply to message #8173 ] Wed, 02 November 2011 14:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
wishing34  is currently offline wishing34
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Hi lejude,


lesjude said :
PLEASE do your homework you would see that medicine is NOT A TRUE SCIENCE. Much is 'practice' and even their 'scientific' studies do not use the scientific method.


Please point me to where to "do homework" so that I will learn that it is not a science
and that they do not use the scientic method.





Jman










Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8565 is a reply to message #8559 ] Wed, 02 November 2011 14:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lesjude  is currently offline lesjude
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Can a leopard change his spots? Where and how did they get their knowledge of anatomy and still do? The Bible FORBIDS this desecration of a body made in God's image. It is seeking hidden knowledge from forbidden means which is just what ALL occult practitioners do!
Now PLEASE do not tell me all the 'good' that comes from this. If you do you have fallen into Satan's trap again!
Just because medicine has 'cleaned up its act' to fit the 'modern' mind set does not mean it has changed from its roots.
I think you believe they do 'good'. You are correct, but they do MUCH EVIL as well. Again you have run afoul of Satan's disinformation program. As long as you have this thought pattern you will NOT see medicine for what it is. Do you really think Satan would not have his method of healing progress with 'modern' times?
Here is a principle: What was wrong in the beginning does not become right as time passes no matter how much it disguises its 'spots'.
Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8566 is a reply to message #8564 ] Wed, 02 November 2011 14:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lesjude  is currently offline lesjude
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Confessions of a Medical Heretic (9780809241316): M.D. Robert S ...
www.amazon.com/Confessions-Medical-Heretic-Robert-Mendelsohn /...

His 'solutions' are junk but the rest is quite accurate. I alredy posted this in the stream.
Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8567 is a reply to message #8563 ] Wed, 02 November 2011 14:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lesjude  is currently offline lesjude
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These are the occult roots of medicine.
Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8568 is a reply to message #8565 ] Wed, 02 November 2011 14:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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lesjude wrote on Wed, 02 November 2011 13:11

Can a leopard change his spots? Where and how did they get their knowledge of anatomy and still do? The Bible FORBIDS this desecration of a body made in God's image. It is seeking hidden knowledge from forbidden means which is just what ALL occult practitioners do!
Now PLEASE do not tell me all the 'good' that comes from this. If you do you have fallen into Satan's trap again!
Just because medicine has 'cleaned up its act' to fit the 'modern' mind set does not mean it has changed from its roots.
I think you believe they do 'good'. You are correct, but they do MUCH EVIL as well. Again you have run afoul of Satan's disinformation program. As long as you have this thought pattern you will NOT see medicine for what it is. Do you really think Satan would not have his method of healing progress with 'modern' times?
Here is a principle: What was wrong in the beginning does not become right as time passes no matter how much it disguises its 'spots'.


Les,

I don't know how many times we need to say it but medical science is not *all* pure as the wind-driven-snow.

BUT, this ignores the FACT that some of what they do is beneficial to mankind. Maybe it is not as necessary for those who have experienced divine healing but some of it does benefit the misery of the human experience.

What do you expect humanity to do?

People will do everything in their power to alleviate pain and suffering caused by the fall. The Bible states as much:


Prv31:4 It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink:

Prv31:5 Lest they drink, and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted.

Prv31:6 Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts.

Prv31:7 Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more.


Those that suffer will do whatever they can to get relief and just because modern medical science is a poor substitute for the believer doesn't mean that it is something that is forbidden -- especially if it is shown to do at least as much as strong drink can do.

A great solution to the suffering of humanity is for you to get out there and lay hands and heal some of them instead of trying to prove the occult nature of something to a group of believers who already believe in divine healing. Let those poor souls be the judge of whether or not your theology is working.

What we are dealing with here is a situation that has arisen BECAUSE of teaching that has explicitly stated that *ALL* medical science is occult. That is the question that we've been considering and no amount of SHOUTING "IT'S OCCULT" is going to make it so, or answer those legitimate questions.

Blessings,
William

[Updated on: Wed, 02 November 2011 14:51]


I want to believe!
Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8570 is a reply to message #8173 ] Wed, 02 November 2011 16:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
wishing34  is currently offline wishing34
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Hi lesjude,


Thank you for giving a principle.



lesjude said:
Here is a principle: What was wrong in the beginning does not become right as time passes no matter how much it disguises its 'spots'.





Right and wrong are not really what we are discussing here. All agree that God
provided healing and going to the arm of the flesh is “wrong.”'


The question is whether or nor med science is occult. If occult then many
would not go even to save a child's life.




As far as your principle - please apply it to

modern chemistry that has roots in alchemy
modern agriculture that has roots in astrology (planting/harvesting according to the Zodiac)
modern astronomy with roots in astrology
modern Geophysics with roots in the ancient volcano gods





I believe your principle cannot be used to establish theology.

Jman



Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8571 is a reply to message #8173 ] Wed, 02 November 2011 16:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
wishing34  is currently offline wishing34
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Hi lesjude,

You show a pattern of validating your statements by referring to
your faith exploits.

This is counterproductive w/r a discussion on doctrine.

At best you might provide a validating experience that could
be countered by someone else's differing experience. Both would
fall into the category of anecdotal evidence which cannot
establish doctrine.





Jman





Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8572 is a reply to message #8571 ] Wed, 02 November 2011 17:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lesjude  is currently offline lesjude
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YOU are the one that challenged me with a 'scenario' and a slam at what you do not think I am doing. I gave my experience and the doctrine to explain it. You refuse to look at the issue except on the basis of good and evil and disregard the sovereignty of God which you do not understand or you would NEVER raise the question of people going or not going to the medical system because it is occult. It is, as I have carefully explained, but that makes NO DIFFERENCE. They will do ALL that is in their heart if it is occult or not.
Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8573 is a reply to message #8570 ] Wed, 02 November 2011 17:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lesjude  is currently offline lesjude
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Are you willing being obtuse? The medical system has its roots in the occult which I have pointed out, with scripture, on how they get their knowledge. The were wrong in the beginning and that has not changed. This was the point of my principle. I am wasting my time!
Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8574 is a reply to message #8173 ] Wed, 02 November 2011 18:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
wishing34  is currently offline wishing34
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Hi lesjude,

lejude wrote:

>>>> I am wasting my time!


Agreed, for all.

Jman









Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8575 is a reply to message #8545 ] Wed, 02 November 2011 19:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sparkles  is currently offline sparkles
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Hello Jman,
I was just wondering if you absolutely, with no doubts, believe there is no part of medical science that is occult. And if you believe any part is, what part would that be? and why? And who would decide what is and what isn't?
Everyone is accountable for themselves before God if they choose the medical science route. I am not their judge and would tell them to seek the Lord themselves if they want to go to the doctor or take drugs, which by the way, up here in
Grand Rapids, there is quite a shortage of certain drugs. Drugs that treat cancer and the ones that help people with
ADHD and ADD. They say there is three times the shortage than there was a few years ago. One of the reasons they gave was some of the chemicals or ingredients that are imported are in short supply.
Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8576 is a reply to message #8173 ] Wed, 02 November 2011 19:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
wishing34  is currently offline wishing34
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Hi Sage,


you wrote:
I was just wondering if you absolutely, with no doubts, believe there is no part of medical science that is occult. And if you believe any part is, what part would that be? and why? And who would decide what is and what isn't?






I believe the definition of occult involvement is seeking anything SUPERNATURAL from
any source other than God.





So some drugs/procedures are occult if they operate by supernatural (would be demonic) means which
probably includes some mainstream medical drugs -- morphine?????
So some parts of med science are, in my opinion, occult.

I also believe the mind bending type drugs that put the user in contact
with the spirit world - are also occult. Ex LSD, cocaine, again morphine????



Who decides? To me the above definition decides. I guess there might be some drugs that
we are not sure if they are just chemistry in action or if they are supernatural. Then the believer needs to
pray for discernment or - probably better - just avoid these.


Doubts? I have no doubts in the above definition of what is occult and then I go from there
the best I can.

If something is not supernatural then I have no fear w/r occult.




Jman









Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8585 is a reply to message #8576 ] Fri, 04 November 2011 19:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JWBTI  is currently offline JWBTI
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We have sang songs about the Blood, we have pleaded the Blood over diseases
And infections. We have spent years defending the Purity of the Blood of Jesus.
His Blood is Pure and Holy with out contamination ! Spiritually and Physically !

Be cautious in how we contaminate our own Blood !

Why.. ?

11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood:
Lev 17:11 (KJV)

Just say….No to Drugs…and Thank you Jesus for Healing us ! Very Happy


Ron
Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #12037 is a reply to message #8585 ] Tue, 03 May 2016 23:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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I just ran across an interesting article and decided to post it under this wonderful discussion in order to bring it back up to the top of the list!

Nothing that we haven't heard before but it somehow never fails to stun me every time I see the statistics in black and white... truly it is so much better to trust in the Lord!!

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/to-your-health/wp/2016/0 5/03/researchers-medical-errors-now-third-leading-cause-of-d eath-in-united-states/

Blessings,
William


I want to believe!
Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #12038 is a reply to message #12037 ] Wed, 04 May 2016 07:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
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In the first paragraph below the graph chart they say that the hospitals and medical care centers try to avoid talking about these issues...(of medical mistakes killing people) Wonder why? Duh!

That may be 'part' of the reason for so many lab test and being sent to 'specialist'...just to be 'safe'. Of course there is the $$$$$$ part.

Last Friday my buddy, who has had a stroke and open heart surgery and is on various meds all the time, asked me to take him to the emergency room. He had cut his finger slicing a watermelon a few days before and needed stiches, when he went to have the stiches removed the surgeon said he had an infection and needed antibiotics. He thought since he had had all these medical issues in the past that an infection could be serious {and it could be} but rather than write him a prescription for antibiotics, he sent him to the emergency room. They told him he had an infection and needed antibiotics and wrote him a prescription for them. His copay for the trip to the emergency rom was $300. In and out in a few minutes.

I acknowledge that people are helped and lives are saved through medical science, but there are MAJOR PROBLEMS with the whole system.

And I'm now within the 'window' of time <65> for signing up for Medicare...another issue that needs addressing.


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #12043 is a reply to message #12037 ] Wed, 11 May 2016 05:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gary  is currently offline Gary
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I read through this whole thread and thought the whole conversation was interesting. It was written five years ago.

The one thing I thought of is; Does God have hidden meanings, in certain words that change with each translation, that He is trying to show us?

We know for sure sorcery is an abomination to the Lord, because He has told us this all through the scriptures. If medicine is an abomination why is it not plainer in scriptures?

If there is a hidden meaning with this word "Pharmakeus", then are there other hidden meanings with other words?

Just some thoughts on this subject.

I'm not a big fan of medical science, and I don't put my trust in them, as I know, God is my healer and nothing is impossible with the Lord. But I do wonder about this whole line of thinking when it comes to tying medicine with the occult.

I may share some more thoughts later on this, but I did enjoy what was being said in these posts.


Gary





Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #12044 is a reply to message #12043 ] Wed, 11 May 2016 14:18 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
james  is currently offline james
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Well, I started back through it until I came to message 8242 (by me) and read my response to Jman (wishing34). I no longer believe than any use of medicine or interaction with doctors and nurses is opening oneself to the occult. I'm sorry for the way I answered Jman and implied that just because he was questioning the teachings of HEF ( maybe just the end results) he was somehow an apostate and had turned from faith in Christ(I didm't 'say' that but I did imply it)

Just wanted to clear up my position today and to say to Jman if he ever reads this... sorry brother, and thank you for causing me to reexamine my beliefs.


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
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