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Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8427 is a reply to message #8424 ] Wed, 26 October 2011 09:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
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moulder wrote on Wed, 26 October 2011 08:08



1. All true Christians are willing to go to death's door and beyond when the choice is between Jesus and Satan.

I know they are in confession, but how many really do when the fire of the trial is blazing in their faces?

2. We all are ambassadors of Jesus, not just the 'five-fold' and what we believe and teach is always going to be important. Now, is the most important time for all of us.

Amen brother, we can't(and shouldn't want to) live in the past...yet we are admonished to hold fast to that which has been given and Jeremiah comes to mind about seeking the old paths...everything kept in context, of course.

3. Not Jman, but I can answer YES -- I'd love to apply this in hindsight. But since I cannot and because there are multiple hundreds if not thousands of people who were affected by this teaching I'd say that it is high-time we got it right. There were casualties. There were many. We not only owe it to ourselves to get it right, we owe it to them.

OK, here's a question for you(don't let me be the only one willing to lay myself bare to the expense of ridicule<grin>) do you think conviencing 'everyone' from the day that drugs and pharmakeia do not originate from the occult will change anything?...since we seem to agree that trusting in anything besides Jesus is sin; unless the slope leads to the conclussion since the drugs/medicines/medical science aren't from the occult/Satan then they must be OK, and even possibly 'FROM' God, and certainly not outside the will of God to use for healing instead of Him...that is pretty much what most of Christendom believes, is it not?

I'm telling you James, when you listen to that tape you're listening to a water-shed type of moment. By moving medical science out of the realm of 'a lack of faith' and placing it into the realm of the demonic possession/oppression a dynamic was created that reverberates to this very day. This isn't just reminiscing about the good-old-days -- it has present day ramifications for us all.

Maybe it was because my grandmother had taught and lived divine healing without the aid of drugs and doctors(though I didn't receive it as a child) it wasn't such a 'water-shed' moment for me...it was more like, A-men, grandma was right after all. And I imediately embraced and started walking in it. I do remember people wrestling with it and stumbling.

Blessings,
William



"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8428 is a reply to message #8427 ] Wed, 26 October 2011 09:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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Quote:

Maybe it was because my grandmother had taught and lived divine healing without the aid of drugs and doctors(though I didn't receive it as a child) it wasn't such a 'water-shed' moment for me...it was more like, A-men, grandma was right after all. And I imediately embraced and started walking in it. I do remember people wrestling with it and stumbling.


Your grandmother equated medical science and drugs with Satan??

Blessings,
William


I want to believe!
Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8429 is a reply to message #8427 ] Wed, 26 October 2011 10:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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Quote:

OK, here's a question for you(don't let me be the only one willing to lay myself bare to the expense of ridicule<grin>) do you think conviencing 'everyone' from the day that drugs and pharmakeia do not originate from the occult will change anything?...since we seem to agree that trusting in anything besides Jesus is sin; unless the slope leads to the conclussion since the drugs/medicines/medical science aren't from the occult/Satan then they must be OK, and even possibly 'FROM' God, and certainly not outside the will of God to use for healing instead of Him...that is pretty much what most of Christendom believes, is it not?


1. EVERYONE HERE AGREES ABOUT THE ORIGINS OF PHARMIKIA.

2. NO ONE IS SAYING MEDSCI/DRUGS *EQUALS* = "OKAY".

3. NO ONE IS SAYING THAT MEDSCI/DRUGS IS "FROM" GOD.


Of course, if you are isolated from other Christians I'd say that this issue is moot. But if you minister to other Christians you are obligated to warn them about their involvement in the SATANIC REALM OF OCCULTISM; afterall there are eternal consequences to consider.

It effects how we evangelize.

Here's how the process of evangelism should go if we are of the opinion that medsci/drugs = occult involvement:

A.) get them saved
B.) get them out of the hospital
C.) get them off of all drugs.

Instead of

A.) get them saved
B.) teach them about faith
C.) let them experience the healing power of Jesus.

Now if you can't see the monumental problems created by the taking the former approach, *and* the absolute necessity of taking that approach -- if you believe that they are in danger of becoming demoniacally oppressed/possessed -- then I'm wasting my time and the time of everyone here.

Blessings,
William


I want to believe!
Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8430 is a reply to message #8429 ] Wed, 26 October 2011 11:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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Let's face it, brother Freeman gave all of us the tools we need to eventually come to a Biblical understanding not only in this, but in other realms as well. If, when we talk about "holding fast the things we've heard", we are talking about that, then I'm holding fast as hard as I know how, but if we are talking about holding on to a teaching that is the teaching of a man -- just because we respect the man -- then I'm doing all I can to work against that attitude.

I would not put the teaching we heard about "divorce & remarriage" in the same category as this issue, but in terms of how it affected those who found themselves in that group, this came close to being as important. It affected their lives in a profound way. Those who came under the influence of that teaching either left their second marriages or left the body. There probably were some who didn't/don't fall neatly into those extremes but I can imagine that they never felt fully integrated into our fellowship under those circumstances.

Like I said, the teaching on divorce & remarriage is not an exact parallel with the medsci/drugs teaching (because of the supposed occult nature of the latter) but it does show the utter hopelessness of being faced with a decision where one was forced to make a choice between "following Jesus"(the teaching) -- or staying with the 2nd marriage. It was all the more complicated when kids were involved as was in my mom's case; -- yes, under that teaching I'm a bastard child. (Grandom can vouch for the Biblical usage of that term!)

Hopefully no one here considers that teaching unworthy of a second look even if it doesn't directly effect their situation, so it isn't strange to be looking at an issue that has even graver consequences.

Blessings,
William


I want to believe!
Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8431 is a reply to message #8428 ] Wed, 26 October 2011 11:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
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OK, one at a time<smile>

Yep, my grandma equated medical science and all their high-falutin ways with the devil...

and grandpa too!(I'll keep the many reasons to myself) Smile


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8432 is a reply to message #8429 ] Wed, 26 October 2011 12:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
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Onward and upward...(as my dead pilot friend used to say) Smile

I am willing to discuss this stuff(unlike most others) but let's not take or allow it to become a 'you' vs 'me' discussion. It's very safe keep your mouth shut and just reading along(and that's perfectly fine everyone doing so, enjoy.)but when I don't get in the middle of a discussion it seems a bit different. So here I am, in a thread that I'd really just as soon be a spectator in willing to converse about the issues. But you guys are going to have to provide the ammo...<grin...shrug...>

Don't become exasperated with the endeavor, just line up the ducks and let people decide,eh?


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8433 is a reply to message #8430 ] Wed, 26 October 2011 12:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
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FOCUS, we ain't going into the marriage/divorce/remarriage issue, are we? Hey! I'm an living epistle on that subject...but not now, OK?

Yep Grandom would be the resident expert on dat...but he ain't play'n right now.


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8435 is a reply to message #8429 ] Wed, 26 October 2011 13:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sparkles  is currently offline sparkles
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"Of course, if you are isolated from other Christians I'd say that this issue is moot. But if you minister to other Christians you are obligated to warn them about their involvement in the SATANIC REALM OF OCCULTISM; afterall there are eternal consequences to consider.

It effects how we evangelize.

Here's how the process of evangelism should go if we are of the opinion that medsci/drugs = occult involvement:

A.) get them saved
B.) get them out of the hospital
C.) get them off of all drugs."

Brother Freeman sure didn't teach what you wrote above, but rather to do what you said in the next part: A.) get them saved
B.) teach them about faith
C.) let them experience the healing power of Jesus."

You don't give meat to babies, you feed them and teach them and help them grow up, so they can eat meat. And besides, when someone is set free from demonic oppression, they have to keep the door shut, and they have to be taught the word of God and faith in Jesus to do this.

One area is occult deliverance and wherever Satan has an open door: including getting free from the effects of medical science. Do I believe drugs(Pharmakeia) are of an occult nature? I would say yes.
Just because there are things of the devil that have been sterilized to make them appear good doesn't mean they are.
Doing a little study on the definition of Pharmakeia there sure seems to be alot of similarities from then to now.

Are we doing anyone a favor by justifying drugs and medical science? I don't think so. Things people use to embrace they now call it a curse. Their children are doing things that they never would have wanted.
We are in the season of Halloween, and it makes one wonder, how many people who would never embrace and allow their children to participate now go to parties and encourage their grandchildren to dress up in those costumes? Because after all, they sure look cute and can get free candy, and besides what does it hurt?

There is so much that could be said, but people need to be willing to forsake all(including medical science) and trust Jesus. It is no small thing to be a follower of Jesus, and there is nothing in the world that compares with knowing the God who created us and the God who heals us.
Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8436 is a reply to message #8173 ] Wed, 26 October 2011 13:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
wishing34  is currently offline wishing34
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Hi James,

Here is what I am perceiving from you:



I think you are saying:

1) The pharmakeia teaching is just fine as taught 30 years ago.

2) This discussion is coming against the entire healing message.

3) We should hold fast to what we were taught by HEF out of respect for the gift
to teach that he had.

------------

Point 2 above would not be an accurate analysis of this thread.


Points 1 and 3 could combine and leave you with a nicely
consistent theological position. This was my position years ago.

According to me 30 years ago:
(The Greek definition of pharmakeia is not conclusive by itself but we have the
revelation about it given to HEF – our anointed teacher – therefore we
agree with HEF)


I think you could stake out your stand with points 1 and 3 and
be theologically consistent.

Then you and I agree to disagree w/r respect of HEF's revelation
part of it. -> which results in us disagreeing as we do conscerning
med science as occult or not occult.


Unresolved then is how each believer is to decide for themselves
whether to agree with HEF's revelation on this or not.



Also unresolved is how we are to react to each other (or
others who disagree with us ) - the old way of " disagree with me
and you are of the devil " needs a re-think in my view



Jman




Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8437 is a reply to message #8432 ] Wed, 26 October 2011 13:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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Quote:

So here I am, in a thread that I'd really just as soon be a spectator
in willing to converse about the issues. But you guys are going to
have to provide the ammo...<grin...shrug...>

Don't become exasperated with the endeavor, just line up the ducks and
let people decide,eh?


If you think I'm enjoying this then you'd be wrong.

Those who hold to the medsci/drug-occult-connection are the ones who should be front and center on this. There is no excuse for letting anyone go along with the notion that they are saved when you know better. You'd certainly give a piece of your mind to anyone who thought that celebrating Halloween or visiting a fortune teller as a Christian was simply something that they will eventually 'get right' given enough time and teaching. There should be no hesitation on your part to pull these individuals out of the fire, immediately.

Blessings,
William

[Updated on: Wed, 26 October 2011 13:53]


I want to believe!
Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8438 is a reply to message #8435 ] Wed, 26 October 2011 13:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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Quote:

Brother Freeman sure didn't teach what you wrote above, but rather to do what you said in the next part: A.) get them saved
B.) teach them about faith
C.) let them experience the healing power of Jesus."

You don't give meat to babies, you feed them and teach them and help them grow up, so they can eat meat. And besides, when someone is set free from demonic oppression, they have to keep the door shut, and they have to be taught the word of God and faith in Jesus to do this.

One area is occult deliverance and wherever Satan has an open door: including getting free from the effects of medical science. Do I believe drugs(Pharmakeia) are of an occult nature? I would say yes.
Just because there are things of the devil that have been sterilized to make them appear good doesn't mean they are.
Doing a little study on the definition of Pharmakeia there sure seems to be alot of similarities from then to now.


I put those things in an abc simplified format because James requested it that way. Brother Freeman did teach the importance of growing in the faith BUT HE TOOK THIS ISSUE OUT OF THE REALM OF FAITH when he said that it wasn't simply a matter of this or that person having a lack of faith for healing it was a matter that required occult deliverance.

Babies who can't eat meat are one thing, babies that are involved in the occult are a whole different matter. It isn't a growth process at that point it is a salvation issue and if that teaching is accurate then we have no choice but to act accordingly and jerk them out of the clutches of their occultic bondage.

If I haven't shown the difference by now, I give up.



Blessings,
William


I want to believe!
Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8440 is a reply to message #8429 ] Wed, 26 October 2011 19:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
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moulder wrote on Wed, 26 October 2011 10:16


1. EVERYONE HERE AGREES ABOUT THE ORIGINS OF PHARMIKIA.

Do we? I think based on the lastest posts by Jman and Sage, there isn't an agreement there.

2. NO ONE IS SAYING MEDSCI/DRUGS *EQUALS* = "OKAY".

As a RN, GWB surely thinks medical science and drugs are "OKAY" or she wouldn't be part of that profession.

3. NO ONE IS SAYING THAT MEDSCI/DRUGS IS "FROM" GOD.

At least no one has said it out loud, I do believe there are those that believe this.



I see posts on no anointing being the problem; others on no apostles being the problem; the belief that HEF was only speaking his opinion(or 'his' revelation) concerning pharmakeia/occult origins...so is it a combination of the above? all or part of the above? Maybe in the search for an answer the questions lead to the validity of the belief that medical science and drugs originated in the occult.(unless I've misunderstood you guys, William and Jman, you have each reach different conclusions concerning the origins with William agreeing that indeed it sprang from the occult...and Jman thinks the association was from the imagination of a man, HEF.)
But both believing it should no longer be considered occult... (I guess? and no longer a need of deliverance because it's no longer an open door to oppression/possession?)


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8441 is a reply to message #8173 ] Wed, 26 October 2011 19:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
wishing34  is currently offline wishing34
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Hi,


Here is some food for thought for those that
think the pharmakeia – med science/occult
teaching comes straight from the definition of
pharmakeia








witchcraft – pharmakeia - Gal 5:20
Thayers 1: the use or adminstering of drugs

Thayers 2: poisoning

Thayers 3: sorcery. magical arts – often related to idolatry

Now lets connect the word definitions and say
drug use/administering and poisoning are the same as witchcraft ← This is what is done




Now watch what happens if we treat other Greek words the identical
way that we treat pharmakeia.




Uncleanness - akatharsia - Gal 5:19
Thayers 1: physical uncleanness (getting dirty)

Thayers 2: moral uncleanness – ex. Lustful living

Now lets connect the word definitions and say
physical uncleanness (farming all day maybe) is the same as moral uncleanness






Variance – dzelos Gal 5:20
Thayers 1: zeal, ardor in embracing, pursuing, defending anything

Thayers 2: an envious and contentious rivalry, jealousy

Now lets connect the word definitions and say
embracing or defending something is the same as jealousy or bickering







Heresies - aireseis Gal 5:20
Thayers 1: act of taking or capture

Thayers 2: choosing

Thayers 3: that which is chosen

Thayers 4:a body of men separating themselves from others and following their own tenets


Now lets connect the word definitions and say
taking, choosing, being chosen are the same as being part of a church faction (sect)











You can see that equating the various word definitions is not a workable way to discern doctrine




==================================================

I believe to defend the med science/occult
doctrine you must defend it as a revelation
given to HEF and that you cannot
defend the med science/occult doctrine as
straightforward Biblical exegesis.






Jman


Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8442 is a reply to message #8440 ] Wed, 26 October 2011 21:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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james wrote on Wed, 26 October 2011 19:02

moulder wrote on Wed, 26 October 2011 10:16


1. EVERYONE HERE AGREES ABOUT THE ORIGINS OF PHARMIKIA.

Do we? I think based on the lastest posts by Jman and Sage, there isn't an agreement there.

2. NO ONE IS SAYING MEDSCI/DRUGS *EQUALS* = "OKAY".

As a RN, GWB surely thinks medical science and drugs are "OKAY" or she wouldn't be part of that profession.

3. NO ONE IS SAYING THAT MEDSCI/DRUGS IS "FROM" GOD.

At least no one has said it out loud, I do believe there are those that believe this.



I see posts on no anointing being the problem; others on no apostles being the problem; the belief that HEF was only speaking his opinion(or 'his' revelation) concerning pharmakeia/occult origins...so is it a combination of the above? all or part of the above? Maybe in the search for an answer the questions lead to the validity of the belief that medical science and drugs originated in the occult.(unless I've misunderstood you guys, William and Jman, you have each reach different conclusions concerning the origins with William agreeing that indeed it sprang from the occult...and Jman thinks the association was from the imagination of a man, HEF.)
But both believing it should no longer be considered occult... (I guess? and no longer a need of deliverance because it's no longer an open door to oppression/possession?)





I'll stand by those statements. That's the way that I've read the other's opinions... if I'm wrong about it let them tell me plainly.

1. As I read their comments I think that all have acknowledged that the origins of the word pharmikia was closely yoked to witchcraft/sorcery -- Jman? GWB? James? HEF? Sage? Mark? Ron? Grandom? I haven't heard anyone dispute that fact.

2. Concerning drugs, I believe that everyone has expressed and acknowledged that all are not -- "okay". Pretty sure about Jman, GWB explicitly stated as much, I'll let the rest speak for themselves but I'm certain there won't be anyone who "okays" all drugs.

3. I suppose that by my making the statement that no one believes that drugs are "from God" one could misconstrue that to mean that since God made everything... etc., but I don't think anyone who has our background would take that as my meaning. To be clear: God has provided healing in the atonement and I believe that all would agree that the drug route is by comparison not from God, or at least does not represent His repertoire of healing methods.


Have I misrepresented you Jman? GWB? anyone? by those statements?

If I have, I'll stand corrected.

Blessings,
William


I want to believe!
Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8443 is a reply to message #8173 ] Wed, 26 October 2011 21:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
wishing34  is currently offline wishing34
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Have I misrepresented you Jman?


No







Jman





Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8444 is a reply to message #8441 ] Wed, 26 October 2011 22:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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wishing34 wrote on Wed, 26 October 2011 19:35

Hi,

Here is some food for thought for those that
think the pharmakeia – med science/occult
teaching comes straight from the definition of
pharmakeia


witchcraft – pharmakeia - Gal 5:20
Thayers 1: the use or adminstering of drugs

Thayers 2: poisoning

Thayers 3: sorcery. magical arts – often related to idolatry

Now lets connect the word definitions and say
drug use/administering and poisoning are the same as witchcraft ← This is what is done


Now watch what happens if we treat other Greek words the identical
way that we treat pharmakeia.


Uncleanness - akatharsia - Gal 5:19
Thayers 1: physical uncleanness (getting dirty)

Thayers 2: moral uncleanness – ex. Lustful living

Now lets connect the word definitions and say
physical uncleanness (farming all day maybe) is the same as moral


Variance – dzelos Gal 5:20
Thayers 1: zeal, ardor in embracing, pursuing, defending anything

Thayers 2: an envious and contentious rivalry, jealousy

Now lets connect the word definitions and say
embracing or defending something is the same as jealousy or bickering


Heresies - aireseis Gal 5:20
Thayers 1: act of taking or capture

Thayers 2: choosing

Thayers 3: that which is chosen

Thayers 4:a body of men separating themselves from others and following their own tenets


Now lets connect the word definitions and say
taking, choosing, being chosen are the same as being part of a church faction (sect)


You can see that equating the various word definitions is not a workable way to discern doctrine

==================================================

I believe to defend the med science/occult
doctrine you must defend it as a revelation
given to HEF and that you cannot
defend the med science/occult doctrine as
straightforward Biblical exegesis.

Jman



Hey, I just noticed... you are taking words right from the same context as pharmakia (Gal 5:19-20) for your exhibition... interesting concept!

Blessings,
William


I want to believe!
Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8445 is a reply to message #8438 ] Thu, 27 October 2011 09:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sparkles  is currently offline sparkles
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"Babies who can't eat meat are one thing, babies that are involved in the occult are a whole different matter. It isn't a growth process at that point it is a salvation issue and if that teaching is accurate then we have no choice but to act accordingly and jerk them out of the clutches of their occultic bondage."


William, I don't understand why it is a salvation issue. A christian can be occultly oppressed and still be saved. A person cannot receive the Baptism in the Holy Spirit because of occult oppression, but they are still saved. People need to have room to grow in faith and be taught about the effects of medical science, yoga, karate, Feng Shui, Halloween, Aromatheraphy, Accupuncture, Inner healing, Theophostics and many other deceptions that have infiltrated the church and has oppressed multiple of christians. They need to be taught how to get free and stay free. There have been alot of posts on this site that does just that.
Unfortunately there isn't alot of pastors out there who seem to be teaching the truths of Gods word. I wouldn't even call them deeper truths, just basic truths. Such as, the Lord said He would supply all our needs, give us peace, joy, trials, faith, deliverance, healing, persecution and so many other promises that is ours just for the believing and walking in obedience.


Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8448 is a reply to message #8445 ] Thu, 27 October 2011 10:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Sage wrote on Thu, 27 October 2011 09:59

"Babies who can't eat meat are one thing, babies that are involved in the occult are a whole different matter. It isn't a growth process at that point it is a salvation issue and if that teaching is accurate then we have no choice but to act accordingly and jerk them out of the clutches of their occultic bondage."


William, I don't understand why it is a salvation issue. A christian can be occultly oppressed and still be saved. A person cannot receive the Baptism in the Holy Spirit because of occult oppression, but they are still saved. People need to have room to grow in faith and be taught about the effects of medical science, yoga, karate, Feng Shui, Halloween, Aromatheraphy, Accupuncture, Inner healing, Theophostics and many other deceptions that have infiltrated the church and has oppressed multiple of christians. They need to be taught how to get free and stay free. There have been alot of posts on this site that does just that.
Unfortunately there isn't alot of pastors out there who seem to be teaching the truths of Gods word. I wouldn't even call them deeper truths, just basic truths. Such as, the Lord said He would supply all our needs, give us peace, joy, trials, faith, deliverance, healing, persecution and so many other promises that is ours just for the believing and walking in obedience.





Are you saying that active involvement in occult activity isn't a salvation issue?

So we can dabble a little here and dabble a little there and while we might suffer for it in this life it will have no bearing on our eternal standing... Is that what you believe?

I disagree completely with the idea that one can willingly go to an occult practitioner and it not have a bearing upon his eternal salvation.

Blessings,
William


I want to believe!
Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8449 is a reply to message #8448 ] Thu, 27 October 2011 12:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sparkles  is currently offline sparkles
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"Are you saying that active involvement in occult activity isn't a salvation issue?

So we can dabble a little here and dabble a little there and while we might suffer for it in this life it will have no bearing on our eternal standing... Is that what you believe?

I disagree completely with the idea that one can willingly go to an occult practitioner and it not have a bearing upon his eternal salvation."

I guess what I was trying to say is: I don't believe a true christian will be kept out of heaven for possibly partaking in an occult activity if they did it ignorantly. If someone has light on a subject and believed it according to Gods word, and turns back, then it is up to the Lord what happens. Thankfully I am not the judge, jury and executioner. There are true believers in Jesus Christ who are willingly doing Yoga, which is an obvious occult activity, but if they die and have never renounced their participation in Yoga, I do believe they will be in heaven. In saying that, there may be rewards they will lose, but I don't believe they will lose their salvation.
But do we sin that grace may abound? Absolutely not!

If someone has light, and willingly goes to an occult practitioner, then I believe they are opening a door to occult oppression. Just because they don't seem to have picked anything up from that association, doesn't mean there isn't an open door that at the right time(or wrong time) will show.
And once they have started on the slippery slope in disobedience to God's word, we can only pray their eyes be opened to the truth of God's word and freedom. No one dabbles in sin and doesn't at some point pay the price.

Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8450 is a reply to message #8449 ] Thu, 27 October 2011 13:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sparkles  is currently offline sparkles
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I have a question: a friend of mine told me how her father in law, who is in an assisted care facility, was given a prescription that seemed to change his personality. He became very agressive and did things that weren't appropriate. If he continued these actions they would have to ask him to leave the facility. So his son went to the doctor and told him to take him off the medicine, which is said to cause this sort of behavior.
Would you call this a demon manifesting through him because of the drug he took or just a chemical reaction?
There are some very serious side effect to this drug, including possible suicide(which we know is a demon,) unusual changes in behavior(which can be demonic manifestations,)anxiety, insomnia, agressive behavior. All these we know to be manifestations of demons.
Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8451 is a reply to message #8173 ] Thu, 27 October 2011 15:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
wishing34  is currently offline wishing34
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Hi Sage,

you wrote :
>>>>Would you call this a demon manifesting through him because of the drug he took or just a chemical reaction?

In this specific case it sounds like more than just chem reactions to me.

-------------

One example case cannot establish that ALL drugs are occult.







Jman









Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8452 is a reply to message #8450 ] Thu, 27 October 2011 15:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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Sage wrote on Thu, 27 October 2011 13:32

I have a question: a friend of mine told me how her father in law, who is in an assisted care facility, was given a prescription that seemed to change his personality. He became very agressive and did things that weren't appropriate. If he continued these actions they would have to ask him to leave the facility. So his son went to the doctor and told him to take him off the medicine, which is said to cause this sort of behavior.
Would you call this a demon manifesting through him because of the drug he took or just a chemical reaction?
There are some very serious side effect to this drug, including possible suicide(which we know is a demon,) unusual changes in behavior(which can be demonic manifestations,)anxiety, insomnia, agressive behavior. All these we know to be manifestations of demons.


There's a lot we don't know about the physical world and we know even less about the spiritual world.

A quick answer would be yes, this is a demon, but it also could be that the man was possessed (in the good old KJV sense of the word!) and the drugs, by lowering the man's resistance, allowed the demon to manifest. Sickness itself can weaken a person to the point where a demon can manifest.

Satan doesn't play fair, he'll take advantage of a bump on the head, drugs, surgery, sins of the parents, pride, violence, etc.,etc.,etc.. He capitalizes on a person's weakness, or maybe it's a door they've opened, maybe a personality disorder, who knows? We are only safe as we rest under the wings of the Almighty!

Then again, it could be a reaction to chemicals. We really don't have an answer that covers everything, at times we just need discernment.

I've heard people attributing the constant crying of a baby to a demon -- could be -- but then again it might be a chemical reaction taking place in the diaper that is causing the discomfort!

In recent months there have been cases where someone after an accident or surgery (can't remember) woke up speaking with a foreign accent. No one seems to have an explanation. Could it be demonic?

Blessings,
William


I want to believe!
Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8459 is a reply to message #8186 ] Thu, 27 October 2011 20:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lesjude  is currently offline lesjude
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When our baby was born dead we had been "suspended" from our local body because the message of Jesus' absolute promise of healing was being changed and we did not agree. Many Christians in the community were praying something would happen to "teach us a lesson". There was 'just' me and the Holy Spirit to deal with the situation. I tell people I get more grace than most. Why? Because I ASK and wait till He comes. He ALWAYS does! Please carefully read Hebrews chapter 11, especially verses 17-19. If you do not want to train for these things then do not be concerned about "to him that overcomes". It will sometimes feel like you have been thrown into the deep end of the tank with hands and feet tied. However NOTHING can happen to you that Jesus does not allow. If it happens then you are ready, even if you do not feel like it. Will fear get all over you? YES! If one is not settled in his HEART on how much Jesus loves them fear will crush them.
I have no problem taking someone to the medical system if they ask to go. Otherwise I speak the word. Or shut up. You also should know it is the biggest idol in the nation, only rivaled by nationalism, which is also another religion.
What much of the reasoning I see here amounts to is Jesus is not really sovereign. Some have not settled the issue. What if this or what if that. No apostles or anyone with the an anointing. The church is in horrible shape. I will tell you from experience that He will isolate you from everyone and everything but His Holy Spirit. Ask anyone who has been a line infantryman. Isolation is the greatest cause of fear on the battlefield. One of our responsibilities as Christians is to exercise courage.
Jesus raised our daughter from the dead.

[Updated on: Thu, 27 October 2011 20:46]

Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8464 is a reply to message #8459 ] Thu, 27 October 2011 21:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
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lesjude wrote on Thu, 27 October 2011 20:45


What much of the reasoning I see here amounts to is Jesus is not really sovereign. Some have not settled the issue.


In my heart of hearts and in all humility I believe in SO many cases this is the crux of the matter. One can not exercise faith when in the midst of a trial when they haven't settled in their hearts that God is truely who He says He is and will do what He says He will do. Hobart Freeman regularly admonished and warned concerning this, to get it settled in our hearts. I have written several words of encouragement and exhortation concerning this very issue. We can't overcome ANYTHING if we aren't settled on the trustworthiness of what we believe.




"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8465 is a reply to message #8173 ] Thu, 27 October 2011 21:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
wishing34  is currently offline wishing34
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Hi lesjude,




Welcome to the thread

New eyeballs looking things over can only help.







Jman








Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8466 is a reply to message #8452 ] Fri, 28 October 2011 07:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lesjude  is currently offline lesjude
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Demons often get in through blood transfusions. One sister told us that after several blood transfusions her husband's personality changed drastically. Neither were saved at the time, but she received the truth years later. Jesus is still doing a work in her husband's heart. One change is this man, who was an active persecutor of our fellowship for years, invited my wife and I to spend time in their very nice summer home in the Thousand Islands.
Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8471 is a reply to message #8466 ] Fri, 28 October 2011 15:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
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I just saw a special report on prescription drug abuse among young mothers and it's effect on their newborn babies. The study focused on the state of Florida (statistics reportedly show that Florida is one of the worst states with this problem, to the point they're calling it an epidemic.)

In St. Petersburg, Florida they went into a hospital's newborn section where there were 80 infant babies requiring extensive care(in incubators), of the 80, 24 were going through withdrawal from addiction to prescription drugs their mothers were on and abusing while pregnant. Oxycotin was the most popular drug of choice.(but not the only one) Miami reported even worse statistics.

I'm not using this to argue the issue about drugs and their origin being occult, just found it to be of interest with this discussion going on here. I know that there are also a substainal number of infants brought into the world addicted to crack, heroin,and other 'illegal' drugs their mothers were addicted to during pregnancy.

It wasn't a pretty sight watching those infants suffering the pangs of withdrawal...and speaking of demons and oppression/possession, if they did a follow-up study of these children over the next 20 years, I can almost guarantee you that apart from spiritual intervention, most of these kids will suffer from all types of disorders ranging from rebellion to drug abuse themselves...Demons entering through the drugs? I believe it is.


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8472 is a reply to message #8471 ] Fri, 28 October 2011 18:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lesjude  is currently offline lesjude
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I have done quite a bit of deliverance and will tell you that there is a demon behind EVERY drug and usually the drug is named for them. Ask any health professional and they will tell you, if they are truthful, that there is NO drug that does not have harmful side effects and often causes the same symptoms it is supposed to 'cure'. Most of these drugs cure nothing but allow you to live with the condition, enrich the drug companies, and often die of the side effects that they do not tell you about. A group medical practice in a city near us had a lunch catered every week from one of the most expensive restaurants by the drug sales reps. I know because our bible study got the left overs every week and they were delicious.
What do you do if an unbelieving relative is in a nursing home and on drugs? Here is what Jesus showed us to do. First get mama out of there if at all possible. You should not need a revelation to do that. The best of them are pits who drug to control. We finally persuaded the rest of my wife's family to let us care for their mother in her own home. She was in an institution on 'comfort care' which means she was expected to die very shortly. She was an unmanifested saved Catholic who had severe dementia symptoms and heart problems for which she was on beta blockers and other drugs. We just ministered Jesus to her, loved on her and did some deliverance. Jesus had her drug free within months and she lived 2 more years. Anyone will tell you a person cannot just stop taking beta blockers, but Jesus....Her salvation was fought by the Catholic devils to the very end but they turned lose minutes before she died when Jesus showed up in the hospital room. She died with total peace. The nurse was totally amazed as he saw it happen. Fighting, snarling, and thrashing one minute and then she looked up and total peace!
Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8473 is a reply to message #8441 ] Fri, 28 October 2011 19:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lesjude  is currently offline lesjude
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The Bible is nearly totally negative about physicians and their means of curing. Jesus had more than ample opportunity to tell the "suffered many things of many physicians" what they were doing wrong and give them the miracle drug to get it right. Jesus speaks loudly by what he did NOT do. The principle is in what Jesus said in John 14:2 "...If it were not so I would have told you." This also applies for what He could have said and did not.
There were no physicians in Israel until (one of the worst things that God ever allowed to happen in Israel) better known as King Solomon married pharaoh's daughter, and she brought her physicians with her. Guess who began to use them? When the leadership does this it is not long until the led are on board!
Honestly, who cares what HEF said about medicine or doctors. If you can read and are willing to educate yourself it will not take long to figure out that medical science is NOT a science at all, but is just a false pagan religion with their high priests, temples, mysteries, temple prostitutes, blood sacrifices, occult based 'cures', training centers for the priests and lesser ministries, and more than enough perversion, drug use and filth to go around. In at least some medical schools they teach a course on the history and origins of medicine. They have no problem explaining its occult origins.
In the physical realm the medical system has all but bankrupted many states and corporations. About 50% of NYS's budget is for medicaid! What other 'business' could kill over 120,000 people a year in the US alone, by their own admission, and not be investigated? Not a religion?
Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8474 is a reply to message #8432 ] Fri, 28 October 2011 20:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
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james wrote on Wed, 26 October 2011 12:00

So here I am, in a thread that I'd really just as soon be a spectator in willing to converse about the issues. But you guys are going to have to provide the ammo...<grin...shrug...>


I trust you guys can appreciate a little lighthearted humor...In the midst of a serious subject.


I did NOT recruit Leslie as my hired-gun, but it don't look to me like he's running short on AMMO... Smile


I don't know him from Adam...


Leslie, check your Private Messages.


Hey Leslie, I put the check in the mail... Smile


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8476 is a reply to message #8173 ] Fri, 28 October 2011 21:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
wishing34  is currently offline wishing34
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Hi lesjude,

you wrote:

>>>> I have done quite a bit of deliverance and will tell you that there is a demon behind EVERY drug and usually the drug is named for them.

I think you are hitting upon a very common component in the theology or belief system of
a lot of people. I think you are saying that all drugs are a demon connection because
of what is learned ( usually from the demons themselves ) in deliverance sessions.


As for me personally I do not accept deliverance sessions as a source of theology.

( maybe someone else will say next week that drugs are Ok because a demon told them so )

( if we incorporate 40 years of demonic info into our beliefs then there is no limit – maybe
along the way someone thought a demon came from micro-waves, Nike shoes,
from anything and everything – one would need a database to list them all and the
believers would be placed under terrible duress to avoid all the open doors if
we accept all the demonic input into our theology)

---------------------

I am a bit eccentric around here. A long time ago I decided to define Christianity
as only the Bible.

I thereby set aside revelations such as the pharmakeia teaching that we have been discussing here.

I also set aside theology that came through deliverance sessions.






If others include into their theology things that I do not then naturally we will
come to different conclusions.


======================================

lesjude wrote:

>>>>> The Bible is nearly totally negative about physicians . . . etc , etc, etc


>>>> If you can read and are willing to educate yourself it will not take long to figure out that medical science is NOT a science at all, but is just a false pagan religion with their high priests, temples, mysteries, temple prostitutes, blood sacrifices, occult based 'cures', training centers for the priests and lesser ministries, and more than enough perversion, drug use and filth to go around. In at least some medical schools they teach a course on the history and origins of medicine. They have no problem explaining its occult origins.







What you are saying here has already been part of the give and take in this thread.

If you want to stand pat with your above stated opinion then that is of course
your option but the counter points have been made already in this thread if
you want to go back and read through and consider them.





================



Hi James,

As I said above I define Christianity differently than others.
As such I see no “new ammo” here.







Jman








Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8477 is a reply to message #8476 ] Fri, 28 October 2011 21:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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Yup, a lot of shotgun fire straight up in the air!

We've all heard the cliches and the statistics... shoot, I even agree with most of them, but pick up a rifle and aim at a couple of the valid points that have been proffered.

Medical science is involved in abortion too (or has that already been mentioned?) therefore all medical science worships at the feet of Molech. Com'on guys surely you can do better and at least answer some of the points without shooting off another roman-candle.


Blessings,
William


I want to believe!
Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8478 is a reply to message #8477 ] Fri, 28 October 2011 21:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
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Like I said, a little lighthearted humor...

I put down my weapons a long time ago...


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8479 is a reply to message #8476 ] Fri, 28 October 2011 22:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lesjude  is currently offline lesjude
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You are quite correct in your assertion that theology should NOT come from demons. All one has to do is look at he effects of drugs on society and it is obvious they are NOT from God. Drugs are now being found in the drinking water in major cities. Guess how they got there. If you can name just one drug that is not harmful to the body I will concede. Why in the world would Jesus 'give' His people anything like this? I will tell you. It is allowed for the same reason as the bill of divorce was, for the hardness of your hearts! Are we not joined as one flesh with Jesus as His bride? Which groom would give His bride a drug when He died to give her health and healing? Do you understand the grounds for divorce? Is not Jesus' bride to trust Him for all He has provided? Do you not realize that to seek the unregenerate medical system regardless if it is seen by anyone as occult or not is adultery?
Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8480 is a reply to message #8478 ] Fri, 28 October 2011 22:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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Just messing around with you James with a little humor of my own.

After reading one of the notes I started humming this: (I don't believe I've ever heard the other verses so I'll include them.)

Oh, say, can you see, by the dawn's early light,
What so proudly we hail'd at the twilight's last gleaming?
Whose broad stripes and bright stars, thro' the perilous fight,
O'er the ramparts we watch'd, were so gallantly streaming?
And the rockets' red glare, the bombs bursting in air,
Gave proof thro' the night that our flag was still there.
O say, does that star-spangled banner yet wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave?

On the shore dimly seen thro' the mists of the deep,
Where the foe's haughty host in dread silence reposes,
What is that which the breeze, o'er the towering steep,
As it fitfully blows, half conceals, half discloses?
Now it catches the gleam of the morning's first beam,
In full glory reflected, now shines on the stream:
'Tis the star-spangled banner: O, long may it wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave!

And where is that band who so vauntingly swore
That the havoc of war and the battle's confusion
A home and a country should leave us no more?
Their blood has wash'd out their foul footsteps' pollution.
No refuge could save the hireling and slave
From the terror of flight or the gloom of the grave:
And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave.

O, thus be it ever when freemen shall stand,
Between their lov'd homes and the war's desolation;
Blest with vict'ry and peace, may the heav'n-rescued land
Praise the Pow'r that hath made and preserv'd us a nation!
Then conquer we must, when our cause is just,
And this be our motto: "In God is our trust"
And the star-spangled banner in triumph shall wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave!


I want to believe!
Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8481 is a reply to message #8480 ] Fri, 28 October 2011 22:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
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I usually turn the sound off when they start that, but tonight at the start of world series game I listened because I wanted to hear Cris Daughtry's version.<boo...>


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8482 is a reply to message #8480 ] Fri, 28 October 2011 22:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lesjude  is currently offline lesjude
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Surely you jest! Patriotism/nationalism is just another false pagan religion. Is there anyone in here that believes the US is a Christian nation?
Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8483 is a reply to message #8482 ] Fri, 28 October 2011 22:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
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Yes Leslie, we were jesting. If you'd take a little time to read and get to know us a bit you'll understand where each is coming from a little better.

In the "Christian Ethics" section there's a thread on 'Principles of non-resistance vs our rights' and I believe it includes some thoughts on patriotism.(post #5689) You find I'm about the most un-patriotic person you'll run across. Rolling Eyes

Speaking for myself only, NO, I don't think America is a christian nation.

[Updated on: Fri, 28 October 2011 22:46]


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8484 is a reply to message #8483 ] Fri, 28 October 2011 22:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lesjude  is currently offline lesjude
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You are correct. I was hasty. Several attempts were made to fire me from my HS teaching position over the pledge of allegiance. I eventually quit when Jesus told me that the school system was turning the hearts of the students away from their parents and Him. And I was taking the wages of a harlot. Within the last few years I have come to know that this was an extreme understatement. I taught US and European history. There is little more than lies and half truths in the text books. I got a lot of grace for 22 years!
Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8485 is a reply to message #8479 ] Fri, 28 October 2011 22:34 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
william  is currently offline william
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I wonder if it is possible to quote the whole thread in a post... <sigh>

Les, you should go back over the thread and try to pick up some loose ends that have been left hanging.

I remember one time I was involved in a thread where all of the participants had this same old straw-man that they kept trying to kill (now don't get me wrong, they killed the poor bugger!) but the only problem was that they would never address the subject of the discussion. They had stereotyped the poor guy who was trying to give some great (if I do say so myself!) insight, and even when he repeatedly told them exactly what he wasn't saying they spent all of their time addressing that very straw-man.

Hopefully this isn't another one of those situations... Jman isn't the straw-man you've pegged him to be. I'm not that straw-man either. GWB is certainly not a man at all!!! We all are a part of the body of Christ and we all want to serve him with all of our hearts.

We have an issue here that has plagued people in our circles for a long time. If you don't see the importance of that issue, fine. But at least give the old straw-man a rest... if you don't he's going to die and he'll probably die in the place where people go to die -- that old temple of doom that can lay claim to having more deaths than anywhere else on the face of the earth -- and yes, that will be one more that you can add to the 90% that already die in hospitals. (You are aware of the fact that hospitals are where most people go right before they die, right?)*

William


*My little attempt at humor...


I want to believe!
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