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Lamentations [message #7948] Mon, 20 June 2011 16:48 Go to next message
Mark L  is currently offline Mark L
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I wasn't sure where to put this so here it is. Would you believe in almost 40 yrs as a charismatic Xian most of that time in the faith message. I don't think I have ever read Lamentations. To me it was one of those boring dusty type passages like the genealogies or the dietary laws. Well this week I got that far in my bible reading. Finished Jeremiah and started Lam.

I was utterly captivated. I always knew it was a poem but I never realized the depth to it. Poetry is designed to speak to the heart. Like song.

What a deep passage. A old man speaking out of the depths of his heart in anguish over the beloved city. Now in ruins. Its young men slaughtered women ravished and all in captivity.

So much of our xian life is a united effort . The Holy Spirit and us together. Like tongues. This poem is the same. God lamenting through the gift of the prophet. The prophet crying out of the depths of his heart. God and man together in deep anguish.

As I said I was utterly captivated.

Lamentations 1

1How doth the city sit solitary, that was full of people! how is she become as a widow! she that was great among the nations, and princess among the provinces, how is she become tributary!

2She weepeth sore in the night, and her tears are on her cheeks: among all her lovers she hath none to comfort her: all her friends have dealt treacherously with her, they are become her enemies.

3Judah is gone into captivity because of affliction, and because of great servitude: she dwelleth among the heathen, she findeth no rest: all her persecutors overtook her between the straits.

4The ways of Zion do mourn, because none come to the solemn feasts: all her gates are desolate: her priests sigh, her virgins are afflicted, and she is in bitterness.

5Her adversaries are the chief, her enemies prosper; for the LORD hath afflicted her for the multitude of her transgressions: her children are gone into captivity before the enemy.

6And from the daughter of Zion all her beauty is departed: her princes are become like harts that find no pasture, and they are gone without strength before the pursuer.

Re: Lamentations [message #7949 is a reply to message #7948 ] Mon, 20 June 2011 16:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mark L  is currently offline Mark L
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Here is a famous picture by Rembrandt of the above. Jeremiah crying and Jerusalem burning in the background.

http://static.artbible.info/large/jeremia_jeruzalem.jpg

For whatever it is worth from what I can tell Rembrandt was a born again christian

[Updated on: Mon, 20 June 2011 16:50]

Re: Lamentations [message #7950 is a reply to message #7949 ] Mon, 20 June 2011 19:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
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I don't know if you're planning to go through all 5 chapters of Lamentations or not (and I don't want to derail your thread), but there's a few verses that I've always held extra close to my heart. After Jeremiah had lamented over Jerusalem and all his past woes, he encouraged himself with the memory of God's faithfulness. Quite often I remind The Lord of verses 22 and 23 of chapter 3, and take hope in that wonderful revelation that indeed His mercies are new every morning and GREAT is His faithfulness...Thank YOU Jesus.


Lamentations 3:21-26

V21 "This I recall to my mind, therefore have I hope."

V22 "It is of The LORD'S mercies that we are not consumed, because His compassions fail not."

V23 "They are new every morning: great is Thy faithfulness."

V24 "The LORD is my portion, saith my soul; therefore will I hope in Him."

V25 "The LORD is good unto them that wait for Him, to the soul that seeketh Him."

V26 "It is good that a man should both hope and quietly wait for the salvation of The LORD."

[Updated on: Tue, 21 June 2011 05:08]


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: Lamentations [message #7953 is a reply to message #7950 ] Tue, 21 June 2011 08:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mark L  is currently offline Mark L
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Thats good James. It reminds me of teaching I got many years ago that even in the midst of judgement or in this case Lamentation over judgement God will always bring hope. I heard a series of prophesies many yrs ago concerning end times and my teacher told me it wasn't of the Lord. The reason being there wasn't any hope with the judgement being spoken of to come. For Gods people there is always hope and a looking up.
Re: Lamentations [message #7954 is a reply to message #7953 ] Wed, 22 June 2011 13:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
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Hardbones wrote on Tue, 21 June 2011 08:17

For Gods people there is always hope and a looking up.



Amen

"For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope." ~ Romans 15:4

"Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ." ~Titus 2:13


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: Lamentations [message #7970 is a reply to message #7953 ] Tue, 28 June 2011 10:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
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Hardbones wrote on Tue, 21 June 2011 08:17

For Gods people there is always hope and a looking up.



Mark, that simple true statement has been bouncing around in my mind for the last several days. One can look under 'Hope' in any study guide Bible or concordance and read 100's of scripture verses which speak of hope, and they bring forth 'hope' and encouragement. Even Israel with all their rebellion and punishment are given promises in which to hope. I was reading in Jeremiah 29 where the children of Israel were taken captive from Jerusalem into Babylon for disobedience ...YET God gives them hope even in the midst of their bondage.

"For thus saith The LORD, That after seventy years be accomplished at Babylon I will visit you, and perform my good Word toward you, in causing you to return to this place.

For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith The LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end." ~Jeremiah 29:10-11

Here is an example of true prophecy from God of judgment and the hope that was included within it.


I 'hope' this will be an encouragement to each one reading to see how when we share with one another, what The Lord puts on our hearts, we never know how The Holy Spirit will use it to minister to the reader. Sometimes the most simple (in our own understanding) can be most profound to another when The Holy Spirit is doing the teaching.

Thank You Jesus for daily providing both our physical as well as spiritual BREAD ...John 6:35


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: Lamentations [message #7971 is a reply to message #7970 ] Tue, 28 June 2011 13:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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You are right, James. It should be a great source of comfort to see how God continually reaches out to the Israelites even as they are in the midst of judgment. Judgment, if heeded, was in reality chastisement and we know that those without chastisement are not really His children.


Blessings,

William




I want to believe!
Re: Lamentations [message #7972 is a reply to message #7971 ] Tue, 28 June 2011 16:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
GWB  is currently offline GWB
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I was going back and forth the other day about what I was suppose to do in a situation. I fell asleep still not knowing.

I woke up the next day to open my OO newspaper, and there was the headline "How to Know God's Will!" Know that I wanted to do a happy dance right then and there!

I know that we all put things on OO as a shot in the dark sometimes, but He knows. With the amount of hits on some of the topics, I can't help but believe that He is using it to minister to many others who don't post.

BTW......I thought judgment was only for sinners who did not repent and chastening was for believers; spankings. So, chastening is a form of judgment against God's grace for believers?

Anyone is welcome to answer.


Shalom,

GWB

"Be still and know that I am God."
Re: Lamentations [message #7973 is a reply to message #7972 ] Tue, 28 June 2011 17:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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Well, what was it for israel? Those who didn't heed or believe, was it judgement or chastisement?

Blessings,
William


I want to believe!
Re: Lamentations [message #7974 is a reply to message #7973 ] Tue, 28 June 2011 17:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
GWB  is currently offline GWB
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Well...when you put it that way, I see that judgment as a form of chastening. But I will continue to think on it! Laughing


Shalom,

GWB

"Be still and know that I am God."
Re: Lamentations [message #7975 is a reply to message #7972 ] Tue, 28 June 2011 17:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
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GWB wrote on Tue, 28 June 2011 16:59



BTW......I thought judgment was only for sinners who did not repent and chastening was for believers; spankings. So, chastening is a form of judgment against God's grace for believers?

Anyone is welcome to answer.




I'm thinking that in the case of Christians after The Cross, chastisement would be the correct word...but many times in the OT the word judgement was used and could be interpreted to mean correction or chastisement.


"O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.

O LORD, correct me, but with judgment; not in Thine anger, lest Thou bring me to nothing." Jeremiah 10:23-24



"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: Lamentations [message #7976 is a reply to message #7975 ] Tue, 28 June 2011 21:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
GWB  is currently offline GWB
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Christology: The Doctrine of Jesus Christ

3. Judgment - repeated divine chastisements for idolatry, culminated in the overthrow of the kingdom and the captivity of the Jews. The exile had two principal effects.

a. Religious b. Civil (Bancroft Theology, pg. 96.)

Also, in Bancroft, it said that we will all stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ.

Hmmm...after all of these years, I thought there was a difference. Shocked You learn something everyday! Very Happy


Shalom,

GWB

"Be still and know that I am God."
Re: Lamentations [message #7977 is a reply to message #7976 ] Wed, 29 June 2011 06:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
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GWB wrote on Tue, 28 June 2011 21:16



Also, in Bancroft, it said that we will all stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ.


'Bancroft' got that from...God's Word

II Corinthians 5:10

"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad."


I think God's judgment can be seen as punishment, correction/chastisement, wrath; as well as mercy, rewards, blessings... regardless, His judgments are just and righteous, and His longsufferings and warnings before executing judgment reflects this.


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: Lamentations [message #7978 is a reply to message #7976 ] Wed, 29 June 2011 09:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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The key words in my note are 'if heeded...'

Quote:

Judgment, if heeded, was in reality chastisement and we know that those without chastisement are not really His children.


To those who don't believe and turn from their sin it is simply judgment. Judgment, as in 'God's judgment was poured out', in my mind is simply punishment for wrong doing. When punishment results in correction it seems to be better categorized as chastisement. So to a believer it would be chastisement; to an unbeliever --judgment.



But I'll yield to a more researched answer!



Blessings,

William

[Updated on: Wed, 29 June 2011 09:54]


I want to believe!
Re: Lamentations [message #7982 is a reply to message #7978 ] Thu, 30 June 2011 06:16 Go to previous message
james  is currently offline james
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This isn't a 'researched answer' nor am I trying to hammer home a point,(I think we 'get it' concerning the different ways the word judgment is used and it's different meanings). I have been reading a good bit in Jeremiah lately and just keep seeing scriptures that continue to reveal just what we've been talking about, and thought I'd share them.

I gave a couple of references from Jeremiah (chapters 10 & 29) and here is another from chapter 30, here God is telling Jeremiah to write down in a book His promise to restore Israel and Judah...yet they were judged/corrected/chastened because of their sins of rebellion and iniquity.(don't ask how I got from Lamentations back to Jeremiah...but at least they're both about the same man, Jeremiah.) Rolling Eyes

Jeremiah 30:11&14

"For I am with thee, saith The LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished."

"All thy lovers have forgotten thee; they seek thee not; for I have wounded thee with the wound of an enemy, with the chastisement of a cruel one, for the multitude of thine iniquity; because thy sins were increased."


Also, as Mark and I were talking earlier about hope, verse 17-22 voices that promise of restoration in which they had hope.

V17 "For I will restore health unto thee, and I will heal thee of thy wounds, saith The LORD..."

V22 "And ye shall be my people, and I will be your GOD."


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
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