Deeper Life Women
Home » Discussion Area » Rant/Rave » Hobart Freeman, A man of God or a deceiver?
Hobart Freeman, A man of God or a deceiver? [message #2301] Tue, 08 July 2008 07:32 Go to next message
grandom  is currently offline grandom
Messages: 404
Registered: October 2007
Senior Member
First off let me say that I am so thank full that the Lord Jesus Christ chose me before the foundations of the world.I learned that from HEF (predestination and election).

Secondly That I had a perfect sinless lamb of God die for my sins, not a saviour that became a wretched sinner and died spiritually. (JDS) heresy that HEF taught when no one else probably even tumbled to the fact that it was a heresy and is still being propagated today.

Thirdly that I have a heavenly shepherd and I don't need nor desire a man to be my covering. HEF also taught me that.(Shepherdship)


I could go on and on and may add to the list in future postings but I have to admit that I couldn't come up with anything on the deception side of the question. I hate using Dr Freemans initials but understand that brevity some times dictates that although my posts are seldom very long. His teachings are timeless as I from time to time listen to old tapes and since they are the word of almighty God they are relevant today. Is 30:21 says
This is the way walk ye in it. I believe he taught the pure word and for whatever reason there has been so many apparent problems with ex faers is that quite possibly we didn't walk in the way.

I`m sure there will be some posts about the deceptions of Hef as there as there already has been in some posts and I find it interesting no I take that back,appaling that people can find deceptions with Hef but find nothing wrong with Todd Bentley. I can only echo the word. "MY sheep hear MY VOICE.
Re: Hobart Freeman, A man of God or a deceiver? [message #2368 is a reply to message #2301 ] Mon, 14 July 2008 13:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Michael The Disciple  is currently offline Michael The Disciple
Messages: 166
Registered: September 2007
Location: Somerset Ky
Senior Member
I think Bro. Freeman was greatly used of the Lord in this manner. Those who did not believe in the gifts of the Spirit and deeper life were drawn to his message.

During the time I was visiting Faith Assembly (1981-1984) and receiving the tapes no other Church was more interesting to me. I think however he stopped short of coming to the full doctrine of the Apostles.

When he stopped moving forward with the word the annointing was gradually withdrawn. IMO.

[Updated on: Mon, 14 July 2008 13:34]

Re: Hobart Freeman, A man of God or a deceiver? [message #2585 is a reply to message #2301 ] Fri, 01 August 2008 12:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jisamazed  is currently offline jisamazed
Messages: 170
Registered: January 2008
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Senior Member
grandom wrote on Tue, 08 July 2008 07:32

First off let me say that I am so thank full that the Lord Jesus Christ chose me before the foundations of the world.I learned that from HEF (predestination and election).

Secondly That I had a perfect sinless lamb of God die for my sins, not a saviour that became a wretched sinner and died spiritually. (JDS) heresy that HEF taught when no one else probably even tumbled to the fact that it was a heresy and is still being propagated today.

Thirdly that I have a heavenly shepherd and I don't need nor desire a man to be my covering. HEF also taught me that.(Shepherdship)


I could go on and on and may add to the list in future postings but I have to admit that I couldn't come up with anything on the deception side of the question. I hate using Dr Freemans initials but understand that brevity some times dictates that although my posts are seldom very long. His teachings are timeless as I from time to time listen to old tapes and since they are the word of almighty God they are relevant today. Is 30:21 says
This is the way walk ye in it. I believe he taught the pure word and for whatever reason there has been so many apparent problems with ex faers is that quite possibly we didn't walk in the way.

I`m sure there will be some posts about the deceptions of Hef as there as there already has been in some posts and I find it interesting no I take that back,appaling that people can find deceptions with Hef but find nothing wrong with Todd Bentley. I can only echo the word. "MY sheep hear MY VOICE.



Although we are addressing HEF's problems and errors in other posts, I just want to state that I believe that HEF started out as a genuine man of God, but became deceived and a deceiver due to pride, isolation and imbalanced teaching. It was so gradual that many people did not notice it, and some still do not discern it to this day. Even in the 1960's, when he was one of the most important teachers in the charismatic movement, there were some seeds of pride and isolation which grew over time. I've expressed my perception of how it got that way in "The Great Experiment" thread, so I'll not duplicate that here.

As Mr. Evans has pointed out, you will know them by their fruits. If we look at the legacy of Faith Assembly and the churches associated with it, we will see a train wreck of church splits, severe legalism, harshness, poor leadership and confusion. Many of those churches don't exist today. The fruit of HEF's legacy does not look good. For many who were damaged by him or his underlings, the positives of good theology and such do not make up for the havoc that was wreaked in their lives.

Regarding HEF and Todd: I simply stated that I am taking my time to gather information so that I don't make a premature judgement on him. It took me 12 years to arrive at my conclusions about HEF. I would love to have more time to research Todd, but I have to prioritize the use of my time. I have already expressed some initial concerns and affirmations regarding him.


Amazed smitten astonished stunned floored blown away astounded shocked flabbergasted surprised wonderfully devastated awed shattered overwhelmed incredulous speechless sense of wonder at the love of God.
Re: Hobart Freeman, A man of God or a deceiver? [message #2589 is a reply to message #2585 ] Fri, 01 August 2008 13:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
grandom  is currently offline grandom
Messages: 404
Registered: October 2007
Senior Member


I find it interesting jisamazed that in your bio you state that you spent 12 years under The Grand Rapids teaching and have much to be thankful for and yet you maintain that HEF`s teachings are rift with error and deception. That kind of confuses me.

You also state that you belong to a "well balanced charismatic church" in Grand Rapids. I guess I would like to know what well balanced means. Does it mean that you and the church have to take many years to determine if people like Todd Bentley are in error or Will it take you many years to find out that maybe your current church is also rift with error? I dont know. I`m just asking. I seem to have a problem finding "well balanced" any kind of church charismatic or not so a definition on well balanced may help me.
Re: Hobart Freeman, A man of God or a deceiver? [message #2615 is a reply to message #2589 ] Mon, 04 August 2008 12:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jisamazed  is currently offline jisamazed
Messages: 170
Registered: January 2008
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Senior Member
HEF avoided some charismatic and non-charismatic errors and imbalances. But in the process he came up with some imbalances of his own.

Balances:

grasping both God's sovereignty and man's responsibility at the same time (predestination and human will)

teaching both the prayer of faith and trials at the same time, a combination almost unheard of outside of Pentecostal circles

a combination of scholarly approach to the word of God and spirit-filled living and the gifts of the Spirit

Imbalances:

Regarding medical science:
"Take yourself through deliverance if you ever walked into a doctor's office."

"You might even lose your salvation if you go to the arm of the flesh (access medical science)..."

Regarding worshipping faith as an end in itself:
"If you claim an 83 Cadillac and buy an 82, it's unbelief."

"Of course you should have faith in your faith."

Regarding isolation from other believers:
"I don't know of any place that teaches the word nowadays, except Faith Assembly and a few others..."

Regarding misuse of church discipline:
"He told me, the pastor, I needed deliverance. Pray for his salvation."

The list goes on, but my lunch break is over.

My church has embraced the same balances listed above, but we don't have anything to do with the imbalances. That is what I'm talking about.

If Todd Bentley's ministry was having a direct effect on my church I would have more urgency to do my research. But, frankly, it's just not that important right now. There's other weird stuff out there that we have to deal with. I don't care what others think. I'm going to take my time. I've already expressed my perceptions thus far.


Amazed smitten astonished stunned floored blown away astounded shocked flabbergasted surprised wonderfully devastated awed shattered overwhelmed incredulous speechless sense of wonder at the love of God.
Re: Hobart Freeman, A man of God or a deceiver? [message #2616 is a reply to message #2615 ] Mon, 04 August 2008 12:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
grandom  is currently offline grandom
Messages: 404
Registered: October 2007
Senior Member
Forgive me for not doing the proper quote thingy but i have a very tricky mouse that sometimes makes that extremely difficult.

You said"You might even lose your salvation if you go to the arm of the flesh (access medical science)..." Quoting HEF. I must confess I did not hear every message preached by HEF, and I dont recall him saying that. I have asked myself that same question. Will I lose my salvation if I trust in the arm of the flesh for healing? The reason I have asked myself that question is this. If salvation is provided for at calvary and it is,and healing is provided at calvary and it is, How can we choose which one to believe? We view the front side of the cross and see His shed blood but we fail to view the back side of the cross to see His stripes which His word says we are healed.Al through out the word the Lord asks us to trust Him, and the consequences of not trusting Him.All that He suffered on the cross do we not in some way say thanks for salvation but I cant trust you for healing?I must confess with much pondering I dont know the answer. I do believe that the healing of our bodies has to be revealed to us by the Holy Spirit just like Jn 3:16 had to be revealed to us that we are saved, however the word is quite plain to me.There are conditions that have to be met for healing but those same conditions apply to salvation. I going to continue to trust the shed blood of Christ. I do believe I heard Hef say if you dont have faith you should go to the Dr. and I dont dispute that but not trusting the Word Of God once its revealed to us is very sinful IMO. Wait I think the word says what is not faith is sin. Maybe it`s not just my opinion.

Trust and obey.
Re: Hobart Freeman, A man of God or a deceiver? [message #2617 is a reply to message #2615 ] Mon, 04 August 2008 13:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
grandom  is currently offline grandom
Messages: 404
Registered: October 2007
Senior Member
I would like to address another quote from your previous message.
This was supposed to be an imbalance of HEF.

"I don't know of any place that teaches the word nowadays, except Faith Assembly and a few others..."
I recently heard David Wilkerson make a similar statement. His was that it is almost impossible to find the Word taught in any churches in America. Oh sure you can find little sermonets by shallow shepherds and I know what HEF meant. He meant the Whole gospel not just the love boat version I have heard mentioned here before. So does that make David Wilkerson a deceiver also?. I think what it makes him is an honest appraiser of what this modern day church is. What`s that verse about tickling their ears. Lets not preach about sin or heaven forbid healing.I think I also read some where about a famine of the Word in the land. I believe HEF had that one right.

May I ask one question that maybe you addressed and I missed it.

Of what value is it to denegrate the ministry of HEF?
Re: Hobart Freeman, A man of God or a deceiver? [message #2618 is a reply to message #2301 ] Mon, 04 August 2008 13:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Michael The Disciple  is currently offline Michael The Disciple
Messages: 166
Registered: September 2007
Location: Somerset Ky
Senior Member

Quote:

Of what value is it to denegrate the ministry of HEF?


There is only value in this. Take what he said and compare it to the word. If something he said was true great. If something he said is falling short or going to far find the real revelation between the written word and the Holy Spirit.

There is life in Jesus.
Re: Hobart Freeman, A man of God or a deceiver? [message #2621 is a reply to message #2616 ] Mon, 04 August 2008 15:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
Messages: 1926
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL
Senior Member
Preach it brother Grandom, looks like somebody done stirred up the anointing there.

We all at one time or another like to use a verse from The Word to make our statements righteous, like God told us to use it to prove our point, without showing the context of what's being said or taught. So I thought I'd read the chapter before quoting Paul in his admonition to Timothy concerning stirring up the gift of God that's within him. And how I believe it to be profitable unto us and for us today.
Paul is encouraging Timothy to stir up the gift of God in verse 6 of chapter 1 of the second epistle written unto Timothy. In verse 7 he reminds him that God didn't give us a spirit of fear, but of power, love, and a sound mind. Verse 8 he tells Timothy not to be ashamed of the testimony of Jesus. In verse 13 Paul says to hold fast the form of sound words and in verse 14 he tells him to keep that good thing which was committed unto him.

My point? I believe that same admonition is unto us, today, in these times we live, N-O-W... To allow The Holy Spirit to use us for the edifing of the saints; to point out the sin and lukewarmness of the so called church of today; to be ready to give an answer to any man of the hope that lies within us, Jesus Christ, the only name given under heaven whereby we might be saved. I am persuaded that The Word that was delivered 25-30 years ago unto us by Bro. Freeman was sound and good and was and still is, the WORDS of life. And like others have said, I don't have all the answers for what's happened then and the time in between; but I believe with all my heart that FAITH is the key to finding that answer. F-A-I-T-H, FORSAKING ALL, I TRUST HIM. It's the forsaking, the dying to self, the total obedience; that's the hurdle we must get over to position ourselves on the wheel (potters')in order to be made in to a vessel of use by The Master, Jesus The Christ.

My prayer for the true church of Jesus Christ is, that when He returns, HE WILL FIND FAITH IN US, because if we have 'real' faith, we'll also have 'real' love and the 'real' anointing of The Holy Spirit, and we'll walk in humility, yet in power, as vessels yeilded totally unto HIM.


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: Hobart Freeman, A man of God or a deceiver? [message #2625 is a reply to message #2621 ] Mon, 04 August 2008 19:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
Messages: 1926
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL
Senior Member
Hombre,

You raise questions that I can't answer, though I would that I could, yet it's not that simple. We must work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. Every man must be persuaded in their own hearts. I DO, strongly believe that if we are not willing to say,'...though He slay me, yet will I trust Him..' an act accordingly if He so decides to test us to see if it's in our hearts, then maybe not a loss of our salvation(although what assurance would we have) but I can't see one being in any end-time move of God, certainly not an 'overcomer'.

I speak as one who thought there were bibical principles and convictions settled in my heart for as long as 25 years(DEVINE HEALING), yet after seeing Him heal and deliver me for 25+ yrs. without the aid of either doctors or medicines, I chose to go to a doctor 2 yrs.ago when I went through a sickness. My excuse, I make none, I repented and I say, ...I will trust Him... Btw, after thousands of dollars(another thing, I don't put my trust in insurance companies, except my autos, a requirement of the state of Alabama)and many sleepless night and much experimentation, without any positive results or healing, I repented and sought the Lord and in His mercy He restored my health, physically and mentally.

That certainly is not the testimony I would have mapped out in advance years ago, but it did allow me to see where I'm at and see that maybe spiritual pride had crept in and it had became more of a works mentality than faith in my savior to do exactly what His word says...'and with HIS stripes we are healed.' Isaiah 53:5 'by whose stripes ye were healed.' I Peter 2:24 Therefore due to sin I can't say it was a trial, so it was chastisement, but what sayeth the scriptures? Whom He loveth, He chasteneth. Heb. 12:6 So I rejoice that He dealt with me, showing me His love and mercy and longsuffering.

Does this make me special? No more special that any other person Jesus came and suffered and died for. Why does God allow one(me) to recover and another seemingly acting on the same belief system in Jesus to die? I don't know. But my confession is this; 'though He slay me, yet will I trust Him.' And if this is only words and not grounded in my heart, I trust Him in His mercy and love, to show me and grant me the grace to get it into my heart.


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: Hobart Freeman, A man of God or a deceiver? [message #2626 is a reply to message #2625 ] Tue, 05 August 2008 07:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
grandom  is currently offline grandom
Messages: 404
Registered: October 2007
Senior Member
I didn't know that I was preaching so I looked up the word preach in the Greek and among other things it means to proclaim. So I plead guilty as charged. I will proclaim what is in my heart. Your a pretty fair country preacher yourself brother James.

In Acts 8 Philip was led by the Spirit to an Ethiopia eunuch who was reading from Isaiah. In verse 30 he ask this question. Understandest thou what thou readest? V31 He answered How can I except some man should guide me?

The Lord in His infinite wisdom granted such a man to us by the name of Hobart Freeman some years back.I wont go into all the teachings he gave us, but the one that divides separates and causes the most consternation is Divine healing. I don't know what the number of people was who attended Fa thru the years or were taught thru the satellite churches but to my despair there are only seemingly a few who believe it as HEF taught it and the way I believe the Bible teaches it. Scripture says many are called few are chosen. Does that apply here?

I have heard it asked "how can HEF`s death give Glory to God"? I say how can it not. Like you brother James he said "though he slay me yet shall I trust him". Hef taught us how to live in faith and he taught us how to die in faith. Is his death trusting in Jesus any less Glorifying then a Martyr who will not deny Christ and is slaughtered? I believe Jesus said "Well done my good and faithful servant". HEF always said I want Jesus to say to me "you believed for to much".

Our ways are not His ways. Our finite minds are so corrupted by sin that we cant comprehend the ways of God. Why do we want to prolong our days in this wretched rotting dyeing world? I`m with Paul. I would rather to be with the Lord but first we must complete what he has given us to do.

Finally cant you just hear the serpent. "Yeah hath God said I will heal all your diseases. Surely He doesn't mean to trust Him only. He has provided medical science and given them the gifts to help him out"

Trust and obey!

Re: Hobart Freeman, A man of God or a deceiver? [message #2627 is a reply to message #2626 ] Tue, 05 August 2008 09:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
Messages: 1926
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL
Senior Member
Grandom wrote,

"Scripture says many are called few are chosen. Does that apply here?"

I hope it doesn't apply here(here, meaning to us on this forum). I want to believe that most of us are seeking for more of God, not how to be free from Him and His 'narrow path'. I want to believe that many of us having tasted that The Lord is good, want to not only experience Him as before, but more so today(without the baggage we picked up along the way that tries to weight us down...bad baggage...Matt. 11:29-30 His yoke is easy and His burden is light.)

"WHAT IF"...God raised up a vessel to declare His Words TODAY, and the vessel spoke with an anointing and we all embraced this message as from The Lord and God confirmed it with signs and wonders and we walked in obedience to it. THEN...the vessel dies, does that make the message wrong, does that mean we missed it? Do we go looking for 'balance', acceptance into the religous system? That's what many have done, we've compromised, disobeyed,POINTED FINGERS AT THE MESSAGER...Is there any among us who didn't when hearing the 'faith message', the end time deeper life message, the call to holiness, SHOUT HALLELUJAH???

I'm just raising some more questions that maybe if we thought about it and examined ourselves as to why some things haven't manifested in our lives, the answers may lie within us. Maybe some need to repent and return to their FIRST LOVE, JESUS THE CHRIST, and climb back up on that cross He told us to get on 25-30 years ago...I got down, how bout you, my brethern in Christ? I'm not pointing fingers at anyone, I don't personally know anyone on this forum, everything being said is being said to me first and formost, as Bro Freeman has said, if the shoe fits, wear it...
If Jesus returned today, do we have the faith to reconized by HIM? Would He find faith here?

In Rev. at the end of each letter to the churches, God said through John, 'He that hath an ear..."
May we have hearing ears, open hearts, yeilded wills, and following feet...to press in to know Him.

If we confess to be called and chosen of God, how long are we going to roam around in this spritual desert? Are we here to be prepared as was Moses or are we here for our disobedience? FEW ARE CHOSEN, I believe the choice is ours, He's called, we must answer. Behold He stands at the door and knocks...

I believe the responsibility of being chosen lies on us, we must desire Him above all else.

Just what was on my heart this morning,

peace and love in Jesus


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: Hobart Freeman, A man of God or a deceiver? [message #2631 is a reply to message #2627 ] Tue, 05 August 2008 11:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
Messages: 1926
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL
Senior Member
I was just raising the question, trying to invoke answers, or at least cause us to think. If it's training that He has for us, great, no complaining;
but if it's due to our disobedience or hard heartedness, then I want to make straight the paths of my feet and quit going in circles.

Every time I think I see an oasis, it turns out to be a mirage.

What with the housing market as it is, I hope God doesn't ask you to put it on the market,
course if He did He'd work it out and provide a buyer. Want me to give you the number for U-Haul? Smile

I'm thinking Lakeland, Fl.; sure is nicer weather there. Plus the sands already there for the sandbox. Laughing

[Updated on: Tue, 05 August 2008 11:10]


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: Hobart Freeman, A man of God or a deceiver? [message #2634 is a reply to message #2626 ] Tue, 05 August 2008 11:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
NBF56  is currently offline NBF56
Messages: 51
Registered: February 2008
Location: Ohio
Member
Hombre wrote on Tue, 05 August 2008 11:18

....back when I was 16, I caught double pneumonia. That means both of my lungs were filling up with water...and I was destined to die. I was also unsaved, and my parents were not avid churchgoers. Penicillin stopped the advance of the sickness, and 10 years or so later, the Lord saved me.

...was it wrong that penicillin killed the bacteria that invaded my body?

...and why would God allow such and then save me?

...so then medical science CAN be efficacious.


Well said.

Hombre

Surely, it IS better to be healed of God, and it is better to walk in obedience and enjoy the blessings of divine health than to be stuck in a corner believing for a healing.


Very true.

Hombre

..and God surely does deliver us from things that could be devastating to us...just like the lightning strikes on the garage.

I think that the two ( medical science and Divine healing ) are obviously 2 distinctly separate things; however what is a band-aid, soap or an aloe vera plant?

..and what is medicine except an extension of those things?

..and where does one draw the line?

...does one draw the line when a natural substance becomes pressed into a tablet and packaged by a company?

..or does one eschew the natural substance altogether?

...and what was the purpose of God in creating things down here that have purposes other than being decorative?

...surely corn is not evil, and yet we are producing gasoline from it.

...is not this an unnatural use of the original intent of the corn?

....or is it?


In the beginning, man was told to subdue the earth and to have dominion over it. That would include all things in the earth. The wisdom to use existing things in new ways, and to develop new things from existing materials comes from God, IMHO, and He allows these things to come to pass as he Wills, and for His Purposes.

Hombre

IMO, we get ourselves into trouble when we legislate to others what is that good and perfect and acceptable will of God to them, without being able to walk in their shoes.

..holding a standard of healing from God as being the most excellent way is one thing, but using religion as a tool to bludgeon others with is not excellent.

..and just where is THAT line?


Wisdom, for sure. Exactly correct.

Hombre

....IMO, it is where leadership can no longer be involved enough personally with peoples lives to be able to recognize that not everyone is at the same level of faith, yet continues to push people to the point of self destruction through religious blindness, arrogance and/or negligence.

..all the preaching in the world and 24/7 Bible study is NOT going to produce faith overnight...or in a month...or maybe even in 20 years.

Faith is a LIFETIME of learning that is absolutely unique to the individual ...something that only GOD can work out in someone. To make blanket statements about 'what faith is' ( outside of Heb 11:1 ) is to yoke others to something that they may or may not be ready for.


Far too many were so yoked. The peer pressure at FA was tremendous. Everyone wanted to be seen as "overcomers", all the time. To the point where a code was invented to let people know what was really going on, without anyone actually saying the words and being accused of a negative confession. That in itself was bondage.

Hombre

I remember a fellow with a TREMENDOUS musical gift from God.

His music continues to bless us to this day. You know who I'm talking about. When he decided that it was time for him to give up his insulin and trust God for his healing, God didn't follow through with life and healing.

That is a FACT.


And a sad fact at that. It was totally needless. I can't speak for Carl as to why he chose to do that, but I'm sure that when he saw Jesus, Jesus asked him, "why did you do that?"

Hombre

It is furthermore a FACT that HEF himself denounced that action, saying that those on heavy medication cannot simply overnight throw away their medication and assume that God is going to reciprocate...HEF also admonished the entire assembly against such actions when that occurred.

...however, HEF himself was forced into the corner of his own making, and died of a rotten foot, rather than play the coward before all those who had likewise suffered. That I will give him.


Again, needless, INMHO. He could have used the opportunity to correct much that had gone wrong. It would have been humbling, and HEF might have lost a lot of the members, who just couldn't accept a perceived "reversal" of his stand on faith. But I believe it would have brought healing to many others, healing of their wounded spirits.

Hombre

I will also add that HEFs' death served a multitude of purposes, including but not limited to: Causing all of us to search our own hearts for the genuine article, or to find out whether we were just playing religion.

We'll have the answers to this eventually, even if it is only on the other side.

...but in the meantime, I refuse to disdain, discourage, degrade, stigmatize, disdain, condemn etc. those who either use/have used or will use medical science through my own arrogance and/or assumptions of Gods' will for anyone elses' life but my own.

....THAT my friends is difficult enough for me to follow, without taking on the responsibilities of someone elses' life.


Amen, bro.

Hombre

..and besides....who's to say who is a 'overcomer' and who is not?

...do we have a legitimate Biblical definition of such?

...I'd like to see that please.

Here's what I find:

Pauls says:
1. Overcome evil with good. Rom 12:21

John says:
1. Overcome the wicked one. 1 Jn 2 : 13-14
2. Our faith is the victory that overcomes the world. 1 Jn 5:4
3. ...then John says that he that BELIEVES that Jesus is the Son of God, overcomes the world. 1 Jn 5:5

Jesus doesn't define it at all, but gives promises to those who do.


It would seem to me that it is God's choice as to who is labeled as an "Overcomer", and nothing we can do say, or think will affect that choice, because He doesn't make that kind of choice on the basis of the person, but on the basis of His Own Will, the same as he does with the Elect. He does not choose the Elect based on foreseen faith, but on the counsel of His own Will.

Hombre

To me, it is a stretch to conclude that the use of medical science is tantamount to the denial of Christ, and constitutes an automatic dismissal from the status of 'overcomer' ( ...and then we have John urging us into more easy believe-ism similar to what he wrote in John 3:16 ).

One would get that conclusion from an assumption that medical science is evil and worldly, and is something to be avoided at all costs.

..well hey, the Amish think that autos are evil and wordly and still eschew them, so does that mean that anyone who uses one is going to hell?

..or are we all so worldly that we don't see that which the Amish do?


Yet the Amish will ride in cars, and use the amenities of the "English" when they need to. They just choose not to have them in their homes. In many ways, the Amish actually put many of the most pious FA members to shame, for their consistency in living by their beliefs.

Hombre

Did not medical science exist in the days that the NT was written?


Yes, it did. Paul counseled Timothy to take a little wine for his stomach. Sounds like medical advice to me.....

Hombre

..and why do we not see any letters from Paul that pinpoint that issue, and demand the removal of such persons from the assembly, or even ONE rebuke from Jesus about the use of such?

I do see Him however, commending people for their faith in His ability to heal.


That's because it wasn't a defining issue, the way it was at FA. It became a defining issue as Hobart and others constantly ratcheted up the level, meaning, and "proper" outworking of faith, to an impossibly high standard, that even HEF himself could not meet.

Hombre

In conclusion to todays ramble:

I am neither condemning nor condoning the use of medical science. Neither did Jesus. He just went about doing good.

..can we get to that point?


Personally, already there. And I agree with you, that's where it should be.
Re: Hobart Freeman, A man of God or a deceiver? [message #2635 is a reply to message #2617 ] Tue, 05 August 2008 12:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jisamazed  is currently offline jisamazed
Messages: 170
Registered: January 2008
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Senior Member
grandom wrote on Mon, 04 August 2008 13:25

I would like to address another quote from your previous message.
This was supposed to be an imbalance of HEF.

"I don't know of any place that teaches the word nowadays, except Faith Assembly and a few others..."
I recently heard David Wilkerson make a similar statement. His was that it is almost impossible to find the Word taught in any churches in America. Oh sure you can find little sermonets by shallow shepherds and I know what HEF meant. He meant the Whole gospel not just the love boat version I have heard mentioned here before. So does that make David Wilkerson a deceiver also?. I think what it makes him is an honest appraiser of what this modern day church is. What`s that verse about tickling their ears. Lets not preach about sin or heaven forbid healing.I think I also read some where about a famine of the Word in the land. I believe HEF had that one right.

May I ask one question that maybe you addressed and I missed it.

Of what value is it to denegrate the ministry of HEF?


I have no interest is denegrating or impugning HEF or Todd Bentley or anyone else. Scripture calls us to prove all things, hold fast to what is good, refrain from any of the bad (I Thes 5:18-22). He was speaking specifically of prophecies, but the same principle applies to teaching, IMO.

I believe that it is important to recognize HEF's errors and problems so that we don't make the same mistakes today. And forgive me for using a 70's term, but in some cases people need to "take themselves through deliverance" because they opened up a door to Satan's lies by believing some aspects of HEF. I just can't stand the thought of good, God-fearing Christians wallowing in fear for the rest of their lives, listening to tapes and calling it church, simply because they have never recognized HEF's problems. I know that I could not get completely free and move on until I renounced his ministry. I am still able to affirm the truth that he taught that was not tainted by his opinion.

That is my opinion, and it might make people mad, but none of us on this forum are afraid of sharing their opinion for fear of others, right?

Random question:
Hombre, do you any idea why Speedy Gonzales yells "Hombre, Hombre!" whenever he runs? It doesn't make sense to me.


Amazed smitten astonished stunned floored blown away astounded shocked flabbergasted surprised wonderfully devastated awed shattered overwhelmed incredulous speechless sense of wonder at the love of God.
Re: Hobart Freeman, A man of God or a deceiver? [message #2636 is a reply to message #2635 ] Tue, 05 August 2008 12:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
NBF56  is currently offline NBF56
Messages: 51
Registered: February 2008
Location: Ohio
Member
Quote:

Hombre, do you any idea why Speedy Gonzales yells "Hombre, Hombre!" whenever he runs? It doesn't make sense to me


Actually, what Speedy said was "聲dale! ℅ndale! ,rriba! ,rriba", which means, loosely translated, "Hurry up! Get up!"

NBF
Re: Hobart Freeman, A man of God or a deceiver? [message #2639 is a reply to message #2636 ] Tue, 05 August 2008 13:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william is currently online william
Messages: 1185
Registered: January 2006
Senior Member
Administrator
Hombre wrote on Tue, 05 August 2008 12:57

NBF56 wrote on Tue, 05 August 2008 12:35

Quote:

Hombre, do you any idea why Speedy Gonzales yells "Hombre, Hombre!" whenever he runs? It doesn't make sense to me


Actually, what Speedy said was "聲dale! ℅ndale! ,rriba! ,rriba", which means, loosely translated, "Hurry up! Get up!"

NBF


That is an affirmative. Now can anyone tell me why Wiley Coyote always used equipment from the 'Acme' company, even though it consistently failed?


While RR only trusted in divine providence!


I want to believe!
Re: Hobart Freeman, A man of God or a deceiver? [message #2642 is a reply to message #2639 ] Tue, 05 August 2008 20:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JWBTI  is currently offline JWBTI
Messages: 289
Registered: March 2007
Location: Ohio
Senior Member
Hombre wrote:
It seems as though sometimes it is difficult to see the forest for the trees.

...and IMO, that is what happens when we attach too much importance on the issue of divine healing.
............................................................ ............................................................ ........................................
Rons reply:

Tell that to my granddaughter, the doctors gave up for dead an is alive & well today.
Tell that to my wife after God healed her knees.
Tell that to the woman that was blind an now sees.
Tell that to my Dad that died at the hospital, an God restored life to him when the doctors gave up.
Tell that to the woman that hadn't spoken in 20 yrs because of an injury suffered in a car crash....she now speaks !
Tell that to the cluster headaches I suffered for years, that med science couldn't cure or even kill the pain & suffering.
Tell that to my fahter-in-law that God cured of cancer.

Tell these people that we attach to much importance to the issue of Divine Healing.....
............................................................ ............................................................ .......................................

Hombre wrote:

We need a balance here, certainly God does care, and I don't want to discourage anyone from acting on their faith, but we do

need to accept the fact that many have died doing what they believed or thought was faith, when in fact it wasn't.
............................................................ ............................................................ ................................................

Rons reply:

We need a balance................I've heard that statement before ref: Divine Healing.......

It mostly comes from the unbelieving church system an the world.

Balance..........like somewhere in the middle ? Like neither Hot or Cold....lukewarm would be a good Balance......


Ron
Re: Hobart Freeman, A man of God or a deceiver? [message #2643 is a reply to message #2642 ] Tue, 05 August 2008 22:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
NBF56  is currently offline NBF56
Messages: 51
Registered: February 2008
Location: Ohio
Member
JWBTI wrote on Tue, 05 August 2008 21:07

Hombre wrote:
It seems as though sometimes it is difficult to see the forest for the trees.

...and IMO, that is what happens when we attach too much importance on the issue of divine healing.
............................................................ ............................................................ ........................................
Rons reply:

Tell that to my granddaughter, the doctors gave up for dead an is alive & well today.
Tell that to my wife after God healed her knees.
Tell that to the woman that was blind an now sees.
Tell that to my Dad that died at the hospital, an God restored life to him when the doctors gave up.
Tell that to the woman that hadn't spoken in 20 yrs because of an injury suffered in a car crash....she now speaks !
Tell that to the cluster headaches I suffered for years, that med science couldn't cure or even kill the pain & suffering.
Tell that to my fahter-in-law that God cured of cancer.

Tell these people that we attach to much importance to the issue of Divine Healing.....
............................................................ ............................................................ .......................................

Hombre wrote:

We need a balance here, certainly God does care, and I don't want to discourage anyone from acting on their faith, but we do

need to accept the fact that many have died doing what they believed or thought was faith, when in fact it wasn't.
............................................................ ............................................................ ................................................

Rons reply:

We need a balance................I've heard that statement before ref: Divine Healing.......

It mostly comes from the unbelieving church system an the world.

Balance..........like somewhere in the middle ? Like neither Hot or Cold....lukewarm would be a good Balance......



Well then, Ron, buddy, y'all need to 'splain to us why it works for you, and not for other people. Is your faith that much greater? Don't just say "Because you don't have enough faith", because faith is not quantitative.

You seem to be subtley looking down your nose at Hombre and me. We are not advocating anything other than people honestly assessing whether they are able to believe for healing, or whether they should seek medical help rather than die when they know they can't believe. Why should people die for no good reason?
Re: Hobart Freeman, A man of God or a deceiver? [message #2644 is a reply to message #2627 ] Wed, 06 August 2008 04:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
grandom  is currently offline grandom
Messages: 404
Registered: October 2007
Senior Member
James wrote I'm just raising some more questions that maybe if we thought about it and examined ourselves as to why some things haven't manifested in our lives, the answers may lie within us. Maybe some need to repent and return to their FIRST LOVE, JESUS THE CHRIST, and climb back up on that cross He told us to get on 25-30 years ago...I got down, how bout you, my brethern in Christ?



If your asking me personally if i ever got down off the cross my answer is absolutely for more years then i care to admit. In fact cut me off in traffic on my highway and I leap off it. Embarassed Anybody who says they havent come off the cross is either lying or doesnt understand the cross. But God in His infinite love and grace allowed me the chance to get back on.

I appreciate that we can all discuss this issue in a disciplined manner and no one seems to be losing their cool.

Trust and obey and see that the Lord is Good.

Re: Hobart Freeman, A man of God or a deceiver? [message #2645 is a reply to message #2643 ] Wed, 06 August 2008 05:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
grandom  is currently offline grandom
Messages: 404
Registered: October 2007
Senior Member
NBF56 wrote Well then, Ron, buddy, y'all need to 'splain to us why it works for you, and not for other people. Is your faith that much greater? Don't just say "Because you don't have enough faith", because faith is not quantitative.


Somebody forgot to tell Jesus that faith is not quantitative. He chastised His disciples for having little faith. He told the woman from Caanan she had great faith.
Re: Hobart Freeman, A man of God or a deceiver? [message #2646 is a reply to message #2636 ] Wed, 06 August 2008 09:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
NBF56  is currently offline NBF56
Messages: 51
Registered: February 2008
Location: Ohio
Member
Hombre wrote on Tue, 05 August 2008 13:57

NBF56 wrote on Tue, 05 August 2008 12:35

Quote:

Hombre, do you any idea why Speedy Gonzales yells "Hombre, Hombre!" whenever he runs? It doesn't make sense to me


Actually, what Speedy said was "聲dale! ℅ndale! ,rriba! ,rriba", which means, loosely translated, "Hurry up! Get up!"

NBF


That is an affirmative. Now can anyone tell me why Wiley Coyote always used equipment from the 'Acme' company, even though it consistently failed?


As could be seen from his repeated failures, Ol' Wiley didn't really connect the failures with the Acme company. Perhaps it wasn't the equipment, but the operator? Road Runner may have been a bird brain, but Wiley wasn't exactly the sharpest tool in the shed..... Laughing
Re: Hobart Freeman, A man of God or a deceiver? [message #2647 is a reply to message #2643 ] Wed, 06 August 2008 10:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
Messages: 1926
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL
Senior Member
Jim,

Despite the urge to be flippant, which at times I have been know to be, may I ask of you a question?
'Splain to me why medical science works for you and not for me. Don't say because I didn't spend enough money,
cause I did, thousands, for over a year. I went to different doctors, took different medicines, and didn't receive healing.

This is not my reason for trusting in Jesus for healing; it did confirm to me what I already believed concerning medical science.

Maybe I didn't have faith in the doctors and the drugs.

<One might reply,> well bro, you didn't have faith in Jesus or you wouldn't have sought the arm of the flesh;
yet at the same time you didn't have faith in them either...what were you thinking?
You say God took care of you for 25+ years without so much as an asprin,
looks to me like you were the man described in James 1:5-8 WAVERING!

I was, I had allowed circumstances and the voice of man to rob me of what I had walked in for years.
I don't make excuses nor blame others; I won't be able to on the day of judgement, so I'm learning to not do it in the here and now.

I can say this with confidence, what I went through mentally as well as physically, brought me closer to Jesus.
And what I don't have answers to today, I determime to keep seeking Him to show me, and in the meantime I strive to walk in obedience to what He's commanded...
'Love God with my whole heart, and my neighbor as myself.'

It's totally O.K. with me if you go to doctors and take medicine, I don't think you'll lose your salvation over it.
I'm not looking down my nose at you or anyone else, you walk in what you're persuaded in your heart is righteous and godly.

Blessing to you in Jesus

james


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: Hobart Freeman, A man of God or a deceiver? [message #2648 is a reply to message #2645 ] Wed, 06 August 2008 10:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
NBF56  is currently offline NBF56
Messages: 51
Registered: February 2008
Location: Ohio
Member
grandom wrote on Wed, 06 August 2008 06:02

NBF56 wrote Well then, Ron, buddy, y'all need to 'splain to us why it works for you, and not for other people. Is your faith that much greater? Don't just say "Because you don't have enough faith", because faith is not quantitative.


Somebody forgot to tell Jesus that faith is not quantitative. He chastised His disciples for having little faith. He told the woman from Caanan she had great faith.


There is more to it than just our faith. Nothing can happen unless God allows it, if He doesn't actually decree it. Even sickness and disease on Christians. Some sicknesses we bring on ourselves by the choices we make, or the abuse we subject our bodies to. God has designed the body to heal itself, but if we continually interfere with that process, the body fails to do its designed job. Plus, we live in a corrupt world, where entropy and decay are certain. Our bodies age, and aren't able to function as efficiently as they did when we were teenagers. We are living in the old man's body, even though we are new creatures in Christ.

The teaching is that Christians should live in divine health, and the inference is that if they are not, they either, a)don't have enough faith, or b)have secret sin which blocks God's divine healing. That is assuming that they know that God heals today.

However, is it really possible for us to thwart the will of God? Is God really "hamstrung" by our wills, such that He cannot do anything unless we "let" Him? Has God really subjected His sovereignty to man's will? There's a lot of teaching out there that leads to the logical conclusion.

Healing, and why some are healed and others are not, has no "pat answer", no one-size-fits-all explanation. Many of us were led to believe that it did. I rejoice with those who have been healed. I have had one miraculous, instantaneous healing in my life. I am believing for other healings as I write this. I have gone to doctors, not because I doubt God, or because I trust in the arm of the flesh, but because it is possible to relieve the manifestations of the illness, and to better manage them, so that I can continue to do what God has given me to do, and to provide for my family, as God has commanded. I do not give in to the illness, I fight it tooth and nail, and command my body to resist it. I eat right, and supplement my diet with herbal and natural products, due to the removal of many of those beneficial dietary items by the food industry. I take care of the temple, and believe God to do the rest.

I have no explanation why God instantaneously healed my broken ankle, but did not do so with Rheumatoid Arthritis. I have no explanation for why God would bring my wife back from the dead after 11 minutes, but did not heal Bruce Kinsey of Leukemia. If anyone does, now's the time to let us know, so that we may understand more fully, and avail ourselves of that knowledge. But I'm not buying the often-used canard, "it was because of a lack of faith". If it were that simple, then it would be easy to correct, and those with faith would not fail to get their healings.
Re: Hobart Freeman, A man of God or a deceiver? [message #2653 is a reply to message #2636 ] Wed, 06 August 2008 11:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jisamazed  is currently offline jisamazed
Messages: 170
Registered: January 2008
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Senior Member
NBF56 wrote on Tue, 05 August 2008 12:35

Quote:

Hombre, do you any idea why Speedy Gonzales yells "Hombre, Hombre!" whenever he runs? It doesn't make sense to me


Actually, what Speedy said was "聲dale! ℅ndale! ,rriba! ,rriba", which means, loosely translated, "Hurry up! Get up!"

NBF


Gotcha. I grew up with a reeeeally old television with poor sound, and I was always trying to figure out what he said, and it seemed to sound like "Hombre!" I know what arriba means thanks to the migrant workers I used to teach (and Dora the explorer), but I never got the other word. Amazing what misconceptions we can have after 40 years.


Amazed smitten astonished stunned floored blown away astounded shocked flabbergasted surprised wonderfully devastated awed shattered overwhelmed incredulous speechless sense of wonder at the love of God.
Re: Hobart Freeman, A man of God or a deceiver? [message #2654 is a reply to message #2646 ] Wed, 06 August 2008 11:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
NBF56  is currently offline NBF56
Messages: 51
Registered: February 2008
Location: Ohio
Member
Hombre wrote on Wed, 06 August 2008 11:41

NBF56 wrote on Wed, 06 August 2008 09:53

.... Road Runner may have been a bird brain, but Wiley wasn't exactly the sharpest tool in the shed..... Laughing



..perhaps you haven't read...but there will be no more name calling here....

Laughing


Doesn't apply to characters who only exist in our collective imaginations... Razz

Hombre

...and before I stop looking at this particular 'fable', I would like to add to your conclusion that maybe things aren't always as complicated as we tend to make them. Maybe we don't need a Phd to understand that which Jesus said we must accept as a little child.


It is the common failing of man to make things more complicated than they need to be. We all have the capacity to make the simple complex, and the easy, hard. Must be something to do with the Fall...

.
Hombre

.next question...why didn't Wiley ever just buy a rifle with a good site on it?

Rolling Eyes




Ummm....because Acme was anti-gun, and operated in a firearms-free zone? Or maybe as james said, he had a prior on his record, and couldn't pass the background check.....
Re: Hobart Freeman, A man of God or a deceiver? [message #2656 is a reply to message #2653 ] Wed, 06 August 2008 11:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
NBF56  is currently offline NBF56
Messages: 51
Registered: February 2008
Location: Ohio
Member
jisamazed wrote on Wed, 06 August 2008 12:20

NBF56 wrote on Tue, 05 August 2008 12:35

Quote:

Hombre, do you any idea why Speedy Gonzales yells "Hombre, Hombre!" whenever he runs? It doesn't make sense to me


Actually, what Speedy said was "聲dale! ℅ndale! ,rriba! ,rriba", which means, loosely translated, "Hurry up! Get up!"

NBF


Gotcha. I grew up with a reeeeally old television with poor sound, and I was always trying to figure out what he said, and it seemed to sound like "Hombre!" I know what arriba means thanks to the migrant workers I used to teach (and Dora the explorer), but I never got the other word. Amazing what misconceptions we can have after 40 years.




Have you ever seen the sites that give the common mis understanding of song lyrics? Some of them are absolutely hilarious.

Lyrics like "There's a Bathroom on the Right" ("Bad Moon On The Rise")

"'Scuse me, while I kiss this guy" (Scuse me while I kiss the sky)

There's even a site that has these for Christian music.

Re: Hobart Freeman, A man of God or a deceiver? [message #2657 is a reply to message #2642 ] Wed, 06 August 2008 12:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jisamazed  is currently offline jisamazed
Messages: 170
Registered: January 2008
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Senior Member
JWBTI wrote on Tue, 05 August 2008 20:07

Hombre wrote:
It seems as though sometimes it is difficult to see the forest for the trees.

...and IMO, that is what happens when we attach too much importance on the issue of divine healing.
............................................................ ............................................................ ........................................
Rons reply:

Tell that to my granddaughter, the doctors gave up for dead an is alive & well today.
Tell that to my wife after God healed her knees.
Tell that to the woman that was blind an now sees.
Tell that to my Dad that died at the hospital, an God restored life to him when the doctors gave up.
Tell that to the woman that hadn't spoken in 20 yrs because of an injury suffered in a car crash....she now speaks !
Tell that to the cluster headaches I suffered for years, that med science couldn't cure or even kill the pain & suffering.
Tell that to my fahter-in-law that God cured of cancer.

Tell these people that we attach to much importance to the issue of Divine Healing.....
............................................................ ............................................................ .......................................




Ron, I am blessed by these stories. I've known a few people with similiar testimonies, but I've never actually known someone who was blind who now sees. I've seen it done on a Reinhard Bonnke video, but never in person. The Lord has kept me and my family in good health, for the most part, since we were married 16 years ago.

There is no question that the Lord heals people supernaturally today, just like He promised. The question is whether or not He also allows for healing through means.

With all the comments about doctors hurting and killing people, we also need to acknowledge the good that they have done, which far outnumbers the bad, IMO. They are flawed and, yes, some like to pontificate and MD stands for "major deity" and all that. Some are involved in the occult. However, I know a few humble, God-fearing, God-trusting doctors who acknowledge the Lord our healer, and there are many others who are simply trying to help relieve human suffering. Medical science is not the gift of healing. It is, however, part of the accumulation of knowledge and understanding that Solomon talked about in Proverbs 2.

In an ideal world, none of us would need a doctor. But we don't live in an ideal world, and we are not ideal ourselves yet. If someone wants to take medicine or see an expert on the body (doctor) in order to get relief from pain, he or she should do that without any sense of guilt. If doing so is not sin, then such a person can ask the Lord's blessing on it in confidence. We can ask for discernment to know when to stop or whether or not to follow up with a referral, etc... Let not that person doubt in his heart. Whatever you do, do with all your heart to the Lord. If someone is going to access medical science, he should do so wholeheartedly without second-guessing himself. If that person believes that the Lord does not want him to go, then he should not go. But he had better be sure he has heard from the Lord. Blessed is he whose conscience does not condemn him. The Lord has accepted him.

The Lord's promise of healing was meant to be a gift, not a beat-down about avoiding medical science.


Amazed smitten astonished stunned floored blown away astounded shocked flabbergasted surprised wonderfully devastated awed shattered overwhelmed incredulous speechless sense of wonder at the love of God.
Re: Hobart Freeman, A man of God or a deceiver? [message #2659 is a reply to message #2657 ] Wed, 06 August 2008 17:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JWBTI  is currently offline JWBTI
Messages: 289
Registered: March 2007
Location: Ohio
Senior Member




NBF56 wrote:
Well then, Ron, buddy, y'all need to 'splain to us why it works for you, and not for other people. Is your faith that much greater? Don't just say "Because you don't have enough faith", because faith is not quantitative.

You seem to be subtley looking down your nose at Hombre and me. We are not advocating anything other than people honestly assessing whether they are able to believe for healing, or whether they should seek medical help rather than die when they know they can't believe. Why should people die for no good reason?
............................................................ ............................................................ ............................................................ ........

Rons reply:

No Brother, this was no put down. The cold, the hot & lukewarm was an observation of my own life. When I had been cold
an indifferent to my own healing....when I tried to help God by way of the doctors & medication it seemed to nullify the effects
of laying hands on others, with no results but hand prints on there heads & oil in there hair.But when I submitted my health
an healing to the Lord an Him alone, with out worry or fear of the out come, I saw and still see tremendous results.
Where did I learn this ? Smith Wigglesworth,John G Lake,GC Bevington an Hobart Freeman.

Peter heard the same message as the other disciples, why was he the only one willing to jump out of the boat
an go after Jesus on the water ?

I heard the same message as you all did.
Who has believed our report?
and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed ?

Its been revealed to All of us, but some are not ready to step out of the boat yet.

Jesus commanded us to, Go....to preach..to say The Kingdom of Heaven is at Hand....
Heal the sick....cleans the leper....raise the dead....cast out devils...
freely ye have received......freely give.

IMO:If I have power to heal others according to Jesus Words...Then I have power to heal my own body !

Why should people die for no good reason ?
They die every day in the hospital for no good reason.

They shouldn't because God gave us the power to heal ..deliver and set free.....it's time to get out of the boat !

My prayer for all of us: Is to be like Abraham, being fully persuaded that,
what He (God) had promised He was able also to perform :(Rom 4:21)

Blessings


Ron
Re: Hobart Freeman, A man of God or a deceiver? [message #2661 is a reply to message #2659 ] Thu, 07 August 2008 08:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
NBF56  is currently offline NBF56
Messages: 51
Registered: February 2008
Location: Ohio
Member
JWBTI wrote on Wed, 06 August 2008 18:15


NBF56 wrote:
Well then, Ron, buddy, y'all need to 'splain to us why it works for you, and not for other people. Is your faith that much greater? Don't just say "Because you don't have enough faith", because faith is not quantitative.

You seem to be subtley looking down your nose at Hombre and me. We are not advocating anything other than people honestly assessing whether they are able to believe for healing, or whether they should seek medical help rather than die when they know they can't believe. Why should people die for no good reason?

________________________________________________________

Rons reply:

No Brother, this was no put down. The cold, the hot & lukewarm was an observation of my own life. When I had been cold
an indifferent to my own healing....when I tried to help God by way of the doctors & medication it seemed to nullify the effects
of laying hands on others, with no results but hand prints on there heads & oil in there hair.But when I submitted my health
an healing to the Lord an Him alone, with out worry or fear of the out come, I saw and still see tremendous results.
Where did I learn this ? Smith Wigglesworth,John G Lake,GC Bevington an Hobart Freeman.


I will not argue with that. I think we all have experienced seasons of indifference, to one degree or another. And let's face it, when we were young, most of us had good health, so divine healing was somewhat of an abstract concept for us. Situations arising which made it an imperative were usually of a life-threatening variety.

Ron

Peter heard the same message as the other disciples, why was he the only one willing to jump out of the boat
an go after Jesus on the water ?


Peter represents a bit of a dichotomy to us, at the same time a personality who was completely sold out to whatever he believed, but impetuous and gullible. He represents both the good and bad qualities we all possess to one degree or another. Many of us can identify with Peter quite readily, because we're the same way, all or nothing. Peter's mouth got him in trouble more than once, and I believe that never completely went away, but was only tempered over time. We can learn a lot from Peter.

Ron

I heard the same message as you all did.
Who has believed our report?
and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed ?

Its been revealed to All of us, but some are not ready to step out of the boat yet.


that very well may be. But, Jesus did not chew out the others for not jumping out of the boat as Peter did. Many of us at FA who did not jump out of the boat were chastised, to one degree or another, by peer pressure, and subtle shunning by those who considered themselves more "spiritual" and therefore "better" than their faithless brethren. There is enough evidence from others here to establish that, and I'm making no judgments against those who did treat others that way, understanding that they believed they were keeping themselves "pure" by doing so.

Ron

Jesus commanded us to, Go....to preach..to say The Kingdom of Heaven is at Hand....
Heal the sick....cleans the leper....raise the dead....cast out devils...
freely ye have received......freely give.


Indeed He did.

Ron

IMO:If I have power to heal others according to Jesus Words...Then I have power to heal my own body !

Why should people die for no good reason ?
They die every day in the hospital for no good reason.

They shouldn't because God gave us the power to heal ..deliver and set free.....it's time to get out of the boat !


I would disagree to a point. Jesus gave us the authority in His Name to heal, etc. The power remains with Him, and is to be used as He wills, not as we will. The fact that no one who believes has been able to just walk through any hospital, and heal all in the hospital, is not a lack of faith on their part, it is the fact that God heals as He wills, not as we will, the same as He has elected some to salvation, and has chosen to leave others in their sins. We do not control the Gift of Healing. He does, and it works at His discretion, not our demand. Jesus did not heal every sick person in Israel during His earthly ministry. He healed those who came to Him, in faith, believing. There were many at the Pool of Bethesda who were sick, Jesus healed one, and left. Jesus was led by the Spirit, the same way we are to be led today.

Ron

My prayer for all of us: Is to be like Abraham, being fully persuaded that,
what He (God) had promised He was able also to perform :(Rom 4:21)

Blessings


I think we all desire to be of that mind, fully persuaded.
Re: Hobart Freeman, A man of God or a deceiver? [message #2680 is a reply to message #2661 ] Thu, 07 August 2008 21:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JWBTI  is currently offline JWBTI
Messages: 289
Registered: March 2007
Location: Ohio
Senior Member
Hombre wrote:
What I am seeing here JWBTI, is that I don't believe that you have understood me correctly. I'm not making excuses in saying that either. I am attempting to bring balance to the way in which this subject is taught, I am not disputing the importance of healing for those who need it. I am saying that the doctrine was presented WRONG to the destruction of those who failed. Faith, IMO, doesn't grow out of a fear of losing something, be it ones' salvation or the status of an 'overcomer' which is somewhat ridiculous anyway, that is, to assume that you are because you say you are...I believe that Jesus kinda summed that up when he told James and John that the privilege of sitting beside Him is providential by the Father. In fact He said that it wasn't His to give. If it isn't even the choice of Jesus to give certain things, how much less is it our call on the matter? WE should do our best to be sure, but the final choice of whether or not WE are 'overcomers' is NOT ours.

The fact that healing is promised over and over, is not something I am disputing, however I see in it 'a promise', which IS exceedingly great and precious and to which I believe ought to be approached as such, and NOT as some sort of exclusive admittance ticket to ones' salvation or status in the kingdom. Healing is a blessing and something to be thankful for, not something to be held over ones' head as a religious guillotine. I am saying that the way in which it was defined was truly AWFUL and it forced people into a position of obedience based upon fear, rather than a love relationship with Christ from whom the blessings flow.
------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------------------
Rons Reply:
Did Hobart present the message wrong, if so do you have a tape # or a copy of one I could hear?
or did We the people twist the message to our own destruction ?
1976-1983,
Durning the seven years I spent at Faith Assembly I had personal contact with Stan Hill 2 to 3 times a week, my
wife gave birth to 5 of our 9 children...All birthed at the Hospital....OH MY.(I wasn't as brave as some you!)
(Nine kids....well yeh....With no Tv..... what are you going to do with your spare time ?opps- that was flesh...!)
Stan Hill knew this....Not one time! did he....Rebuke....Repromand....our threaten to throw me out of the Body......
Neither was I called behind the platform for a private meeting with Dr Freeman.
Durning this time, I never felt forced an or compelled to Trust God alone in lou of medical science.
We were warned from the pulpit If it is not faith in your heart..! get help (med science) I think it was a pretty
strong rebuke that night. So...... did Stan Hill miss it by not throwing me out of the Body for going to the hospital ?
Who do we blame for this shamefull teaching ?
------------------------------------------------------------ -----------------------------------------------------------
Hombre wrote:
....so then to sum up, I have 2 points about getting a 'balance'.

1. The way in which the doctrine is defined.
2. The constant drumbeat of that doctrine to the exclusion of others.

Next, I like NBF56 am here to learn as much as I assume everyone else here is. We would all love to hear your testimonies with reference to what you have posted as proof of the doctrine, and share with us how it is that your entire family was able to receive the healings that they have, because many have tried, and comparatively few have succeeded, including Hobart, who I thought ought to know better than anyone else. It also seems to me that an infection would be easier to believe for than cancer, yet apparently Hobart didn't have the same level of faith as your father in law. BTW, I'd also like to know how it was that your father in law knew he had cancer, since you're telling us that you eschew doctors. Did your father in law diagnose himself?

I SINCERELY want to know, especially since one of the best friends I ever had is now languishing with diagnosed cancer, who also happened to be the one who led me to Christ and HEF/FA, who embraced everything that was taught and still does. If there is ANYTHING you know that I don't.....

PLEASE DON'T COMMIT SIN BY WITHOLDING THIS INFORMATION FROM YOUR BROTHERS AND SISTERS.

Thank you Ron.
------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------ -----
Ron Reply:
Yes, I admit it......I am unbalanced ....cause I am leaning on Jesus an His everlasting arms...safe an secure from all alarm.
No, I have no beef with Medical Science they do the best they can & yes most of them mean well; but I'd rather trust Jesus.
I've been both ways and I am married to a nurse......so I fight the battle over balance every day....
Free will....yes..... if a person is doing all they can be it Faith by Gods Word or Medical Science I'll be there for them
with out condemnation or spite.

Ref my father-in-law,
He was diagnosed with prostate cancer (by a doctor a MD) he went thru months of radiation treatments.
Day after day... week after week driving 90 miles round trip sometime 5 days aweek for treatment.....Burnt up lots of gas.
After the final week of radiation they retested .....the treament had no effect on the cancer... He called me that night to
share the bad news.....they wanted him to return an retest an talk about it in a few days...He knew it was bad news.
After I hung up...the Holy Spirit spoke an said...What are you going to do ? Are you going to let him die ?or are you
going to share My Word with him?
My father-in-law is a good old Baptist...Saved forsure an dedicated to Gods Word,
but not real excited about Tongue talkers an people laying hands on them for healing...
So...what am I going to do? Jump out of the boat like Peter an trust that God will be there or turn my back on all that
I've been taught.............Honey get your shoes on, God wants us to Lay hands on your dad for healing..........What?
My dad ? yes !.......Do I have to go ? Yes !
God had already prepared his heart before we arrived. We shared Jas 5 with him....he requested that we lay hands on him for
healing an we went back home. A few days later he went back to the doctor an was retested an was retested again.....
no sign of cancer an the prostate was normal.

What was the key ?
Simple Obedience an Child like faith in Gods Word......

Over all the years at Faith Assembly I learned one important thing.....Brother Freeman taught many deep Theological Truths,
but when it came to his material an physical needs, he reverted to one thing...............
Child like faith in Gods Word, not his own wisdom.
If God said it.....I believe it .....and that settles it for me.
Blessings







Ron
Re: Hobart Freeman, A man of God or a deceiver? [message #2687 is a reply to message #2615 ] Fri, 08 August 2008 13:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
grandom  is currently offline grandom
Messages: 404
Registered: October 2007
Senior Member
jisamazed wrote on Mon, 04 August 2008 12:15



If Todd Bentley's ministry was having a direct effect on my church I would have more urgency to do my research. But, frankly, it's just not that important right now. There's other weird stuff out there that we have to deal with. I don't care what others think. I'm going to take my time. I've already expressed my perceptions thus far.



Jis I`m wondering what direct effect HEF has had on your church that you have spent so much time trying to convince us that he was in error. It would seem that if we were all deceived about HEF and "if" we are deceived about Todd Bentley It would seem that since HEF is gone and TB is still here that you would learn all you could about him so as to protect us form him.
Re: Hobart Freeman, A man of God or a deceiver? [message #2690 is a reply to message #2687 ] Fri, 08 August 2008 19:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JWBTI  is currently offline JWBTI
Messages: 289
Registered: March 2007
Location: Ohio
Senior Member
Hombre wrote:
I still think that you are misunderstanding my position though, and that may be in fact due to you sitting under an outreach as I also did, as opposed to FA proper where we keep hearing about fierce peer pressure and legalism from those who were there.

I don't have the same experience as many of them did, and I have to say that the years I spent under the teaching were some of my very best, and I hold no ill will towards anyone.

When I and others speak of the sort of pressure that was put on people to believe for 'divine healing' as a precondition for 'overcomer' status and even for salvation, it is not simply our 'perception' of it, but a reality. If you can't pick that up from the multitude of Hobarts tapes, especially his last ones, including the series on Jude, then I can't really say anything else to you about it.
...as I have said MANY TIMES, I am NOT defending lukewarmness, nor am I against the idea of 'divine healing'; what I am FOR is the presentation of the subject of 'divine healing' as a positive one that promotes and builds faith and desire, as opposed to one that creates legalism, fear and bondage. That it did is/was IMO, a reality in many peoples lives that is only debatable with reference to its' intent as deliberate or not. I believe that it was NOT a deliberate act, but was a unforeseen consequence of community peer pressure, that you and I for the most part, did not experience due to our location outside of the main body.
------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------ -----
Rons Reply:
Hombre, I was at the Barn....The Tent.....The New Building.......Stan Hills meetings in Fort Wayne......I lived in Fort Wayne
an traveled 3 times a week to the meetings......I WAS THERE !
As far as making the Overcomers list......Oh my ? I was just trying to make it from one meeting to the next.

As far as peer pressure an legalism, I didn't get any of that from Stan Hill an he was like second in command after Dr.Freeman.
Why don't ya asked Grandom about this also.......He was there too !! I'm the one that forced him to go !(peer pressure)
I'll check out the Jude teachings ,
Thanks Brother






...


Ron
Re: Hobart Freeman, A man of God or a deceiver? [message #2691 is a reply to message #2690 ] Fri, 08 August 2008 21:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JWBTI  is currently offline JWBTI
Messages: 289
Registered: March 2007
Location: Ohio
Senior Member
NFB56 wrote:

that very well may be. But, Jesus did not chew out the others for not jumping out of the boat as Peter did. Many of us at FA who did not jump out of the boat were chastised, to one degree or another, by peer pressure, and subtle shunning by those who considered themselves more "spiritual" and therefore "better" than their faithless brethren. There is enough evidence from others here to establish that, and I'm making no judgments against those who did treat others that way, understanding that they believed they were keeping themselves "pure" by doing so.
------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------ -----
Rons reply:
Did this come from the leadership or the people in the Body ?
I must have missed that part, maybe they felt sorry for me an left me alone ? I don't doubt what your're saying brother, I just
didn't experance that.

NFB56 wrote:
I would disagree to a point. Jesus gave us the authority in His Name to heal, etc. The power remains with Him, and is to be used as He wills, not as we will. The fact that no one who believes has been able to just walk through any hospital, and heal all in the hospital, is not a lack of faith on their part, it is the fact that God heals as He wills, not as we will, the same as He has elected some to salvation, and has chosen to leave others in their sins. We do not control the Gift of Healing. He does, and it works at His discretion, not our demand. Jesus did not heal every sick person in Israel during His earthly ministry. He healed those who came to Him, in faith, believing. There were many at the Pool of Bethesda who were sick, Jesus healed one, and left. Jesus was led by the Spirit, the same way we are to be led today.
------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------ ------
Rons reply:
Everytime I walk into a nursing home or a hospital the thought crosses my mind......Oh please Lord, let me empty the beds...
Sorry, can't help but think that way....tho it hasn't happened yet......maybe tommarrow !? Ok, I like to think out side the box.
Yes I understand about the authority thing.......But I also take Mk 3:15 and to have power to heal sickness and to cast out
devils along with what you stated. Thats just the way my simple mind works.





Ron
Re: Hobart Freeman, A man of God or a deceiver? [message #2692 is a reply to message #2691 ] Sat, 09 August 2008 09:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
grandom  is currently offline grandom
Messages: 404
Registered: October 2007
Senior Member


So much has been said about divine healing here on this forum and many other places as well. I don't pretend to have the answers why it works for some and not for others.I can only recite the history of healing in the Bible. It reads He healed all who believed. Jesus said "Be it unto you according to your faith". Many have said I tried it and it didn't work. May I humbly suggest that divine healing is not something you just TRY. I once witnessed to a young man I worked with about Divine healing. He said" I tried it and it didn't work". He had an ingrown toe nail and he said I tried it for 30 days. My My 30 whole days.What if the Lord was going to heal him on the 31st day? Friends I had and issue of blood (yes men can have issues of blood) that I walked out for over 5 years. I trusted God to heal it and honestly I cant Tell you the day the manifestation came. There was no warm fuzzy feeling. One day I just realized that it was gone. I lost most of my vision in my left eye over a year ago that I am trusting God to heal. I, like someone else said have arthritis that I`m believing for. May I suggest that God heals on His timetable not ours.May I also add that if I never get healed for these afflictions it does not change the Word one iota.But I believed I was healed when I prayed and Therefore I am healed.

What about faith for Divine healing? I asked any and all, "How do you know you are saved"? Is it a feeling or do you know that you know that you are saved? With me faith for healing is the same. I don't depend on feelings because I still hurt every day. I don't depend on hope or wishing, I know that I know that I am healed.I am not trying it. For me to try it would indicate that if it doesn't work I can always go to the Dr.My wife has indicated she believes in Divine healing and yet she has diabetes.She goes to Drs. And in no way shape or form would I encourage her to give up her medications and not go to Drs. Because I know I know that has to be something that she would have to believe with all her heart and I know she is not there.

JBTI and I have had lots of conversations regarding this as you can well imagine and he asked me once would I take my babies(if I had any) to the Dr. My answer was and is. YOU don't let your babies die. Unbelief. Hypocrisy. I cant really answer that and I will leave that judgement to the Lord. There were times when my daughter was growing up that I did pray for her rather then going to Drs. And she would after a period of time when she would be sick she would say "Dad I need prayer". She didn't ask to go the DR.

Have I ministered confusion? I hope not. God is faithful to His word regardless if none of us ever get healed or we all die (which by the way) is going to happen.Why Why is the great question. Jesus said I only do what the Father shows me. I have to seek Him daily. He said He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

Blessings to all and may God in His wisdom and soverenty heal all who believe.
Re: Hobart Freeman, A man of God or a deceiver? [message #2693 is a reply to message #2687 ] Sat, 09 August 2008 16:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jisamazed  is currently offline jisamazed
Messages: 170
Registered: January 2008
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Senior Member
grandom wrote on Fri, 08 August 2008 13:10

jisamazed wrote on Mon, 04 August 2008 12:15



If Todd Bentley's ministry was having a direct effect on my church I would have more urgency to do my research. But, frankly, it's just not that important right now. There's other weird stuff out there that we have to deal with. I don't care what others think. I'm going to take my time. I've already expressed my perceptions thus far.



Jis I`m wondering what direct effect HEF has had on your church that you have spent so much time trying to convince us that he was in error. It would seem that if we were all deceived about HEF and "if" we are deceived about Todd Bentley It would seem that since HEF is gone and TB is still here that you would learn all you could about him so as to protect us form him.


Grandom, there are people on this forum TO THIS DAY, 24 years after his death, who question their salvation if they go to the doctor (just read a few earlier posts); think that HEF preached the full counsel of God and no one else did; who are not a part of a community of believers (church) because none line up with his teaching; are still isolated from the world and other Christians; use dorky, out-of-date faith terms that don't really reflect the Bible (I've done it myself); express the same critical spirit, masking as discernment, due to HEF's ministry. A few still don't make the connection between the many messed-up lives that happened and HEF's teaching, stating that his teaching was misunderstood. The sheep are blamed, not the shepherd. It is true that he is not responsible for anyone's bad decisions, but he is responsible for the error and imbalance that he taught that contributed to their bad decisions.

I don't talk about HEF or Faith Assembly with people at my church unless they were affected by it, too (a few of them were). I only discuss it here and on my blog, which I don't use very often. This forum is for people who were affected by his ministry in one way or another, whether directly or indirectly, if I am not mistaken. It is an appropropriate forum to discuss these matters.

I know for me, it is very liberating in a good way to do so. We were not allowed to express our grievances with HEF and the teachers coming out of FA back then. It would have been considered a critical spirit, even if we had legitimate questions and concerns that were expressed in the right spirit. Insecure leadership squashed dissent as effectively as any communist dictator. That was almost universal in the FA denomination. However, now we can talk about them here without fear of a beat-down, for the most part. We can say, "Hobart Freeman was wrong" without being afraid that some spooky bad thing is going to happen because the Lord is angry with us for opposing His anointed. Anyone who uses that to try to get people to suspend judgement about their ministry should be under suspicion, IMO. HEF or TB or anyone else.

Because of our freedom to discuss both the truths and errors HEF taught, we get free from the error and built up by the truth, and hopefully free from the idea that he was some sort of gold standard of teaching.


Amazed smitten astonished stunned floored blown away astounded shocked flabbergasted surprised wonderfully devastated awed shattered overwhelmed incredulous speechless sense of wonder at the love of God.
Re: Hobart Freeman, A man of God or a deceiver? [message #2696 is a reply to message #2693 ] Sat, 09 August 2008 20:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
Messages: 1926
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL
Senior Member
Jisamazed wrote:

[Grandom, there are people on this forum TO THIS DAY, 24 years after his death, who question their salvation if they go to the doctor (just read a few earlier posts); think that HEF preached the full counsel of God and no one else did; who are not a part of a community of believers (church) because none line up with his teaching; are still isolated from the world and other Christians; use dorky, out-of-date faith terms that don't really reflect the Bible (I've done it myself); express the same critical spirit, masking as discernment, due to HEF's ministry.]

Amazing, Amazed, I went back through this thread and couldn't find anyone questioning their salvation after going to a doctor. For some strange reason I get the feeling you're speaking of or alluding to me, though I don't see why you would write as if whomever you're refering to won't be reading your statements. If by chance, you are refering to me, why not address me or whoever you're making these judgements concerning. I believe you are, in a cowardly way, throwing condescending accusations at someone who confesses to be a brother in Christ and has gone out of their way to be longsuffering with you, even when you took off a couple of weeks to mull over some things and let the dust settle. If you are addressing me, then my response is this; I have NEVER doubted my salvation, not even for one second since Jesus saved me. Repented for not trusting Him? YES. BIG difference. I do think HEF taught the full counsel of God,I do not think he was perfect, and I do believe there are others who teach The Word.(SOMEWHERE) I am not a member of the community church, not because of HEF but because they don't preach or believe the message of the bible.(none that I've found sofar) I am not isolated from the world, I might even have more interaction with the world than you; and I even have christian friends( I consider some on this forum as friends). Dorky, out-of-date faith terms? PLEASE...GIVE ME A BREAK, DUDE. That doesn't even deserve a response. Masking as discernment, a critical spirit, because of, once again Hobart. Now I know you can't be refering to Mr. Bentley...Yeah, you're probably right...If I had an ounce of 'real deal' discernment, I would've straddled the fence until all my christian friends around here wound up howling,roaring,stomping folks,seeing 14 ft angels, and being under the influence of a false prophet and charlatan.
NO!!! I don't think so, but thanks anyway...

I don't really care what you say Jis, but try to make it the truth,(and speaking the truth about what's in someone's heart seems a bit hard to do without the gift of 'discernment', else it comes across as a 'critical spirit')....I can take it and even send a little love your way. Smile PEACE IN JESUS

[Updated on: Sun, 10 August 2008 06:57]


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: Hobart Freeman, A man of God or a deceiver? [message #2710 is a reply to message #2696 ] Mon, 11 August 2008 11:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jisamazed  is currently offline jisamazed
Messages: 170
Registered: January 2008
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Senior Member
Grandom, I was not referring to you. I was actually referring to a comment someone made in another thread last week, explaining why he might question his salvation if he did go to a doctor. I mistakenly thought it was this thread. My bad for not checking. Other comments over the past few months from a couple of people imply the same thing. I would prefer to keep it a generic reference, because it is possible that the people who made those comments don't think that way anymore.

I admit, I was condescending again. Sometimes old habits die hard. The "dorky" thing was unnecessary. I would have been better to have left that off.

I would like to explain why the jargon thing concerns me. For one of many such examples, when my sister had a graduation party way back when, a bunch of her friends came as well as people from the GR group. Her friends thought the group was just really weird for talking in King James vocabulary and making statements like, "My head manifested yesterday", or "I'm believing for prosperity in Jesus' name" or other such jargon. We know what people meant, and we probably used those terms ourselves sometimes, but to use them so casually without any concern for others shows a lack of conscienciousness and poor interpersonal skills. I can't find anywhere in scripture where someone said, "I'm believing for such and such." It might be a scriptural term, but it is not used in scripture per se. Add to that the fact that people do not talk like that in everyday life, and we end looking like "dorks" when we talk that way. Hence my use of the term. However, that was a bit over the top, and I will try to refrain from that kind of word in the future.

I realize that all of us are trying to communicate the best we can and are trying to find the balance of talking scripturally without being weird. We all come to the balance from a different angle.


Amazed smitten astonished stunned floored blown away astounded shocked flabbergasted surprised wonderfully devastated awed shattered overwhelmed incredulous speechless sense of wonder at the love of God.
Re: Hobart Freeman, A man of God or a deceiver? [message #2714 is a reply to message #2710 ] Mon, 11 August 2008 12:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
Messages: 1926
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL
Senior Member
I think i've got it...James(me) is now Grandom; Grandom is really Richard(diaper daddy???);
Moulder/Molder is William; I don't know about Hombre, I think he's on second...but that leaves me wondering, 'who's playing first?'

Which leads me back to the question that always pops into my head in times like these,
Where's the pope when we really need him? Rolling Eyes


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: Hobart Freeman, A man of God or a deceiver? [message #2716 is a reply to message #2714 ] Mon, 11 August 2008 12:28 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
grandom  is currently offline grandom
Messages: 404
Registered: October 2007
Senior Member
Would you guys please stop.

I`m trying to get some work done around here. Laughing Laughing Laughing

HArd to get serious work done belly laughing
Previous Topic:WERE WE ALL CRAZY?
Next Topic:Dreams and Visions
Goto Forum:
  


Current Time: Sat Mar 25 14:36:13 CDT 2017

Total time taken to generate the page: 0.01741 seconds
.:: Contact :: Home ::.

OvercomersOnline.com is Powered by: FUDforum 2.7.3.
Copyright ©2001-2004 FUD Forum Bulletin Board Software