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Re: Apostles [message #2798 is a reply to message #2790 ] Sat, 16 August 2008 10:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
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Ye have not because ye ask not... Wow! Speaking of watchmen, Hombre just took on the role of a watchman in warning and trying to help 'the watchman'.
Not trying to be witty, David, just stuck me as an interesting observation.


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: Apostles [message #2803 is a reply to message #2798 ] Sat, 16 August 2008 11:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mark L  is currently offline Mark L
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I vote to make us all here at Overcomers Online, Internet Apostles

Where do we line up? Smile

I'll get the info up this weekend. I did a study a few yrs ago.

Re: Apostles [message #2829 is a reply to message #2795 ] Mon, 18 August 2008 12:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jisamazed  is currently offline jisamazed
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Just a quick note--

Todd's activities have obviously strained his marriage as his wife has recently announced that they are going to get a divorce. I wish he would just step down already and take care of business at home and get some good teaching. Despite what you think of him, you guys can still pray that the Lord will lead him to do what is right and make the most of this mess for good somehow. Gotta go, lunch is over.


Amazed smitten astonished stunned floored blown away astounded shocked flabbergasted surprised wonderfully devastated awed shattered overwhelmed incredulous speechless sense of wonder at the love of God.
Re: Apostles [message #2837 is a reply to message #2829 ] Mon, 18 August 2008 15:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
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Amazed wrote:

"...you guys can still pray that the Lord will lead him to do what is right and make the most of this mess for good somehow."

Alright, help me here, you know the air is different down here below the mason/dixon line, right? So bare with me, you're asking me to pray that The Lord will LEAD Todd Bentley to do what is right and somehow make this mess good? I must really be suffering from oxygen deprivation. GOD HADN'T BEEN LEADING Todd Bentley, that would have been Emma, angels of light, and false apostles/prophets, that he is surrounded by.
God is not to be mocked nor His callings to be imitated; He has exposed this 'mess' and I can't see Him turning around and making it 'good somehow'. Now the lives that were affected by this 'impartation'? Yes, we can pray for them, they are certainly going to need prayer and deliverance.

Yes Todd Bentley needs prayer just as the whole group that jumped onto 'his bandwagon' does. They need to repent before God and the body of Christ and get out of their self appointed ministries and start bringing forth fruits of repentance.

[Updated on: Mon, 18 August 2008 15:59]


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: Apostles [message #2846 is a reply to message #2829 ] Mon, 18 August 2008 21:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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Hombre wrote on Mon, 18 August 2008 12:24

jisamazed wrote on Mon, 18 August 2008 12:05

Just a quick note--

Todd's activities have obviously strained his marriage as his wife has recently announced that they are going to get a divorce. I wish he would just step down already and take care of business at home and get some good teaching. Despite what you think of him, you guys can still pray that the Lord will lead him to do what is right and make the most of this mess for good somehow. Gotta go, lunch is over.


...so...let me get this straight...

YOU wish that he would 'hurry up' and get some understanding, right?

Laughing


Shall we take up a collection and send him some of HEF's tapes?


I want to believe!
Re: Apostles [message #2848 is a reply to message #2846 ] Mon, 18 August 2008 21:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
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How bout the Angels of Light, and Every Wind of Doctrine books?


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: Apostles [message #2854 is a reply to message #2829 ] Mon, 18 August 2008 21:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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Hombre wrote on Mon, 18 August 2008 12:24

jisamazed wrote on Mon, 18 August 2008 12:05

Just a quick note--

Todd's activities have obviously strained his marriage as his wife has recently announced that they are going to get a divorce. I wish he would just step down already and take care of business at home and get some good teaching. Despite what you think of him, you guys can still pray that the Lord will lead him to do what is right and make the most of this mess for good somehow. Gotta go, lunch is over.


...so...let me get this straight...

YOU wish that he would 'hurry up' and get some understanding, right?

Laughing


I just got back on my chair after re-reading your note Hombre. You’ve got to stop doing that to me!

Anyway, I was thinking… as newly ordained "Internet Apostles" we should go and interview him first, just to make sure we aren't relying on secondary sources too heavily. All this may be just a hatchet job dreamed up by Grady... who knows, the mag may be gearing up for all of those Discernment Conferences that they will be advertising in the fall.

Okay guys, check your calendar and see if all of us have the same date open for the intervention... er, neo-alignment. In the mean time, let's not be too hasty in our rush to judgment.

Also, just so we don't give the "appearance of evil" I vote that we don't stay at the same motel as Todd... you know... just in case he's got that open-heaven thing going on. Wouldn't want to be caught in any fiery angelic visitations!

I've got the 25th of December open, then nothing until Easter of next year, what about you all?

Oh, and by the way, we probably ought to fast a little (at least breakfast) on the day we meet up with the guy... might give us an edge... you never know.

Jae, if you can't make it this year, we can shoot for 2010... if that's okay?

William

P.S. All of our plans will be subject to change if the watchman is awakened and decides to share with us his dream... I'd consider that a sign, since, like his great-great-great grandfather, Rip Van Winkle, nothing yet has jarred his slumber.


I want to believe!
Re: Apostles [message #2855 is a reply to message #2848 ] Mon, 18 August 2008 21:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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james wrote on Mon, 18 August 2008 21:19

How bout the Angels of Light, and Every Wind of Doctrine books?


James, you are never going to get anywhere if you don't polish up those people skills.

I'm sure you are aware that Todd already knows about Angels of Light and those Winds of Change... Emma told him.

I was thinking about the prosperity tapes... he may have more of an immediate need for them.

Blessings,
William


I want to believe!
Re: Apostles [message #2856 is a reply to message #2855 ] Mon, 18 August 2008 22:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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moulder wrote on Mon, 18 August 2008 21:56

james wrote on Mon, 18 August 2008 21:19

How bout the Angels of Light, and Every Wind of Doctrine books?


James, you are never going to get anywhere if you don't polish up those people skills.

Besides, you are aware that Todd already knows about Angels of Light and those Winds of Change... Erma told him.

I was thinking about the prosperity tapes... he may have more of an immediate need for them.

Blessings,
William



Or maybe the Confessing his Possession tapes.


I want to believe!
Re: Apostles [message #2859 is a reply to message #2846 ] Tue, 19 August 2008 08:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
grandom  is currently offline grandom
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Hombre, O great theologion


Quick question

Not a trick one either. Serious stuff.

What is the unpardenable sin?

Watchman what of the night
Re: Apostles [message #2860 is a reply to message #2846 ] Tue, 19 August 2008 09:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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How hard it is for the erudite to enter into the kingdom of the slow witted...

Slow down a bit Hombre, you move too fast... you've got to make the morning last.

Over the last couple of days it seems as if you are having more and more difficulty in understanding us... like an old man slowly losing his hearing... it's painful for us to watch.

Yes, I see that you are striving to maintain a modicum of dignity by holding on to complete words like "who?", instead of the slow witted slang "huh?", but if you are going to make it, you've got to become one of us.

James, do you think we ought to let him in on some of the masters of our craft, like Jerry Clower, Rick & Bubba, etc.?

These masters teach you how to "feel" humor. After learning the secret, the expectation that everything must make sense just goes away. You'll learn to laugh even when you can't hear anything that is going on in the room... you know it is funny, just because you are there! So don't let this old age thing get you down; others have overcome these difficulties, you can too!



Blessings,
William


I want to believe!
Re: Apostles [message #2863 is a reply to message #2860 ] Tue, 19 August 2008 09:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
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Rick & Bubba, now there's two brothers who will crack you up. Didn't know you gott'um up dar in the north west quadrant of our lovey state. I usually listen to them on the way to the office during tax season. I hated it when they went off TV.

You had me laughing aloud thinking about how Hombre will just love that little 'dig'. Seriously, he did seem a bit slow yesterday...catching ones drift can be time consuming. Now he's looking up every possible answer for Grandom, thinking that it's a loaded question about sinning against The Holy Spirit. Should be an interesting answer, WHEN he comes up with it. Rolling Eyes

Zacchaeus wuz short...but he didn't give up.
life lesson for us...we don't need to climb trees to enter into the presence of our Father, Jesus came to restore fellowship between God and man. He's available at all times,24/7. Thank you Jesus!


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: Apostles [message #2865 is a reply to message #2859 ] Tue, 19 August 2008 10:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
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Here I am trying to get my rock-n-roll past out of my system by renewing my mind with Lois and Carl, and you guys start up the day with your duo's. William's hearing Simon & Garfunkel's 'Feeling Groovey' and Hombre's off in to the future with '2525' by Zager & Evans. Tsk! Tsk! Tsk! Laughing

I am relieved to know it's not just me. Shocked


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: Apostles [message #2867 is a reply to message #2863 ] Tue, 19 August 2008 10:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
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Dude,you're making my side hurt, I can't stop laughing...

I feel like I've been taking medicine... Very Happy


You know...'A merry heart doeth good like a medicine:...' Pr. 17:22A Shocked

[Updated on: Tue, 19 August 2008 10:19]


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: Apostles [message #2868 is a reply to message #2859 ] Tue, 19 August 2008 10:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
grandom  is currently offline grandom
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Why would I ask that?

I agree with the blaspheme of the Holy Ghost as that has always been my understanding of it. I dont disagree with your other point..

As I sat here pondering things this morning and I got to thinking about Bentley and Browne and the Toronto (blessing)and all of the shenanigans that have occurred during the last few years from other so called charismatics. That question came to mind. Is not what they have been doing slandering The Holy Ghost? I`m sorry but in my mind barking like dogs and violently shaking and Lord knows what else has gone on in the name Of the Holy Ghost, is that not blasphemy?

In Acts 8 Simon the sorcerer saw the power of the Holy Ghost and wanted to buy it so he could lay hands on whomsoever v19.Of course peter explained to him that the Holy spirit doesnt enter unclean vessels. I in my little pea brain cant see that these people are clean vessels. So if they are not doing the work of the Holy Spirit are they not doing the work of Satan and attributing that to the Holy Spirit. Sort of like people accusing us that speak in tongues, that being of the devil.That was another understanding I had of the unpardonable sin,Attributing works of the devil to the Holy Spirit.

Didnt mean to interrupt Rick and Bubba discussion.

Watchman what of the night
Re: Apostles [message #2869 is a reply to message #2868 ] Tue, 19 August 2008 10:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
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Apology accepted, don't let it happen again... Laughing

I think you're on to something there, Richard. In fact, could it be that imitating The Holy Spirit, using demonic powers, is blasphemy against The Holy Spirit.


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: Apostles [message #2870 is a reply to message #2869 ] Tue, 19 August 2008 10:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
grandom  is currently offline grandom
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Apparently Simon didnt know about Emma.

Re: Apostles [message #2874 is a reply to message #2863 ] Tue, 19 August 2008 11:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
grandom  is currently offline grandom
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James

i think you got Bubba in trouble..

JWBTI just called me and said that he is their collections guy and he signed a no moon light stipulation. Rolling Eyes
Re: Apostles [message #2876 is a reply to message #2874 ] Tue, 19 August 2008 12:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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Perhaps we are being a bit too serious here; here is a link that will provide some balance:

http://kennethcopeland.blogspot.com/

We should never become so introspective that we fail to see what is going on outside our circle.

Blessings,
William


I want to believe!
Re: Apostles [message #2877 is a reply to message #2876 ] Tue, 19 August 2008 12:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
grandom  is currently offline grandom
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Help me William

I couldnt find the donation part of this blog.

I want a sightation aerio plane 2.
Re: Apostles [message #2878 is a reply to message #2877 ] Tue, 19 August 2008 12:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
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I don't care whut anyboody sez, dat's funeee...



Yet tragically reflects THE TRUTH of what is going on in T.V. PREACHER LAND...


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: Apostles [message #2881 is a reply to message #2878 ] Tue, 19 August 2008 13:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
grandom  is currently offline grandom
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Any body read the pastors blog from Faith Assembly Lately???????
Re: Apostles [message #2885 is a reply to message #2881 ] Tue, 19 August 2008 15:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
grandom  is currently offline grandom
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Actually this is the one I thought was interesting...

but I have known for some time already that this was not to be the situation for the rest of my life. I know that I must always be prepared for the next step, and ready to follow wherever the Lord leads me.


Does this mean there will be an opening there??????????
Re: Apostles [message #2886 is a reply to message #2885 ] Tue, 19 August 2008 16:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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grandom wrote on Tue, 19 August 2008 15:20

Actually this is the one I thought was interesting...

but I have known for some time already that this was not to be the situation for the rest of my life. I know that I must always be prepared for the next step, and ready to follow wherever the Lord leads me.


Does this mean there will be an opening there??????????

I saw that and wondered the same thing...

I totally missed the quote that Hombre mentioned however; it must have been a case of mistaken phraseology... at least I hope so.

Back to your quote... looks like we are getting the Internet Apostles thing going just in time. We need to all be ready to set things in order in a moment’s notice. Our motto: Have Theology, Will Travel.

Blessings,
William


I want to believe!
Re: Apostles [message #2887 is a reply to message #2886 ] Tue, 19 August 2008 17:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
grandom  is currently offline grandom
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Back to your quote... looks like we are getting the Internet Apostles thing going just in time. We need to all be ready to set things in order in a moment’s notice. Our motto: Have Theology, Will Travel.

Maybe you covered this, but how do we decide weather you or Hombre

takes the first commission? Is one of you all the head apostle? I havent been keeping up.

Internet Apostle Int.
Re: Apostles [message #2888 is a reply to message #2887 ] Tue, 19 August 2008 17:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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I snuck in under the fence after you guys had it set up... so I don't know who is in charge. Wait a minute; we are all Internet Apostles, why should any of us submit to anybody else?

I'm with Paul here:

Gal 2:6 But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man's person:) for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me:

We are all islands... (I'm sick of the phrase "no man is an island".)

Having said all of that, we may end up following the one who has the best business card... so far, Hombre has us all beat!

Blessings,
William




I want to believe!
Re: Apostles [message #2889 is a reply to message #2888 ] Tue, 19 August 2008 19:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JWBTI  is currently offline JWBTI
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Ya know that Grandom only lives 45 miles from Warsaw....Just an hour drive...(Tho I haven't seen his buss card yet...)
He might be our man ?
Much wisdom doth come from all that gray hair.....


Ron
Re: Apostles [message #2891 is a reply to message #2889 ] Wed, 20 August 2008 09:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
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Ron wrote:

"Ya know that Grandom only lives 45 miles from Warsaw...Just an hour drive..."

Just an hour DRIVE? Oh no! Not gonna happen, Real APOSTLES walk; they walked in Jesus day and 'by george' they will walk today. Anybody sent forth from 'This Apostolic internet ministry' will walk just as the bible's example shows us to do. Anyone not in full compliance can turn in their business cards and ordination papers imediately.
Laughing

Don't be complaining, the rules are written right there in the contract you all signed,which Hombre drew up.... ya gotta read the fine print.
Laughing


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: Apostles [message #2894 is a reply to message #2891 ] Wed, 20 August 2008 10:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
grandom  is currently offline grandom
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I`m afraid to ask what steps we are going to have to go through to get our sigh-tation x10s approved.

By the way James. Wachu talkin bout walkin willis
Re: Apostles [message #2896 is a reply to message #2891 ] Wed, 20 August 2008 10:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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I too am a bit concerned... if we are authorized to use modern conveniences (cars and planes) which, at least on the surface seems reasonable given the fact that we are "internet" apostles, I'm wondering what is our position on smoke machines and strobe lighting in the meetings?

[Updated on: Wed, 20 August 2008 10:38]


I want to believe!
Re: Apostles [message #2897 is a reply to message #2894 ] Wed, 20 August 2008 10:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
grandom  is currently offline grandom
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I1m not crashin my sigh-tation into any dead church I dont care what youse guys say. Oh wait. Wrong country. Embarassed
Re: Apostles [message #2898 is a reply to message #2897 ] Wed, 20 August 2008 10:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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I think what he means is that sigh-tations are out unless we can use the engines from our voltswagons...

[Updated on: Wed, 20 August 2008 10:43]


I want to believe!
Re: Apostles [message #2902 is a reply to message #2896 ] Wed, 20 August 2008 10:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
grandom  is currently offline grandom
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james wrote on Wed, 20 August 2008 10:55

I just got a call back from the army surplus store, they have to have at least 50% down payment on the combat boots Hombre ordered,
plus they are out of and back ordering sizes 14-15's.



Tell them to plant a seed and they will be buried in combat boots. Smile
Re: Apostles [message #2904 is a reply to message #2891 ] Wed, 20 August 2008 11:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jisamazed  is currently offline jisamazed
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...In accordance with our beliefs, I hereby sanctify the driving of automobiles, provided that one understands the workings of them thoroughly. The application papers may be picked up in the church office, and after a supervised dismantling of said mode of transportation ( down to the last nut, bolt and washer ) and reassembly of the same, the application may be turned back into the office, provided the review of the 'understanding' process was deemed to be 'successful' by the authorized inspector and verified with his signature and seal. After this, a review by our transportation committee shall be conducted as a verbal and written inquisition which appointment shall be made in person. With a satisfactory performance and score, said operator of vehicle may perform essential but not casual duties with same under a probationary period of not less than 7 years. After the successful completion of this period, the vehicle shall be once more dismantled in full view of the licensing committee to insure that the vehicle has been maintained in strict accordance with our beliefs: not a touch of dust, nor of rust or engine gunk is allowable. If the vehicle is found to be in satisfactory condition and the operator has neither sweat of brow nor gestures of cross-eyed frown at this point, said vehicle shall be released to the operator under full perfunctory privileges of usage for a period of one (1) year, renewable each year thereafter for a sum equal to 10 % of his gross income, in addition to his/her tithing.

Sorry, I don't qualify. My minivan is only a 5-cylinder (originally 6) and is held together by about 16 cans of bondo. I will submit myself to the auspices of 3 of you who can instruct me how to replace the fuel injectors on the dash-side cylinders without having to take half the engine apart. Once it is clear that I have repented and I know how to perform that procedure, I will apply for credentials.

Or I can just order ordination papers for $30 from the Universal Church Association. I don't have to believe anything, I just need to pay the money and make a vague reference to God. You can get anything on line nowadays. That way I can marry people and be tax-exempt for any business venture I undertake. However, I wouldn't get to put "apostle" on my business card, so maybe I'll stick with you guys.


Amazed smitten astonished stunned floored blown away astounded shocked flabbergasted surprised wonderfully devastated awed shattered overwhelmed incredulous speechless sense of wonder at the love of God.
Re: Apostles [message #2993 is a reply to message #2803 ] Sat, 23 August 2008 11:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
grandom  is currently offline grandom
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Hardbones wrote on Sat, 16 August 2008 11:37

I vote to make us all here at Overcomers Online, Internet Apostles

Where do we line up? Smile

I'll get the info up this weekend. I did a study a few yrs ago.




Thanks Hardbones.

I feel in my capacity as unofficial keeper of the record on other apostles (tv evangelists etc)it is my duty to report on the divorce and remarriage of these characters and the ramifications of such behavior.

John Hagge divorced his first wife in 1975 and remarried his current wife, If I remember right they both had books out on What husbands should know and what wives should know or something of that nature.I guess experiece is a good teacher.
So lets see. Seem to be pretty affluent. Divorce not so bad for them.

Jim Bakker.Ah yes. Good ole Jim. He remarried now, gots a new gig going. Doesnt look like he`s destitute. Conclusion. Divorce not so bad.

Richard Roberts divorced his first wife and remarried. He was doing pretty good until the money scandels started showing up. So if he had`nt squandered church money. Divorce not so bad.

Paula White divorced her husband about a year ago. Havent heard anything about her being in a soup line.Divorce not so bad.

So internet Apostles. The question remains. Do those of us that are married stay that way or do we divorce for the cause? Twisted Evil



Re: Apostles [message #2994 is a reply to message #2993 ] Sat, 23 August 2008 11:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
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SOMEBODY... better hope their wife doesn't read that post.

You'll be living in that lightning struck garage by yourself...

Course you can alway install some nice tile floors...

Laughing

[Updated on: Sat, 23 August 2008 12:06]


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: Apostles [message #3022 is a reply to message #2993 ] Tue, 26 August 2008 12:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jisamazed  is currently offline jisamazed
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John Hagge divorced his first wife in 1975 and remarried his current wife, If I remember right they both had books out on What husbands should know and what wives should know or something of that nature.I guess experiece is a good teacher.
So lets see. Seem to be pretty affluent. Divorce not so bad for them.

Jim Bakker.Ah yes. Good ole Jim. He remarried now, gots a new gig going. Doesnt look like he`s destitute. Conclusion. Divorce not so bad.

Richard Roberts divorced his first wife and remarried. He was doing pretty good until the money scandels started showing up. So if he had`nt squandered church money. Divorce not so bad.

Paula White divorced her husband about a year ago. Havent heard anything about her being in a soup line.Divorce not so bad.

[COLOR=blue]Hardbones, you only discussed the tip of the iceberg. Divorce is prevalent among both charismatic and non-charismatic Christian "leaders" (for lack of a better term). I could name a few more, but it is not necessary to name names. It is almost expected that a person have some sort of divorce or sexual sin, confess it and "be restored", because we charismatics love the drama. Plus, we are supposed to sin so that grace may abound.

I know, I'm starting to sound cynical. Actually, I've been concerned about this matter for some time, but I don't like to make sweeping statements about all charistmatics (I am one), all non-charismatics or all TV evangelists. Some rotten potatoes spoil the entire batch, but there are many potatoes that are not rotten, and are very good. There are many men of God who are sound in their theology and live morally upright lives who don't play games with God. Most of them eschew the superstar mentality, so we don't have much exposure to them. But they are there.

Regarding divorce, the old "faith camp" does not have a good track record, either. It should probably be a separate thread, but does anyone have an idea why there has been so much divorce among former "faith camp" people? I know that some of you have experienced it yourselves. I was appalled when I went to a party for people from the old GR Assembly. About half of the people there had been divorced. Not exactly a group of overcomers, especially when I see some other "less spiritual" churches in which divorce is almost nil. /COLOR]


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Re: Apostles [message #3023 is a reply to message #3022 ] Tue, 26 August 2008 15:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sparkles  is currently offline sparkles
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Jae said: Regarding divorce, the old "faith camp" does not have a good track record, either. It should probably be a separate thread, but does anyone have an idea why there has been so much divorce among former "faith camp" people? I know that some of you have experienced it yourselves. I was appalled when I went to a party for people from the old GR Assembly. About half of the people there had been divorced. Not exactly a group of overcomers, especially when I see some other "less spiritual" churches in which divorce is almost nil. /COLOR]

I was at the same get together and my thoughts were ones of sadness and grief, that the devil had somehow gotten in and destroyed that which God had joined together. I sat and spoke with some who had a great influence on me in my early charismatic experience, ones that I still love, and they think they are happy in their miserable lives now, but remember the final chapter has not been written. Some of these will return to the Lord and serve Him. And some of the marriages will be restored, and the love that some of these had for their mates will return and their eyes will be opened. I am not prophesizing that, but I do believe it.
And really Jae, who cares if they were associated with the Grand Rapids group or not, because each one is responsible for themselves before God as to how they receive the Word of God, whether written or preached. If they want to blame someone for their lives all they need to do is go look in a mirror and stop always trying to blame Dr. Freeman. It is clear that all through the Bible man is responsible for the choices he makes, but people always want to put the blame on someone else. You know, the devil made me do it, it was my husband, it was my wife, or it was ....

You ask why there has been so much divorce among people who went to the Grand Rapids meeting or any meeting or church? I would say it was the choices they made and the doors they opened and some doors that never got shut. It grieves me to see some who are now separated and having had watched the slow progression downward.
But to you Jae, I would say take heed lest you fall, with your condemning condescending attitudes. I know of a nice christian family who seemed to have an excellent marriage. People no one ever thought would have problems, let along adultery. But somehow in a very subtle way, the devil got the door opened on a tiny crack. I tried to warn my friend, but to no avail. Gradually the door opened more and more until the unthinkable happened: adultery. Not just once, but for a few years until they got caught. Thankfully there was forgiveness and the couple is still together and seems to be doing fine. All it took was for the one person to let their guard down just a tiny bit. The devil doesn't play fair, and will do anything and everything to destroy or weaken christian marriages.

As one brother in the Lord said: I miss the old Faith Assembly days where you would go to church and be challenged and convicted. You would come away feeling good because you knew you had heard from the Lord.

Re: Apostles [message #3026 is a reply to message #3023 ] Wed, 27 August 2008 06:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jisamazed  is currently offline jisamazed
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Sageshroomer wrote on Tue, 26 August 2008 15:18

Jae said: Regarding divorce, the old "faith camp" does not have a good track record, either. It should probably be a separate thread, but does anyone have an idea why there has been so much divorce among former "faith camp" people? I know that some of you have experienced it yourselves. I was appalled when I went to a party for people from the old GR Assembly. About half of the people there had been divorced. Not exactly a group of overcomers, especially when I see some other "less spiritual" churches in which divorce is almost nil. /COLOR]

I was at the same get together and my thoughts were ones of sadness and grief, that the devil had somehow gotten in and destroyed that which God had joined together. I sat and spoke with some who had a great influence on me in my early charismatic experience, ones that I still love, and they think they are happy in their miserable lives now, but remember the final chapter has not been written. Some of these will return to the Lord and serve Him. And some of the marriages will be restored, and the love that some of these had for their mates will return and their eyes will be opened. I am not prophesizing that, but I do believe it.
And really Jae, who cares if they were associated with the Grand Rapids group or not, because each one is responsible for themselves before God as to how they receive the Word of God, whether written or preached. If they want to blame someone for their lives all they need to do is go look in a mirror and stop always trying to blame Dr. Freeman. It is clear that all through the Bible man is responsible for the choices he makes, but people always want to put the blame on someone else. You know, the devil made me do it, it was my husband, it was my wife, or it was ....

You ask why there has been so much divorce among people who went to the Grand Rapids meeting or any meeting or church? I would say it was the choices they made and the doors they opened and some doors that never got shut. It grieves me to see some who are now separated and having had watched the slow progression downward.
But to you Jae, I would say take heed lest you fall, with your condemning condescending attitudes. I know of a nice christian family who seemed to have an excellent marriage. People no one ever thought would have problems, let along adultery. But somehow in a very subtle way, the devil got the door opened on a tiny crack. I tried to warn my friend, but to no avail. Gradually the door opened more and more until the unthinkable happened: adultery. Not just once, but for a few years until they got caught. Thankfully there was forgiveness and the couple is still together and seems to be doing fine. All it took was for the one person to let their guard down just a tiny bit. The devil doesn't play fair, and will do anything and everything to destroy or weaken christian marriages.

As one brother in the Lord said: I miss the old Faith Assembly days where you would go to church and be challenged and convicted. You would come away feeling good because you knew you had heard from the Lord.




Regarding divorce: I can see how my previous words appear to be condemning toward those who got divorced. That was not my intent. My question is why was divorce so rampant among former "faith camp" people, but not in some "denominational" churches? We have to connect the dots. The poor fruit in the lives of many FA people should cause us to question how good the teaching really was. If a Baptist Church with 2nd-class Christians has almost no divorces, but 1st-class FA has many divorces, both before and after its collapse, maybe FA was not so superior. Certainly not its teaching on the family.

My wife grew up in the Lansing group in which many people left their spouses in order to "believe for their first spouse." It was insane. Did that happen in spite of HEF's teaching or because of it? I would suspect that his teaching on it changed over time, but I do know that at one time he made this statement: "People try to use Jeremiah 3 as an excuse to not believe for their first spouse." He went on to say that Jer. 3:1 is an OT passage that does not apply to that situation nowadays. That's pretty strong language implying that people should divorce their current spouse and try to go back to their first one. Other teachers perpetuated that idea. What a mess it made of some people's lives!

Regarding your statements about sitting under convicting teaching: My experience was that some of the teaching was Bible-based and refreshingly convicting. Some of it was very bad. Most of it was somewhere in between. I like expository teaching, and I developed a taste for it under Jim Brenneman's ministry. However, no ministry is perfect, and sometimes the teaching that came out of FA was just plain awful, and there was little to keep it in check. The teaching on divorce and remarriage (and subsequent divorce and "believing for your first spouse") was just one example.


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Re: Apostles [message #3027 is a reply to message #2993 ] Wed, 27 August 2008 07:04 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
jisamazed  is currently offline jisamazed
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Here is an interesting article by C. Peter Wagner on the Lakeland thing. He is trying to explain his actions, but he gives some insight into Todd Bentley's current situation.

An Update on Lakeland from Peter


August 25, 2008
I was in the San Francisco airport on my way to Singapore and Indonesia when the news of Todd Bentley's separation from his wife became public on August 12. When I arrived back home last week, I found that Doris had received and replied to around 1,700 emails and the stack of correspondence on my desk was unbelievable. It took me the rest of the week to catch up!

During the week I was gone, a major watershed occurred regarding the Lakeland situation as most of you would know. We are now on a new playing field. Lakeland Outpouring I, in which Todd Bentley was the main figure, is now history. Lakeland Outpouring II, in which Stephen Strader of Ignited Church is the main figure, has begun. The Outpouring started in a local church, went to a tent, and now is back in the local church. My suggestion is that we no longer use the term "Lakeland Outpouring" but rather distinguish between Lakeland I and Lakeland II because they are very different.

Let me talk a bit about the present, then revisit the past, then project the future.

The Present

It will sound surprising to some, but Lakeland II in Ignited Church, which you will remember was the original host church, is going very well. The big crowds and GOD TV, of course, are gone. Ignited Church seats around 700 in the main sanctuary and Stephen Strader reports that on Friday, Saturday, and Sunday evenings they have to use their overflow room. It is comfortably filled on week nights. The morning training sessions continue with a couple hundred every day, and teams continue to move daily into the streets of Lakeland spreading the gospel. Percentage-wise the dramatic miracles and healings occur nightly with probably a higher percentage of salvations on a daily basis. Support from local pastors is improving considerably. The most interesting report is that every night some 30 percent are first-time attenders, meaning that people are still coming to Lakeland from the outside to experience Outpouring II. A lady from our church with a severe chronic back problem went to Ignited Church and came home healed! Such a thing does not usually happen when a public figure suddenly goes down the tubes, so we need to take our hats off to the apostolic gifts and role that Stephen Strader is demonstrating for us.

Speaking of the public figure going down the tubes, Todd Bentley now carries the label of a liar and a deceiver. I'm sorry to mention it, but I felt personally deceived in the same way when Ted Haggard's sin was exposed and he was immediately removed from ministry. In the Lakeland I case, I am elated at the way things are turning out. The Revival Alliance with whom Todd was aligned on June 23 has kicked into action with a vengeance. Ché Ahn and Bill Johnson, like me, were overseas when things broke, but John Arnott stepped up to the plate and moved in apostolically. It has since become clear that Todd's Fresh Fire Board could not have handled the situation, Stephen Strader and Ignited Church could not, nor could any of his other close friends. Only the Revival Alliance could. I am delighted that they are not buying into typical charismatic soft morality, also called "greasy grace" or "don't touch God's anointed" or "mercy must triumph over judgment," phrases that have been used on other similar occasions as convenient religious cop-out excuses. They're proceeding in love, but it is tough love!

Since this is an update, I will share some of what I know about what is happening with Bentley, but not all because some things need more verification and it is up to discernment of Revival Alliance what and when this will be revealed. Suffice it to say that there is more than I am going to mention. First of all, Todd has been removed from public ministry until further notice. He has resigned from the ministry he founded, Fresh Fire, so he is no longer a part of that board. It has become clear that he indulged in periodic drunkenness. He has no intention at the moment of reconciling with Shonna, nor does she with him. Their marriage has been torn for years by his emotional attachment with at least one other female whose physical contact went beyond hugging and kissing and holding hands. Enough said-maybe more details will be revealed later-but it was clearly immoral. All of this was skillfully concealed by lying and by swearing close associates who had observed his behavior to secrecy. Stephen Strader, for example, knew nothing of this before June 23. Apparently some of his board members did, but they did not have the ability to deal with it.

The Past

I hope this is the last time I will have to address the past. It is now history. But as history is written, I feel that I have some responsibility of helping to have history be written accurately, especially since I have turned out to be a lightening rod for a number of severe criticisms.

Most of you know this, but let me reiterate to keep it on record. Previous to around the middle of June, my interest in Lakeland was about a 2 on a scale of 1-10. Then I got a call from Stephen Strader, the host pastor who was a member of ICA, which I lead, with a passionate appeal for apostolic intervention because chaos and confusion had begin to invade the Outpouring I. Toward the end of the hour we were talking, I received one of my infrequent direct words from God: "Alignment!" Just one word, but I knew I had a divine command and responsibility.

Once I knew that God had assigned me to initiate some sort of apostolic intervention at Stephen's side, I began praying and consulting with close colleagues. In less than two days I discovered that Todd Bentley had no formal, established apostolic alignment. I asked God how I should proceed, especially since I had no inclination to attempt an apostle-evangelist approach and expect that Bentley would submit to or even listen to what I had to say if I made an appointment with him in Lakeland. I felt that proper apostolic protocol would be for me to deal with one or more peer-level apostles to whom Todd had aligned apostolically. Since as yet he had no such alignment, I began asking God how such an alignment might come about. He directed me to my close friend, Ché Ahn, who himself is apostolically aligned with me and who also had been close to Bentley for years. Ché agreed that the best apostolic protocol would be for Todd to align with the Revival Alliance if he were willing. Ché called him and Bentley agreed to submit publicly to the Revival Alliance.

At this point some disagreements arose. I have already mentioned that I was consulting with several apostolic colleagues whom I trusted and whom I know trusted me. It is very necessary for us to understand exactly what the disagreement was about. It was about the most appropriate apostolic protocol for the occasion. After prayerfully listening to the different points of view with careful consideration of what was being said, the decision had to be mine. I believe that God's word to me about "Alignment!" had to be directional. I concluded that the best protocol was to do the alignment first, then deal with the issues that had been raised. My other friends disagreed and urged me to deal with Todd's problems first then do the alignment. I respected their point of view and I was very sorry that I had to follow God's leading for me personally instead of taking their advice. It was not a comfortable decision.

Now let me address what was behind much of their disagreement with my apostolic protocol. They were concerned that if I appeared on the platform with GOD TV, many viewers would interpret it as my personal endorsement of everything that was going on in Lakeland I, and since they were so closely associated with me, they would be implicated as well. This was a legitimate concern, and one I seriously wrestled with as I made my decision. If I went to Lakeland and presided over the alignment, some might well take it as an endorsement. It was a risk, I knew. Let me say personally that all my life I have been a risk-taker instead of a play-it-safe person, and I have taken many hits for it. As an example going to the jungles of Bolivia as a career field missionary when I was 25 with my wife and a one-year-old baby girl was a serious risk. Both that daughter and another who was born in the jungle without medical attention came close to losing their lives during those five years. And we were criticized for our decision to take the risk by many, including parents!

Closer to the Lakeland I situation, I have a private list of no fewer than 18 high-profile Christian leaders starting from the 1970s until Bentley for whom I took risks. For each one of them I took serious criticisms and in some cases personal hits even much more serious than I have received in this current case because I endorsed or partnered with or provided alignment for them. Some were typified as "crazy!" However, I can pretty much discern winners, although not always. My track record for the 18 is 72% emerged as real winners (you would know most of them), 17% ended up losers (including Bentley), and 11% indecisive. I'm sorry for the losers, but they prove I am not perfect. The point I am making is that I am no stranger to taking risks and living with the fallout.

One fallout from Lakeland I is that several have resigned from ICA and other organizations that I lead because they no longer want to be identified with me. Others are still upset. Still, believe it or not, I think that everyone involved is still my friend. We just disagree.

I want it understood that I did not go to Lakeland on June 23 for Todd Bentley. I had never met him personally. I had no knowledge of and little interest in his ministry. I went because I received an apostolic plea to help bring order to the confusion and chaos that was sweeping through the body of Christ worldwide because of the television. I went strictly for the body of Christ at the invitation of the host pastor of the Outpouring I.

The final question is: Was it successful? Looking back, I praise God for using me and others to help bring order to confusion, which is one of the chief biblical tasks of an apostle. Stephen Strader, who has been keeping records, affirms that the evil that the prince of the power of the air had been subtly introducing into the Outpouring I started to be exposed and unraveled the day after the alignment, June 24! Spiritually, this is very understandable. Just about every leader I knew had discerned that Lakeland I was a mixture of the godly and the ungodly. We were praying in one accord that the evil would be separated from the good. My take is that God had decided to answer these prayers and in order to facilitate His process, He assigned me and the Revival Alliance leaders and others who were with us to align Todd Bentley apostolically for the first time in his life. When we did this publicly, spiritual transactions took place in the invisible world that would not allow the enemy to maintain the veil of secrecy he had carefully placed over the Outpouring. The evil was exposed, Revival Alliance had the authority to deal with it, and the net result is that order is replacing chaos in the body of Christ.

In my section above on "The Present" I gave you some details. Believe me, they are only the tip of the iceberg as I just learned from a new phone call even as I was writing this paper. The proper apostolic structure, happily, is in place at the time of crisis!

The Future

It is now important to recognize that from now on we have a different playing field. Two separate things are going on. (1) The Revival Alliance is dealing with Todd Bentley and the fallout from his sin that has been and continues to be exposed. (2) I have told you previously about a group of 11 apostles that I have formed into the Lakeland Outpouring Apostolic Team. We no longer need to deal with Lakeland I and Bentley as such. However, we have a list of 24 serious issues that have emerged from that unpleasant experience which need to be thoroughly discussed with the conclusions circulated in the body of Christ. If you have seen Dutch Sheets' recent "A Statement and Appeal Regarding Lakeland" you will get a glimpse of some of the things that we agree need to become standard operational beliefs and practices, particularly in our charismatically-inclined evangelical segment of the church.

It will take time, but our Apostolic Team will get to work on the 24 issues after some of this present dust settles, and we will be back to you!

Blessings,
Peter






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