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Re: Apostles [message #3358 is a reply to message #3356 ] Sat, 13 September 2008 22:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
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HUH?

David, what are you saying? Are you now exposing this false prophetess, or trying to offer validation of her false prophecies over Todd. We have gone over this material months ago. I guess I'm curious, are you now able to discern this deception and are sharing this info with us, or are you still defending these people? If the answer is plain to see, forgive me, maybe I'm a little dense; but for clarity's sake would you please state your conclusion to the Lakeland/Todd Bentley deception.


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: Apostles [message #3360 is a reply to message #3358 ] Sun, 14 September 2008 02:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
watchman  is currently offline watchman
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James:

To be honest I am sorting through these "prophets" myself and have followed the information and ministry of Sharon Stone and Bill Hamon etc. I do not take what they say at face value and have pondered deeply over much of the stuff on the internet about them. I believe God has brought me to North Carolina to associate (however distant) with the likes of Rick Joyner, Bob Jones and others.

As far as Sharon Stone, I would hope that you temper your remarks about her a little more carefully because the kind of condemnation that you place is a little shocking coming from someone who never met her. I was at a prophetic conference that she ministered at, and I wish that you all would have met her. I don't see her doing anything outlandish to draw attention to herself, but I assure you that she did not miss a thing when it came to her prophesy concerning me that night. Many of her key prophesies about me have come true just now and they were given in 1994. She did over thirty prophesies that night and none sounded remotely alike. Also she and her associate Bill Hamon teaches morality and integrity plainly and I have confidence in their ministry.

I talked with Bob Jones at Morningstar Ministries two weeks ago and I have to say that although much strange wonders and statements are attributed to him, he seems to be pretty sane and accurate with spiritual things when I talked with him. I find things that concerns me about him and Rick Joyner, but I am not ready to say that they are fault prophets. I think that their judgment might be a little "gamey." It is right that prophet should expose the false because they have discernment to do it. Is their a prophet in the house? I am not impressed with the argument that I have heard that these men are false because they speak too much of angels. Have you heard that God is the Lord of Hosts? Can you count how many times angels were used in Revelations? Do you think that they might have many important functions in the last days? I think so. Am I concerned about discussions regarding EMMA? You betcha, but in my ministry God has brought me to the conclusions that angels are necessary and in use all around us.

If you had listened to Sharon S. the night of the "commission" of Todd Bentley, her prophesy was about the revival, not Todd. Do I believe the revival is a true one? Absolutely. Do I think Todd is an imperfect vessel to launch it? Absolutely. God appears to choose imperfect vessels every time for these moves of the spirit. Just look over Ernest Angely with his 30 foot stone angel he has placing a crown on his departed wife's grave, or Branham whose demeanor was that of a frightened mouse and whose arm turned into a kaleidescope when he laid hands on people.

Todd concerned me when I wrote you all of him before and he continues to to this day. God knows why he was chosen for this revival, but I believe he was. I have been to meetings where well known people were operating the gift of healing, but what I saw on 08/08/08 with Todd's ministry was just amazing. Yes, the head shaking concerns me greatly, but phenomena has been a part of the Holy Spirit experience from the time the disciples appeared drunk at Pentecost until now. I must say that I found it completely unnecessary to have Todd lay hands on me for healing(and wasn't too compelled to do it). I don't relish becoming one of the "writhing faithful."

I am very skeptical of all prophets--known or obscure and they need to prove their gift to me (every time they give one). As an aside, it is very unlikely that I even can tolerate any of these "prophets" because of my revulsion of the display that some of them make of themselves and their gift. I am a prophet, howbeit a somewhat quieter one. However, any Christian can discern for themselves whether a gift being demonstrated is of God. But, I don't find evidence that every Christian has the right or the authority to carelessly, openly call prophets false. Prophetic people should be the ones who expose prophetic people, and those in authority should expose them openly as God leads. Their is Christian leadership for that. That is why we are under authority in the first place as you well know.

I am sure that I will one day meet someone from the old HEF body that was prophetic but it hasn't happened for me yet. I believe prophesy should be proven. I take that back, HEF said that he would die and his followers would scatter and he was right on the money. The rest of the prophets the resided over the HEF debacle has proven nothing, for how could a prophet not see that coming? You all have to admit, discernment is not one of HEF follower's strong points. I sincerely wish God's blessing on them all.

David




Watchman
Re: Apostles [message #3362 is a reply to message #3360 ] Sun, 14 September 2008 14:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
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James:

To be honest I am sorting through these "prophets" myself and have followed the information and ministry of Sharon Stone and Bill Hamon etc. I do not take what they say at face value and have pondered deeply over much of the stuff on the internet about them. I believe God has brought me to North Carolina to associate (however distant) with the likes of Rick Joyner, Bob Jones and others.

GOOD FOR YOU, THAT SHOULD BE QUITE A JOB, SORTING THROUGH THESE 'PROPHETS'. AS TO BEING WHERE GOD WANTS YOU AND ASSOCIATING WITH BOB JONES, RICK JOYNER AND OTHERS??? THAT'S BETWEEN YOU AND GOD.

As far as Sharon Stone, I would hope that you temper your remarks about her a little more carefully because the kind of condemnation that you place is a little shocking coming from someone who never met her. I was at a prophetic conference that she ministered at, and I wish that you all would have met her. I don't see her doing anything outlandish to draw attention to herself, but I assure you that she did not miss a thing when it came to her prophesy concerning me that night. Many of her key prophesies about me have come true just now and they were given in 1994. She did over thirty prophesies that night and none sounded remotely alike. Also she and her associate Bill Hamon teaches morality and integrity plainly and I have confidence in their ministry.

DIDN'T YOU JUST SAY YOU WERE SORTING THROUGH AND NOT TAKING AT FACE VALUE WHAT THEY SAY? I GUESS THAT WAS THEN AND THIS IS NOW?

I talked with Bob Jones at Morningstar Ministries two weeks ago and I have to say that although much strange wonders and statements are attributed to him, he seems to be pretty sane and accurate with spiritual things when I talked with him. I find things that concerns me about him and Rick Joyner, but I am not ready to say that they are fault prophets. I think that their judgment might be a little "gamey." It is right that prophet should expose the false because they have discernment to do it. Is their a prophet in the house? I am not impressed with the argument that I have heard that these men are false because they speak too much of angels. Have you heard that God is the Lord of Hosts? Can you count how many times angels were used in Revelations? Do you think that they might have many important functions in the last days? I think so. Am I concerned about discussions regarding EMMA? You betcha, but in my ministry God has brought me to the conclusions that angels are necessary and in use all around us.

WHY WOULD YOU BE CONCERNED ABOUT EMMA IF YOU ALREADY BELIEVE JONES AND BENTLEY ARE 'SANE AND ACCURATE WITH SPIRITUAL THINGS'? OR DOES THAT FALL UNDER THE 'GAMEY' JUDGEMENTS PART OF THEIR MINISTRY?

If you had listened to Sharon S. the night of the "commission" of Todd Bentley, her prophesy was about the revival, not Todd. Do I believe the revival is a true one? Absolutely. Do I think Todd is an imperfect vessel to launch it? Absolutely. God appears to choose imperfect vessels every time for these moves of the spirit. Just look over Ernest Angely with his 30 foot stone angel he has placing a crown on his departed wife's grave, or Branham whose demeanor was that of a frightened mouse and whose arm turned into a kaleidescope when he laid hands on people.

ARE YOU ALSO ENDORSING ERNEST ANGLEY AS AN ANOINTED MAN OF GOD,(IS THE FACT THAT HE'S FROM N.C. HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH YOU MENTIONING HIM?) btw: I DID LISTEN TO SHARON STONE'S PROPHESY AT T. BENTLEY'S 'COMMISSIONING BY THE APOSTOLIC CHARLATAN'S'.

Todd concerned me when I wrote you all of him before and he continues to to this day. God knows why he was chosen for this revival, but I believe he was. I have been to meetings where well known people were operating the gift of healing, but what I saw on 08/08/08 with Todd's ministry was just amazing. Yes, the head shaking concerns me greatly, but phenomena has been a part of the Holy Spirit experience from the time the disciples appeared drunk at Pentecost until now. I must say that I found it completely unnecessary to have Todd lay hands on me for healing(and wasn't too compelled to do it). I don't relish becoming one of the "writhing faithful."

WELL, I DON'T SEE WHY YOU'D OBJECT TO BEING PART OF THE 'WRITHING FAITHFUL' IF YOU BELIEVE IT'S OF GOD AND IS "JUST AMAZING". btw: WHEN THE EARLY DISCIPLES APPEARED TO BE DRUNK, THEY WASN'T, BUT WE KNOW NOW TODD WAS. ANY CONCERN WITH THAT?

I am very skeptical of all prophets--known or obscure and they need to prove their gift to me (every time they give one). As an aside, it is very unlikely that I even can tolerate any of these "prophets" because of my revulsion of the display that some of them make of themselves and their gift. I am a prophet, howbeit a somewhat quieter one. However, any Christian can discern for themselves whether a gift being demonstrated is of God. But, I don't find evidence that every Christian has the right or the authority to carelessly, openly call prophets false. Prophetic people should be the ones who expose prophetic people, and those in authority should expose them openly as God leads. Their is Christian leadership for that. That is why we are under authority in the first place as you well know.

O.K. OUTSIDE OF THE FACT YOU'RE NOT MAKING A LOT OF SENSE, LET'S GET TO YOUR CONVICTION THAT "PROPHETIC PEOPLE SHOULD BE THE ONES WHO EXPOSE PROPHETIC PEOPLE..." AND YOU JUST STATED THAT YOU WERE A PROPHET, WHY HAVEN'T YOU EXPOSED THESE ,THESE,...UH, prophets? "AND THOSE IN AUTHORITY SHOULD EXPOSE THEM OPENLY AS GOD LEADS." AMEN! THEY SURE SHOULD, WHY HAVEN'T THEY? THESE APOSTLES, PROPHETS, WHO ARE SELF PROMOTING; SELF SERVING, SELF APPOINTED; FLEECING THE FLOCK OF GOD. HELLO! DAVID, THEY AREN'T DOING THEIR JOB,( THAT'S ASSUMING THAT THEY ARE THE LEADERS.) AND AS FAR AS THE PRESENT CHARSMATIC 'MOVEMENT' LOOKS, THEY ARE THE LEADERS OF IT, WOULD THE SPIRITUAL CONDITION OF 'THE CHARSMATIC CHURCH' TODAY BE A REFLECTION OF THE LEADERSHIP AND THE TOTAL LACK OF DISCERMENT DISPLAYED BY THE BLINDLY FOLLOWING FLOCK?

I am sure that I will one day meet someone from the old HEF body that was prophetic but it hasn't happened for me yet. I believe prophesy should be proven. I take that back, HEF said that he would die and his followers would scatter and he was right on the money. The rest of the prophets the resided over the HEF debacle has proven nothing, for how could a prophet not see that coming? You all have to admit, discernment is not one of HEF follower's strong points. I sincerely wish God's blessing on them all.

...DISCERNMENT IS A VERY STRONG POINT OF THOSE WHO RECEIVED THE TEACHINGS OF CHRIST THROUGH HEF. IN FACT,I HUMBLY STATE THAT EXERCISING THAT DISCERNMENT IS WHAT HAS KEPT MANY OF US FROM FALLING FOR THESE DECEPTIONS AND BEING CAUGHT UP BY THESE FALSE MOVES. MAYBE IF YOU WOULD TRY EXERCISING A LITTLE DISCERNMENT AND TESTING THESE PEOPLES STATEMENTS AND LIVES IN THE LIGHT OF GOD'S WORD, YOU MIGHT 'SORT' THROUGH ALL THIS MESS AND ARRIVE AT A DIFFERENT CONCLUSION.

why does the saying,'bailing out the ocean with a spoon' come to mind when trying to point one to the error of their ways?

" Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;" II Corth.3:5

another though: a true watchman watches and warns, where was the warning, watchman?

reply by: james

David



[/quote]

[Updated on: Sun, 14 September 2008 15:14]


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: Apostles [message #3379 is a reply to message #3358 ] Tue, 16 September 2008 18:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
watchman  is currently offline watchman
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Sometimes this forum is entertaining and informative and sometimes it is not. I have respect for your study Hombre. And, I wished to give you an alternate view instead of the ones you all agree upon. I agree with much of what you say, and most of the commission video makes me physically ill. I do not believe that all of those prophets are created equal. I am telling you that some of them have credibility. Um, the money for prophesy thingy was me echoing what was said previously and was a joke---not surprised you took it literally. All that I have written has been written without edit. Thanks for not mentioning it. Alas time is still limited for this.

OK Hombre, I have a question for you.

Branham
Woodworth Etter
Coe
Allen
Roberts
Hinn
Angely (maybe!!!??)
Bentley (Oh God no!)
Doowie

and all the rest...


Which one of these ever had the gift of healing.

God gives that gift as part of the gifts of the Holy Spirit, so which one operated in it??

Can you add any to this list and use them? Any at all?


Or is it your official stand that God does not give that gift at all?

Give me someone who has the gift of prophesy Hombre?

Any from that list?


Any at all?



HOMBRE are we still friends?


Is there no gift of healing, no prophesy in the last hundred years Hombre?



Does your continued support of HEF principles keep you from supporting even one endtime minister?


You see Hombre, HEF taught you a kind of unnatural fear of everyone that does not espouse the HEF doctrine itself. You can not find one because HEF eliminated all opposing views from the official FA bookstore. We can not have a patchwork quilt can we? HEF's doctrine is one of fear Hombre. Or you could take a small chance on any of the above ministers that untold millions considered powerfully gifted with healing and prophesy.

If you can not name any prophet or healing gift holder are you saying these gifts are not for today. Why that would be a denominational spirit of the most rigid kind!!!! I think God is easily able to equip his saints. I guess you think he did a poor job? What is it Hombre? You see Hombre, believing that only HEF had all the truth is not only contradictory to scripture for we are "all moderate," it is a grievous deception.

Sharon Stone got it right about Todd. You said so yourself. Your attacks on her are weak. Several of you said she was a false prophet and worse. She opposed the prophetic elect of the "commissioning." She snubbed their parade about Todd. If we can not recognize the spirit of God in others, are we even part of the vine? Was HEF part of the vine when he derided even the elect? Would he still be alive if he had not?


David




Watchman
Re: Apostles [message #3385 is a reply to message #3379 ] Tue, 16 September 2008 21:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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Hi David,

Your note is to Hombre but I'd like to offer a few points. (I hope the rest of those I owe notes to will be patient... I've been very busy.)

Quote:

Watchman wrote :
You see Hombre, HEF taught you a kind of unnatural fear of everyone that does not espouse the HEF doctrine itself. You can not find one because HEF eliminated all opposing views from the official FA bookstore. We can not have a patchwork quilt can we? HEF's doctrine is one of fear Hombre. Or you could take a small chance on any of the above ministers that untold millions considered powerfully gifted with healing and prophesy.

If you can not name any prophet or healing gift holder are you saying these gifts are not for today. Why that would be a denominational spirit of the most rigid kind!!!! I think God is easily able to equip his saints. I guess you think he did a poor job? What is it Hombre? You see Hombre, believing that only HEF had all the truth is not only contradictory to scripture for we are "all moderate," it is a grievous deception.


I realize that we mention HEF and FA a lot on here which is due in large part to our own background, and I'm sure that might seem a bit weird to others who poke their heads in for a look, but to my knowledge none of us believe that "only HEF had all the truth".

Secondly, and equally wrong, is your assumption that no one can listen to or receive anything from anyone but HEF. As it has been said over and over, none of us are stuck in the 80's. Of those you mentioned I would say some had the gift of healing. We could also pick out error in each of their ministries; does that make them apostates? I don't think so… at least not all.

Quote:

Branham
Woodworth Etter
Coe
Allen
Roberts
Hinn
Angely (maybe!!!??)
Bentley (Oh God no!)
Doowie


Notably absent from the list are Hagin, Copeland, Kenyon, to mention a few. Presumably you recognize that these men also had serious doctrinal issues concerning the doctrine of Jesus Christ which would leave one in the unenviable position of saying "yes, they had a gift of healing from God, but denied the substitutionary basis of our common salvation."

HEF embraced William Branham as a prophet of God, who later in his ministry got into serious error, or have you forgotten?

I know little about Woodworth/Etter so I can't offer any comment.

Coe and Allen, were both used of God but lacked an understanding concerning the biblical message; the crucified life.

Roberts, (I assume you mean Oral) was to my knowledge used greatly in the gifts of healing; at least until he attempted to merge his gifts with medical science. I don't recall any "miracles" after his conversation with the 100ft Jesus, but I could be wrong since I don't usually listen or follow too closely a ministry that I believe has departed from my understanding of biblical teaching. Correct me if I've miscategorized his ministry.

Hinn, to my mind, may have operated the gifts to a degree, but once again that old critical spirit has kept me from examining him closely in recent years.

The others don't even belong in the list with the possible exception of Dowie... his latter ministry was a bit frightening.

As I said, you could have mentioned many more, like the current crop:
Bickle
Wimber
Cain
Jones
Deere
Joyner


I've got a few tapes of Mike Bickle from the Kansas City Fellowship days, and have enjoyed his gift of teaching. I question his judgment on a bunch of things now, but early on he was an inspiration.

Wimber? Don't know a whole lot about him, but like with so many who lack a solid foundation, his later ministry actually did more harm than good.

Cain. Now he is an enigma. Before the allegations/revelations concerning homos*xuality, I would have placed him more in the Branham category... a prophet who shouldn't have attempted to teach... now I don't know what to think. Maybe this is a case where my discernment was lacking... (Humility is required in a servant of God!<grin>).

Jones? I wouldn't walk across the street to hear anything he has to say.

Deere? He has one of the best articles I've read that opposes cecessionist teachings (I've got it linked somewhere on this site), but he also espouses much that I think hinders the body of Christ from discerning truth from error.

Joyner. I've actually had him call me out during a service. Don't worry; he didn't lay hands on me! At the time I didn't know much about him, but rest assured, I didn't get too excited about it, nor did I place a lot of stock in what he said.

I say all of this, only as an attempt to show you that we are not all some monolithic group that you can make sweeping generalizations about.

It is interesting to note that all of the last group were close associates of each other and may still be, I don't know. However, in my opinion, this association has, at least in the case of some, proved to be detrimental to each of their ministries.

The Bible tells us to prove all things and hold fast that which is good. Most of us have attempted to do just that. Of course we reject the notion that holding fast to the underpinnings we received at FA (or through FA), has made us incapable of hearing or receiving the things that God is doing by His Holy Spirit today... our lament is that we see so little of it on display in the current crop of theologically challenged ministries that bespeckle our nation/world.

More on that later...

William

[Updated on: Tue, 16 September 2008 22:47]


I want to believe!
Re: Apostles [message #3389 is a reply to message #3385 ] Tue, 16 September 2008 22:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
watchman  is currently offline watchman
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If I had asked those questions of you William, I would have to stand corrected. That was well spoken. I always thought that I have belief in common with many of the persons on this forum.

But, understand William that the thoughtful look at those ministers on the list that you have made is completely different that the railing that I have received over Sharon Stone. I would even guess none of you have even heard of her until I mentioned her. I think that to state that she does not fit with the sometimes weird bunch that was displayed in that "commissioning" was all I was saying.


David


Watchman
Re: Apostles [message #3391 is a reply to message #3389 ] Tue, 16 September 2008 22:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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You are right, I had never heard of her. So she wasn't the head shaker on the video? I seem to remember another woman, maybe I'll take another look.

Blessings,
William


I want to believe!
Re: Apostles [message #3530 is a reply to message #3379 ] Mon, 29 September 2008 22:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
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To those interested, here is a website that exposes these different 'apostles & prophets', Bentley, Bickle, Cain, Jones, Sheets, Wagner, ect. Plus articles about The Toronto Outpouring, Kansas City group, Brownsville/Pensacola deception, and Lakeland. Just click on 'articles' on the left of the screen and click on the person you want to read about. Follow the different links and you'll find video's and written material on each one.

http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: Apostles [message #3583 is a reply to message #3530 ] Fri, 03 October 2008 12:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
watchman  is currently offline watchman
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Hi James:

I just wanted to relate to you what I found on the website that you linked to. This is a list of ministers that the administrator of this website believes are false prophets or worse:

False Prophets, Unbiblical Teachers, etc.
Reinhard Bonnke
William Branham
Paul Cain
Tony Campolo
Paul (David)Yonggi Cho
Gerald Coats
Paul Cunnigham
Gene Edwards
John Hagee
Christian Harfouche
Jack Hayford
Ruth Helflin
John Hinkle
David Hogan
T.B. Joshua
Bob Larson
Roberts Liardon
Maitreya
Arnold Murray
Carlton Pearson
Oral Roberts
Pat Robertson
Robert Schuller
Gwen Shaw
Don Stewart
Tommy Tenney
Bruce Wilkinson
Latest Deceptions
New Apostolic Reformation
Todd Bentley
Mike Bickle
John Dawson
Joy Dawson
Jack Deere
Francis Frangipane
Ted Haggard
Bill Hamon
Cindy Jacobs
Bob Jones
Rick Joyner
George Otis, Jr.
Dutch Sheets
Ed Silvoso
Richard Twiss
C. Peter Wagner
YWAM
New World Order
Other Articles/Related Issues
Pensacola "Outpouring"/Awake America!
Michael Brown
Steve Hill
John Kilpatrick
Quotes From Third Wave Leaders
Revivalism
Rightly Handling The Word Of Truth
Sandy Simpson Articles
Third Wave Doctrines
Toronto "Blessing"
John Arnott
Randy Clark
Colin Dye
Nicky Gumbel
Vineyard
John Wimber
Word-Faith Movement
John Bevere
Markus Bishop
Juanita Bynum
Morris Cerullo
Kim Clement
Kenneth Copeland
Paul Crouch
Creflo Dollar
Jesse Duplantis
Kenneth Hagin
Marilyn Hickey
Benny Hinn
Rodney Howard-Browne
Larry Huch
T.D. Jakes
Bishop Eddie L. Long
Clarence McClendon
Joyce Meyer
Myles Munroe
Steve Munsey
Mike Murdock
Joel Osteen
Rod Parsley
Peter Popoff
Fred Price
Oral Roberts
R.W. Shambach
Robert Schuller
Karl Strader
Robert Tilton
Paula White
Ed Young


If you were or I were a minister of some note, they would have looked up "stuff" on us and you would a denunciation of us on their website. They hate Charismatics of every stripe. I read stuff from this website myself but you must understand they hate what you stand for. Also their doctrinal statement is pure scripture so that leaves you with no idea what their doctrine is, because we obviously all read scripture differently. Do you believe that the Charismatic church is a false church as they obviously believe. Don't believe everything that you read...

David


Watchman
Re: Apostles [message #3585 is a reply to message #3583 ] Fri, 03 October 2008 16:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
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David,

Of the 81 different people listed as whatever title they go by; be it apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor, teacher, bishop, faith healer, televangelist, or owner of TBN; I've only heard of 42 of them (yeah, I know I'm not a very good charismatic tv show watcher.) and only listened to 23 of them. Some I believe are outright charlatans, robbing people by deception and lies. Others sometimes speak The Word and aren't as blatant in their deceptions. Some, at one time, probably was used of God. I think the wealth and praise of man has made the ones once used by God, drunk with power and important in their own minds. There are others who just plain don't know up from down, spiritually, and just run off emotions and feeling from the crowds they hang with. Then there's the 'apostles and prophets', I don't believe any of them are what they claim to be, from Todd Bentley to C. Peter Wagner and his group of merry men, er...apostles. btw: you said you were a prophet,( I'm not saying you aren't) but for about $650 plus attending a seminar or two, you could also be an apostle...
And to your question concerning the 'charismatic church', no, I don't believe it's false, but I believe much of the leadership over that 'movement' is false, off in error, teaching deception, and generally without a foundation. That's why they are so easily decived and always looking for something new and exciting. The church, as we know, are the people. But as the leadership goes, so goes the people. And the charismatic church is a train wreck, right now. That's not saying every church or member is messed up, just a whole lot of them.

[Updated on: Fri, 03 October 2008 16:24]


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: Apostles [message #4202 is a reply to message #3585 ] Sun, 16 November 2008 18:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
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According to the info I found about Oral Roberts,the amount he said God told him to raise was $8,000,000. It was 1987 in Jan. and he said God told him that he, God, would take him home if he didn't raise it by March 1. He said he had 3.5 mil. and needed 4.5 mil. On April 1 he announced that he had it, plus an extra 1.3 mil.( 1 month late )

It was in 1977 that he said a 900 ft. Jesus appeared unto him and told him to build a hospital.

In 1983 he said Jesus came to him in person and told him to find a cure for cancer.

IMO the jesus he was listening to was very confused, going from giving him the power to heal by the laying on of hands, to building hospitals. And if that wasn't contradictory enough, he tells him to find a cure for cancer?

The JESUS I see revealed in The Word of God heals without the aid of hospitals and sure doesn't need man to find how to cure cancer or any other affictions. The Jesus, by who's stripes I am healed, raised the dead by just His spoken word.

I don't know if Oral Roberts was used by God at one time early in his life or not, but I know for sure he hasn't been for the last 30 years. He teaches 'seed faith' for the false prosperity doctrine and milks millions out of people who fall prey to his false teachings and lies.


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: Apostles [message #4617 is a reply to message #3111 ] Mon, 29 December 2008 13:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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Sageshroomer wrote on Thu, 04 September 2008 09:31

It truly is amazing some of the deceptions that are out there in the charismatic world. And unfortunately there is alot of it creeping (no, make that running) into the mainline churches. If I remember right David Hogan visited the re-invented Faith Assembly, long after Brother Freeman had died, a couple times. I do not remember anyone giving testimony of any miracles done there. Somewhere I have an old tape of David Hogan that was passed out in the late 80's or early 90's and remember him telling a story of being in a McDonald's restaurant when it was really busy, but he did not have time to wait in line, so he started to speak in tongues out loud. Now this scared some of the people so then he was able to go to the front since people left. I believe he said he would do this when he was in a hurry. What a mockery of the wonderful gift of the Holy Spirit. Seems like all these people are closely linked together one way or another, like with Rodney Howard Browne, who brought the "holy laughter" to the "revival" in Toronto. I can remember him telling people he was praying for, to just put their mind in neutral, not pray, just laugh. Then he would have everyone just start laughing. There was even a part where someone would stand up front and lead everyone in "holy laughter." When people put alot of these deceptions together you end up with Toronto, Brownsville, Grand Rapids First Assembly, Lakeland, some churches in England, Africa, and only the Lord and the Devil know where else much of this is going on.


If you can believe some of the stuff on the Internet, a lot of Hogan's stuff cannot be substantiated... I remember being impressed with all of the 'miracles' when he spoke at FA.

Blessings,
William


I want to believe!
Re: Apostles [message #4666 is a reply to message #4617 ] Thu, 01 January 2009 07:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
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Just wondering William, when he was there at FA, was he there performing miracles OR, talking about what he had done elsewhere? That always bothers me, when people who claim to have the anointing to work miracles and heal, just go around to churches talking about what is happening somewhere else.( and usually getting a 'love offering') Was there no one there at FA in need of a miracle in their lives? Of course there was, even if they had prayed in faith(Mk.11:24)and received, by faith, that which they had asked God for.

As for being able to believe that which is written on the internet...Usually when I research something, especially anything to do with what a religous group or persons stand for, you can find one website exposing their errors or false doctrines, and another one proclaiming how wonderful they are.
Like with Lakeland/Bentley, even until the end there were those who insisted Todd Bentley was a man of God with the anointing to heal, accompanied by Emma, the angel. While the whole time there were those of us who was saying to anyone who would listen that this was a false anointing and not the working of The Holy Spirit. I'm thinking this is where discernment comes in, and lining up what someone says or does, with God's Word.


james


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: Apostles [message #4861 is a reply to message #4666 ] Tue, 13 January 2009 09:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
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Gary wrote:

" It seems like there are a lot of these manifestations in the south..."


That's funny, I guess Toronto, Canada IS 'south' of the north pole... Rolling Eyes Well, we are called the 'bible belt', maybe we should change it...

Your question made me wonder too, so I went to Fresh Fire Ministries website and read their lastest defense of Todd Bentley, it was written the end of Nov.08. I googled around trying to find any update on the Lakeland aftermath, but didn't find anything since about Sept. I guess someday there'll be a book written about it and then we'll know... Rolling Eyes

I read that Todd is under the direction of Rick Joyner and Bill Johnson in the Carolina's and is going to move there. I believe we can see where that's going...'apostle Bentley back in the saddle again...' OBTW: FFM will still take your donations while they're regouping and seeking a fresh vision from within their leadership. Of course they insist that the revival was of God and defend it, what else they gonna say? At least they, FFM, acknowledge Bentley was in sin, but defend his ministry.

Yep, the never ending thread... You are making me sleepy



james


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: Apostles [message #5239 is a reply to message #4666 ] Tue, 17 February 2009 08:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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Quote:

Just wondering William, when he was there at FA, was he there performing miracles OR, talking about what he had done elsewhere?


Sorry James, I just noticed your question from way back when.

I didn't see any miracles or any thing like that from Hogan, but he sure did lay it on thick when talking about them!

Blessings,
William


I want to believe!
Re: Apostles [message #5240 is a reply to message #5239 ] Tue, 17 February 2009 08:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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You did ask me that question, right? <grin>

Re: Apostles [message #5241 is a reply to message #5239 ] Tue, 17 February 2009 09:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
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Hey brother, it's O.K. at least you answered....Now what was the question?
Laughing

I hadn't heard of him until ya'll mentioned him, then I googled around...didn't get a positive witness in my spirit about his 'ministry'. And anyone I asked about him just said the same thing...it always was happening somewhere else, and he was just 'there' TELLING about it and collecting 'love offerings'...


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: Apostles [message #5243 is a reply to message #5241 ] Tue, 17 February 2009 10:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mark L  is currently offline Mark L
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Hank Hannegraffs people went into Mexico? Central America? can't remember looking for evidence it was true. Evidently they didn't find any. At the time I just chalked it up to non charasmatic non believing xians not wanting to find anything. with the benefit of hindsight now I'm not so sure. Steve Hill took him to Brownsville which is where Hannegraff heard about him.
Re: Lakeland Revival??? [message #5275 is a reply to message #1939 ] Sat, 21 February 2009 07:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mark1124  is currently offline mark1124
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Well, you folks have been talking about Todd Bentley, someone who I never knew about until reading the posts here. My curiosity was aroused so I went on youtube and found this. I can barely watch this guy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yN9Ay4QAtW8. The warning throughout the video speaks for itself.

Mark Razz


Mark S. Scaliotti

"Faith is trusting God for all things, in all things, and through all things, no matter what."
Re: Lakeland Revival??? [message #5278 is a reply to message #5275 ] Sat, 21 February 2009 08:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
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Hey Mark,

You didn't miss a lot, other than several months of false prophecies, false anointings, false apostles, displays of angels of light, doctrines of demons, lies and people being deceived by the 100's of thousands. But in the end it all collapsed because it wasn't of God, and Bentley was exposed as the man he really was.[what's tragic is the lives that was adversely effected by it all, and the damage it did to 'christianity' and how those on the fence view christians]

It was sad for the 'charismatic movement', because it exposed the lack of grounding in The Word that the majority of those getting sucked into this deception had. They were 'looking' for excitement, signs, wonders, and failed to test the spirits or see if what Todd Bentley was saying and doing, lined up with God's Word.

[Updated on: Sat, 21 February 2009 08:33]


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: Lakeland Revival??? [message #5282 is a reply to message #5275 ] Sat, 21 February 2009 11:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mark1124  is currently offline mark1124
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Hey I'm still a relative newbie at this, lol.

Did Jesus say something like straining at a nat and swallowing a camel? Laughing He never did say anything about straining at a period! Very Happy

J/K brother. Thanks for pointing it out. I'll have to make sure I do this legalistically or I will get rebuked again Very Happy

BTW I was watching a bunch of videos on Youtube this morning about this guy Bentley and boy is he a freak!

Thank the Lord that we have a group of people here that is so well grounded in the Word that nobody fell for this deception.
I will still watch some of the videos just to see what everyone was talking about...maybe Shocked.

Good thing that I believe in divine healing because this guy makes me sick! Laughing Laughing Laughing


Mark S. Scaliotti

"Faith is trusting God for all things, in all things, and through all things, no matter what."
Re: Lakeland Revival??? [message #5303 is a reply to message #5282 ] Sat, 21 February 2009 16:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mark1124  is currently offline mark1124
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Like my post indicated, Hombre, I was just joking about that. I know it wasn't a rebuke. I was poking fun at my faux pas.

Meedless to say that watching this goof was educational indeed.
It makes me glad that I didn't get duped into this maniacal lunatic's nonsense.

More later.

Mark


Mark S. Scaliotti

"Faith is trusting God for all things, in all things, and through all things, no matter what."
Re: Apostles [message #5328 is a reply to message #3356 ] Mon, 23 February 2009 10:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
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Actually this is the same thread... Laughing It's funny because it's been going so long it's turned from Lakeland Revival/Todd Bentley thread into Apostles somehow... Reminds me of the Energizer Bunny... Laughing

Anyway, Sharon Stone is the woman David 'watchman' said prophecied over him and it all came true, he said. We did a pretty thorough examination of her back in September. She and Cindy Jacobs have prophesies posted on websites if you google them. She's part of the self promoting, modern day group of prophets/apostles, who go around having 'conferences' and 'seminars' on how to become a prophet and an apostle (of course you must PAY to attend and receive this stuff, thus the comments about how much someone would 'pay' for a prophesy.)


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: Apostles [message #5695 is a reply to message #5328 ] Fri, 08 May 2009 18:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
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I saw something today that I found to be interesting, and it made me think of Todd Bentley( whom I've not thought too much about lately ). The most popular name given for a baby girl in the year 2008 was, drum roll.......EMMA....for real!

Now I wonder, just how many people WAS caught up in the Lakeland/Bentley Revival. Surely it's just a coincidence, but when I saw the name Emma, I couldn't help but think of Bentley and his 14 ft. angel, Emma.

Now if the most popular name for a baby boy had been Todd, I'd have really been impressed...It wasn't, it was Jacob. Smile


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: Apostles [message #5748 is a reply to message #5695 ] Tue, 19 May 2009 10:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
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Todd Bentley

Brother Grandom recently shared with me a web site of Rick Joyner, Morning Star Ministries, where there are updates on Todd Bentley and the restoration process that's designed to get him back in the ministry. The link is: http://www.morningstarministries.org/Publisher/Article.aspx? ID=1000045589 If you'll notice at the bottom of the page, Fresh Fire Ministries had relocated to SC where Rick Joyner's headquarters is located..hummm. And there is info on how the 'partners' and faithfull followers of Bentley can contribute and make donations to FFM once again...

You can watch videos with him and Joyner, and the 'restoration' of Bentley. First,let me say that I believe in restoration ( Gal. 6:1 ) and I believe we should have compassion for all people...BUT, as is evident by reading these comments by Joyner, there has been no repentence. Because repentence would be a turning away from the sin, what sin, one may ask...The sin of adultery( or as Joyner tries to sugarcoat, premature relationship ) Todd has divorced his wife and has married the woman whom he had been commiting adultery with. A minister of God is disqualified from the ministry when he commits adultery. And for a person to be restored unto God, FIRST, there must be repentence, and repentence is turning away from the sin, and continuing in it no longer. One can not be restored unto God as long as they've not repented.

I believe these men who have decided to 'restore' Todd Bentley into the ministry, are doing it for their own selfish reasons. There is a huge amount of ego and power involved with these 'revivals' and the worldwide exposure of the 'apostles and prophets' and those who hang onto the fringes of the 'wave of revival'. Not to mention God TV, and the money generated. I believe, as evidenced by the notation of where to send money and the relocation of FFM to NC, that this is all about the money. It's getting the 'cash-cow' back up and running, reguardless of what sin he's living in. Oh, Todd also mentions he's working with a writer to put together a 'book' on what happened in Lakeland as well as 'his' ministry...Can you spell best seller?

I hope there are none reading who are caught up in this deception, but in case there are, please understand this, we as Christians are supposed to be forgiving and compassionate, this isn't about that. I hope Todd Bentley does repent and is restored to God if he's a Christian, and if he's not, then I hope he's saved. But this is about the warning to deceived Christians, who because of a lack of grounding in The Word of God and teaching of the Truth; have bought into this mindset that says we should give people another chance and God's Word is too harsh and judgmental. It is a 'love boat' mentality and the enemy is deceiving many with it. God's Word is specific as to the qualifications of a minister and in no way does Todd Bentley qualify...and there's nothing Rick Joyner can do to change that.

I just wonder what the editor of Charisma magazine will have to say about this...has anyone learned anything from all this?

[Updated on: Wed, 29 July 2009 09:29]


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: Apostles [message #5749 is a reply to message #5748 ] Tue, 19 May 2009 15:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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I think you hit at the heart of the problem when you said it may be for
selfish reasons...

Quote:

James wrote: I believe these men who have decided to
'restore' Todd Bentley into the ministry, are doing it for their own
selfish reasons.


I went back and listened to the Youtube video, the second one about 7
minutes in, where Joyner is talking about this being 'just the beginning'.
He states that Bentley has other wells that he will 'unstop', other
cities, other places, where he will minister. Joyner goes on to
'prophesy' that there is 'longevity' to his ministry, and that these wells
that will be unstopped will catch on fire.

Pray tell how this is to be fulfilled unless Bentley is restored to the
ministry? Of all people, Joyner knows that his own credibility is on the
line after making such bold statements. In fact, all of those 'prophets'
at that meeting have a vested interest in proving not only that the
Lakeland revival was 'a move of God', but that Bentley himself is 'of
God'. They have no chance of that if Bentley quietly fades into the
background.

Blessings,
William



Re: Apostles [message #5750 is a reply to message #5749 ] Tue, 19 May 2009 16:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
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I agree, William, they have their credibility and pride at stake. I'm thinking there's nothing Bentley could have done that they wouldn't have overlooked. I mean, how many things worse can a 'Christian' minister do, than commit adultery and be a drunk? Of course, Jesus didn't really mean for us to take His Word literally, nobody's perfect, and who whould expect us to be? Rolling Eyes

" Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." ~Mt.5:48 Jesus' words....to us.

I don't know the background of the apostolic 'team' that 'commissioned' Bentley, but if they are willing to overlook these disqualifications, plainly taught in The Word of God, then maybe he's not the only one living this type lifestyle.

" This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.

A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;

One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity." ~I Tim. 3:1-4

They ALL have a vested interest in him, God TV; the prophetic community that has uttered great and swelling words; the 'restoration' and 'commissioning' teams; as well as Fresh Fire Ministries...both in the way of credibility and financially.

I really am amazed that so many people buy into this watered down version of the gospel...then again, it's so much easier to sell. And who wants to spend all their time with their nose stuck in The Bible trying to find out what God really says, when one can just follow the flowing of the spirit and go to a meeting with thousands of other people, and 'feel good', see a man putting on a display of signs and wonders and get caught up in the excitment of it all, never questioning if it lines up with The Word of God...


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: Apostles [message #5751 is a reply to message #5748 ] Tue, 19 May 2009 17:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
grandom  is currently offline grandom
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james wrote on Tue, 19 May 2009 10:07

Todd Bentley

I just wonder what the editor of Charisma magazine will have to say about this...has anyone learned anything from all this?




Actually James they are well aware of this. It was through the links on their web site that I was able to find this article.

I have not been impressed with that magazine because if memory serves correct they were pushing the Lakeland deal.
They have columns by some of the TBN crowd like Joyce meyers etc.

I dont think you will see an out cry from them.

Its pretty much like christian book stores now days. Outside of them selling the Bible there really isnt anything much offered promoting the Lord.

Its mostly what can God do for me.

Re: Apostles [message #5752 is a reply to message #5751 ] Tue, 19 May 2009 19:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JWBTI  is currently offline JWBTI
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I would not put too much trust in Charisma Magazine. It was born out of the
Discipleship, Shepherdship errors of the 1970’s. Don Basham, of the Florida
Four or Five, was Editor of the magazine for years. That error has never died,
You can find it, in almost any large church today.
Terms like: Accountability, submission, group leaders it’s still out there.
Some of the terminology has changed but it’s still the same Bondage ! All lead by
Mans intellect and desire to rule over others and Not The Leading and Will of the Holy
Spirit.
Todd is accountable to Rick Joyner and is under submission to his authority.
I wonder where Jesus fits into this plan ?
I wonder who Rick Joyner is under submission to ?


Ron
Re: Apostles [message #5754 is a reply to message #5752 ] Tue, 19 May 2009 19:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
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I don't put ANY trust in Charisma Magazine, I was just saying that as a way of reminding us of what Lee Grady wrote about a year ago. In the first article he wrote, after visiting Lakeland, he was in Bentley's corner. Then later on he wrote an article in which he started back-pedaling; and finally when it started becoming apparent to even the blinded religious charasmatic community, that something was wrong...he wrote about where were the watchmen and questioned the apostolic commissioning team; too late, the animals were already out of the barn.

That's why I raised that question, has Mr. Grady learned anything and what will be his response to these latest developments...will he stand up against the 'prophets' and 'apostles' and expose this as it really is, or suck up and say what will his readers will want to hear...after all, his priority is to sell magazines.

I would say, based on what he has embraced and 'prophecied', that Rick Joyner is under submission to the leader of the end time false religion movement...and that ain't Jesus.


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: Apostles [message #5755 is a reply to message #5749 ] Wed, 20 May 2009 10:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
grandom  is currently offline grandom
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As I was waiting on the Holy Spirit this morning I heard Him ask me, What is your opinion of

Todd Bentley the man? Do you see him as a tattooed freak that should burn in hell or do you see him as

A potential brother in the Lord in need of salvation? That caused some very heavy soul searching. It is so easy to write off unsaved people especially when they have deceived so many in the guise of ministry.

How did the Lord see us before salvation. I don't think it was a very pretty picture. Look at the descriptions

In the bible about what He thought of Israel when they sinned and turned their back on Him.Or even look at what He thinks of us when we feel we are righteous in our own stead. I believe He said they are as filthy rags and from our teachings we know the meaning of filthy rags. The most despicable meaning imaginable.

I think some times we get so full of ourselves that it`s impossible for any one to see Jesus in us.

What if Jesus allowed Mr Bentley a Damascus road experience. What would our reaction be? I personally see no restoration for his ministry as others have indicated he has disqualified him self from ministry though his life but he has not disqualified him self from salvation. Unless he has committed the unpardonable sin and that is not for me to judge.

Are we to be wary of people like him? Absolutely.

Not only wary but to warn of deception, but then we are to seek the Lord on there behalf IMO.
Okay brothers and sisters. Fire away. Show me where I`m wrong.

Luke 6:35
Re: Apostles [message #5756 is a reply to message #5748 ] Wed, 20 May 2009 11:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
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How could someone show you that you're wrong, when you're not? Who among us would want to 'fire' away at you, anyhow? You're probably wearing a kevelar vest, anyway... Smile

If I may quote myself...

"First,let me say that I believe in restoration ( Gal. 6:1 ) and I believe we should have compassion for all people...BUT, as is evident by reading these comments by Joyner, there has been no repentence. Because repentence would be a turning away from the sin, what sin, one may ask...The sin of adultery( or as Joyner tries to sugarcoat, premature relationship ) Todd has divorced his wife and has married the woman whom he had been commiting adultery with. A minister of God is disqualified from the ministry when he commits adultery. And for a person to be restored unto God, FIRST, there must be repentence, and repentence is turning away from the sin, and continuing in it no longer. One can not be restored unto God as long as they've not repented."

"I hope there are none reading who are caught up in this deception, but in case there are, please understand this, we as Christians are supposed to be forgiving and compassionate, this isn't about that. I hope Todd Bentley does repent and is restored to God if he's a Christian, and if he's not, then I hope he's saved."

my answer:

I believe that's a scriptural position to take, I DO hope he is saved...or gets saved...along with untold millions of others who profess to be Christians, but without the fruits of salvation.

What I dread to see happen, is for him to pop back up with this false revival and stuff (that we went over and over last year) and draw in more deceived Charasmatic Christians who learned nothing from what happened in Lakeland. And are afraid to apply the Bibical standard to test and see if this 'ministry' is of God...because they are afraid to make a 'judgement' of the fruit of ones life based on The Word of God.

Compassion and mercy, of course(and I don't see the tattoo's as keeping him out of heaven)for him as an individual...


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: Apostles [message #5757 is a reply to message #5755 ] Wed, 20 May 2009 11:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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I don't see anything wrong with what you've stated. It would be wrong if
we didn't desire to see the man walking in the benefits of the gospel
message!

I do think that there is a gray area that we might be missing though, and
it is this: (I welcome any who disagree to offer more wisdom in this
matter, because I certainly don't claim that I'm settled on this issue!)

Both you and James have clearly indicated that you believe he has
disqualified himself from ministry. Is there a scenario in which you think
he could be ever be qualified in the future?

I think you all know my position on ministry and eldership, and that I see
distinctions between these groups. In other words, I see the ministry
gifts as just that, gifts, and I view eldership more in the light of
rulership within the Church. That may color my opinion a bit, but even if
you all don't see those same distinctions -- would you forever limit his
involvement in *any* type of ministry within the Church? (i.e. healing
gifts, prophecy, etc.?)

I know that we are speaking to a specific situation, but can our position
be broad enough to include more general situations that arise in the
Church?

Think about this: What if Bentley (I'll use him specifically but think
about it in a general way)... what if he was not saved, and then became a
Christian at some point in the future. Would he then still be
disqualified? I'm guessing the answer would be yes with regards to
eldership, but no when you speak of his ministering the gifts. But if you
don't see distinctions between ministering the gifts and eldership, is he
disqualified from all?

Are there universal 'rules' that would prohibit some from involvement in
ministry based upon things that were pre-salvation?


Just thinking out loud...

Blessings,
William


Re: Apostles [message #5758 is a reply to message #5756 ] Wed, 20 May 2009 11:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
grandom  is currently offline grandom
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james wrote on Wed, 20 May 2009 11:00

How could someone show you that you're wrong, when you're not? Who among us would want to 'fire' away at you, anyhow? You're probably wearing a kevelar vest, anyway... :
..

Oh man that hurt. Every one knows I`m just a pussy cat. Sad

Getting back to repentance, your right James. It`s a complete turning away from sin. I think all to often people think they have repented but they havent turned away.They havent put the axe to the root of the tree of sin. When ever a branch comes forth ,say lust or bitterness or whatever they cut that branch off so other christians cant see that branch coming forth again. So with each new branch that comes out they cut it back. If we dont die to self and keep allowing the flesh to have it`s way then repentance has not truely happened.

Mat 12:33 Jesus said a tree is know by it`s fruit. If it`s fruit is not good then the tree is not good. So can we tell if a person is truely repentant. The Bible says by their fruit you shall know them.
Re: Apostles [message #5759 is a reply to message #5757 ] Wed, 20 May 2009 11:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
grandom  is currently offline grandom
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William,

If we were to say that Bently was not saved and now gets saved I would agree with you that he is disqualified from a leadership role if you will. If we say that he is disqualified from ever ministering any gifts, what hope is there for any of us to minister. We all were the children of wrath at one time.

So if we apply that to Bentley and not ourselves the I think we are sadly mistaken.Is there certain sins in your estimation that would preclude ever ministering in any gift?
I dont see general rules that one can apply in operating in the gifts. After all the gifts are just that and God can soveriegnly use people as he sees fit. I dont think He would violate His own word though when it comes to what He has stated as the requirements for leadership or eldership.

Some could argue that teaching in the church is leadership. If that were true then would not all of us be disqualified from teaching. All to often I think we equate the building as the church and not the people. Jesus didnt die for the building. He died for His church.

Thats my reaction off the top of my head, which by the way we have to do in a lot of instances dealing with questions.

Maybe after some more serious thought I will change but that remains to be seen.
Re: Apostles [message #5760 is a reply to message #5758 ] Wed, 20 May 2009 16:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
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William, both you and Grandom raise thought provoking questions, as well as making points that cause one to think.

I don't have at my disposal any teaching in this area, besides The Bible. I frankly don't recall what Bro. Freeman taught, except to believe that what I believe, is what I was taught by him. I think there is a difference between what you William, term as eldership(in my mind I always think, 5-fold...are we in agreement that they're the same?)and the ministry gifts. I believe we all agreed on that when we were having our discussion on women in leadership roles.(although, to be candid, I never fully understood exactly were everyone stood on that)
I believe there's a difference between a prophet,( Isaiah ) and a member of the body who The Lord gives a word of prophecy to for the body.(any of us). I believe there's a difference between a MAN, called by God to teach the body,(HEF) and a person within the body who might be 'gifted' to share or teach on a more personal level with younger women or children(women). I also believe that only MEN are called to the leadership(eldership/5-fold) positions of...Apostle, Prophet, Pastor, Teacher, and Evangelist. I futher believe that the 'gifts' of ministry are given by The Holy Spirit unto both men and women, within The Body of Christ; healing, helps, miracles, discernment, interpreting tongues, knowledge, wisdom, faith, ect...

So, back to Todd Bentley, could he ever become 'qualified' to be in the 5-fold again(I don't think he ever was) based on the fact that he has been the husband of MORE than one wife...NO, not according to what I see in scripture...can you show me differently?(btw: is there anyone who thinks one can be a 5-fold minister/eldership role having had more than one wife?) Now as to could he ever be used in the body in 'spiritual gifts'(going on the assumption that he's not saved and someday will be), that certainly would be up to The Lord, but I believe I'd sure examine the fruit of his life and the manner in which he was ministering those 'gifts'.( no BAMMM...and 14 ft. angels telling him to kick folks in the face)
IS IT POSSIBLE? Well, The Word of God says with God ALL things are possible.
Now to expand that to general applications, of course, that's what Grandom was saying, I think, we've all came from lives of sin and rebellion and it's only by grace we stand...but those qualifications apply to ANY man...and I see no exceptions.


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: Apostles [message #5761 is a reply to message #5760 ] Wed, 20 May 2009 17:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
Messages: 1186
Registered: January 2006
Senior Member
Administrator
Without opening up the same can of worms again, let me briefly state where
I think we disagree on the eldership thing.

I don't think the 5-fold ministry is to be *automatically* equated with
the ruling eldership.

This doesn't mean that the ruling eldership isn't comprised of the 5-fold
ministry... I would think that a ruling elder in the Church would
generally be from those with the 5-fold gifts.

That is a far cry from saying that all of those who have the 5-fold gifts
are are automatically ruling elders within the Church/Assembly.

Regardless of whether or not you agree with the above, we both end up at
the same place when we consider the qualifications for eldership.

Your view of eldership is expanded to include all of the 5-fold gifts,
while I have a more narrow view as to who the ruling elders are... my view
doesn't include *all* of those who are, or claim to be, endued with 5-fold
ministry gifts!

This really is a pretty moot point, at least for me... I know of very few
teachers and pastors, fewer evangelists, and no prophets or apostles.
And while there may be some good ruling elders out there I don't know any
well enough to vouch for them!

I'm not going to argue if someone has a bunch of five-fold-ers in their
Church and wants them all to be ruling elders. Heck, I might even join a
Church that had an abundance of 5-fold ministry types!

So I guess the only other point would be the one concerning "husband of
one wife", and I'm not going to argue that it could mean husband of
one-wife-at-a-time, although I have heard that as a possible
interpretation.

Interestingly enough we had one 5-fold minister at FA who took the former
position and unless my memory is very faulty, remained a 5-fold minister
after he remarried... (presumably taking the later position, although I
never heard him say that he had changed his interpretation.) Not that his
experience has any authority as to making it right... just throwing it in
as an interesting side-note.

Grandom, I believe it was, mentioned Joyce Meyers... now before you tar
and feather me, let me preface what I'm about to say with this: I know
almost nothing about her ministry and cannot speak specifically to her
situation, so I'm only speaking in generalities... okay?

Let's say she had the gift of exhortation (Rm 12). Would you consider her
out of line to utilize that gift in meetings that are outside of the local
Church? For example, let's say she has a local church that she attends.
She's not an elder... (I don't know if she is or if she isn't but for the
sake of the discussion, let's say she is not in any leadership position in
her local Church.) Would you consider that the Bible forbids her from
speaking to large audiences (including men), or not?


Got to run...<grin>

Blessings,
William

Re: Apostles [message #5762 is a reply to message #5752 ] Wed, 20 May 2009 18:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
Messages: 1186
Registered: January 2006
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Administrator



On Tue, 19 May 2009, Ron wrote:

>
>
> I would not put too much trust in Charisma Magazine. It was born out of the
> Discipleship, Shepherdship errors of the 1970&#8217;s. Don Basham, of the Florida
> Four or Five, was Editor of the magazine for years. That error has never died,
> You can find it, in almost any large church today.
> Terms like: Accountability, submission, group leaders it&#8217;s still out there.
> Some of the terminology has changed but it&#8217;s still the same Bondage ! All lead by
> Mans intellect and desire to rule over others and Not The Leading and Will of the Holy
> Spirit.
> Todd is accountable to Rick Joyner and is under submission to his authority.
> I wonder where Jesus fits into this plan ?
> I wonder who Rick Joyner is under submission to ?
>
> --
> Ron
>

Hello Ron,

I've seen the same sort of thing... like you said, they change some of the
terminology but in many cases they don't even bother. I still hear people
ask "who is your covering?"

So often there isn't any difference between religious "power" and worldly
"power". They want it so badly, and they can't get enough of it. It is a
disease... once they have it, they'll do anything to keep it. Sure, they
might temporarily cede it to their "restoration coach" but they only do
that for the ultimate end of getting it back. They won't go even that far
if they can convince enough people that their sin wasn't really that bad
given the burden that they were under at the time, you know, the stress of
the ministry.

Blessings,
William

Re: Apostles [message #5763 is a reply to message #5761 ] Wed, 20 May 2009 19:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
Messages: 1928
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL
Senior Member
William, you're talking to somebody that ain't got no dogs in the 'women in charge' fight. I don't have women in my life pushing people like Joyce Myers or wanting to run churches( not inferring that ye do, just stating where I'm coming from )I was speaking of what I believed the NT church should be like, not what is out there now, for the most part. I don't know any apostles or prophets either, and I don't think as a general application, apostles, prophets, and evangelist are usually in 'elder leadership positions' in local assemblies. I would think if a church/assembly was fashioned after the NT example, the pastor/teacher would be considered in a 'elder leadership role'. So no, I don't think that 5-fold is automatically equated with the ruling eldership. And I'm not concern with who 'claims' to be whatever, I'm speaking of those appointed by God.

As for Joyce Myers, no, I don't think she should be doing what she's doing. But I could go down the list of 'TBN' televangelist, the ones David/watchmen listed back last fall, I don't think there's ANY that I have seen or heard that lines up with The Word in what they teach, preach, or their 'rock star preacher' lifestyles.

And the one-at-a-time wife theology? Well yeah, there are hundreds of 'possible interpretations', surely that's not a point one who has been taught better would argue, is it? But it sure would make the strait and narrow way a little easier to navigate, wouldn't it? I mean, adultery sounds harsh, Jesus must have mean something else, and else, and else.......yeah, there are a lot of possible interpretations and everybody and his wife are standing in pulpits spoon feeding the flock with compromised, watered down, cotton candy doctrines.

Joyce, Marilyn, Paula, Sharon, Patricia, Gloria....nope, not sent forth by God...not because they can't encourage people or quote the Word, but because The Word shows that it's not God who has sent them forth. But there is such a lack of men standing up and being men(of God) and teaching the body of Christ what the Word says, people don't know that women aren't suppose to be in these roles.

Ladies, or anyone care to prove differently?


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: Apostles [message #5934 is a reply to message #5763 ] Sun, 05 July 2009 22:58 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
watchman  is currently offline watchman
Messages: 15
Registered: April 2008
Location: North Carolina
Junior Member

You do know that there were women prophetesses in the Bible, James, Right?

Just checking.


David


Watchman
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