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Re: Apostles [message #3030 is a reply to message #3026 ] Wed, 27 August 2008 08:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
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There's a saying that goes like this; 'He who hesitates is lost".
I read AJ's post this morning and decided to wait until after I had my morning walk to reply. I too, have suffered through divorce and wanted to explain to him that there's not a set answer as to why people get divorced. But Hombre, you answered him with pretty much what I wanted to share with him. And yeah, like you stated, AJ, YOU DO NOT WANT TO KNOW WHAT DIVORCE IS LIKE !

Also,I was chewing on the second post as well...PLEASE, Lakeland I and Lakeland II ?; percent of chosen winners ?;
I had to resist the fleshly impulse to make a bunch funny comments from this, but it's too serious for joking about to me. This man is PROUD of the way the 'apostolic leadership team' dealt with this situation. He praises the guy now in charge,for his skillful demonstration of the gifts, HUH? This guy, Peter is a leader in that 'movement' and there's zilch glory given to God.

Heaven help the 'charismatic church'.

Excuse me while I go vomit.

[Updated on: Wed, 27 August 2008 08:55]


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: Apostles [message #3031 is a reply to message #3026 ] Wed, 27 August 2008 10:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
NBF56  is currently offline NBF56
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Hombre wrote on Wed, 27 August 2008 09:23

jisamazed wrote on Wed, 27 August 2008 06:55

..... My question is why was divorce so rampant among former "faith camp" people, but not in some "denominational" churches? We have to connect the dots. The poor fruit in the lives of many FA people should cause us to question how good the teaching really was. If a Baptist Church with 2nd-class Christians has almost no divorces, but 1st-class FA has many divorces, both before and after its collapse, maybe FA was not so superior. Certainly not its teaching on the family.


First of all, Jae, I'd like to see where you are getting your statistics from.

My guess is that you're guessing.

I personally DON'T believe that the divorce rate was/is any higher at FA/associated outreaches than anywhere else, INCLUDING the heavenly messengers of the Gospel, THE Baptist Church.

In fact, I would be willing to place my own guess-timate out there in saying that those who chose to walk in the Lords footsteps will ALWAYS face greater adversity and testing than those who take their religion lightly and walk with lukewarmness....meaning that those who embrace an unwavering word are marked for extermination by the enemy, and if it were not for the Lords' grace, we all would fall in one way or another, permanently.

I have been told this as well by non-FA people, who insist that 'Christians' in general, may have a higher divorce rate than the world, due to the pressures put on them that most don't ever have to deal with.

Walk into a 'Christian' bookstore and note the number of books dealing with the subject...and those are there for the minority who will actually seek help...those who don't or find it impossible to reconcile are the mass of the iceberg.

Jae, in addition to slopping out stats that you can't back up, you really can't speak with any authority whatsoever on the topic, because you apparently have no understanding on the topic.

Have YOU been through a divorce?

Do YOU know what can be involved?

Do YOU know firsthand the pain and suffering it brings?

...or do you think that you have the answers because you may have read a book or two?

I have been through it.

I have suffered....so have others.

Don't presume to know ANYTHING AT ALL about this topic until you have been through it...and it IS best NOT to know.

There are as many reasons for divorce as there are people, and the fact that Mr/Mrs FA are divorced has NO bearing whatsoever on the teaching of marriage and divorce that was presented by HEF/FA.




Been there, done that, got the T-shirt, and burned it.

I waited for 14 years before getting married again, because I realized that I had some work to do on me, and the Lord had to work some things IN me, before I would have been a fit husband for any woman. I divorced my first wife for adultery (hers), and I know I was on scriptural grounds. But it still hurt like hell, and it was the most harrowing, gut-wrenching, hurtful experience I have ever endured. The way the laws are set up in this country, I basically flushed life as I knew it down the toilet, and started over with nothing, at age 39. I learned a lot about trusting God for His provision (when 60% of your paycheck is confiscated for child support, you have no choice but learn how to appropriate God's provision), and about forgiving myself for having to take that step (divorce), and to quit second-guessing it.

Looking back, I can see how God brought me through it, and it has worked a lot of godly qualities in me, although I still struggle with some things. I did remarry, and I have a very happy fulfilling marriage now, which I consider a blessing from God.

But, I must echo Hombre, you do NOT want to go through this. EVER! I will NEVER go through it again, God willing.
Re: Apostles [message #3032 is a reply to message #3026 ] Wed, 27 August 2008 12:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jisamazed  is currently offline jisamazed
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Hombre wrote on Wed, 27 August 2008 08:23

jisamazed wrote on Wed, 27 August 2008 06:55

..... My question is why was divorce so rampant among former "faith camp" people, but not in some "denominational" churches? We have to connect the dots. The poor fruit in the lives of many FA people should cause us to question how good the teaching really was. If a Baptist Church with 2nd-class Christians has almost no divorces, but 1st-class FA has many divorces, both before and after its collapse, maybe FA was not so superior. Certainly not its teaching on the family.


First of all, Jae, I'd like to see where you are getting your statistics from.

My guess is that you're guessing.

I personally DON'T believe that the divorce rate was/is any higher at FA/associated outreaches than anywhere else, INCLUDING the heavenly messengers of the Gospel, THE Baptist Church.

In fact, I would be willing to place my own guess-timate out there in saying that those who chose to walk in the Lords footsteps will ALWAYS face greater adversity and testing than those who take their religion lightly and walk with lukewarmness....meaning that those who embrace an unwavering word are marked for extermination by the enemy, and if it were not for the Lords' grace, we all would fall in one way or another, permanently.

I have been told this as well by non-FA people, who insist that 'Christians' in general, may have a higher divorce rate than the world, due to the pressures put on them that most don't ever have to deal with.

Walk into a 'Christian' bookstore and note the number of books dealing with the subject...and those are there for the minority who will actually seek help...those who don't or find it impossible to reconcile are the mass of the iceberg.

Jae, in addition to slopping out stats that you can't back up, you really can't speak with any authority whatsoever on the topic, because you apparently have no understanding on the topic.

Have YOU been through a divorce?

Do YOU know what can be involved?

Do YOU know firsthand the pain and suffering it brings?

...or do you think that you have the answers because you may have read a book or two?

I have been through it.

I have suffered....so have others.

Don't presume to know ANYTHING AT ALL about this topic until you have been through it...and it IS best NOT to know.

There are as many reasons for divorce as there are people, and the fact that Mr/Mrs FA are divorced has NO bearing whatsoever on the teaching of marriage and divorce that was presented by HEF/FA.



I can see that I struck a nerve here. It's a sensitive topic, and understandably so.

Hombre, I did not give any statistics, except that half the former FA-ers at a party were divorced. I was there, I could count them. And there have definitely been a lot of divorces among people who used to be tied to FA or an associated group. I don't know what the percentage is, and I never claimed to give statistics on it, and I don't really care to know. I only know that there were far too many, especially for a group that claimed to be the end-time army or manchild or whatever. The point was not that divorcees are bad, or that no one had scriptural grounds for it. Some times divorce is necessary, and Jesus gave an exception for grounds for divorce and remarriage, as we know. In some cases involving abuse, abandonment or chronic adultery I might even advise someone to separate from the spouse as necessary, at least for a while.

I know that divorce is heart-wrenching and traumatic, especially for the innocent party. It is devastating for the spouses and children, if there are any involved. I counsel people going through divorce from time to time, and believe me, I don't condemn them at all. I fight for those whose marriage is on the rocks, and I will do whatever I can to help them, which sometime is nothing apart from prayer. But prayer in faith is a powerful weapon. This is one of the things I am passionate about. Fighting to save marriages. But I certainly don't have all the answers, and never claimed to.

Guys, that is my whole point. For those of you who divorced and remarried and had children through your second marriage, how would you react if someone told you to divorce your current spouse and "believe" for your first one? That is exactly what happened for a time in some FA-related churches, and I perceive that the practice happened at FA itself at one point in time. I think the word ministry put the kabosh on it after a while.

Some individual churches are very strong in the marriage and family area, and they have few divorces. There are others that are safe places for divorcees to go without feeling condemned. But a church that is so pure in the word as FA claimed to be will not be characterized by much divorce. In the church of Christ it should be a rare exception, not prevalent occurance.

My wife and I realize that it is by grace that we stand, and we are thankful frequently to the Lord for it. We are also thankful for good, balanced teaching on marriage, which has been very helpful for us.

If you have experienced the pain of a broken marriage, it can give you the compassion to pray for Todd Bentley's wife and anyone else you know of who is suffering in that way.


Amazed smitten astonished stunned floored blown away astounded shocked flabbergasted surprised wonderfully devastated awed shattered overwhelmed incredulous speechless sense of wonder at the love of God.
Re: Apostles [message #3033 is a reply to message #3032 ] Wed, 27 August 2008 13:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
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AmazedJames,
I'm not sure exactly what your point is, yes, believing for our original spouse was taught and encouraged at one time. I personally prayed for the restoration of my marriage and stood in faith for it for several years. And yes I was made to feel like a second class citizen in the body which I attended. But at some point I started thinking, is this what I want or is it God's will for my life? My wife was married to another and had two children; was God telling me it was best for her to divorce him and remarry me? What about the children, the more I thought about it the more clear it became as to my decision. I asked The Lord to bless her and her family and save her and keep her, but I removed my prayer of faith request from Him as to reconcilation; those children didn't need to be torn from their dad.

So, 30 years later, here I am. I have no knowledge of adultery on her part, she divorced me just because she wanted another man.( great for the ego, part of dying to self )Since I don't have spiritual grounds for divorce, I remain single.

Another reason for saying, Come quickly Lord Jesus.

But like I said, I don't understand your point Jae, do you want me to say FA/FEF was to blame for me being single or divorced? Well, to that extent, you could be right; if I hadn't been taught the Word and given understanding concerning marriage and remarriage in relationship to the scriptures, and what the grounds for divorce and remarriage were, then I probably would be married now and living in adultery. So again I guess we can blame it on Hobart Freeman...Not really, it's my decision.

Are you trying to convince us to join a demoninational church and say Hobart Freeman was a bad man and embrace whatever it is that's the latest 'move'of God? Not gonna happen here bro.

btw: If I offended you by coming on stronger that you were used to, in addressing Todd Bentley/Lakeland, I'm sorry. I don't know everything and don't think that I do, but that was serious, and God by His grace allowed me to see throught it, and I sometimes became quite exasperated when you seemed so undiscerning of what was so clear to others here.

God bless you

james

'And Jesus' Blood is still all we'll ever need'


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: Apostles [message #3034 is a reply to message #3022 ] Wed, 27 August 2008 15:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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jisamazed wrote on Tue, 26 August 2008 12:35

...but does anyone have an idea why there has been so much divorce among former "faith camp" people?


Do you think it might have anything to do with them being "former faith camp people"?

I'm no expert in this area (although I've posted on the topic here) but I cannot imagine a situation where you have two (it takes two to tango!) faith-filled believers (you referred to them as being "a group that claimed to be the end-time army or manchild or whatever...", which, to my mind doesn't mean they are exactly "former faith camp people"...) that would divorce each other.

Do you know of any, or are you mixing up a few details to make some other point?

You might have two "former faith camp people" that find themselves in this position... or you might have one "former faith camp person" and an "overcomer" (or whatever) that find themselves in this position, but I've never seen or heard of two, in-the-faith, deeperlife-believing, overcomers (or whatever), that admit divorce is an option... unless at least one of them has become, shall we say, not an "overcomer" (or whatever).


William

[Updated on: Wed, 27 August 2008 15:08]


I want to believe!
Re: Apostles [message #3036 is a reply to message #3033 ] Wed, 27 August 2008 18:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jisamazed  is currently offline jisamazed
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james wrote on Wed, 27 August 2008 13:16

AmazedJames,
I'm not sure exactly what your point is, yes, believing for our original spouse was taught and encouraged at one time. I personally prayed for the restoration of my marriage and stood in faith for it for several years. And yes I was made to feel like a second class citizen in the body which I attended. But at some point I started thinking, is this what I want or is it God's will for my life? My wife was married to another and had two children; was God telling me it was best for her to divorce him and remarry me? What about the children, the more I thought about it the more clear it became as to my decision. I asked The Lord to bless her and her family and save her and keep her, but I removed my prayer of faith request from Him as to reconcilation; those children didn't need to be torn from their dad.

So, 30 years later, here I am. I have no knowledge of adultery on her part, she divorced me just because she wanted another man.( great for the ego, part of dying to self )Since I don't have spiritual grounds for divorce, I remain single.

Another reason for saying, Come quickly Lord Jesus.

But like I said, I don't understand your point Jae, do you want me to say FA/FEF was to blame for me being single or divorced? Well, to that extent, you could be right; if I hadn't been taught the Word and given understanding concerning marriage and remarriage in relationship to the scriptures, and what the grounds for divorce and remarriage were, then I probably would be married now and living in adultery. So again I guess we can blame it on Hobart Freeman...Not really, it's my decision.

Are you trying to convince us to join a demoninational church and say Hobart Freeman was a bad man and embrace whatever it is that's the latest 'move'of God? Not gonna happen here bro.

btw: If I offended you by coming on stronger that you were used to, in addressing Todd Bentley/Lakeland, I'm sorry. I don't know everything and don't think that I do, but that was serious, and God by His grace allowed me to see throught it, and I sometimes became quite exasperated when you seemed so undiscerning of what was so clear to others here.

God bless you

james

'And Jesus' Blood is still all we'll ever need'


James, I highly respect your decision to stay single, and I believe that Paul in I Corinthians 7 stated that your decision is the best one. I can tell based on your post that it was difficult, but that the Lord has blessed you for it. Your situation, however, is different than what I observed with some other people. THEY LEFT THEIR CURRENT SPOUSE in order to "believe" for their first spouse, some of whom were already remarried with children. The children of the spouses who left were confused and saddened. Their spouses oftentimes did not agree with the separation. Why would a Christian leave their spouse and children to try to be restored to their first spouse? It had to be because of the teaching on it. They would not have done so unless they heard it taught that way. That was, in fact, exactly what happened in the Lansing group. My wife was a child of such a situation. If HEF had not taught it, it would not have happened. New, impressionable Christians had a high esteem for him, and when they heard him or other teachers from FA teach them to leave their spouse they did it, thinking they were obeying the Lord.

As I have stated before, HEF and the other teachers were not responsible for the bad decisions that people made. However, they were responsible for the bad teaching they gave that influenced people to make those decisions. That is why James 3 says that teachers shall receive the greater judgment.

No offense taken on the Todd Bentley thing. I should not have said that I would try to issue a document on it, then not deliver the goods. It would have been better if I had just kept silent and waited until such a document was ready. Time-wise I have bitten off more than I can chew, and I am behind on some other projects right now. To be fair, I did make a statement early on about some of my concerns about Todd, but it was not nearly the exhaustive research that I had wanted to do. I never endorsed Todd, but I was not ready to denounce him completely until I had done more homework.


Amazed smitten astonished stunned floored blown away astounded shocked flabbergasted surprised wonderfully devastated awed shattered overwhelmed incredulous speechless sense of wonder at the love of God.
Re: Apostles [message #3037 is a reply to message #3034 ] Wed, 27 August 2008 18:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jisamazed  is currently offline jisamazed
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moulder wrote on Wed, 27 August 2008 15:05

jisamazed wrote on Tue, 26 August 2008 12:35

...but does anyone have an idea why there has been so much divorce among former "faith camp" people?


Do you think it might have anything to do with them being "former faith camp people"?

I'm no expert in this area (although I've posted on the topic here) but I cannot imagine a situation where you have two (it takes two to tango!) faith-filled believers (you referred to them as being "a group that claimed to be the end-time army or manchild or whatever...", which, to my mind doesn't mean they are exactly "former faith camp people"...) that would divorce each other.

Do you know of any, or are you mixing up a few details to make some other point?

You might have two "former faith camp people" that find themselves in this position... or you might have one "former faith camp person" and an "overcomer" (or whatever) that find themselves in this position, but I've never seen or heard of two, in-the-faith, deeperlife-believing, overcomers (or whatever), that admit divorce is an option... unless at least one of them has become, shall we say, not an "overcomer" (or whatever).

William



Very true, Moulder. If a husband and wife are both continually filled with the Holy Spirit, it is impossible for them to get divorced. No disagreement here. If one stops walking with the Lord and breaks the covenant, whether by adultery or abuse or divorce without grounds, it does not mean the other is backslidden. As we can see from some of these testimonies, the innocent party can only do so much, and then might have to let the wandering spouse leave, as I Corinthians 7 says.

It is also true that I have observed many FORMER faith camp people who were divorced. Many of them backslid, or their spouses backslid and broke the marriage covenant. Maybe the bigger question should be, "Why did so many people who were a part of the group backslide?" Backsliding happens in any Christian group, but it seems that the frequency and severity of it was worse among FA people. No, I don't have any statistics, but I have not seen it as bad in most other Christian circles as I have in the former FA people. The exception might be some shepherdship groups I know of. A lot of backsliders there.

I view divorce as any other work of Satan. Those who are redeemed by Jesus' blood have authority over it. We can stand against that spirit of divorce and overcome it, not only in our own marriages, but on behalf of others. When one or both of the spouses relinquishes that authority, a door is open to the devil to gain a foothold. When a word minister is divorced and remarried, it diminishes his authority to address that problem from the pulpit. When the church, meaning all of God's true people in this case, has the same divorce rate as the world, it makes it harder to preach the truth and stand against that spirit as a whole. We can't just tell people that divorce is wrong. We have to demonstrate how to keep marriages healthy. This area presents a golden opportunity for the church in America to shine as an example, but so far we have blown it.

It is not just divorce that is the problem. The underlying issues that cause divorce are the problem: lust, domestic abuse, hard-heartedness, burnout, religiosity, hypocrisy, poor conflict resolution, uncontrolled anger, etc... Any church that wants to decrease divorce has to address these issues. I think that HEF and the FA teachers genuinely tried to do so, but their approach to pastoring was too heavy on the teaching and not enough on forming relationships and counseling, and it is hard to mend relationships on just teaching alone.


Amazed smitten astonished stunned floored blown away astounded shocked flabbergasted surprised wonderfully devastated awed shattered overwhelmed incredulous speechless sense of wonder at the love of God.
Re: Apostles [message #3040 is a reply to message #3027 ] Wed, 27 August 2008 20:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JWBTI  is currently offline JWBTI
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Ref Lakeland....

Dutch Sheets- A Statement and Appeal Regarding Lakeland

Posted on August 23, 2008 by realmsofglory

A Statement and Appeal Regarding Lakeland
August 21, 2008

It has now been a couple of weeks since I heard about Todd Bentley’s plans for separation and divorce. Like everyone, I have had a variety of emotions including anger, sadness, and grief. Every time I see this scenario repeated, I grieve: for the husband and wife involved; for the family that will be scarred in so many ways; because of the incredible reproach it brings to Christ; and the distortion it gives concerning God’s heart and ways. I am praying for Todd and his family.
I was asked numerous times to write my position on Lakeland while it was happening, but always felt checked by the Lord—the waters were too muddy and emotions too high. I now feel strongly that the Lord wants me to do so. It will be arguably one of the greatest risks of my ministry to date, but one I feel must be taken. Fathers, when given the voice to do so, bear the responsibility of giving correction and wisdom. I hope mine qualifies for the latter. I assure you I have spent many hours praying and thinking through the situation.
The risks are broad: with some of my dearest friends and co-laborers, I risk harming those relationships; with many in the charismatic body of Christ, I risk appearing to be an arrogant, “self-appointed” spokesperson for them; to the “I told you so” crowd, I risk the accusation of “spinning” the situation. (As far as the heresy hunters and revival police—not those who raised legitimate questions about Lakeland, but the attack dogs who make their living and build their ministries criticizing everyone else—I lost respect for them long ago and couldn’t care less what they think.) My purpose and sincere prayer in writing this statement, however, is three-fold: to see healing begin for the body of Christ; to initiate a process that can remove the reproach brought to Christ and the Church; and to do these things while preserving and honoring my current relationships. I pray that these desires, along with my heart, come through loudly. And I hope I’m writing this with true humility—who among us clearly sees all hidden in our own hearts?
Let me also preface this statement by saying that what needs to be said cannot be done quickly or carelessly. I do not want my heart to be missed and am not willing to run that risk for the sake of brevity, so please bear with the length. (Incidentally, I think it will be obvious no one involved in the Lakeland situation has asked me to write this; and for the sake of integrity on my part, none have been consulted concerning what I’m stating.)
Mistakes at Lakeland
Did leaders handling the Lakeland situation make mistakes? Yes—huge mistakes. Beyond the obvious fruit of salvations and healings, can good come from Lakeland, as some have suggested, even with the recent revelations concerning Todd Bentley? Yes, but only if there is complete honesty and transparency, the removal of all attempts at self-preservation, and absolutehumility from all sides.
Did I endorse the Lakeland meetings? No, I did not, nor did I condemn them. I acknowledged that healings were occurring and some were being saved, which I still believe and rejoice over. I realized and stated that the thousands of people attending were hungry and sincere, as were those involved in leading the meetings. The worship was regularly good. But looking past some of the immediate and positive results, I, like many, also looked ahead to the possible fruit from questionable doctrine and experiences, exaggeration and hype, youthful pride, character issues and the frightening potential of a 32 year “young” man leading a movement that could shape the future of the Church. These things were frightening, very frightening, to others and me.
When something has the potential of setting precedent, birthing a movement and being reproduced as a prototype, we are no longer simply endorsing good brothers, good intentions and miracles. Doctrine and foundations will be built on these events. Teachings and paradigms for future ministries will be formed—in short, the next generation of the church and the move of God in the earth could be greatly impacted. This is why I stopped short of endorsing everything at Lakeland. Just as importantly, I could not ignore the “check”, the uneasiness, the sickening feeling deep in my spirit telling me something else was wrong—terribly wrong—in this situation. Like other leaders I tried to push past my uneasiness with the showmanship, the “bams,” the head butts and kneeing, along with certain experiences and doctrines, all in order to embrace the good. Like many of my friends I tried to be—and believe I was gracious, accepting, ready to think “out of the box”, etc. But try as I may, the uneasiness in my spirit just wouldn’t leave.
Did I voice my concerns to the appropriate people? Yes, including stating my concerns for Todd’s marriage to the Lakeland Outpouring Apostolic Team. Did they listen? Some did, some didn’t. But I want to state emphatically, this is not an “I told you so” statement. In fact, much of what I want to address goes back several years into our charismatic Christian history. And I assure you that concerning our present weaknesses in the charismatic church, there is plenty of blame to go around. Personally, I’ve been right at times with my discernment and decisions, wrong at others. It would be worse than hypocritical for me to point the finger of accusation—I have no stones of judgment to throw. Nonetheless, mistakes were made and must be acknowledged and learned from in order for us to heal, grow and move forward.
Some of my closest friends endorsed and participated in the Lakeland meetings. For them I have both criticism—all of us lose credibility at this point if we’re not completely honest—and affirmation. Should they have been more discerning and have listened to the warnings they received? Obviously. Should those who “aligned” Todd with spiritual fathers (which was a good thing and positioned him to receive help if he chooses to accept it) have realized to do so publicly was a mistake and could be interpreted by those watching in no other way than as a complete endorsement? Yes, they should have, especially when the event became a commissioning ceremony, complete with decrees and prophecies of going to higher levels, predictions of Todd’s increasing world-wide influence and leading a world-wide revival, emphatic and prolific endorsements of his character, etc.
How could those watching believe the evening was anything but an aligning, endorsing and commissioning ceremony? It was. It really doesn’t matter who laid their hands on Todd—all share responsibility. This was unwise at best, na´ve at least and at its worst, foolish. And should the leaders involved have realized that those of us connected to them relationally, ministerially, and as movements—some even in alignment with them apostolically and as sons and daughters—would feel minimalized, if not betrayed, by the fact that they were in essence taking us onto the stage with them? Yes. These feelings were inevitable, especially when we had such uneasiness and asked them not to. Should there be an acknowledgment of these mistakes to the body of Christ for the sake of accountability and in order to rebuild trust? I believe so, and remain hopeful this will happen.
With such strong statements of disagreement, what is the affirmation toward my friends who led, participated in or endorsed this ceremony (and the meetings in general)? Simply stated, I know their hearts. It is not a contradiction of my criticisms toward some of their actions to, at the same time, defend and endorse their hearts and character. It is completely appropriate—when true—to defend a person’s heart and integrity while disagreeing with their actions. I think the blunder of that night was huge and very damaging to the body of Christ, but I also realize that in their hearts, those involved honestly felt they were doing the right things.
Again, while not defending the action taken, I would defend the character and integrity of Peter and Doris Wagner as vigorously as anyone I know, and do so with absolute confidence. There are no two people, and I mean that literally, who embody the qualities of humility, integrity, holiness (no compromise!), sacrifice, unselfish kingdom-thinking, the tireless giving of themselves to Christ’s cause and the body of Christ—and do I need to add risk-taking?—as much as Peter and Doris Wagner. It remains my great honor to be associated with them and call them a spiritual father and mother. And again, while not minimizing or “sweeping under the rug” any wrong decisions, I remain steadfast in my belief that similar affirmations could be made of others involved—either directly or indirectly—in the ceremony. And some of them still see their endorsing of Lakeland as an endorsement of revival generally, not of Todd personally.
The Bigger Picture
It may come as a surprise, however, that my real purpose in writing this is not to only state the above, as important as I believe saying it is. My primary purpose, and I believe my assignment from the Lord, is to identificationally repent on behalf of the leadership of the charismatic body of Christ (see Nehemiah 1:4- 7; Daniel 9:1-19). In doing so, I do not have a pompous, “no one else will, so I’ll do it” attitude, nor am I arrogant enough to think I have become the spokesperson for the charismatic church. But in the same way that I can identify with the racism of white predecessors and repent to blacks, Native Americans and other races, I can represent the leadership of the charismatic body of Christ and identificationally repent for our sins and weaknesses. I encourage leaders who find my statements true and appropriate to join me. Beyond the simple fact of it being appropriate, I firmly believe it is the only way to begin the process of rebuilding trust with those asked to follow us and to remove the cynicism of the world we ask to listen to us. As you know, regaining, credibility is much more difficult than attaining credibility.
Concerning what I’m about to say, I don’t believe I have a critical spirit, nor do I want to diminish the sacrifices, faithfulness, and hard work done by so many in ministry. The fact remains, however, that we have failed the Lord and His people in many ways—not just with Lakeland but in countless other situations— and must repent if we are to be trusted in the future. And as you also know, no repentance is effective if watered down and couched in excuses, therefore, I intend to be brutally honest:
1) We, the leaders of the charismatic community, have operated in an extremely low level of discernment. Frankly, we often don’t even try to discern. We assume a person’s credibility based on gifts, charisma, the size of their ministry or church, whether they can prophesy or work a miracle, etc. (Miracles and signs are intended to validate God and His message, not the messenger; sometimes they validate the assignment of an individual, but never the person’s character, lifestyle or spiritual maturity.) We leaders in the Church have become no different than the world around us in our standards for measuring success and greatness. This has contributed to the body of Christ giving millions of dollars to undeserving individuals; it has allowed people living in sin to become influential leaders—even to lead movement, allowing them influence all the way to the White House. Through our lack of discernment we built their stages and gave them their platforms. We have been gullible beyond words—gullible leaders producing gullible sheep.
When a spiritual leader we’re connected with violates trust, is exposed for immorality or falls below other accepted standards of behavior, it does not exonerate us simply to say we don’t condone such behavior. Those we lead trust us to let them know whom totrust. We have failed them miserably in this regard.
For this lack of discernment, and for employing and passing on inappropriate standards of judgment, I repent to the Lord and ask forgiveness of the body of Christ.
2) We, the leaders of the charismatic church, spin our involvement and fail to acknowledge our responsibility when other leaders fall—all of which stems from our self-preservation and pride. Enough of the spin—we’re no different than Washington, DC. Every time another embarrassing and disgraceful situation is exposed, the dancing begins. It seems that no one bears any real responsibility except the man or woman who actually commits sin. Incredibly, we even blame “revival” itself—the pressures, attacks, weariness, the “revival is messy” argument, etc., saying it is responsible for the failures. This is disgusting. Those of us on boards of fallen leaders, those who helped give them a voice, put them on TV, published and endorsed their books (yes, I have), etc., are not exonerated simply by saying we don’t condone the wrong behavior or that we didn’t know. We’re supposed to know.
I don’t believe anyone is expecting perfection from us—I know I’m not. We’re far too human for that. But we are expected to have enough humility to look the world and those who follow us in the eye when we miss it and say, “we were wrong and we are sorry.”
Our careless accountability has caused the body of Christ to be spiritually raped and abused. It has produced disillusionment and brought immeasurable reproach to our God and cynicism to His message. Concerning Lakeland, what was called the “greatest revival since Azusa Street” has become possibly one of the greatest reproaches. We, the leaders of the charismatic church, are responsible.
For not accepting and acknowledging our responsibility, for caring more about our own reputation than Christ’s, I repent to God and ask forgiveness of the body of Christ.
3) Our procedures and standards of accountability are incredibly inadequate. We have provided camaraderie, not biblical accountability. For those on Todd Bentley’s board who had previous knowledge of his marriage problems and said nothing, it was more than a mistake—it was reckless, foolish, and irresponsible. For those on the stage the night of his aligning and commissioning who knew and said nothing—ditto. For those there who didn’t know, my question is, “why didn’t you?” You were trusted to know. That is one of the purposes of public commissioning and the purpose behind the concept of endorsement. I’m not trying to point the finger; I’m endeavoring to get us to be honest about our failures—we have serious credibility issues. Have I ever laid hands on, commissioned or endorsed anyone without adequately checking them out? Yes, but you better believe I’ll be more careful next time! And we must not single out Lakeland. We’re all guilty.
What about the leader in my city who ran with some of the leading spiritual fathers in our nation—sincere and good men, I might add, and not all “charismatic” leaders—who sang his praises and helped build his stage—all while he was doing drugs and having sex with other men? But we shouldn’t blame only the high profile cases—what about those of us who unknowingly have had adulterers on our staffs or appointed elders that turned out to have compromise in their life?Sounding familiar yet?
This is so epidemic that every member of the body of Christ stands guilty—what pastor or leader did you follow that turned out to have sin issues? What ministry did you support that was unworthy? There is plenty of blame to go around. The big question becomes not “who do we blame” but “how do we fix this mess?”
Leaders can live in sin—adultery, homosexuality, financial wrongdoing, drugs, etc.—for years without it being realized. They can offer completely unacceptable lifestyles for the body of Christ to follow and still keep their TV programs and lavish lifestyles. In the name of grace, compassion and forgiveness we have lowered the standard so much that often there isn’t one. We have bought into the lie that true discipline is “shooting our wounded.” We have made a mockery of biblical restoration, making “ministry”—not healthy individuals, marriages and families—its ultimate goal. The fact is, integrity matters. No, we don’t need legalistic, pharisaical standards,but we must have standards.
For this lack of biblical accountability, I repent to God and I askforgiveness of the body of Christ.
4) We, the leaders of the charismatic church, have built on hype, sensation, innovation, programs, personality and charisma. This has produced: shallowness; false movements; novice leaders—gifted but immature and untested; a deficient understanding of God’s word; the building of man-centered rather than kingdom-centered churches and ministries; competition rather than cooperation; humanistic, selfcentered Christians who don’t understand sacrifice and commitment; Christians without discernment; superstar leaders; a perverted and powerless gospel; prayerless and anemic Christians; a replacement of the fear of the Lord with the fear of man; and a young generation that is cynical of it all. We are responsible, not the devil; he takes what we give him.
For this compromise in the way we build, for giving the Church watered down wine, commercial Christianity, a flashy but weak Church and hype disguised as anointing, I repent to God and ask forgiveness of the body of Christ.
Galatians 6:1-5 is an appropriate reference with which to end this statement:
“Brethren, even if a man caught in any trespass, you who are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness; each one looking to yourself, lest you too be tempted. Bear one another’s burdens, and thus fulfill the law of Christ. For if anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself. But let each one examine his own work, and then he will have reason for boasting in regard to himself alone, and not in regard to another. For each oneshall bear his own load.” NAS
My passionate prayer is that God honors this repentance—I believe He led me to do it and therefore, will—and uses it to begin a process of cleansing and healing for all of us. In order for the coming great awakening to bear maximum fruit we must have both, as well as a course correction that sets us on a path of wisdom leading to life. There is no doubt that past moves of God have been aborted, ended prematurely and contained error or heresy that have wounded, if not destroyed, many. The healing revival of the 40’s and 50’s, the charismatic movement, discipleship movement and Jesus movement are all examples. My heart is to help shape a movement, the fruit of which will last for decades—better yet, forever. And I have great expectations for us—I am not a cynic.
My passionate prayer is also that Todd Bentley’s marriage survives and thrives…that he turns his heart fully toward Christ and toward those with whom he is aligned, and allows them, as God leads, to put him on a path of complete restoration. I thank God for those who were touched by the Holy Spirit at Lakeland and while watching it on God TV and the web. May we all move forward into all God has planned for us in this awesome season of endless possibility.
With great hope—
Dutch Sheets


Ron
Re: Apostles [message #3045 is a reply to message #3040 ] Thu, 28 August 2008 11:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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Now that is funny!!!!!!!

Our charismatic keystone cops-- on the job!


I want to believe!
Re: Apostles [message #3046 is a reply to message #3037 ] Thu, 28 August 2008 13:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sparkles  is currently offline sparkles
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Jae said: "It is also true that I have observed many FORMER faith camp people who were divorced. Many of them backslid, or their spouses backslid and broke the marriage covenant. Maybe the bigger question should be, "Why did so many people who were a part of the group backslide?" Backsliding happens in any Christian group, but it seems that the frequency and severity of it was worse among FA people.

I am absolutely certain you do not have any idea how many people were/are blessed by the teaching of Hobart Freeman and Faith Assembly. They walk in faith, have Christ-centered marriages and have joy and victory in their lives. You see such a small number with problems and try to make it more than it is. Sometimes it seems like I am reading the liberal, left winged newspaper where facts are twisted to make something sound a certain way, so as to dis-credit someone or something. For example when you said half the people at the party were divorced, what you didn't say was that the number of people there was just a small number of all the ones that came to the Grand Rapids meeting. There were many couples that came to the meeting over the years that were not divorced, but you made it sound like half the church divorced, which is not true.
There is no doubt that some have backslidden, but isn't that something that happens? Isn't there the teaching of the sheep and goats, and wheat and tares? Do you really think every one is going to continue to walk with the Lord?
I also might add that the healings and answered prayers were also more frequent among Faith Assembly people. Every week people were glorifying God in healings and answers to prayer. I think you don't remember all that, but have selective remembering when it comes to Faith Assembly or the Grand Rapids group.


Jae says: "It is not just divorce that is the problem. The underlying issue " that cause divorce are the problem: lust, domestic abuse, hard-heartedness, burnout, religiosity, hypocrisy, poor conflict resolution, uncontrolled anger, etc... Any church that wants to decrease divorce has to address these issues. I think that HEF and the FA teachers genuinely tried to do so, but their approach to pastoring was too heavy on the teaching and not enough on forming relationships and counseling, and it is hard to mend relationships on just teaching alone."

I not only believe the ministers from Faith Assembly genuinely tried to address the issues, but if people had ears to hear, they would know they were addressed, regularly and biblically.
If I remember right the ministry is to give themselves to the word and prayer, so they can have the mind of Christ when they get up to teach the body of Christ. Jae, do you have any idea how much counselling Dr. Freeman did, or the other ministers? He would stay very late after the meetings to counsel people. Not to mention the letters he would get in the mail from all over the world that he would respond to. He was much more long suffering and kind then you will ever give him credit for. The church today wants to have ministers hold their hands and and coddle them, and give them a warm milk and toast message. At least then they won't be accountable to walk in a more consecrated, holy, narrow path, and while they are at it maybe the ministers can tickle their ears a little.


Jae said: "..... My question is why was divorce so rampant among former "faith camp" people, but not in some "denominational" churches? We have to connect the dots. The poor fruit in the lives of many FA people should cause us to question how good the teaching really was. If a Baptist Church with 2nd-class Christians has almost no divorces, but 1st-class FA has many divorces, both before and after its collapse, maybe FA was not so superior. Certainly not its teaching on the family."

It is certainly good to know that by results is how judge the word. I guess when Jesus told all His followers what it would cost them, most of them left. Must not have been very good teaching. And then look at Judas; only sat at the feet of Jesus and still denied him. Wonder what happened there.
I believe I heard taught over and over that it is level at the foot of the cross, so please Jae, stop calling Baptist 2nd class christians. Faith Assembly was not superior, but did have superior teaching, including it's teaching on the family. I have seen some excellent fruit come from Faith Assembly people, and poor fruit from the critics.


[Updated on: Thu, 04 September 2008 21:16]

Re: Apostles [message #3050 is a reply to message #3046 ] Thu, 28 August 2008 18:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
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Sue,

Your stedfastness in faith is wonderful to see, you don't let others talk you out of what God has planted within you. Hold fast, God is watching and is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him...

"For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but The Word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it." Heb.4:2


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: Apostles [message #3051 is a reply to message #3050 ] Thu, 28 August 2008 20:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JWBTI  is currently offline JWBTI
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Jisamazed:

Got a question for ya,

How many in your Church were sucked in by the Deception an Error at Lakeland because you refuse to take counsel from your

Brothers an Sister on this board ? They shared the Truth...you rejected it......to Believe a lie !..... Todd Bentley

You failed to warn those that you say you love..... Your church--Grand Rapids Mi.......

What's next ? Lots of counsiling for those that were deceived ? You could have cried Wolf ! But did you ?

Were your Leaders also taken in by this error an deception ?

What percentage of your church fell into error over Lakeland an the Todd Bentley show ?

Why did you not believe the Truth that was presented to you ?


If you were deceived about Todd Bentley.....maybe your discernment about Hobart Freeman is wrong also.

Ya might want to think about that Brother.


Ron
Re: Apostles [message #3052 is a reply to message #3050 ] Thu, 28 August 2008 21:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sparkles  is currently offline sparkles
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Thank you James for your encouraging words and scripture! I know Brother Freeman and the other ministers taught us to be as the Bereans and search the scriptures for ourselves. Then to base what we believe in God's unchanging word, not Hobart Freeman, or any others. I can remember time after time after time Brother Freeman told us to quote the Word of God, not him. Base your faith on the Word!
It has truly been a blessing and privilidge to have had the opportunity to go to Faith Assembly and some of the outreach meetings. The fellowship with the saints at Faith Assembly and Grand Rapids was wonderful, and I must admit I miss those days. Sad
Many of the people on this site bring back those good memories, and I appreciate all you who so fervently defend the faith. I wouldn't even be surprised if some of you I haven't met at a seminar or Faith Assembly or Zion Lake.

I Thes. 5:23-24 "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it."

Re: Apostles [message #3054 is a reply to message #3051 ] Fri, 29 August 2008 11:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jisamazed  is currently offline jisamazed
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JWBTI wrote on Thu, 28 August 2008 20:17

Jisamazed:

Got a question for ya,

How many in your Church were sucked in by the Deception an Error at Lakeland because you refuse to take counsel from your

Brothers an Sister on this board ? They shared the Truth...you rejected it......to Believe a lie !..... Todd Bentley

You failed to warn those that you say you love..... Your church--Grand Rapids Mi.......

What's next ? Lots of counsiling for those that were deceived ? You could have cried Wolf ! But did you ?

Were your Leaders also taken in by this error an deception ?

What percentage of your church fell into error over Lakeland an the Todd Bentley show ?

Why did you not believe the Truth that was presented to you ?


If you were deceived about Todd Bentley.....maybe your discernment about Hobart Freeman is wrong also.

Ya might want to think about that Brother.




Ron, it is not a good idea to assume things. I did the same to you a few months ago and had to apologize.

My church is not into charismatic fads. It simply did not affect us that much. I had several conversations with the elders on the matter, and most of them expressed some suspicion of Todd. And, as a matter of fact, I did bring up some concerns based on some of the websites that Hombre and others forwarded to us. There are a few people at the church who are into that kind of thing, and if someone wants to go to Toronto or Lakeland we are not going to try to make their decisions for them. We are not control freaks. We are not going to try to keep them from going, although when I have the opportunity I warn people about the problems at those places. One guy in particular used to show DVD's from Toronto, but he no longer does that in our church. We encourage people to be faithful to the Lord in their everyday lives and to be continually filled with the Spirit through study of the word, prayer, worship and fellowship, not by attending revivals.

You need to give me a little bit more credit. Just because I didn't come out with condemning statements about Todd does not mean that I did not discern that there was a problem. Look at the history of this thread. My posts will speak for themselves.

I liked Dutch Sheets' article.


Amazed smitten astonished stunned floored blown away astounded shocked flabbergasted surprised wonderfully devastated awed shattered overwhelmed incredulous speechless sense of wonder at the love of God.
Re: Apostles [message #3055 is a reply to message #3046 ] Fri, 29 August 2008 12:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jisamazed  is currently offline jisamazed
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Sageshroomer wrote on Thu, 28 August 2008 13:08

Jae said: "It is also true that I have observed many FORMER faith camp people who were divorced. Many of them backslid, or their spouses backslid and broke the marriage covenant. Maybe the bigger question should be, "Why did so many people who were a part of the group backslide?" Backsliding happens in any Christian group, but it seems that the frequency and severity of it was worse among FA people.

I am absolutely certain you do not have any idea how many people were/are blessed by the teaching of Hobart Freeman and Faith Assembly. They walk in faith, have Christ-centered marriages and have joy and victory in their lives. You see such a small number with problems and try to make it more than it is. Sometimes it seems like I am reading the liberal, right winged newspaper where facts are twisted to make something sound a certain way, so as to dis-credit someone or something. For example when you said half the people at the party were divorced, what you didn't say was that the number of people there was just a small number of all the ones that came to the Grand Rapids meeting. There were many couples that came to the meeting over the years that were not divorced, but you made it sound like half the church divorced, which is not true.
There is no doubt that some have backslidden, but isn't that something that happens? Isn't there the teaching of the sheep and goats, and wheat and tares? Do you really think every one is going to continue to walk with the Lord?
I also might add that the healings and answered prayers were also more frequent among Faith Assembly people. Every week people were glorifying God in healings and answers to prayer. I think you don't remember all that, but have selective remembering when it comes to Faith Assembly or the Grand Rapids group.


Jae says: "It is not just divorce that is the problem. The underlying issue " that cause divorce are the problem: lust, domestic abuse, hard-heartedness, burnout, religiosity, hypocrisy, poor conflict resolution, uncontrolled anger, etc... Any church that wants to decrease divorce has to address these issues. I think that HEF and the FA teachers genuinely tried to do so, but their approach to pastoring was too heavy on the teaching and not enough on forming relationships and counseling, and it is hard to mend relationships on just teaching alone."

I not only believe the ministers from Faith Assembly genuinely tried to address the issues, but if people had ears to hear, they would know they were addressed, regularly and biblically.
If I remember right the ministry is to give themselves to the word and prayer, so they can have the mind of Christ when they get up to teach the body of Christ. Jae, do you have any idea how much counselling Dr. Freeman did, or the other ministers? He would stay very late after the meetings to counsel people. Not to mention the letters he would get in the mail from all over the world that he would respond to. He was much more long suffering and kind then you will ever give him credit for. The church today wants to have ministers hold their hands and and coddle them, and give them a warm milk and toast message. At least then they won't be accountable to walk in a more consecrated, holy, narrow path, and while they are at it maybe the ministers can tickle their ears a little.


Jae said: "..... My question is why was divorce so rampant among former "faith camp" people, but not in some "denominational" churches? We have to connect the dots. The poor fruit in the lives of many FA people should cause us to question how good the teaching really was. If a Baptist Church with 2nd-class Christians has almost no divorces, but 1st-class FA has many divorces, both before and after its collapse, maybe FA was not so superior. Certainly not its teaching on the family."

It is certainly good to know that by results is how judge the word. I guess when Jesus told all His followers what it would cost them, most of them left. Must not have been very good teaching. And then look at Judas; only sat at the feet of Jesus and still denied him. Wonder what happened there.
I believe I heard taught over and over that it is level at the foot of the cross, so please Jae, stop calling Baptist 2nd class christians. Faith Assembly was not superior, but did have superior teaching, including it's teaching on the family. I have seen some excellent fruit come from Faith Assembly people, and poor fruit from the critics.




People left Jesus because they did not like it that He was the center of His message. He claimed to be God. He claimed it so assertively that he demanded that people go to their death to follow Him. It had nothing to do with the bondage that HEF preached that he called the word. HEF preached his opinion and mixed it with the word and ruined a lot of people's faith in the process. It is impossible to really grow more like Jesus and believe everything HEF said at the same time.

If we are truly following Jesus to the death, we will reject HEF's bondage teaching and move on to more mature, healthy living. If you are stuck in HEF's teaching so much that you think that he was somehow superior, you are not really following Jesus, but HEF. And I never said Baptists were 2nd-class, I was hypothetically referring to the elitist teaching coming out of FA that put all "denominational" believers into a 2nd-class status.


Amazed smitten astonished stunned floored blown away astounded shocked flabbergasted surprised wonderfully devastated awed shattered overwhelmed incredulous speechless sense of wonder at the love of God.
Re: Apostles [message #3059 is a reply to message #3054 ] Fri, 29 August 2008 15:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
Messages: 1934
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Jisamazed wrote:

'I liked Dutch Sheets' article.'

Why did I think you would?

Jiz, I remember you said earlier that your sister had been embarrassed at her graduation party, or something similar, because of words used by 'faith camp' people, speaking in king James type language. And how you wanted to 'help us' learn to communicate with the rest of the world without seeming old fashioned and dorky.

Let me share this with you in love, you need to decide whether you want to please God or man. Decide if what is written in The Word of God is true or false, and if you believe it to be true, then embrace it and stop being embarrassed by how Jesus spoke and more importantly summit yourself unto it. btw: He is the one to blame, He told us to say to mountains,'Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea...' Man, FAITH is foolishness to this world; you can't possibly walk in faith when you're worring what you look like, sound like, act like, to the world. Have you not read THE BIBLE? Jesus said He came not to bring peace, but a sword, everyone will be against you if you chose to follow Him.

Now this is a thus sayeth The Lord; "Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith The Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will recieve you, And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith The Lord Almighty." II Corth.6:17-18
Don't try to explain it away, obey Him...( do a study on how many times God commands us to walk separately from the world)

Not a thus saith The Lord through me as a prophecy; but through His Word...You don't have to discern between what a man says verses what God says here...God said it !!!! Ask for a heart to recieve it.

Something else for you to consider, at the time I wrote this originally, I had not read Hombres' post (message 3057) even though I wrote this 1 1/2 hr. after he had written his message to Grandom concerning you. I hope you have the spiritual discernment to see that possibly The Holy Spirit just might be trying to tell you something. And believe God had put on both our hearts pretty much the same thing. Ask Him, it's His Word He's using us to declare unto you.

[Updated on: Fri, 29 August 2008 15:26]


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: Apostles [message #3060 is a reply to message #3055 ] Fri, 29 August 2008 16:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sparkles  is currently offline sparkles
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Jae wrongly wrote: HEF preached his opinion and mixed it with the word and ruined a lot of people's faith in the process.
While we're at it why not blame him for poverty, the national debt, the gas prices, the problems in Africa, the Holocaust, the war in Iraq and just about any other problem in the world. After all, we all know it is Hobart Freeman's fault that people left the faith and backslid, and that people have no responsibility for themselves. And speaking of that maybe we can blame Bill Clintons, Paul Cains, Bob Jones(not of the college) and Roberts Liardon's problems on Hobart Freeman.
Contrary to what you think or say, Dr. Freeman encouraged people in the faith, to believe God for themselves, unlike the preachers of today who want people to come to them for councilling(theophostic, inner healing) and therapy. "Come up front so we can have our prayer servants pray with you." They sure don't encourage people to go to God and believe for themselves, now do they? "Send us your prayer request with your tithes and offerings and God will do a miracle for you today!" Hobart Freeman encouraged people to trust God for themselves, and whether you like it or not he was correct. We never said perfect, just correct.


It is impossible to really grow more like Jesus and believe everything HEF said at the same time.
I must say you are proving that not listening to Dr. Freeman sure doesn't help in making some be more like Jesus.

If we are truly following Jesus to the death, we will reject HEF's bondage teaching and move on to more mature, healthy living. If you are stuck in HEF's teaching so much that you think that he was somehow superior, you are not really following Jesus, but HEF.
This is an absolutely ridiculous statement! Again you twist things so they say what you want them to. Because Dr. Freeman had superior teaching to many other ministers does not mean we are following him. Hobart Freeman pointed people to following Jesus Christ and trusting in Him alone, not the ministry. Or should I say if you listen to your minister at your church you are not following Jesus but your preacher. Just because Dr. Freeman taught things that you don't agree with does not mean he was wrong.

And I never said Baptists were 2nd-class, I was hypothetically referring to the elitist teaching coming out of FA that put all "denominational" believers into a 2nd-class status.

If you want to say we call people being trapped and robbed in the denomination system 2nd class citizens I couldn't care less. You can call them martians, or zombies or dogs or cats or rats, but it doesn't change the fact they are being deceived, robbed, lied to, taken advantage of, and given a soft message where they are not taught to discern things themselves, and therefore going off into all kinds of deceptions and errors.

I know you don't write to change my mind or Hombre's or James mind, but to the audience that reads this, so you can somehow let them all know what you think is correct. Everyone who reads this is responsible before God to walk in the light they have received, whether from Dr. Freeman or any preacher on the radio, or their neighbor or just by reading the Word of God. And if what Dr. Freeman preached was correct they/you/me will stand without excuse on the day of judgment for not walking in all the light we were given. Mark 11:24 is in the Word for all to see and believe, as is John 3:16 and a multitude of other verses on faith and trusting in a faithful savior.
Re: Apostles [message #3064 is a reply to message #3060 ] Fri, 29 August 2008 17:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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Hey Sage, YOU STOLE MY TRUCK!! <grin>


I want to believe!
Re: Apostles [message #3067 is a reply to message #3064 ] Fri, 29 August 2008 17:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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Hombre wrote on Fri, 29 August 2008 17:06

moulder wrote on Fri, 29 August 2008 17:03

Hey Sage, YOU STOLE MY TRUCK!! <grin>



...that may be a bit obscure for people who can't follow a 1-10 numbering system.....

Laughing

...not saying who that might be...just talking...that's all.....

Laughing



Yeah you're right. I should have taken note that this thing has jumped to another page...

I withdraw my comment!


I want to believe!
Re: Apostles [message #3072 is a reply to message #3064 ] Fri, 29 August 2008 17:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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Hombre wrote on Fri, 29 August 2008 17:20

james wrote on Fri, 29 August 2008 17:16

William

I think she's just borrowed it...Last I saw of it she was trying to get that grill cleaned off before returning it...
Smile


..say now, does anyone have a good recipe for roadkill?

..and is it best to fry it or bake it?



Well, about the only thing it is good for now is a tortilla wrap.

Sure hope she gets that grill cleaned off... the truck was borrowed... (from Hombre!)


I want to believe!
Re: Apostles [message #3074 is a reply to message #3064 ] Fri, 29 August 2008 18:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sparkles  is currently offline sparkles
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Thank you William for letting me use your truck! I have always wanted a truck, but for now just borrowing/stealing one will suffice. And I will return it as good as new, grill cleaned (I use to cook in a restaurant so I am good at cleaning grills) and truck washed. Thanks again and have a wonderful day!
Re: Apostles [message #3078 is a reply to message #3072 ] Sat, 30 August 2008 08:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JWBTI  is currently offline JWBTI
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Jismazed wrote:
Ron, it is not a good idea to assume things. I did the same to you a few months ago and had to apologize.

My church is not into charismatic fads. It simply did not affect us that much. I had several conversations with the elders on the matter, and most of them expressed some suspicion of Todd. And, as a matter of fact, I did bring up some concerns based on some of the websites that Hombre and others forwarded to us. There are a few people at the church who are into that kind of thing, and if someone wants to go to Toronto or Lakeland we are not going to try to make their decisions for them. We are not control freaks. We are not going to try to keep them from going, although when I have the opportunity I warn people about the problems at those places. One guy in particular used to show DVD's from Toronto, but he no longer does that in our church. We encourage people to be faithful to the Lord in their everyday lives and to be continually filled with the Spirit through study of the word, prayer, worship and fellowship, not by attending revivals.

You need to give me a little bit more credit. Just because I didn't come out with condemning statements about Todd does not mean that I did not discern that there was a problem. Look at the history of this thread. My posts will speak for themselves.

I liked Dutch Sheets' article.

------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------ ---------------------------------------------------

Jae, I may have assumed that from: The fact that you seemed to defend Todd Bentley an Lakeland by your silence,but you
were always ready to be vocal about your opposition to Fa an Hobart Freeman and his teachings...



Ref : Control freaks an Toronto.... Like I tell my children...If ya gonna put your hand in the Fire....you're gonna to get burnt !

I would question now.....Why.... would they allow the DVD in your church if they thought it was wrong ?


Jae wrote:
You need to give me a little bit more credit.

Rons reply:
I can't do that !.................... I've read your posts !



Ref: Dutch Sheets,
I'am glad he's repented now, but that is like calling in the Fire dept after the house is already burnt to the ground.
Opps........ should have called 911 a few months ago.....Sorry !

What about C. Peter Wagner ?

Revival: Lakeland II

Brought to us by the same Deceived people that started Lakeland I
Ps: Todd Bentley has left the building......Sorry !








Ron
Re: Apostles [message #3080 is a reply to message #3078 ] Sat, 30 August 2008 12:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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Hombre you hit the nail out of the park!

Quote:

Hombre wrote: We have a promise, brethren..and it isn't going to be found in a supernatural sideshow, which was really the entire problem. People looking at the supernatural instead of focusing on who God reveals Himself to be, according to the Word of God.


To continue the thought; have you noticed that these false shepherds have yet to give the Body of Christ any true discernment? If *one* person, (Bentley) hadn't rocked the apple cart, they would still be blindly following the supernatural show. In fact, they still are following the show by renaming it Lakeland II.

Forget Bentley, a mere pawn in the hands of Satan; it is the sideshow that is proving them to be *TOTALLY* without discernment.

It hasn't been too many years ago, that even a babe in Christ would have recognized the obvious demonic manifestations that we see in these "charismatic" meetings.

If Bentley hadn't disappointed these self-appointed idiots, they would still be singing the praises of this foolishness. But by focusing on the personality of one of the proponents, instead of pointing out the obvious demonic activity, the madness is allowed to continue, unabated.

No watchmen are these; dupes of Satan they are.

I tell you, the kind of responses that have been forthcoming, are exactly what Satan needs to continue his deception.

Blessings,
William


I want to believe!
Re: Apostles [message #3081 is a reply to message #3080 ] Sat, 30 August 2008 12:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
grandom  is currently offline grandom
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I agree with you brothers 100%

Here is an article for you all to peruse.
http://www.pfo.org/r-joyner.htm
Wonder why these prophets and apostles of today are the way they are?

I think this will explain it quite nicely.

Wonder why todays Christians are sucked in.

They receive their little thimble of the word on sunday, never read or study the word for themselves and then wonder why their world is going to hell in a hand basket.If the so called leaders of today feel the old mouldy(not moulder) Confused word of God isnt relevant for today and we need new revelation, God help us.

Look for signs and wonders. Much easier then seeking for themselves. I guess also if you belong to a "balanced church" you wont be to concerned about what Jesus said in His word. Get right down to it Jesus message wasn`t very well balanced. It was pretty much "my way or the highway".He didnt balance it out with man`s humanistic "feeling". Did I ever get an answer as to what a balanced church is. Cant remember.

Watchman. Keep watching.matt 24:43
Re: Apostles [message #3101 is a reply to message #3081 ] Wed, 03 September 2008 16:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
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Here's another burr that's under my saddle...GOD TV, owned by Rory and Wendy Alec. The third video about Jesus coming to Lakeland was prophecied by Wendy...Hello? Guess that came true also. I know there are laws that seperate church and state, but somebody needs to investigate these two and God TV. How much money did they milk ditzy christians around the world out of? Where are they now? Still counting it probably. This Wendy Alec told viewers if they questioned or spoke against Todd Bentley they would lose their healing. What's the owner of a TV station/web site, doing telling people what to do, much less pretending to be a prophetess? Can you say, self serving conflict of interest?

Can you imagine what unsaved people with any worldly wisdom think of this whole mess. If this is the results of salvation, then who would want to be saved? The charismatic movement is the laughing stock of the world; and not in a good way ( as the righteous will suffer persecution ).

God help us all.


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: Apostles [message #3104 is a reply to message #3101 ] Wed, 03 September 2008 17:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
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"If thou hast run with the footmen, and they have wearied thee, then how canst thou contend with horses? and if in the land of peace, wherein thou trustedst, they wearied thee, then how wilt thou do in the swelling of Jordan?" Jeremiah 12:5

The answer is they will perish... no discernment; no grounding in The Word; no knowledge; no faith; no love for the things of God; no understanding.

"Having a form of godliness,but denying the power thereof..." II Tim.3:5

Drowning and refusing that which would save them... THE WORD


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: Apostles [message #3107 is a reply to message #3104 ] Thu, 04 September 2008 07:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
grandom  is currently offline grandom
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james wrote on Wed, 03 September 2008 17:20




"Having a form of godliness,but denying the power thereof..." II Tim.3:5



Here is an article about a man who is not denying the power,

http://www.pfo.org/exploits.htm

What say you James.
Re: Apostles [message #3108 is a reply to message #3107 ] Thu, 04 September 2008 09:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
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In the words of Gomer Pyle; "SUPRISE, SUPRISE, SUPRISE !!!"

What's new? Looks like the same spirit at work that we saw in Todd Bentley and Co......... SHAZAM !!!

Sorry brother, I couldn't bring myself to finish that whole piece...Bout the only thing there believable, was the two little 12 yr. old girls in Costa Rica believing God to bring their pet chicken back to life. I can see God honoring their child like faith, though Jan Crouch saying it gives me cause to doubt.

I really wasn't that aware of these crazy antics going on within the charsmatic movement until the last few months of researching Bentley/Lakeland. I kinda was living in my little world, waiting for Jesus to come back and not being involved in the 'religious community'. I just read on some web site last night that Steve Hill ( now SJ Hill )was involved in the Brownsville/Pensacola deception and Kansas City prophets in the 90's. Makes me wonder, HOW could someone with his knowledge of The Word get into that stuff?

[What sez james]... i'll defer to...What saith God!

" And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:" II Thessalonians 2:11

james does say: " Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness." II Peter 3:13

Come quickly Lord Jesus.


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: Apostles [message #3109 is a reply to message #3108 ] Thu, 04 September 2008 09:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
grandom  is currently offline grandom
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James,
You may find this of some interest.
Here is a list of credentials that S.J. a.k.a. Steve Hill has posted on his site from fathersglory.com

S.J. Hill is a gifted leader and teacher in the Body of Christ with over thirty years of experience in the ministry. He has pastored, as well as worked with David Hogan and Freedom Ministries in Mexico. S.J. Has been on the faculty of the Brownsville Revival School of Ministry and the F.I.R.E. School of Ministry. He has also taught at Mike Bickle's Forerunner School of Ministry in Kansas City, Missouri.

I have to seriously question S.J. and his associations.

Form his own web site: He is currently teaching part-time at the F.I.R.E. School of Ministry in Concord, North Carolina. Some may say Ok no big deal. Here is not all but the greater majority of faculty at F.I.R.E.

Michael L. Brown
President, Professor of Practical Theology
B.A (Queens College), M.A. (New York University), Ph.D. (New York University). Dr. Brown served as a leader in the Brownsville Revival from 1996-2000 and birthed FIRE School of Ministry in 2001.

Darrell Jessee
Domestic Internship Coordinator
Associate’s Degree (Brownsville Revival School of Ministry

Dion Light
Assistant Director of FIRE International
Associate’s Degree (Brownsville Revival School of Ministry)

Michael Lubanovic
Outreach Director of FIRE Church
B.A. (Youngstown State University), Associate’s Degree (Brownsville Revival School of Ministry).
Brian Parkman
Instructor of Practical Theology
Associate’s Degree (Brownsville Revival School of Ministry
Lori Parkman
Instructor of Practical Theology
Associate’s Degree (Brownsville Revival School of Ministry

Aaron Crider
Music Department Director and Instructor of Music
Associate’s Degree (Brownsville Revival School of Ministry)

As you will see if you go to his sites you will see no mention of Faith Assembly (imagine that) or that Hobart Freeman was his father-in-law.

I have heard only one recent message that he preached in Syracuse In.. Actually it was pretty safe.A lot like the demon systems of today. Love boat stuff.

Eph 5:11 comes to mind.And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

Watchman, What of the night

Re: Apostles [message #3111 is a reply to message #3108 ] Thu, 04 September 2008 09:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sparkles  is currently offline sparkles
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It truly is amazing some of the deceptions that are out there in the charismatic world. And unfortunately there is alot of it creeping (no, make that running) into the mainline churches. If I remember right David Hogan visited the re-invented Faith Assembly, long after Brother Freeman had died, a couple times. I do not remember anyone giving testimony of any miracles done there. Somewhere I have an old tape of David Hogan that was passed out in the late 80's or early 90's and remember him telling a story of being in a McDonald's restaurant when it was really busy, but he did not have time to wait in line, so he started to speak in tongues out loud. Now this scared some of the people so then he was able to go to the front since people left. I believe he said he would do this when he was in a hurry. What a mockery of the wonderful gift of the Holy Spirit. Seems like all these people are closely linked together one way or another, like with Rodney Howard Browne, who brought the "holy laughter" to the "revival" in Toronto. I can remember him telling people he was praying for, to just put their mind in neutral, not pray, just laugh. Then he would have everyone just start laughing. There was even a part where someone would stand up front and lead everyone in "holy laughter." When people put alot of these deceptions together you end up with Toronto, Brownsville, Grand Rapids First Assembly, Lakeland, some churches in England, Africa, and only the Lord and the Devil know where else much of this is going on.
Re: Apostles [message #3112 is a reply to message #3109 ] Thu, 04 September 2008 09:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
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Grandom

Looks to me like maybe we seeing the same thing??? Reckon one of us 'watchmen' ought to move to a different spot along the wall? Smile

That is exactly what I was reading last night about Steve, and I too wondered, Is he ashamed of his past or decived? Maybe Hombre has thoughts on him since he sat under his ministry.

[Updated on: Thu, 04 September 2008 09:35]


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: Apostles [message #3116 is a reply to message #3112 ] Thu, 04 September 2008 11:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
grandom  is currently offline grandom
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[quote title=Hombre wrote on Thu, 04 September 2008 10:02][quote

My personal thoughts regarding Steve are that I do care about him, and pray that he will begin to work through the issues that have caused him to be where he is today.

My sentiments exactly. We all have to be very careful that we dont have a self righteous spirit. But for the grace of God none of us would be where we now are. For what ever reason in His sovereighty
He has allowed us not to be a Todd Bentley or a mass murderer or whatever else we could have become.We could say that would never happen to me. If that be our attitude then I believe that pride goeth before a fall. Read that once. Thank God for His faithfulness towards us undeserving slaves.

Even those of us that can`t seem to work the quote thingy. Confused
Re: Apostles [message #3117 is a reply to message #3116 ] Thu, 04 September 2008 12:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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Quote:

Even those of us that can`t seem to work the quote thingy. Confused


You can either use the quote button (12th from the left) and then paste your quote in the middle of the quote marks or you can type (I'm reversing the brackets so they will show up!) ]quote[ put your quote here... and then type (reversed again) ]/quote[ and that should work.

Alternately you can select QUOTE instead of REPLY and the whole note will be quoted along with who the quote is from... you can then delete any part of the quote you don't want to show up.

Blessings,
William

[Updated on: Thu, 04 September 2008 12:05]


I want to believe!
Re: Apostles [message #3118 is a reply to message #3117 ] Thu, 04 September 2008 12:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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Hey, it didn't work... maybe it is because the thread is too long! I'll check it out.


I want to believe!
Re: Apostles [message #3119 is a reply to message #3118 ] Thu, 04 September 2008 12:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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I just fixed it in my note by removing some of the layers!


I want to believe!
Re: Apostles [message #3123 is a reply to message #3078 ] Thu, 04 September 2008 20:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jisamazed  is currently offline jisamazed
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Hombre wrote on Sat, 30 August 2008 10:40

JWBTI wrote on Sat, 30 August 2008 08:07

Jae, I may have assumed that from: The fact that you seemed to defend Todd Bentley an Lakeland by your silence,but youwere always ready to be vocal about your opposition to Fa an Hobart Freeman and his teachings...


Huh....I seem to remember that Jae was not JUST silent, but rather ready to defend Bentley against moi if necessary.

..may I quote:

Jisamazed, Post#2684

....Watchman, thank you for that post. I hear people from both sides of the Todd Bentley debate. Some strong opinions both of them. All the more reason for making sure we get our facts right before making public statements about him.
Hombre, I never was ready to defend Bentley against you or anyone else. Stop reading stuff into my words. I said what I said. We (referring to myself as much as anyone else) have to get facts straight before we make public statements. I had researched some material on his website, but I did not have time to do a lot of other research on him. I only watched about 3 minutes of him on video. I did not have God TV and don't have the ability to watch streaming video. Frankly, I'm not on the computer very much. If I didn't have primary material to quote, why would I comment based on secondary sources? I don't like to jump on bandwagons. You had the time to do research, and that was helpful. Just because I didn't does not mean that I was ready to defend him, as you say.
That was August 8th.

This is August 18th:

Jisamazed, Post #2827

....I am focused on helping people who are addicted to alcohol, have marriages that are breaking up, helping to clear up their theoligical confusion, etc... These have to come first before the research on Todd Bentley. That whole scene will fade over time, but my friends need my help right now.....

....Much as I like this forum, it is not a top priority for me, sorry to say.

....It's not just about resisting peer pressure. I just can't do it. And I don't think I need to so much anymore. Between Todd baptizing people in the name of "Bam-bam", getting divorced and getting power from his tatoos, more and more people are starting to realize that maybe he is not what they originally thought he was.


You mean, who YOU thought he might be, right? No, I had concerns about him from the beginning and expressed them. I was thinking more about friends and family members who started communicating their disgust to me about his behavior. I had expressed concerns to them, and they eventually came back to me and essentially said, "Yeah, I can see that now."

BTW, Jis...perhaps you should make this forum more of a priority in your life, especially if you are counseling people with 'real' problems in your life. If you couldn't discern that there was something amiss with Todd Bentley I did, but chose to not make a lot of noise about it until I could give some more facts, how on earth are you going to help your clients discern more subtle problems for which there is NO written or video record with which to measure or reference anything in their lives by? You've got it backwards. I meet with people face to face and am able to discern their problems in person, not on TV or youtube or in writing. Most of the time their problems are obvious, such as substance abuse or unforgiveness or unbelief. I have much more exposure to my clients than I did to Todd or the Lakeland thing.

I might be nuts for saying this, but I think that you would benefit from working with the homeless and mentally ill and guiding them through their recovery. I would like to invite you or anyone else on this forum to spend a day at work with me (the paperwork part would be boring) with the downtrodden. Go to the mission at night and help lead chapel, especially if you can lead worship or share a one-off. When you get in the gutter with the outcasts of society every day, you tend to view the world a little bit differently. One day might not make a difference for you, I don't know, but listening and observing the suffering of others who are created in God's image tends to free us from smugness and rearranges our spiritual priorities.

This forum IS important. It has been helpful, but so was the book "The Holiness of God" by R.C. Sproul. Helpful, but not essential.

This forum is VERY important.

This forum is a work of GOD.

Thus saith the Lord. Careful now. We are called to judge your prophecies just as much as those of Dutch Sheets.

We don't know where He is taking us or how, but if I were you, I'd get on the bandwagon and start listening. Nope, no bandwagons. Bandwagons get in the way of hearing God's voice. The Toronto thing is a great example. God is the source of wisdom, not some psychology book... (y'know, I never took a psychology course in college, but I probably should; psychology is simply the study of the human personality, and the Bible has a lot to say about it; in a sense, anyone who cares about the fact that man is made in God's image is a psychologist of sorts, in that the Bible tells us who we are- body, soul and spirit- and what that means for us) and if you want the RIGHT answers to your clients problems to help them with, you need to get your theology in line with Gods' word first so that you can begin to have the one on one with Him that we ALL need more than anything else. Yes, I have to rely on Him every day to do what I do. You seem to be assuming that I am trying to do some sort of psychological manipulation or hocus-pocus on people. You don't really know what I do. I help them find housing or a job or secure benefits as needed. I help them to clear up their confusion about life, and gently and slowly help them to see that they are their own worst enemy, and that there is hope for them. Because the agency I work for is not a "Christian" agency, I have to wait for them to want to talk about the Lord rather than bringing it up when I want to do so. It has actually been good for me. My primary function is to offer people hope. Several of my clients have gotten saved, backsliders returned to the Lord, drug addicts delivered, depressed have found joy, demonized are set free, confused become clear. I would love to share some specific testimonies some time, but I'm concerned that I would get nit-picked at, and that would deflate the joy of it.

..you really need to re-evaluate your entire humanistic take on the Word of God that you have been sucked into through years of exposure to the system. False discernment, Hombre. You missed it on that one. I know whom I have believed.
JWBTI wrote on Sat, 30 August 2008 08:07

I would question now.....Why.... would they allow the DVD in your church if they thought it was wrong ?
At the time we didn't think it wrong. We are all growing, and the Toronto thing did not seem like a big deal at the time. They were simply worship DVD's and did not expound any doctrine. No one barked like a dog or anything weird like that. I would holler more now if someone tried to do that again, but it is still a minor matter compared to other stuff that we fight. I supposed you can mock or laugh or jump all over that one, but the Lord is more patient with us than than anyone else.

Yes...that is an excellent question....why?

1. ....because they don't know any better, i.e..they don't have any discernment, or
2. they do know better but their fear of man is greater than their desire to do right.


JWBTI wrote on Sat, 30 August 2008 08:07

Jae wrote:
You need to give me a little bit more credit.

Rons reply:
I can't do that !.................... I've read your posts !


Jae does work hard in bringing us what he does, it's just that it's content is skewed by HIS thinking. He reaches very logical and credible conclusions, it's just that they aren't defensible from the Word of God, unless that is, you want to bend the Word into something ineffectual like the system does.
When have I bent the Word? The scriptures are my food, and the reason why I endure the misunderstanding and disrespect on this forum. I want to discuss scriptures with others who share the same experiences and evaluate them in light of the Word.

I once heard a preacher say that '....God wants us to follow Him, but He doesn't give us a road map....' He wants us to take a step at a time IN FAITH, NOTHING DOUBTING...for he that wavers is like a wave in the sea, driven by the winds and tossed.

Jae had the choice to follow *us* or Todd or to vacillate in the manner of his church. He chose the *safe* route....sponsored by Worldy Wisdom Inc. This is WHY it is of PARAMOUNT IMPORTANCE to KNOW the Word of God...when we need discernment it either lives in us, or it doesn't..and the system is NOT breeding or seeding the heart ground of believers with GOOD SEED, but sterile seed that produces NOTHING. Sure, the people are nice, they have confessed Jesus as Lord, they serve in their various committees and generally go about doing good, but it is The WORD OF GOD that will save one in the day of destruction, NOT church membership.

I don't condemn Jae. Jae is confused by his own intelligence. I know what I believe. I desire to walk in integrity and rightly divide the word of truth. I say as he does toward Todd: we can pray for him. I would appreciate prayer. What I don't receive are the prayer curses that FAers used to direct towards those who "opposed the message." Jesus is my Lord, and none of that can affect me in any way. I bless those who curse me in such a way. God's blessing is stronger than their curse.


JWBTI wrote on Sat, 30 August 2008 08:07

Ref: Dutch Sheets,
I'am glad he's repented now, but that is like calling in the Fire dept after the house is already burnt to the ground.
Opps........ should have called 911 a few months ago.....Sorry !

What about C. Peter Wagner ?

Revival: Lakeland II

Brought to us by the same Deceived people that started Lakeland I
Ps: Todd Bentley has left the building......Sorry !


...may I quote the Bible?

'....But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.....' ~ 2 Tim. 3:13

Seducers.

Those who seduce mens minds from the simplicity which is in Christ.

How do they do that?

Through twisting the obvious with humanistic thinking...it may not even be that they are aware that they are doing so..in fact, they may think that they are doing God a favor.

'...Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, RIGHTLY DIVIDING the word of truth...' ~ 2 Tim. 2:15

Dividing.

That's an important word. It means to me that the Word can be interpreted wrongly, and Paul warns Timothy of that...yet God expects us to be able to discern what IS right....

How?

Through study.

..as a little child.

...in faith, believing.

..so then, WHO is it that is now ashamed?

....perhaps if they had studied more and entertained less they might have seen what they thought was spiritual to be the bizarre freak show it was...or perhaps they only wanted the vainglorious acceptance of men in their rush to acknowledge Todd, in hopes that they could be seen to be the 'Apostles' that they claim to be.

'.....Let the word of Christ dwell in you RICHLY in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord....' ~ Co. 3:16

'...but shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness....and their word will eat as doth a canker...' 2 Tim. 2: 16-17

'...keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called: which some professing have erred concerning the faith....' 1 Tim. 6:21-2

..would barking like a dog, roaring like a lion and clucking like a chicken qualify as vain babbles ?

...and would the gyrations of females to incubi qualify as profane?

..doesn't look like one needs a degree in rocket science theology to discern those.

..WHY would someone 'need more time' to make a decision about things like this?

...regarding the 'Apostles: ..is their knowledge of the Bible absolutely devoid of understanding?

TRULY...these men are in desperate need of not only prayer but a disrobing for their own and others safety.

'....But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear....' ~ 1 Ptr. 3:15

...was there an OUNCE of meekness in any of these guys?

...was not Moses 'the meekest man on the face of the earth', yet it was he that God chose to demonstrate the greatest power that the world had seen?

...for more of the ridiculous, see the still running 7 page, 253 comment, read 5,000 times, 'Lakeland Revival?' thread.

I don't think any of us need to make a life study of that, there is already an abundance of material on it.

We have a promise, brethren..and it isn't going to be found in a supernatural sideshow, which was really the entire problem. People looking at the supernatural instead of focusing on who God reveals Himself to be, according to the Word of God.

'....And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it. ....' ~ 1 Thess. 5:23-4

[COLOR=blue] Amen to that. Continue to repeat the Word of God in its intended meaning in context, and you will gain authority to your hearers. I have noticed that you have matured over the past months, and the Lord will bless you as you continue to learn to excel in the gifts as the Lord has told us.[/[/COLOR]COLOR]


Amazed smitten astonished stunned floored blown away astounded shocked flabbergasted surprised wonderfully devastated awed shattered overwhelmed incredulous speechless sense of wonder at the love of God.
Re: Apostles [message #3124 is a reply to message #3123 ] Thu, 04 September 2008 21:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sparkles  is currently offline sparkles
Messages: 249
Registered: March 2008
Senior Member
Jae wrote: What I don't receive are the prayer curses that FAers used to direct towards those who "opposed the message."

Not to worry, as Hobart Freeman was the first one I heard preach against witchcraft praying. He would exhort his church not to pray their will into a situation, but to pray according to God's will, or just pray in the Spirit, as the Holy Spirit would know what to pray.

At my friends ex church this type of prayer is going on and it has caused a major split in the church. Thankfully my friend heard Dr. Freeman preach on the subject so when it started to happen she had been warned of such things.

[Updated on: Thu, 04 September 2008 21:14]

Re: Apostles [message #3317 is a reply to message #3124 ] Fri, 12 September 2008 11:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jisamazed  is currently offline jisamazed
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Registered: January 2008
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Senior Member
Sageshroomer wrote on Thu, 04 September 2008 21:11

Jae wrote: What I don't receive are the prayer curses that FAers used to direct towards those who "opposed the message."

Not to worry, as Hobart Freeman was the first one I heard preach against witchcraft praying. He would exhort his church not to pray their will into a situation, but to pray according to God's will, or just pray in the Spirit, as the Holy Spirit would know what to pray.

At my friends ex church this type of prayer is going on and it has caused a major split in the church. Thankfully my friend heard Dr. Freeman preach on the subject so when it started to happen she had been warned of such things.



Yet people from FA used to curse people all the time. "If you leave this message, terrible things will happen to you." A curse of sorts. "If you criticize HEF, you are opposing God's anointed and God will get you for it." A curse. The Lord does not honor such talk, obviously, but Satanic forces try to make the most of it. I can remember word ministers (or wannabes) stating from the pulpit that people should not even think of leaving the group, and why would you want to unless you were backslidden? HEF taught against curse prayer, yes, but he did not put the kabosh on word ministers and others putting guilt on people for leaving the church, or threatening them with terrible consequences for doing so. He made some similar statements himself. He was not alone. Word of Faith teachers were doing the same thing down in Texas, and of course the shepherdship teachers used that kind of cursing and guilt to control people. A person who teaches against curse prayer is not immune from promoting that mentality himself.


Amazed smitten astonished stunned floored blown away astounded shocked flabbergasted surprised wonderfully devastated awed shattered overwhelmed incredulous speechless sense of wonder at the love of God.
Re: Apostles [message #3319 is a reply to message #3123 ] Fri, 12 September 2008 11:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jisamazed  is currently offline jisamazed
Messages: 170
Registered: January 2008
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Senior Member
Hombre wrote on Fri, 05 September 2008 09:15

jisamazed wrote on Thu, 04 September 2008 20:14

...Continue to repeat the Word of God in its intended meaning in context, and you will gain authority to your hearers. I have noticed that you have matured over the past months, and the Lord will bless you as you continue to learn to excel in the gifts as the Lord has told us.


Hey, thanks a lot your majesty....that reads a little like a fortune cookie though.

Jae, I must be completely honest with you.

I like having you on this forum.

Why?

..because without you we are all for the most part in agreement....and you bring that Dathan element to the table that so clearly defines our issues for us, and makes us all the more determined to stay on our side of the line.

Thanks for playing the role of the devils advocate here. If no one else but me appreciates that, then at least you have that feather in your hat.

Smile


So you are the status quo now. You don't like the status quo and consider yourself a maverick that shakes up "the unbelieving church". However, on this forum you take the role of the status quo who opposes the maverick.

Such has been the case throughout church history. Sometimes groups have to separate from the status quo in order to clarify how the true church is supposed to believe or act, and to stay untainted from wickedness. Some reformation groups were like that, the Waldenses, the Puritans, etc... Almost without exception each group became its own status quo and repressed the challenges to their own ideas. FA was no different.


Amazed smitten astonished stunned floored blown away astounded shocked flabbergasted surprised wonderfully devastated awed shattered overwhelmed incredulous speechless sense of wonder at the love of God.
Re: Apostles [message #3356 is a reply to message #3319 ] Sat, 13 September 2008 18:22 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
watchman  is currently offline watchman
Messages: 15
Registered: April 2008
Location: North Carolina
Junior Member

I thought you all would like to read the prophecy that Sharon Stone gave to Rory and Wendy Alex (GodTV founders) before she professed over Todd in his "commission" on YouTube. I talks about "criticisms by the end of the summer."

June 22, 2008
Dr. Sharon Stone
Belfast, Northern Ireland

As I left my hotel this morning, My spirit was pulled to the building across the street. And I began to prophesy. The building turned out to be the BBC.
Media Revivals have just begun. You have not seen anything yet. Major cities and obscure villages will be a part of My demonstrations in the earth. This is an updating across nations, living rooms and those on the internet. The experiential truths will be the topic of conversations in government buildings, business offices and university campuses. The sick being healed, those in bondage being delivered and the dead raised will infuse believers with faith to do the works of believers. Hope will arise in those needing My miraculous power.
Rory and Wendy Alex have gone through this gate in 2008, now many will follow. Rory and Wendy the Lord says you did not make a mistake, regardless of the criticisms that will come at by the end of the summer.
God says to His church, I have used the most offensive means to break religious taboos. I will allow men to fail that the nations will look to me not man alone. Do not be a part of vultures that eat upon something once it is dead. If your feet get dirty I will wash them, but you will have seen me.
This September 2008 let my cleansing winds blows over My global church. Encourage yourselves, I am bringing My Revival of Spirit and Truth.


Dr. Sharon Stone
Christian International Europe


If you want to see her in the commissioning look in YouTube under Todd Bentley's Apostolic and Prophetic Commissioning 2/4--- 3min 59 seconds.

The answer to the question "what prophet would you pay money to for prophecy." I think the answer is an accurate one!

David


Watchman
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