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Lakeland Revival??? [message #1939] Tue, 27 May 2008 11:18 Go to next message
james  is currently offline james
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Is it just me, or are there others out there who get BIG TIME CHECKS in their spirit when they hear and see Todd Bentley? Is anyone paying attention to what he SAYS,the unscriptural mumbo jumbo coming out of his mouth? I don't keep up with, nor do I want to, the religious community and the latest goings on in those circles, that being said, I have been researching and reading up on the "revival in Lakeland, Florida" because I know of christian friends, who have not been blessed with the grounding in the Word, who are thinking "JESUS IS IN FLORIDA RAISING THE DEAD AND HEALING THE SICK" using Todd Bentley. Now they're viewing me as a bad guy cause I don't get all worked up,wanting to take off to go see these great signs and wonders.( Like I really care what people think of me). Jesus told us to test the spirits to see if they be of God, to look at the fruit produced to see what kind of tree it is. Surely I'm not alone in discerning this as what it really is...a wolf in sheeps clothing, fleecing good meaning christians, people who want to experience God and see His power, yet don't have The Word in them or don't listen to The Holy Spirit to discern between the works of God and works of demons(he calls them angels sent from Jesus). This is IMO just another example of Gods' Word being fulfilled in these last days. True prophets and teachers have been warning us, yep, HEF included, for years to watch and be viligant, for in the last days there would be false prophets and deceivers who would draw away many...saying He's here, He's there. Matt.7:15-27 Seek to be the WISE man, build on "THE ROCK" my brethern. We have been given "THE LIGHT",GODS HOLY WORD. I want to SHARE it and shine it on darkness to light the way for others seeking to travel this road to ETERNAL LIFE.


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: Lakeland Revival??? [message #1940 is a reply to message #1939 ] Tue, 27 May 2008 12:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
grandom  is currently offline grandom
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Appreciate your post on lakelad fla brother.

I can assure you whole heartedly that this is a move of God.

2Thes 2 :9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

Any doubts now?
Re: Lakeland Revival??? [message #1943 is a reply to message #1940 ] Tue, 27 May 2008 14:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mark L  is currently offline Mark L
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Todd Bentley received the annointing he operates under at the Toronto Airport church. He was part of that church for a long time even writing a column in their magazine.
I think God at times can operate in ways outside our understanding but he is not going to do it in violation of his word. The special annointing at the airport came from OUTSIDE the christian church. There is a direct line from Ken Copeland through Rodney Howard Browne to the airport church leadership and by extension Bentley. I'm not interested in discussing Ken Copeland here. If anyone thinks he is a christian minister then God help them.
I'm including a newletter below that was sent out recently by one of the former leadership at the airport church because I think it is relevant. Todd Bentley received the annointing he operates under at the Airport Church so anything to do with that church is relevant.


Re: Lakeland Revival??? [message #1944 is a reply to message #1943 ] Tue, 27 May 2008 14:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mark L  is currently offline Mark L
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The TORONTO DECEPTION-by former Toronto Vineyard Pastor Paul Gowdy

It has taken me nine years to actually come to the place where I would write this story. Part of the reason was because I was not fully convinced that it is appropriate to speak out against weaknesses in the body of Christ publicly. Another reason is because it has taken years of soul searching to become convinced that what happened in the Toronto Airport Church was
actually all bad or at least more bad than good!

For the past number of years I have called it a mixed blessing. I think James A. Beverly called it this in his book Holy Laughter and the Toronto Blessing 1994. Today I would call it a mixed curse concluding that any individual good that came from this experience is far outweighed by much harm and satanic deception. I suppose that therein has been my dilemma. I have tried to live my life in the fear of the Lord and Jesus told us that the unforgivable sin was the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Attributing to Satan what was in fact a work of God. If pressed as to whether or not the Toronto blessing is all God or all Devil I will still be hedgy, but I am convinced that Satan has used this experience to blind people to the historical doctrines of God, to produce fruit in keeping with repentance, to failing to test and discern the spirits and failing to test prophecy.

After three years of being in the thick of the Toronto blessing our Vineyard assembly in Scarborough ( East Toronto) just about self destructed. We devoured one another, with gossip, backstabbing, division, sects criticism etc. After three years of ‘soaking,’ praying
for people, shaking, rolling, laughing, roaring, ministering at TACF on their prayer team, leading worship at TACF, preaching at TACF, basically living at TACF we were the most carnal, immature and deceived Christians that I know. I remember saying to my friend and senior pastor at Scarborough Vineyard Church in 1997 that ever since the Toronto Blessing came we have just about fallen to bits! He agreed!

My experience has been that the manifestation of spiritual gifts mentioned in 1st Corinthians 12 was much more common in our assembly before January 1994 (when the Toronto blessing started) than during this period of supposed Holy Spirit visitation.

During 1992-1993 when praying for people we would experience what I believe was genuine prophesy, deliverance and much grace and favour from the Lord. After the Toronto Blessing started, all ministry time changed, the only prayers were ‘More Lord MORE’,
the shouting of ‘Fire’ the jerky shaking of the body with the ‘ooh ooh OOH WOOOAAH’ prayer. (I kid you not!)

On January 20th 1994 about 15 people from our church traveled over to Toronto Airport Vineyard in order to listen to Randy Clark, a Vineyard pastor from the USA. John Arnott had called our senior pastor to invite us. He communicated that Randy had been to the Rodney Howard Browne meetings and that the stuff had broke out in his church in the following weeks. John was hoping that something might break out with us too. We were only too happy to travel over. We were a church plant out of the Toronto Airport and we started in 1992. In those days there were three Vineyard Churches in Toronto. One Down Town church, Scarborough vineyard church to the east and the Airport Church. We were one big happy family. Because we were small in number we did special meetings, conferences etc, together.

The year before most of our leadership teams joined and had headed to Nicaragua for a short term missions trip. We had genuine love and fellowship with each other. Since leaving the Vineyard churches I have read a fair bit of analysis from the critics.

Some make out that the Toronto Blessing was one huge conspiracy to lead the body of Christ into heresy. Heresy and apostasy I suspect may well be the result, but none of these destinations were intentional. I am honestly convinced that the leaders in the Vineyard churches are genuine born-again Christians who love the Lord, but have fallen into deception. They have not loved the Lord enough to keep His commandments. They have failed to obey the scriptures and have been led astray by our longing for something bigger and brighter and more exciting and dynamic. I am guilty of this sin also. I have preached renewal in Korea, the United Kingdom, the USA and here in Canada. I am genuinely repentant and in writing this story I would ask you the bride and body of Christ to forgive me. Especially the Pentecostal/Charismatic Christians among you, for you are my immediate family theologically. I am an evangelical Christian, I always have been but I do not believe in the cessation of the spiritual gifts at the end of the apostolic era. I believe that it was my evangelical roots (my family are Baptists and I was born again in the
Presbyterian Church.) that started to open my eyes to problems with this so called renewal. In hind sight I look back and think how could I have been so blind? I laughed at people acting like dogs and pretending to urinate on the columns of the TACF building.

I watched people pretend to be animals, bark, roar, cluck, pretend to fly as if they had wings, perpetually act drunk and sing silly songs. How I thought that any of this was from the Holy Spirit of God amazes me today. It was loud irreverent and blasphemous to the Holy God of the Bible. I suppose in my mind I reasoned that as long as they did not teach any thing in direct violation to scripture then it was what we called the exotic. This is a buzz word for manifestations that could not be justified from a biblical perspective. I was taught from the pulpit that we had two options. The order of the nursery full of life and messy or the order of the graveyard, very orderly but dead! As a young immature pastor I wanted life with mess. I failed to remember that God wants us to become mature and grow up in him. I became disconcerted by the prophetic words that came forth especially one by Carol Arnott in which she had her bride experience where she was taken into the very presence of Jesus and said that the love that she experienced was even better than sex! I was shocked in my spirit and thought how can one compare the love of God with sex? When we suspected that demons were running riot in our services John Arnott would teach that we should ask are they coming or going.

If they are leaving then that is ok! John would defend the chaos by saying that we ought not be afraid of being deceived, if we have asked the Holy Spirit to come and fill us then how could Satan come and deceive us? This would make Satan very strong and God very weak! He said that we needed to have more faith in a Big God to protect us than in a Big Devil to deceive us. This sounded very convincing but was totally contrary to scripture for Jesus and Paul and Peter and John all warn us about the power of deceiving spirits and especially so in the last days. Again we did not love God enough to obey His Word and the result was that we opened ourselves up to lying spirits. May God have mercy upon us!

Finally the penny dropped for me as I was rolling around one night ‘drunk in the Spirit’ as we would say. I started singing and as I rolled around the floor the Nursery Rhyme ‘Mary had a little lamb its fleece was white as snow.’ came to mind. I sang this in a mocking spirit and instantly my heart told me this was a demon. Instantly I repented and was in total shock. How could a demon get into me? Did I not love God? Was I not zealous for the things of God? Was I not nuts about Jesus? I knew that an unclean spirit had just manifested through me and I was guilty of great sin. After this experience I stayed away from TACF. I did not go back there
any more. I did not possess the conviction to denounce the whole experience but thought that we where failing to pastor the Blessing well enough.

Even after I stopped going over to TACF, I had to pastor the fruit of it. One example was when some of our people returned from a meeting there asking us if we had all received the golden sword of the Lord? I asked them what they were talking about thinking that it was some prophetic reference to the Holy Scriptures but they said, ‘no, it's not the Bible, it’s an invisible golden sword that only the really pure can receive. If taken in an unrighteous fashion then the Lord would kill you. But if you are holy enough to receive it then you can wield this sword and it will heal AIDS, Cancer etc. and bring salvation. How one wielded this sword was by
pretending to have this invisible sword in your hand and motioning to strike people with it when in prayer!

I thought while even in deception at this time that the TACF had become Looney bins! This was purportedly first received by Carol Arnott and then given to the ones holy enough to receive it! Another thing was the golden fillings in the teeth. We had people in our assembly
peeping down one another’s throats looking for the gold fillings that God had placed there to show how much he loved them! In all my time there I only heard one message on repentance given by a visiting speaker from Hong Kong named Jackie Pullinger. It went over like a lead balloon. We were not there to repent, we were there to party in the Lord! After one year into the blessing I spoke out at a pastors meeting and said ‘guys we have shaken, rattled, rolled, laughed cried and bought the tee-shirt. But we have no revival, no salvation, no fruit and no increased evangelism so what’s the deal?’ I was soundly rebuked - who was I to expect to see fruit when the Lord was healing his broken people? We had been legalistic long enough and God was spending this time restoring his wounded and freeing us from legalism I was told not to push the Lord and the harvest would come in his time.’

I knew this was wrong because the Lord had commanded us to go into all the earth and make disciples! Not that everyone should take a sabbatical for who knows how long, while God does some strange new thing! Ultimately I left over something as controversial as the ordination of women. Personally I believe from scripture that women should not be pastors/elders in a local assembly. I could be wrong on this and there is much debate in the Church today but that is my conviction and in the Vineyard churches they were ordaining all the pastors' wives to co pastor with them. I am certainly for women in ministry but believe that the Elder/pastor role in a local assembly has been reserved for men. I did not write scripture but God willing I will have the grace from now on to obey it.

So there is my story. I could go on and document much excess, folly, sin and latter day reign teaching that manifest from the prophetic end of this Blessing but others have already done that. We sang about Joel’s army and the billion soul revival as if it were one of the Ten Commandments, and as always it was just around the corner. Next month, next year etc. Jesus said that when the son of man returns will he find faith upon the earth? And if he does not return when he does no flesh would be saved but for the sake of the elect he comes. This is a far cry from the dominionism that is being taught all through the vineyard/prophetic/ spiritual warfare
movement. I honestly think that they think they are going to take over the whole world! While in the Vineyard I embraced a life verse from the Apostle Paul the phrase do not go beyond what is written!

To finish I just want to say sorry for the damage, that I have personally done by teaching things that are not correct biblically. I repent before men as I already have before God. I will not excuse my falling into deception. I did not bother to test things when the scriptures commanded us to do so. Everyone who was there when this thing started knows that what I write is true, they would just come to different conclusions especially if they are still promoting the ‘river!’

To those in the river I would say swim out, there are things living in the water that will bite you real good! I love the people of TACF and the Vineyard movement but I think that we have much to answer for and may the Lord open your eyes sooner rather than later. I suspect that when this letter goes online I will get bombarded by emails from both camps, some damning me for still believing in the ministry of the Holy Spirit and still walking in deception and some old friends damning me for exposing dirt or being negative about the Lords anointed! Well, the Lord knows my heart and by his grace he will guide me into all truth as I seek to know Christ and him crucified! If you believe that I walk in sin and error please pray for me that the Lord would forgive me and open my eyes. I will study the word to show my self a work man approved! I would call on all who read this to pray that the Lord would open the eyes of all who have been involved in this deception. Whether leader or follower, we are loved and the Lord is a forgiving God. He says if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. I believe we are like the church in Laodicea, we think that we are rich, have prospered and need nothing, we do not realise that we are wretched, pitiable,
poor, blind and naked.

We must take the Counsel of Jesus and buy gold refined in the fire (which is his suffering, not a false spirit!), white garments to clothe our shameful nakedness and salve for our eyes that we might see again. Jesus is calling us to repentance and thank the Lord that he is, for it will lead us to true restoration with our Father! If God has forgiven me and opened my eyes then he can do it for all those caught in deception too. I will finish with a warning from Paul, he says if you think you are standing firm be careful lest you fall.

Sincerely Paul Gowdy.

Re: Lakeland Revival??? [message #1990 is a reply to message #1944 ] Mon, 02 June 2008 11:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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Great article, hardbones!

I see that there are a lot of posts lately and I'm trying to catch up a bit but I wanted to say that some of these deceptions can be avoided by making sure we are firmly grounded in the truth.

Charismatics often are so enamored by the supernatural that they fail to acknowledge that there are two sources of supernatural phenomena.

Jesus indicated that in the latter days there would be great deception. He exhorted his followers to "take heed" (Matt 24, Lk 21, Mk 13) because this would be a time when many would be deceived.

I have noticed that many of these "revivals" have been marked with one interesting characteristic-- uncontrollable physical phenomena (including vocal expressions) which can only be described as demonic in nature. I can only find a few cases in the bible (help me out if you know of others) where it seems as if another invisible entity affected the human body in such a way as to render it helpless.

1) Saul when he prophesied.
2) Peter when he was in a "trance".
3) The soldiers when they tried to take Jesus... they fell backwards.
4) The forced bowing of the knees at the name of Jesus.
5) Balaam's trance (Numbers 24)
6) Daniel's and John's visions
6) Obvious demonic activity.

Saul's case is a bit dubious for obvious reasons. In the case of Peter, Daniel, and John, it is unclear exactly what the "trance" included, or whether or not they were still able to control by an act of their will their own actions… Daniel apparently was without strength, but he seemed in charge of his mental faculties.

So with the above exceptions (which may not be exceptions) the other cases either represented the flesh failing in the presence of the Glory of God, or the presence of demonic activity.

I find it difficult to believe that God places "His" children into positions where their will is subdued by an outside force. This happens regularly in these revival (so called) meetings.

We of course are called to yield to the Holy Spirit when He seeks to lead us or direct us, but I see no scriptural support for any situation where a Christian becomes incapacitated to the extent that he no longer controls his physical movements or vocal apparatus, and becomes controlled by another "spirit", outside of cases of demonic possession.

God has given us a will and while he expects us to subject our volition to his leadings, at no time are we called to blank our minds and become robots... the ability to control our minds and our bodies is a wonderful thing, and not in the least bit unspiritual .

Blessings,
William

[Updated on: Tue, 03 June 2008 07:41]


I want to believe!
Re: Lakeland Revival??? [message #2018 is a reply to message #1990 ] Wed, 04 June 2008 22:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mark L  is currently offline Mark L
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This is a column by J Lee Grady - editor of Charisma
magazine on Lakeland.

I thought it was an interesting comment so I posted it here. They encourage you to pass it on so I assume from that there are no legal issues with posting it. I guess my point is that there is others who see a problem here.




An Appeal for Unity in a Divisive Season
The Lakeland Revival has created tensions over doctrine and ministry styles. To avoid a crippling rift in the church we need strong leadership, clear discernment and a lot of love.

Revival is messy. As much as we would love for it to come in a neat and orderly package, history teaches us that outbreaks of the Holy Spirit are often accompanied by holy chaos. There may be conversions and healings in one corner and demonic manifestations in the other. In seasons of revival you can have miracles and mayhem. Holiness and heresy can erupt simultaneously.

When we look at the first outpouring of the Holy Spirit in the book of Acts, we tend to focus on the positives: Dead people were raised, whole villages were saved and prison doors were opened supernaturally. On the flip side, this same revival season was interrupted by riots, opposed by religious legalists and tainted by false prophets, greedy charlatans and demons masquerading as angels.

Why must revival movements be so muddled? Perhaps it is because imperfect people (as well as sinister devils) get involved. Strange things happen when God’s power touches a sinful earth.

“I am appealing to the elders in our movement. In a desperate moment we need older, seasoned veterans to release the counsel of the Lord.”



When revival hit Wales in 1904, almost an entire nation bowed before Jesus within two years. Yet the weight of God’s presence drove the revival’s humble leader, Evan Roberts, into depression. Meanwhile author Jessie Penn-Lewis, writing in her book War on the Saints, suggested that fleshly manifestations in Welsh prayer meetings had snuffed out the Spirit’s power.

In our nation today thousands have been swept into the current of the Lakeland Revival in Florida, which began in early April in evangelist Todd Bentley’s meetings at Ignited Church. The fervor quickly spread because of God TV’s broadcasts, and today up to 10,000 gather nightly at a venue near the city’s airport. In recent days, people who were touched in Lakeland have started similar meetings in Atlanta, Chicago, Charlotte, N.C. and other cities. Bentley and his colleagues believe this is the beginning of a worldwide healing revival that will cover the globe.

But not everyone in the charismatic/Pentecostal community is convinced. Some say this is the last end-time revival while others maintain it is a demonic counterfeit. Cult-watchers and anti-heresy bloggers post Bentley’s comments on YouTube as evidence of a theological scandal. Revival advocates respond by posting documented evidence of healings. It all begins to resemble a childish competition.

Still others worry that Lakeland represents a questionable mixture of truth and error. Since the initial eruption of the revival, my inbox has been full of messages from charismatic leaders who are concerned about weighty issues as well as trivial ones: Everything from Bentley’s tattoos and body piercings to his claim that he once interviewed the apostle Paul in heaven.

When I wrote an article in mid-May calling for scrutiny of some aspects of the Lakeland Revival, I was labeled a Pharisee and a “religious policeman.” People who said they had been deeply impacted by the Holy Spirit in Lakeland used spiritual threats and harsh terms to tell me that I had become the enemy.

I refuse to go on the defensive, and if I need to retract any statement I’ve ever made about this revival I will. But what these nasty exchanges have shown me is that a divisive spirit is certainly at work in our midst—and we need urgent prayer to short-circuit what the devil wants to do.

When the early church was hit with the issue of Jewish legalism, Paul and Barnabas determined that the answer was to seek the counsel of “the apostles and elders” in Jerusalem (Acts 15:2, NASB). The church was being divided because the legalists were insisting that gentiles be circumcised. But when the elders looked into the matter, the apostle James settled the dispute by issuing this wise ruling:

“Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the gentiles, but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood” (v. 19-20). In other words, James affirmed the gentiles’ access to salvation and overturned the legalists’ bad doctrine.

Based on this biblical example, I am appealing to the elders in our movement. We need to hear from them in this hour. In a desperate moment we need older, seasoned veterans to release the counsel of the Lord.

Today the charismatic movement has become fractured, and opposing camps have formed. On one side there are those in the apostolic camp who tend to emphasize biblical order, proper church government, spiritual warfare and the reformation of society. On the other side are those in the prophetic camp who focus on miracles, healing, mystical experiences and the reclaiming of all the supernatural manifestations of the New Testament.

Both of these camps are contending for valid, biblical truths. We need the prophetic and the apostolic! We need miracles as much as we need healthy church growth and societal change. Yet if we do not have a holy intervention, we could bite and devour one another—and cancel out our collective impact.

A biblical council must include the leaders of both of these camps. And leaders must address all of the difficult issues triggered by the Lakeland Revival. Those include:

1. Biblical guidelines about angels. Some people in the prophetic camp speak of frequent visits to heaven, “third heaven revelations,” and long conversations with angels who use names such as Emma, Promise and Winds of Change. Are these indeed spirits sent from God, or agents of false light?

2. A proper theology of the dead. Some in the prophetic camp claim they have had conversations with dead Christians—including Paul the apostle. Is this within the bounds of Christian experience, or is it necromancy?

3. Pastoral guidance about exotic spiritual manifestations. In some circles in our movement, unusual signs and wonders have been reported in church services—including the sudden appearance of gold dust, feathers, gemstones and oil. At the same time, worshipers are vibrating on the floor, jerking uncontrollably and acting intoxicated. How can we protect people from the abuse of manifestations, and from demonic influence, while at the same time leaving room for genuine encounters with God?

4. Clear guidelines concerning the restoration of fallen ministers. The appearance of one prominent fallen evangelist, Paul Cain, at the Lakeland Revival in May unleashed strong reactions from many sectors of the church. Many people feel unprotected when they sense that church leaders have chosen not to enforce proper discipline for a minister’s unbiblical behavior. In this adulterous generation, how can we draw lines to protect congregations while at the same time offer healing and grace to a repentant preacher?

These are some of the crucial questions we face as a movement. May we proceed with a fresh gift of discernment, while at the same time laying hold of all the blessings that revival will bring us.

[Updated on: Wed, 04 June 2008 22:54]

Re: Lakeland Revival??? [message #2020 is a reply to message #2018 ] Thu, 05 June 2008 09:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
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It looks like Lee Grady is changing his views on the "revival @ Lakeland".When I first looked into this about a month ago, he had writen in his magazine how awsome this was and there was no mention of deceptions, false doctrines, angels of light, or demonic activity. It's good that he is now seeing what's really happening and at least asking people to be careful. And asking for the "leaders of our movement" to release the counsel of The Lord? I've not been a reader of Charisma magazine but I'd think it's widely read and has influnce on a lot of people, so hopefully this will help open some eyes... I don't think for a moment that this is just the "christian version of political correctness", well maybe for a second or two... Shocked I'd like to believe it was God opening his eyes to the truth, rather than pressure from others, that brought about the change in his reporting of what's occuring in Lakeland. Rolling Eyes

[Updated on: Thu, 05 June 2008 09:19]


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: Lakeland Revival??? [message #2021 is a reply to message #2018 ] Thu, 05 June 2008 11:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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The problem with his solution--a Church council, is that these two "sides" can never be reconciled. In Acts 15 you had a respected leader in James (where is that person today??) who in essence imposed a solution to the Gentile problem, which was accepted by the "official church" and placed the Judaizers outside of the realm of orthodox Christianity. There isn't a "compromise package" that will be accepted by all in this situation, just as there was no compromise to be found in Acts 15.

The language used in Acts 15 seems to be a compromise between the two parties, but in reality it forever placed the Judaizers doctrine outside of mainstream (in the good sense) Christianity.

To be fair, it did attempt to placate the Jews somewhat in that it attempted to remove some of the offensive practices of the Gentiles for the benefit of the Jewish Christians:

Acts 15:19-21 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

Gentiles were known for idolatry, fornication, and the practice of and eating things that turn the stomach of most people (meat with the blood). The last thing mentioned- abstaining from blood-- may be interpreted as something more than just the consumption of blood and include sacrifices and/or shedding human blood... I'm not sure... however, it is clear that by limiting Gentile regulations to these 4 commands, it effectively muted those who were advocates of Gentile law keeping.

If I might offer a loose paraphrase, he said: Because most of the cities have places where the law of Moses is preached, it is incumbent upon those who wish to effectively spread the Gospel message, that they don't offend Jews (and those few Gentiles who were under the Jewish influence) by doing things that would limit even a hearing of that message... (Idolatry, fornication, eating blood, etc..) At least this is the way I read it.

Paul takes the same sort of track when he "placates" the Jews by having Timothy circumcised (Acts 16:3 Him would Paul have to go forth with him; and took and circumcised him because of the Jews which were in those quarters: for they knew all that his father was a Greek.). This was an action that he opposed in Galatians (Ga 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.) To my mind this can only find rationality by assuming that the circumcision was only for one purpose--to further the Gospel. It had no other merit other than to allow him full access to the hearts and minds of those who fell under Jewish influence. Paul the pragmatist! Of course not all will agree with me, but this is exactly what I believe he did with a couple of other issues, namely with the headcovering and keeping women silent in the Greek Churches, only this time he did it with the Greek culture in mind and not the Jewish culture... but I digress.

A modern day council to deal with the present situation would need to make some sort of definitive statement that talking to dead people is unacceptable, and by implication, those who talk to dead people are dead wrong. Anyone think that a strong condemnation would be possible in the climate that exists today? Ha ha.

You might get a denom to make such a statement (I'll give them credit here!) but then they would condemn any supernatural, or angelic occurrence as well!

If it were just a Charismatic conference then you'd run into the problems that Hombre mentioned, a mostly devoid understanding of the supernatural realm beyond what we have witnessed over the last 20-30 years. Where is the person who would even have a prayer of being taken seriously? One who is grounded in the Word of God and also one aware of spiritual realities would be a tough find. The Gorden Linseys of the world are long gone (I could mention others but they have passed from the scene as well!)

So there...

Some of Jesus' last words to us while on the earth told us to "take heed" (Mt24,Lk21,Mk13) because there would be great deceptions that categorize the end-times, deceiving even the very elect if it were possible. So while it would be nice to have such a definitive council that could put an end to the nonsense that is going on, I personally don't think that it is possible, especially given the fact that true believers are going to be despised (and persecuted unmercifully), and maybe, in a large part, this is going to be due to their strong stand against such deception.

Blessings,
William

[Updated on: Thu, 05 June 2008 12:32]


I want to believe!
Re: Lakeland Revival??? [message #2022 is a reply to message #2021 ] Thu, 05 June 2008 11:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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Since Hombre has pioneered, and made acceptable, the practice of responding to one's own note... let me add this to further make the point:

Given the fact that most here sat under a ministry that exposed such deceptions... I think it would be hard even among ourselves to find wholesale agreement concerning the condemnation of these types of manifestations.

Blessings,
William


I want to believe!
Re: Lakeland Revival??? [message #2023 is a reply to message #2018 ] Thu, 05 June 2008 12:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jisamazed  is currently offline jisamazed
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I appreciate the insight that you guys are giving into this matter. I try to examine a ministry or movement carefully before judging it, to see if the theology is Biblical, the fruit is good and for the inner witness of the Holy Spirit. It is important to make an INFORMED judgment, and I have not been able to do so yet because I need more information. Some of my friends and family are into the Lakeland Revival, and speak positively about the verifyable healings and what appears to be scriptural teaching. Todd Bentley came to Grand Rapids a few months ago and gave his testimony.

I am not concerned about the tattoos and such. The Lord can use a donkey, a political rebel, tax collector and a former pharisee to do his work. He sometimes raises up unlikely persons to do important work because He likes to shake people up. However, if it is true that Mr. Bentley has claimed to talk to the apostle Paul, that is a source of concern. If he is not preaching the gospel in purity, that is even more of a concern.

I would like to discuss my questions and concerns with him before condemning him wholesale, however. Or at least make sure that the information I have is truly representative of his ministry. Some ministries are genuinly anointed by the Lord, but simply misguided, and they need some good teaching. Others are outright deceivers. The former will grow into more maturity over time, and we can affirm the part of their ministry that is blessed by the Lord and pray for them to make necessary corrections. The outright deceivers, however, are operating from an evil spirit, and we need to sound a clarion call.

As discerning as HEF was about some things (for which I am very thankful), he created his own problems by writing off some ministries wholesale for minor issues, thus isolating himself and keeping himself from receiving blessing and correction from others. We need to make sure that we don't make that same mistake.

Regarding the Copeland connection, I don't think that it is as strong as it might seem. Even Rodney H-B and the Toronto Vineyard leaders had concerns about Copeland/Hagin's theology, and the interpersonal connection was minimal. For that matter, HEF received his calling to preach faith through Ken Hagin's ministry, but that does not mean that he had the same spirit or theological problems.

I like Grady's article. He encourages his readers to exercise caution and discernment without making uninformed sweeping statments about what is going on. Many of us have been praying for a revival of the gift of healing for years, and we welcome any true move of the HS in that direction, even if it does not take the form that we expect. If the Lakeland thing is not it, then pray that the Lord will move elsewhere in order to demonstrate the genuine article.


Amazed smitten astonished stunned floored blown away astounded shocked flabbergasted surprised wonderfully devastated awed shattered overwhelmed incredulous speechless sense of wonder at the love of God.
Re: Lakeland Revival??? [message #2025 is a reply to message #2022 ] Thu, 05 June 2008 13:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mark L  is currently offline Mark L
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I think Gradys point was he would like to see charismatic leaders stand up and speak to issues like this. Publicly give advice and correction. The problem with that is you be perceived as being devisive and critical. It is much safer to just keep your head pulled in.
Generally the only only people who speak to issues like this are the non-charismatic heresy hunters. Some good info on their sites but
. . . the attitude!
Offhand (and I don't really follow this stuff) the only book I can think of in recent yrs offering correction is John Beveres
Thus Saith The Lord. Dealing with all the prophetic stuff and the problems associated with it.

http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Books/product?item_no =95759&netp_id=114613&event=ESRCN&item_code=WW&a mp;view=details
Re: Lakeland Revival??? [message #2027 is a reply to message #2023 ] Thu, 05 June 2008 21:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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Quote:

jisamazed wrote:I would like to discuss my questions and concerns with him before condemning him wholesale, however.


Hopefully you can also get a chance to discuss with the Antichrist his theology, and his soon-to-be-verifiable-head-wound-healing, (and don't forget the fire from heaven) before recognition comes that his powers stem from the other side.

Now we are only dealing with kid stuff--then it will be the kind of deception that *if possible* could deceive the very elect.

If for some reason you can't get an audience with him though, take a bit of advice and don't believe what you read in the paper... those guys never seem to get it right.

Quote:

jisamazed wrote:I am not concerned about the tattoos and such.


Tattoos??? Has anyone been able get a close up shot? Are they just the garden variety Harley Davidson tattoos? Let me know if any of them contain numbers... wow! that could be significant information!

William

[Updated on: Thu, 05 June 2008 21:06]


I want to believe!
Re: Lakeland Revival??? [message #2028 is a reply to message #2027 ] Thu, 05 June 2008 22:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jisamazed  is currently offline jisamazed
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Moulder said, "Hopefully you can also get a chance to discuss with the Antichrist his theology, and his soon-to-be-verifiable-head-wound-healing, (and don't forget the fire from heaven) before recognition comes that his powers stem from the other side.
Now we are only dealing with kid stuff--then it will be the kind of deception that *if possible* could deceive the very elect."

The reason why we will be able to discern and reject the Antichrist is because of his deceptive theology, among other things. It will be clear that he opposes Christ rather than glorifies Him, even if he says nice things about Him like Ghandi or Mick Jagger did (both men said favorable things about Jesus, but were/are clearly unsaved). It will be clear to us.

However, Todd Bentley's theology is not clear to me yet, and I want to know more about it. I don't want to learn about it from people who already hate him, because usually their information is inaccurate or slanted. I want to hear it from the horse's mouth. The reason that I don't accept the ministry of Ken Copland is because I have read stuff by him in which he adamantly preaches and defends heresy on two levels. I have not heard that from Todd Bentley yet, and I don't want to base my judgment on hearsay. I don't want people to write me off based on hearsay or twistings of my ideas, so I will not do so to him.

There are two extemes in discernment. One is to not recognize the error and evil, and thus get sucked into it. Being quick to accept everything. We all know how prevalent that problem is (and it has been that way since Adam and Eve). Nothing new there. But the other extreme is to not recognize legitimate ministries because of flaws that we see that could be corrected over time. Being quick to reject everything. Both extremes are an example of false discernment. We all have held to error at one time or another in our lives. HEF certainly did, and it would be easy to dismiss him wholesale, but scripture tells us to "hold fast to what is good, and abstain from every form of evil", which is what we are all trying to do, hopefully. If you look for problems in someone, you are sure to find them. If you look for truth in someone, you will hopefully find that, too. Our understanding of the truth grows over time as we study the Word and spend time in prayer and suffer for the Lord. We must examine and soften our own hearts before the Lord before we start checking out movements such as these. I know that if I don't do so I am more likely to make a wrong judgment and be guilty of hypocrisy.

To make a long story short, I am personally saying neither good or bad about the Lakeland Revival until I get more information. Some others of you seem to be more informed about what Todd is teaching and have already formed your analysis. I don't have the GodTV channel, and my internet is only dial-up, so I can't get streaming videos very well. If any of you have any primary material I can read or look at that will help us to understand the spirit behind this specific movement, please post it. Thank you.

Thanks, Moulder, for your helpful post on the relationship between a person's volition and the move of the Holy Spirit on him or her.

-Keep our hearts pure, Lord, and fulfill your promise to give us wisdom in this matter.


Amazed smitten astonished stunned floored blown away astounded shocked flabbergasted surprised wonderfully devastated awed shattered overwhelmed incredulous speechless sense of wonder at the love of God.
Re: Lakeland Revival??? [message #2034 is a reply to message #2028 ] Fri, 06 June 2008 12:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
grandom  is currently offline grandom
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Here is another interesting url.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Todd_Bentley

By the way he has pulled the testimony of talking to paul in his small cabin in heaven from his web site as well as reference to the angel emma. Guess she became an albatros to him.
Re: Lakeland Revival??? [message #2036 is a reply to message #2028 ] Fri, 06 June 2008 12:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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Haven't had a chance to look over your links yet but I did find one that is pretty interesting... there is commentary on the audio, but if you listen to the actual audio of this guy, there won't be much doubt about what's going on.


http://www.puritanfellowship.com/2008/06/todd-bentley-descri bes-how-hes.html


I want to believe!
Re: Lakeland Revival??? [message #2038 is a reply to message #2036 ] Fri, 06 June 2008 19:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mark L  is currently offline Mark L
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I haven't had time (and won't have time for a while) to look at any of the links so I will confine my remarks to what J said


jamamazed said

However, Todd Bentley's theology is not clear to me yet, and I want to know more about it. I don't want to learn about it from people who already hate him, because usually their information is inaccurate or slanted. I want to hear it from the horse's mouth. The reason that I don't accept the ministry of Ken Copland is because I have read stuff by him in which he adamantly preaches and defends heresy on two levels. I have not heard that from Todd Bentley yet, and I don't want to base my judgment on hearsay. I don't want people to write me off based on hearsay or twistings of my ideas, so I will not do so to him.

I would be very surprised if Bently or the airport church or any of the other individuals involved believed heresy like JDS.
I live very close to the Toronto airport church went on many occasions read their materials my parents were councilors there and a good friend was very involved. So I have a very good idea of what is involved there. I also did a careful study using their materials of exactly where the special annointing there came from. I mention them again because Bentley received his annointing there.
The whole problem here to me is the special annointing. I say that because I see it as out of the ordinary. All the other stuff to me is just the usual charismatic nonsense. Some of the Lord some flesh some manology some good doctrine some genuine healing some not.
Speaking for myself I take a long time to make up my mind about people and ministries. I think Todd and the airport leadership are all sincere ministers. Having said that I was not surprised to hear about angels named emma and visits to the apostle Paul etc. To me just business as usual. That is not a blanket critisim of the charismatic church in general either. I guess I'm just not surprised when I hear about stuff like this.
Again on a personal note. If I hadn't got the good grounding in the word I did I would probably have been involved. The Lord has done a lot of fixing in my life.
Something else I'm not sure if everyone knew or not but Paul Cain prophesised the revival in Toronto.


Re: Lakeland Revival??? [message #2041 is a reply to message #2038 ] Sat, 07 June 2008 11:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
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POSITIVE TESTIMONY!!! The brother in The Lord who first brought up to me about the Lakeland revival,(NOT), came to visit me yesterday and I was able to point him to The Word and show him what God says about false prophets, angels of light, endtime deceptions, and God's warnings to us. He was, by the grace of God, receptive and saw the truth and believed it. As we viewed the various sites (he doesn't have access to a computer) and watched Bentley going through his stories of kicking people in the head and his 14 ft. angel,ect. we would stop and look up in the Word scriptures showing that this was not God's annointing nor His way of ministering. I wanted him to see it for himself and make his own decision, not just believe me, but to base his conclusion on God's Word. So I rejoice in that at least 1 person is heeding the warnings. I'm praying there will be many more. Thank God for The Word and the teachings recieved throught Bro. Freeman, without which, I'd not have a clue as to what is of God and what's a deception... "Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour." 1 Peter 5:8

Hombre, you must be slipping, almost an hour??? Laughing

[Updated on: Sat, 07 June 2008 11:17]


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: Lakeland Revival??? [message #2043 is a reply to message #2028 ] Sat, 07 June 2008 23:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jisamazed  is currently offline jisamazed
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Hombre wrote on Fri, 06 June 2008 08:04

jisamazed wrote on Thu, 05 June 2008 22:59

There are two extemes in discernment. One is to not recognize the error and evil, and thus get sucked into it. Being quick to accept everything. We all know how prevalent that problem is (and it has been that way since Adam and Eve). Nothing new there. But the other extreme is to not recognize legitimate ministries because of flaws that we see that could be corrected over time. Being quick to reject everything. Both extremes are an example of false discernment.


Sorry, Jiz, but you're already deceived.


About what? Please be clear, without any of your epithets or twisting my words. What do you believe that I am deceived about?

To think that one should even consider sitting under a ministry which one recognizes to be steeped in error, with the thought that 'it could be worked out over time' is absurd...especially with regards to occultism.

[COLOR=blue]First of all, I never said that I was "considering sitting under his ministry." What's wrong with you? You have this habit of reading some sort of hidden meaning into everything I say, which makes me question the things you say about other people. I simply acknowledge that some people need to be explained the way of Jesus more completely, like Apollos. Todd Bentley is still young and green and might be open to correction if indeed he is simply misguided. However, if he is under the influence of a Hindu demon then that is a different story altogether. I have nothing to do with deceivers. My point with that post is simply that I am taking the time to figure out which one he is, the misguided or the deceiver. If you are right about the whole Lakeland thing, it should be clear. The links that you and others provided are helpful.

I would also venture that an evil spirit drove HEF to imbalance later in his life. Did you discern that?

Your preoccupation with forgiveness, love and sentimentality is getting in the way of being able to discern right from wrong....and sorry to say it fella, but 'one of the definers of 'love' according to 1 Cor. 13, is that it 'rejoices in THE TRUTH', not in iniquity'.

Homey, I'm not sure why you believe that I'm preoccupied with "forgiveness, love and sentimentality." You seem to think that because I'm not hotheaded that I'm on the love boat. You have no idea what I go through when I stand up for the truth and holiness at work, church and home. I actually catch a lot of grief for some things, but I am trying to be steadfast with God's word. Doing so can be a lonely calling for all of us sometimes. You seem to think that if someone is not obnoxious about "the system" or takes time to consider the facts before making judgment, that person must be on the "love boat". Anyone who knows me would never think of associating me with that way of thinking. Yes, love rejoices in the truth. It also does not speak evil of one's brother in Christ. It hopes all things, and it is not so quick to believe an evil report. Mercy and truth have kissed each other.

Define 'legitimate'. In this case, legitimate simply means "genuine". We are inquiring as to whether or not any given ministry is one that the Lord is genuinely working through.

...according to my Bible, the ministry of Jesus was not considered 'legitimate' by the religious leaders of His day, and by the same token, theirs were.....the difference between Jesus' ministry and this guys' is that Jesus spoke according to the established Word of God, and His miracles were a verification of that fact. This guy has miracles but embraces occultism. It doesn't take a genius to put 2+2 together and come up with the fact that this guy is not getting his power from God.[/quote]


Hombre, if he indeed embraces occultism, then of course we should not receive it, but rather warn people about it. I have friends and family who are into the Lakeland thing and if I am going to warn them that it is false then I had jolly well better know what I am talking about. The Bible teaches us to study a matter out and take time before answering, to contemplate our answer.

By the way, I have nothing to do with the Toronto Airport thing. I've had a check about it from the beginning, and since then became convinced that the Lord does not want me involved in it. I'm not into charismatic fads, if that's what you're concerned about. There were fads in the "faith camp" in the 80's, I remember. For a while in the mid-eighties, everyone was going through deliverance, and it went way overboard. Then the Lord brought some messages about being broken before Him because He wanted to break us of the elitist pride. However, it became this weird fad that involved fake crying and the like, and people missed the point of what the Lord was doing. Then there was the "return back to HEF's message" fad, and things went downhill from there and never recovered. Other charismatic (and noncharismatic) groups are vulnerable to the same fad mentality.

I have e-mailed Todd Bentley's ministry, and I will keep you guys posted on how they answer my question. I worded it specifically so they can't dance around it.



Amazed smitten astonished stunned floored blown away astounded shocked flabbergasted surprised wonderfully devastated awed shattered overwhelmed incredulous speechless sense of wonder at the love of God.
Re: Lakeland Revival??? [message #2044 is a reply to message #2034 ] Sun, 08 June 2008 01:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jisamazed  is currently offline jisamazed
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I have just finished researching some of the material that you guys have discussed. I looked at most of the links. There is convincing primary evidence that Todd is operating by an evil spirit or spirits. I will gather some of the evidence and present it to the elders at my church. There is a little more work to do on it. Thanks for your help. This kind of discussion is one helpful use of this forum.

I like to work at my own pace and do so methodically, so if you are wondering why it took me so long, frankly I think that it is great that you knew all that you needed to know right away, but I like to take my time. I don't see any premium in scripture on being in a hurry.

I will put my conclusions on a post once I get a chance.

Pray that the evil spirit at work in this Lakeland thing will be exposed so that God's people will not be bound by it.


Amazed smitten astonished stunned floored blown away astounded shocked flabbergasted surprised wonderfully devastated awed shattered overwhelmed incredulous speechless sense of wonder at the love of God.
Re: Lakeland Revival??? [message #2045 is a reply to message #2028 ] Sun, 08 June 2008 11:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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jisamazed wrote on Thu, 05 June 2008 22:59

Moulder said, "Hopefully you can also get a chance to discuss with the Antichrist his theology, and his soon-to-be-verifiable-head-wound-healing, (and don't forget the fire from heaven) before recognition comes that his powers stem from the other side.
Now we are only dealing with kid stuff--then it will be the kind of deception that *if possible* could deceive the very elect."
Quote:

jaisamazed said:
The reason why we will be able to discern and reject the Antichrist is because of his deceptive theology, among other things. It will be clear that he opposes Christ rather than glorifies Him, even if he says nice things about Him like Ghandi or Mick Jagger did (both men said favorable things about Jesus, but were/are clearly unsaved). It will be clear to us.

However, Todd Bentley's theology is not clear to me yet, and I want to know more about it. I don't want to learn about it from people who already hate him, because usually their information is inaccurate or slanted. I want to hear it from the horse's mouth...




I disagree. Deception by its very nature is not so easy to spot. Jesus says that the deception will be so pervasive that the very elect would be subject to it. He adds "if it were possible" not to assure the disciples so that they could take a cavalier attitude, but so that they could see just how serious it will be. His whole discourse is designed to warn his followers that these times will be perilous . He tells us to be on guard (take heed) because there is a pretty good chance of falling for the deception.

I see your note where you have concluded that it is indeed demonically inspired, but do you realize how many thousands have already been sucked into the experience? The focal point of the "revival" is *impartation*. There is such an emphasis on impartation that an attempt is made to lay hands on every one who attends the meetings. The stated goal is to have those who receive the impartation take that same spirit back to their home church and see its influence sweep the nation (and world).

Now it not like we haven't been prepared for this stuff by observing earlier "outpourings", (e.g. Toronto, Brownsville, etc.) ...so we have been warned.

Each of these "revivals" has had the same characteristic manifestations... how much clearer does it get?

I understand that none of us are exempt from falling for some of this stuff, especially given our desire to see God move, but at some point someone in the charismatic movement needs to step up to the plate and call darkness for what it is and not hide behind some wish that God may be moving there as well. Face it, when people start crowing like roosters and roaring like lions, someone needs to take a step back and call a spade a spade. There is nothing to be gained by a tepid reticence because of the fear of blasphemy, or because someone close to us claims to have been touched by God. When Eve was informed that she wasn’t to eat the fruit, no amount of feeling, or desire, should have hindered her using her brain.

We need to use our brains (assuming we are in Christ) and we will glorify the God that gave them to us.


Blessings,
William

[Updated on: Sun, 08 June 2008 11:28]


I want to believe!
Re: Lakeland Revival??? [message #2046 is a reply to message #2038 ] Sun, 08 June 2008 11:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
grandom  is currently offline grandom
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Hardbones wrote on Fri, 06 June 2008 19:34

I haven't had time (and won't have time for a while) to look at any of the links so I will confine my remarks to what J said


jamamazed said

However, Todd Bentley's theology is not clear to me yet, and I want to know more about it. I don't want to learn about it from people who already hate him, because usually their information is inaccurate or slanted. I want to hear it from the horse's mouth. The reason that I don't accept the ministry of Ken Copland is because I have read stuff by him in which he adamantly preaches and defends heresy on two levels. I have not heard that from Todd Bentley yet, and I don't want to base my judgment on hearsay. I don't want people to write me off based on hearsay or twistings of my ideas, so I will not do so to him.

I would be very surprised if Bently or the airport church or any of the other individuals involved believed heresy like JDS.
I live very close to the Toronto airport church went on many occasions read their materials my parents were councilors there and a good friend was very involved. So I have a very good idea of what is involved there. I also did a careful study using their materials of exactly where the special annointing there came from. I mention them again because Bentley received his annointing there.
The whole problem here to me is the special annointing. I say that because I see it as out of the ordinary. All the other stuff to me is just the usual charismatic nonsense. Some of the Lord some flesh some manology some good doctrine some genuine healing some not.
Speaking for myself I take a long time to make up my mind about people and ministries. I think Todd and the airport leadership are all sincere ministers. Having said that I was not surprised to hear about angels named emma and visits to the apostle Paul etc. To me just business as usual. That is not a blanket critisim of the charismatic church in general either. I guess I'm just not surprised when I hear about stuff like this.
Again on a personal note. If I hadn't got the good grounding in the word I did I would probably have been involved. The Lord has done a lot of fixing in my life.
Something else I'm not sure if everyone knew or not but Paul Cain prophesised the revival in Toronto.




Re: Lakeland Revival??? [message #2047 is a reply to message #2046 ] Sun, 08 June 2008 13:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
grandom  is currently offline grandom
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Oops! forgot to add my comments.

Hardbones said that he thought Bently and other ministers are sincere. I dont doubt that a bit. However as Dr Freeman used to say they are sincerely deceived. The devil is sincere. He sincerely wants us in hell with him. Antichrist is sincere for the same or even more diabolical reasons. His name tells all we need to know.

Moulder I agree entirely with your statement that the very elect could be deceived if it were possible. What about those not elect. Sounds to me like they would be the first deceived. Ah signs and wonders. Jesus said an adulterous generation seeks after them. Wonder. Does that describe or present day or am I being to quick to judge?
Re: Lakeland Revival??? [message #2049 is a reply to message #2044 ] Mon, 09 June 2008 10:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
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Couldn't resist it could ya? Razz

Yep! GOLD DUST!!! falling from where exactly??? Inside the buildings they're meeting in? The sky? Heaven?
No wonder he's saying "come get you some", of course they've stopped taking up an offering, what with all that gold
around...Hey it's even showing up in their teeth. Rolling Eyes

No correction needed, yep,according to my bible, Jesus did "teach" before the miracle of the fishes and loaves...

Hopefully, your friends will see the truth and be set free from this deception..."He that hath an ear..."

WE CAN share the truth, in love, to set this groaning creation free, one person at a time. Not of ourselves, but by the power of the BLOOD of JESUS and THE WORD of GOD. Allow God to lift the standard, His spoken WORD.

..."When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of The Lord shall lift up a standard against him." Isaiah 59:19


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: Lakeland Revival??? [message #2054 is a reply to message #2049 ] Mon, 09 June 2008 20:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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Well I wasn't into the magic carpet ride but I certainly can see the 'looking for adventure' as an apt characteristic of the whole movement. Also the 'exploding into space' line pretty much fits into his spaceship routine.

But you guys are focusing way too much on petty stuff... have you forgotten the tattoos?????

Sincerely,
Mr. Sans Tattoo

[Updated on: Mon, 09 June 2008 20:46]


I want to believe!
Re: Lakeland Revival??? [message #2055 is a reply to message #2054 ] Mon, 09 June 2008 21:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JWBTI  is currently offline JWBTI
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Moulder wrote:
I see your note where you have concluded that it is indeed demonically inspired, but do you realize how many thousands have already been sucked into the experience? The focal point of the "revival" is *impartation*. There is such an emphasis on impartation that an attempt is made to lay hands on every one who attends the meetings. The stated goal is to have those who receive the impartation take that same spirit back to their home church and see its influence sweep the nation (and world).
************************************************************ **************************
This is so true ! A few weeks ago, I spoke with a woman that attends The Harvest Church, in Angola, In.
Some of the church members had gone to Lakeland......and had returned back to Indiana with the deceiving
spirits in hand.
This woman was in worship service......No preaching...No Word....just bathing in the Lord....She had asked the Lord
for healing for gum disease .....What did she get ?..... A Gold cap on a good tooth ?!!!!! Her denist said it was
real Gold too ! Wonder why she got a counterfit.....(I know why) If you ask for bread, will God send you a stone,
or Gold ? Nope ! I just wonder.....if a person would ask for salvation would God send them a car ? I think not!

2 Thess 2:9-12 tells the truth of the matter of what is going on..........they would not Believe the Truth......so God sent
them a Strong Delusion.........The Vineyard System has never Believed the truth from day one ! They turned God into
a lustful, fleshly ,earthly creature as like they are ..........
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

Thanks to all that have given input on this subject !


Ron
Re: Lakeland Revival??? [message #2057 is a reply to message #2054 ] Tue, 10 June 2008 11:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
grandom  is currently offline grandom
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In regards to the Lakeland Fla. Deception. Is`nt strange we have`nt heard from the people that have posted quite consistently about Dr. Freeman being deceived.Can we give them the benefit of the doubt in that they have`nt heard of it before, or is it that they see no deception here? If HEF was deceived, please give me more of that deception. Had it not been for him where would our discernment be or would we have any? I will never regret the opportunity I had to sit under his teaching or for the knowledge that I obtained. God has been faith full.

Not discounting the thousands that are being deceived down there I have to wonder about the millions that are deceived in the denominational system that are literally going to hell with the hersies taught there ie. Baptism saves, the literal eating and drinking of the Lords body and blood, or that man can forgive us our sins just to name a couple. Hombre you are so right in the admonitions and dissertations on the "demon" I`am sorry the denominational system. Should we not be equally concerned about these citations. I know a lot of us are but I have to wonder how many in these citations fall under 2thess2 admonitions about same. Ultimately we all have to answer individually for what we have done and for what we believe.What did we do with His word. Did we study it and obey or did we let man tickle our ears and show us a broad way. Just wondering.
Re: Lakeland Revival??? [message #2059 is a reply to message #2057 ] Tue, 10 June 2008 12:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
grandom  is currently offline grandom
Messages: 404
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Like Hombre I have to reply to my own post.

I have got to start using spell check. Situations not citations. Sorry about that.

Another interesting, at least to me. When Moses received the tem commandments and came down off the mount the people had melted their gold and made idols to worship. What is satans fascination with gold?
Just wondering
Re: Lakeland Revival??? [message #2061 is a reply to message #2059 ] Wed, 11 June 2008 16:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
Messages: 1934
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Location: Birmingham, AL
Senior Member
I found this site today, the pastor/teacher is named Scott Johnson and he is located in Ft. Myers, Fl.(south of Lakeland).
I'm not endorsing his theology,(I know nothing about him) just thought this was a good summation of Todd Bentley and the Lakeland deception. If you hear anything unscriptual or just an opinion, disreguard it. It's a little over an hour, but it'll save a lot of time site jumping...
He really dislikes tattoos and Harleys, but otherwise, solid.
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=51808224915


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: Lakeland Revival??? [message #2065 is a reply to message #2061 ] Thu, 12 June 2008 09:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
Messages: 1934
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL
Senior Member
Yep, I thought the second half was "rubber meeting the road".

I haven't had a chance to hear the 2nd sermon yet, maybe later today...

Don't forget you're conversing with a "GUY FROM ALABAMA"... Laughing

Please press 1 for ENGLISH..."No hablar espanol, si, Hombre?" Smile


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: Lakeland Revival??? [message #2068 is a reply to message #2065 ] Thu, 12 June 2008 11:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
Messages: 1934
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL
Senior Member
Sorry Bro, I'm afraid you're going to be waiting for a while...

Ain't no scriptures to back this up.

"For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming
themselves into the apostles of Christ."
"And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel
of light."
"Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed
as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall
be according to their works." II Corth.11:13-15

Thank you JESUS for the Spirit of truth, for we Know it's
THE HOLY SPIRIT that gives us discernment to keep us from
deceptions and errors, and it's THE WORD placed within us
that is that standard and light, showing us the way of righteousness.

"Howbeit when He, the Spirit of truth is come, he will guide
you into all truth:" John 16:13


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: Lakeland Revival??? [message #2070 is a reply to message #2068 ] Thu, 12 June 2008 14:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mark L  is currently offline Mark L
Messages: 441
Registered: October 2006
Location: Canada
Senior Member
Some very interesting stuff there. I still haven't had time to look at much of the links although I looked at a bit. I noticed on one of the comments 'sanctified imagination" & visulization (sp?) goes along with that. I'm assuming that the facts there are correct and Bently is involved in that stuff as well. I wanted to add that this ministry

http://www.cwgministries.org/index.htm

was very heavily involved at the T.O. Airport church along with Todd Bently. They believe and teach and taught openly there all the new age practices regarding visulization and all the other stuff. Virklers believe the new age people took all their practices from the bible. In other words they stealed it from us. That's how they phrase it. God gave us as xians visulization and all the other new age practices and the world (new age) took it from us and made it theirs. God is now giving it back to us through ministries like Virklers.
Re: Lakeland Revival??? [message #2077 is a reply to message #2070 ] Thu, 12 June 2008 22:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
Messages: 1934
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL
Senior Member
I just finished Scott Johnson's 2nd & 3rd sermon/teaching on the Lakeland Deception. He has thoroughly covered Todd Bentley's
errors and deceptions(actually, Satan's errors and deceptions). I know several people I'd like to see listen to the whole 3 part teaching,
but they probably never will. I really don't see where anyone on this forum would need to hear this unless they're on the fence.
I believe those of us who have been researching and keeping an eye on this, are convinced and settled on this being a move of the devil.
I'm starting to feel like we're beating a dead horse, seems like we're all on the same page on this...Hopefully, we now have the
bibical answers and responses(and a understanding of what's going on there) to help them if and when we encounter someone who is being deceived
by Todd Bentley and the Lakeland Deception.

I know I've had at times, a flippant additude and sometimes maybe too light in my style of humor, and if I've in anyway turned anyone away
from viewing or discussing this VERY SERIOUS DECEPTION, I'm sorry... Sad That's just me, it's how I make my point sometimes...It's just how I roll...
But remember we're in a WAR...And our weapons are not carnal, but mighty through God...

"Finally, my brethren, be strong in The Lord, and in the power of His might."

"Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil."

"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers,
against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."

"Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand."

"Above all, taking the shield of FAITH, wherewith ye SHALL BE ABLE to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked."
Ephesians 6:10-13,& 16

"And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death." Rev.12:11


[Updated on: Thu, 12 June 2008 22:11]


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: Lakeland Revival??? [message #2079 is a reply to message #2077 ] Fri, 13 June 2008 09:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
grandom  is currently offline grandom
Messages: 404
Registered: October 2007
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Hombre

You mentioned once about wanting to see close ups of Bentleys tatts. Here is a site I found that has a couple that are quite interesting, only from the aspect of further reveling who and what he is.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/2951193/Jesus-Death-Mask-Todd-Bent ley-Witchcraft
Re: Lakeland Revival??? [message #2080 is a reply to message #2077 ] Fri, 13 June 2008 09:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
Messages: 1934
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL
Senior Member
Hombre,(or anyone wanting to listen)

To listen to parts 2&3 of Scott Johnson's teaching on Lakeland Revival/Todd Bentley Deception; Go to,
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=51808224915 and page down to,"other sermon Info" under
"some sermons preached around the same date", click on Lakeland Revival/Todd Bentley pt.2 and below it pt.3
(it's located about 1/2 way down the page)

Point made concerning medical science healing verse FAITH in Jesus healing...once more, yo right! Surprised
( not that I disagreed with you, I've believed that for 27 yrs.)maybe some of "our balanced lives" just might be
"compromised lives". But that's another issue to be dealt with at another time, besides, until I move out of my "glass house",
I don't think I'll throw any stones around.

Don't worry, I done been through too much to "go and freak out on ya"... Smile I was just wondering last night
about some of our fellow members who seem to have disapeared during our postings on Lakeland/Todd Bentley.
I have noticed none of the "sisters, ladies, women" have joined in the discussions concerning Bentley??? Sup wit da?
So I was examining possible reasons; gone on vacation? Have a different opinion about this "move of God"? Offended by the way
some of us come across in our expression of our views and convictions? Think we're being mean to Todd? Computer died?
I just don't want to be a stumbling block to anyone...Guess nuff said...


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: Lakeland Revival??? [message #2083 is a reply to message #2079 ] Fri, 13 June 2008 10:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
grandom  is currently offline grandom
Messages: 404
Registered: October 2007
Senior Member
Yo da man Hombre. Thats why I keep checking your responses because you obviously are well informed and just a brilliant orator.
I learn from you on every post you make. Now send me the 5 bucks.
Re: Lakeland Revival??? [message #2086 is a reply to message #2083 ] Fri, 13 June 2008 14:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mark L  is currently offline Mark L
Messages: 441
Registered: October 2006
Location: Canada
Senior Member
Seeing people flock to these kind of meetings really reminds me of Amos 8/11

Behold the days are coming saith the Lord
That I will send a famine on the Land
Not a famine of bread
Nor a thirst for water
but of hearing the words of the Lord
They shall wander from sea to sea
and from north to east
They shall run to and fro seeking the word of the Lord
But shall not find it.

I realize this thread is not about the T.O. airport church but Bentley and the airport are just so connected that I can't help commenting on it from that perspective

People today are just so hungry for God that they will set aside all their inhibitions and just go because they heard God is there. I know of people who grew up in the Xian church. Conservative people not given to emotional flights of fancy & weird supernatural experience. Who in any other circumstance of life would think tattoos and piercing are for bikers and weirdos. Yet they flock to these kinds of meetings setting aside all their inhibitions and beliefs because they heard God is there. Just desperate for God.

I like to read hunting stories and remember reading one that really applies to the church today. A mother rhino got her leg caught in a cable snare attached to a log. She could still walk about. She just dragged the log with her. The predictable thing happened and the log got caught in the trees and she couldn't move very far. Baby rhino stayed with his mother because it was safe there. Eventually he got so thirsty he made a break for the water hole a hundred yards away. The pack of Hyenas waiting for him got him then. Not a nice story but its true and it happens every day in Africa.

That is exactly what is going on today in modern xianity. The St Louis Vineyard pastor who brought the anointing to Toronto received it at Ken Hagins meetings from Howard Browne. He didn't want to go to the meetings because of Hagins belief in JDS but went anyway because he was just so dry and hungry and he heard God was there doing a new thing.

Another case involved a former member of one of Steve Hills meetings. He had left the faith message and eventually got so hungry and dry and heard about the Toronto anointing he sent me a note asking about it.

People today are just so thirsty and hungry for God they will eventually throw caution to the winds suspend all critical thinking processes and just go. How very tragic! In direct fulfillment of bible prophecy too.

I saw on many occasions 100's & 100's of people at a time at the airport church lined up for prayer falling down under the same anointing as at Lakeland. Flocking from all over the world because they were so hungry for God.
There is a direct line between Ken Copeland hands and Lakeland/Toronto/Brownsville/Brompton England/St. Louis and all the other places this anointing has gone. Paul Cain prophesied the anointing coming to Toronto and England. Guess what? It came to pass! Just like he said. Hmmm.


This is far more serious than just a false anointing. Something very serious has been loosed into the charismatic & Xian church. When all this starting happening in the mid nineties I went on many occasions and did my research and eventually came to the conclusion it wasn't of the Lord. The Lord would not allow me do anything other than share some with those close to me. The Lord showed me that the decision to allow this to happen to the church was made by a much higher level of authority than I had.

I'm going to say it again. This is far more serious than just a false anointing. Something very serious has been loosed into the charismatic & Xian church. Through the hands of a false prophet. I could make it stronger than that but . . .

This is not just a false anointing come upon a foolish preacher to hungry na´ve xians. It is very endtimeish very serious and we haven’t yet seen what it is!!!

[Updated on: Fri, 13 June 2008 14:38]

Re: Lakeland Revival??? [message #2088 is a reply to message #2083 ] Fri, 13 June 2008 15:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
Messages: 1934
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL
Senior Member
I believe that some are putting too much emphasis on the tattoos. I personally don't have near the problem with the tattoos
as I do with the source of his annointing. My focus from the start has been the bizarre statements;unscriptural method of ministering;
the deception that's being believed by "the charsmatic church"; and these "prophets" and "angels" who passed this on to him.
My desire is to expose this as what really is, a deception from the pit of hell sent forth to lead astray as many souls as possible.
If anything concerned me from listening to Scott Johnson, it was an over emphasis on Bentley's appearance. I'm in total agreement with
Hombre concerning being careful not add to the truth in an honest effort to persuade others to see our side of this.
There's plently of scriptures to refute these deceptions without us having to "help" God, His Word is LIGHT, and if we'll shine it forth,
it'll dispel the darkness...

NO!!! I don't have any tattoos...or piercings... Shocked


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: Lakeland Revival??? [message #2091 is a reply to message #2086 ] Fri, 13 June 2008 17:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mark L  is currently offline Mark L
Messages: 441
Registered: October 2006
Location: Canada
Senior Member
I'd just like to be clear here that I was just giving my 2 cents about the topic. I have no problem with others using humor to illustrate spiritual truth. Personally I will leave it's use to those who have mastered it. Laughing

Tattoos to me (to say the least) are a real lack of wisdom.

My point was that there is more going on here than a false anointing. The point being that I think something endtime was loosed into the charismatic church through the laying on of Copelands hands. I think (as HEF did) that he is more than just a minister who has gotten off into serious error. I hope I didn't come across as critical or censuring.
Re: Lakeland Revival??? [message #2093 is a reply to message #2091 ] Fri, 13 June 2008 19:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JWBTI  is currently offline JWBTI
Messages: 289
Registered: March 2007
Location: Ohio
Senior Member
It is interesting that most of the people involved in Kansas City,Toronto, Brownsville an now Lakeland all
consider this part of the Third Wave movement of the spirit.

1. Azusa Street
2. Charismatic out pouring of the 1970's

Now !

3. The Third Wave movement

The Third wave being brought forth via:
John Wimber, Bob Jones, Paul Cain, Mike Bickel,Todd Bently an all that are under submission to there authority.
Steve Hill (aka, SJ Hill) brought Paul Cain to Faith Assembly.....SJ Hill taught at Brownsville.
I wonder if Sj Hill was introduced to Emma also, via Paul Cain ?

It is time to wake up from our slumber An Rebuke this Wave, an calm this sea of unbelief an error !

How are we to do this ?

2Tim 4:1-5, 1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus
Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his
appearing and his kingdom;
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season;
reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and
doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound
doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to
themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and
shall be turned unto fables.
5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the
work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.


Ron
Re: Lakeland Revival??? [message #2095 is a reply to message #2080 ] Sat, 14 June 2008 20:10 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
jisamazed  is currently offline jisamazed
Messages: 170
Registered: January 2008
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Senior Member
....for whatever reason, it seems as though many are either afraid to post, or perhaps don't have the time.

For those who are afraid, it could be any number of reasons, from possessing poor technical writing skills to the fear of being attacked and not wanting to get involved in a confrontation, or even fearing a more severe judgement of God for expressing their opinions...and so it could be 'safer' to hunker down and just watch.

For those who don't have the time, well they just don't have the time....but I would have to say that writing ones' opinions out is a great way to not only express yourself, but to find out exactly who YOU are, what YOU believe and get some feedback from others who share our experience and belief system.

I agree, Hombre. I think we would get a lot more contributors to this forum if there was less name-calling and assumptions. I am sure that a lot of other people don't want to contribute because they were beaten down over and over again in their faith camp days, and sometimes the posts here look like more of the same. Why would they want to go through that again? As for me, I'm certainly not afraid of criticism, but frankly, as much as I sometimes enjoy this web site, it is far from a top priority. I tend to have more time on weekends or occasionally on lunch break. If a person really wants to learn about overcomers and even write a few to encourage them, try www.persecution.com. The saints mentioned on that site put us all to shame with their faithfulness and make these self-righteous conversations about medical science and denominations seem shallow. "They overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives unto death." That's a real overcomer.

Regarding the Lakeland thing and Todd, I am still in the process of writing out a document with my concerns that I will be presenting at the elders' meeting of my church. I have some more research to do, and I am drawing most of my material straight from his website and DVD's of the meetings down there. I don't trust the material on web sites that try to "expose" him because of some of the reasons Hombre expressed. My preliminary thoughts include the following:

1. Todd's formal theology as expressed in his "Statement of Faith" is sound. The only question mark is point 12 about ongoing revelation, and that could be significant in light of the "revelations" that he reports.

However, his informal theology as expressed in his teaching smacks of "strange teachings" that Hebrews 13:9 warns us about. For example, he stated in one of his recent messages on his web site, "...there are times when the presence of God will fill my room, and I can tell you which Person is waiting for me at that moment. Yes, it’s God and it’s the presence of God, but there’s always one personality that’s exemplified. In other words, I’ve come to know which one is pressing Himself out of the presence to me. I’ve come to the place where I can discern the personalities of the Godhead—if it’s the Father, Jesus, or the Holy Spirit—just like I know the distinct personalities of each of my three children."

It's not good theology to divide the trinity like that, and it is only one example of many such questionable theological statements that he has made.

2. He makes a lot of references to angelic visitations. We all know that angels can appear to people, and a few people have seen the Lord Jesus Himself, but there is always a holy fear and "astonishment" (Daniel) that accompanies such experiences. Todd is far too cool in his demeanor when he experiences these visitations. There is no evidence that he tested these spirits, even though scripture clearly tells us to do so. Angelic visitations are not supposed to bring new teaching or theology.

3. The fact that he is teaching extensively, in spite of the fact that he is not a teacher, indicates a vulnerability to strange doctrines. That was Ken Hagin's mistake. Hagin once said that the Lord told him to stop teaching so much because that was not his calling. However, he continued to teach, and developed severe theological problems.

4. There is a dangerous misunderstanding about the gifts of the spirit. God has given different charisma to different people, and there is no single gift that is given to every believer. To tell believers that God wants them to develop their seer gift is a good way to open the door to familiar spirits. Also, when he was still a young believer, he had an experience at Subway in which he apparently had a prophetic word of knowledge for someone, and other kids started saying, "Do me!", as if he was a fortune teller in a tent at the fair. God's intent for giving someone that gift is not to "do" anyone.

5. Todd teaches repentence and holiness OK. Some of his material on the topic could have come from the likes of Leonard Ravenhill, Tozer or David Wilkerson. He could talk more about how repentence translates into a change of behavior. However, he seems to miss the important place of suffering and trials in the sanctification process. Most popular charismatic teachers simply do not seem to understand suffering very well, probably due to the widespread influence of the Word of Faith ideas. I have met a number of disillusioned Christians who were never taught how to make sense of their suffering, but rather had the "good God, bad devil" mentality to everything that came their way. These faith people could not understand why the Lord did not do everything that they expected Him to do. Some of Tood's teaching could breed the same mindset.

6. "Portal to heaven" is a New Age term that is unbiblical. We are always able to enter the presence of God by the blood of Jesus. We live our lives corum deo, before the face of God. We need no "portal".

The web sites that you guys have found have been helpful, especially regarding the tattoo of the rose and skull (a satanic symbol) and that warrior guy, but such sites can get their information wrong, and any visible ministry, whether genuine or false, is going to have some people opposing it.

Do think that it is possible for such a "revival" to be a mixed bag? Azusa Street was definitely of God, but some people reported that there were a lot of "fakirs and charlatons" there as well. I've no doubt that the Lord is not behind the false teaching coming from Lakeland, but does that mean that everyone who attends is deceived?

I'm familiar with another charismatic teacher that had good theology, but several times he made the statement, "There is nothing in scripture that says that we are justified by the blood. We are only justified by the resurrection." Should I write that teacher off just because of that errant statement? Should I give him some room to grow and receive correction?


Amazed smitten astonished stunned floored blown away astounded shocked flabbergasted surprised wonderfully devastated awed shattered overwhelmed incredulous speechless sense of wonder at the love of God.
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