Home » Discussion Area » Introductions & General » Faith Assembly, then and now... an update
| Re: Faith Assembly, then and now... an update [message #1853 is a reply to message #1849] |
Sat, 10 May 2008 17:31   |
 JWBTI
Messages: 253
Registered: March 2007
Location: Ohio |
Senior Member |
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Hombre wrote:
Uh-oh.......the gun is aimed at me......
....of course I could read this in 2 different ways.
1. A sarcastic challenge.
2. A legitimate request.
First things first then.
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Hombre, It was A LEGITIMATE request .
Not a sarcastic challenge.
I'll put the guns down for now.
Thank you Brother
Ron
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| Re: Faith Assembly, then and now... an update [message #1858 is a reply to message #1849] |
Tue, 13 May 2008 18:43 |
capturedbygrace
Messages: 41
Registered: April 2008
Location: Indianapolis, IN |
Member |
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JWBTI wrote on Sat, 10 May 2008 05:33: ...being some of them really do want to draw closer to God and do it His way.
Hombre wrote in reply: Yes, unfortunately for 'them', 'they' are being taught by people who purposefully or ignorantly distort/hide/omit obvious scriptural truths....
Time to throw my two cents in--I agree that some want to draw closer to God, but the system keeps them ignorant. My pastor is a second-generation Assembly of God pastor. All he's ever known is pastoring the system's way. The system kept him ignorant, and he just did what he learned, passing it on till God started revealing Himself... . He says the questions he's asking God (and his people) now are nothing he learned in seminary training.
Now the heritage of Assembly of God is tongue-talking, believe God heals today, and a few more things. But I can know and do those things and still have no results (and if I'm not seeking God about it, isn't that another way of having the form but denying the power?). In fact, I think it is even more deceptive to know about it and, as Hombre I believe says somewhere make God like our experience. Or else, we can become prideful that we know and act, and say, "it must just not be time," or "I'm ready God when You are...," but not really seek to grow. Oh, there are just so many ways to get around God's claims on us as His people... .
But the catch is I don't know anybody if they are utterly honest who hasn't been tempted with this (sitting down on God) in some form or other. So how do we avoid it? (The following ideas aren't necessarily in order...) #1- We fellowship with like-minded believers by being (for example) on this forum and using it the way it was intended. As Hombre said, The entire purpose of this forum is to allow us (former FAers') to begin to separate what IS Biblical truth from what was merely personal opinion and/or legalism, and to once again grow and stretch toward the high calling that we have. If we will involve ourselves with a right attitude, we can learn from one another and prayerfully take the things we hear to God (thank you so very much for providing this place, by the way--and for investing yourselves in it!)
#2- We can keep reading the Word, praying and seeking God. Again, as Hombre says: Whether...we (any of us) have these supernatural manifestations working in our lives is really beside the point ...what is important to me however, is that we don't DENY the fact that they ARE written.
We can't make anything happen, but we can honor our God by continuing to sit at His feet. We can ask all sorts of questions if we have the right attitude, which is that of a learner. Again, Hombre said, What else is important, as I reiterate, is that we attempt to find out WHY, instead of dismissing certain scriptures because they are difficult.
#3- One more thing I can do is refuse (and that takes prayerful work at times!) to criticize the system and the people in it. Now before I lose you, I want to say why. If I criticize, I have placed myself above them (pride), and I have not made it easy for someone to come and pick my brain. Also, if I criticize, I am possibly talking against brothers and sisters, judging their spirituality...and grieving the Holy Spirit.
I don't mean I can't say anything...if I don't criticize, and if I seek God, I think He will be able to use me much more to "plunder the system." Which is more important? My feeling good letting off steam about the system, no matter how true, or my seeking God's words and His heart so that anything I say comes out under the anointing with His power--power to deliver the smoking flax and bruised reed (not stomp it in my pride), and yes, in God's time and way power to "slash and burn" to set people free? If God doesn't separate me from my flesh here first though, I could end up being ineffectual because I'm without the anointing, or I could end up like Moses when he smote the rock the second time when he was to speak to it (since it was a type of Christ who was only struck once)...the people in that instance still got what they needed, but because Moses was speaking out of his own heart ("righteous?" indignation towards the people, fighting God's battle with the people in the flesh?)--and didn't obey and honor and glorify God, he didn't get to partake, but could only see the land from afar.
I truly don't want that. I don't want weak Christians caught in the enemy's snare in the system to be stumbled by me--and I want what I say about the system to be what He wants said, when and where and how He wants it said. My wrath over the situation does not work God's righteousness.
The best thing that happened to me, brothers and sisters, was for God to put me in my church 6 3/4 years ago, give me a vision for what potential it had in God (there have been exceptional things here from the beginning...), and permission to tell one person. Then He told me to "sit down and be quiet"--for 4 or so years!!! Then He gave me the job of being prayer warrior for the pastor and the church, and to still keep quiet unless asked. The funny thing is, I began to be asked a lot by pastor and some people. The Lord had me recently go over 2005 prayers I wrote down for the church--they are happening now!! Sitting down tempered me and helped keep me from getting into presumption--and when I had nothing to do or say, I had lots of down time to struggle with God to receive His love (giving Him my judgments-and there were several) for these people who were still trapped in the system. But that love is what gives God's power and authenticity to my words when He wants me to speak.
I realize not everyone is called to do as I do--however, I believe God is wanting us all to be very careful how and where we speak. This is His work. He (not me) is going to build His church--I just get to fit in where and how and when He says. I do believe things are changing. I do believe God is reaching in and giving revelation to a minister here and there. I do believe He is also giving them not only a hatred of religion, but a hatred of pride. I also believe God is raising up people outside the system, humble, bold people who are filled with God's vision, His heart, His Spirit and His words.--I think it is not all going to look like I think it will, and if I'm not careful, I could miss what God is doing right under my nose...
Lord, please help me to be totally dependent on You in what I think, do, and say. I don't want to speak fleshly judgments, even (or especially) if I am educated by the Spirit. I want to have Your heart, eyes and ears, and I want my tongue and everything else to be under Your control. I don't ever want to use the knowledge You have given me without Your wisdom and timing, but I also don't want to remain silent and fail to let You speak through me. I don't want the message You give me to share to be watered down or twisted by my flesh. Please help me accurately represent You. As I do, I believe with all my heart that these other things, the miracles and healings and all that You have out there for me to do will just be there if I continue seeking You with all my heart. Thank You for Your mercy, grace and compassion on my life, and thank you for not letting me get comfortable where You want me to stretch--either by sitting down or by faith-filled action.
Lord, also thank You for all these brothers and sisters who want to know You and do Your will. Please help them find the place You have for them in Your body, and help them know how to function powerfully and faithfully where You place them. Bless them with heavenly vision and heavenly wisdom that draws everyone around them that You've ordained to Yourself. Thank you much, Lord, in Jesus' name.
[Updated on: Tue, 13 May 2008 19:51]
Broken vessel in training: Pressing on to experience the fullness of Acts 17:28: For in Him we live, and move, and have our being...
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| Re: Faith Assembly, then and now... an update [message #1875 is a reply to message #1858] |
Wed, 14 May 2008 16:45 |
capturedbygrace
Messages: 41
Registered: April 2008
Location: Indianapolis, IN |
Member |
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Hi, Hombre! Thank you for noticing the time and effort I put into my comments. Anything worth doing... . You said: I can agree with it all, except for this part which is to me, about 50/50. I understand what you're saying about being gentle with believers (where would I be myself, if Jesus hadn't met me where He did?...and might I add..still does...)
Okay, okay, friend!  First, I very much appreciate your comment about being gentle with believers. I know you've been so with me. I have a question for you, though. (And I'm not particularly on your case--I know others who feel the same way, and from what I've seen so far it goes with the "slash and burn anointing," which I would otherwise think is apostolic for the most part.) How is this kind of response going to build good working relationships with others of us in the body of Christ who are not led to do it the way you are? Do you even honestly respect or appreciate our giftings? I wonder if you even think what we do could be of God since you say: however, I never find it convenient or righteous to sit and listen to any kind of error coming from any pulpit and sit there with a smile on my face, continuing on afterward for cookies and milk.
First, in discussing this, I am not trying to change you into being like me (my guys tell me we don't need any more of me when I threaten to clone myself).  - I'm not asking you to sit and listen to any kind of error...that's not your calling. For you, it would be compromise. (More about that below.) However, just because you can't do it, does that mean the rest of us who are working from within the structure are lukewarm, or fraternizing with the enemy, or compromising or... ?? I quote: ....perhaps...there are people like yourself, who are blessed in such a way (my comment: what makes me think you don't see it as a blessing, or perhaps as even a legitimate gifting?) as to be able to stomach such tasteless and oftentimes rancid gruel as I have heard coming from the mouths of 'well-meaning', possibly daft fellows, and wait and wait and wait until they may perhaps accept for the purpose of tasting, a smidgeon of the meat you have to offer, (my comment: how do you know how much they will receive-each case stands on its own, doesn't it? and do you really think God would send us somewhere we would be wasting our time? Whatever the results, we aren't wasting our time if we were sent.) but I frankly do not have enough time left in my life to waste on trivial pursuits (my comment: you have, perhaps without meaning to, just tried to trivialize--you can't if God really did call us--the lives of all your brothers and sisters who are called to operate in this way).
Before I go on, I need to admit that I never used to appreciate the "slash and burn anointing" and used to try to "pray away" that kind of thinking and personality that went with it in my then-husband, but that was before I understood. God set me straight reasonably quickly on that. - One day the Lord said he needed the strength of that personality to sustain/carry his giftings. What He wanted me to pray instead was that he be totally submitted to the Holy Spirit. That worked for me, brother. I began to see that if he, my son and others didn't have that anointing, the true church of Jesus Christ wouldn't get very far. You-all are God's sledge-hammers, the way-makers. You make a path where there is none, and you clear out man's debris. Furthermore, the body of Jesus Christ will not be operating rightly till we can receive "your kind" in our ranks without rolling our eyes at the "trouble you cause!" God gave you-all to us, and we need you!! We are sinning against God and the body not to receive that.
I just happen to think that the respect and appreciation God began to give me for that anointing is meant to go both ways. But what I see here is the "clash of giftings" and/or the differing administration of gifts. Hombre, can you acknowledge the possibility that some of us are at times led to be "God's undercover agents" without making us feel less or like Benedict Arnold?
You say: It has just been my experience to be continuously rejected by such, no matter what sort of attractive presentation I arrange, with which I serve the meat by. You could be sowing seeds, or that really is a waste of your time.
You say: They like sugar and milk, and that is what they like. ...oh yes, add a large dollop of guilt and community/church service and there you have it. You make it sound like they are putting people on parole (community service...)  -which isn't that offbase. But what I don't think you understand about some of us is that we aren't there to go along with the system--we are there to not get sucked in, to demonstrate living differently, to pray against the strongholds, and begin to see people set free...
Broken vessel in training: Pressing on to experience the fullness of Acts 17:28: For in Him we live, and move, and have our being...
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| Re: Faith Assembly, then and now... an update [message #1878 is a reply to message #1858] |
Wed, 14 May 2008 20:17 |
capturedbygrace
Messages: 41
Registered: April 2008
Location: Indianapolis, IN |
Member |
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Part 2 of my reply - thought you were rid of me at least for a while, didn't you, heh, heh?
Hombre, you say: I need to be fed things like FAITH and DEATH TO THE SELF LIFE in order to survive and continue growing, and I DON'T GET IT THERE. I am not the consummate apostle, who can weather any storm including the barrage of delusional/deceptive theology and come away not being affected by it. Nor can I come away unaffected by it, brother. I have had to learn to "dig wells in the desert" for myself and to do as David did-encourage himself in the Lord. Though I know we're not meant to stay in the desert indefinitely, I do believe we find out more what we think of God's Word when we are "out there" with seemingly no accountability.
You say: Now, as to the 'why' behind why it affects me that way, I don't know...but I have a smidgeon of thought about that.
1. It could be from watching brothers and sisters wrestle unto death with the Word of God, having NOT received the promise of healing in their physical bodies (or healing for their children, or seeing the Word of God itself contribute to divorce when both parties don't walk the same walk, or...) yet believing nonetheless
I understand that-but that is not all there is to it...there are the things we learn along the way...I would never, ever have volunteered for the trials I've been through, but every so often I get "out of the valley" long enough to see where I've been, where I'm headed, and what I'm learning along the way...I'm getting gold from them thar hills and valleys!! It's hard to remember in the midst of pain sometimes, but when I get a breather, I see just a glimpse of how worth it this walk is... . And I feel sorrow for those who don't know of it. You know once someone said to me, "I can't see any reason for God to have placed you where you are (in the body that's transforming before my very eyes--this was said before the transformation started manifesting) unless He sent you in as a missionary to the church...but I've never heard of that." So?? Since when can't something that we've never heard of happen? And some are "converting... ."
and consequently watching...people who apparently can't read the Kings' English well enough to know that the Bible does indeed teach just that, and instead teaching the opposite, and typecasting those who like us believe the word of God to be literal, as sorry brainwashed souls...........the mental dilemma and contradiction that creates in my head is excruciating enough without nodding along with them and accepting their definition of me as an idiot. - I don't agree with them at all or "accept their definition of me as an idiot." (Is that how they think of me? Ignorance was bliss. ) And didn't Jesus go through worse? People all the time were misunderstanding Him and His purpose. - Hombre, I can honestly understand "the people of the system" (be they 'shepherd' or 'sheep') misunderstanding us. What is harder to understand (and I can never accept) is your sometimes view of some of your other brothers and sisters who are led differently than you are! (We're talking about accepting giftings here, not people. I know you accept us as people.) I almost think you feel you have to accept us, so you say, "Whatever!" and go on. But I don't think you yet see us as God does--and that robs and hinders the body--God doesn't want lip-service in any area from any of us, even in this.
2. It's just the flat out righteous indignation of having heard the good news of the world to come, having tasted of those things, and then sitting under a ministry that denies the truth and ministers that to my fellow Christians who, though they may not have heard a tenth of what we have, are nevertheless being conformed into the image of their pastors beliefs message by insidious message, so that they become so rooted and grounded in their systems' beliefs that one might as well be speaking to a stone wall, as to be speaking to them. That's why some of us are sent--to live the truth of the Word--because speaking it is not enough. I might add there will come a time when God tells us to come out, that no more ground can be gained from within, that staying longer would backfire and begin to undo what He did through us--and I am ready for that any time, but until then, wild horses couldn't drag me away! And yes, we still need "you-all"-we need demonstration from without that we can point to... .
3. ...it's something about the Word living inside of me, that doesn't allow false doctrine a place in me, and consequently, when I hear it, I come to attention, locked and loaded.... That is why you couldn't even conceive of doing what we do--it's not within your God-appointed sphere of activity...but I'm asking for a stretch here, brother. I am asking you to get before our Lord enough to find out what He says about those of us within. And by the way? It was no less than an apostle who kept praying about my place in my church (because they were bugged about it!) who sensed God "smiling at" my pastor. Way before he looked like anything other than a person of the system, God told the apostle that my pastor was an "end-time" pastor...when things got rough, I'd always go back to God on that with an "Are You sure...?" He never has left me without guidance in the system...(except when I was hiding out there for a season because it was too painful to deal with my circumstances compared to the reality of the Word of God...and even then He was merciful--I repented and I've been forgiven, thank You, Jesus).
I am exactly the way they are about their doctrine, it's just that mine happens to have Biblical basis...and I'm not ashamed to say so when I'm right. Nor are we either, brother when God leads us. Sharing parts of my story has shaken things up--enough to get us talking not just bits of meat, but strong meat.
This is not an attack on you, Grace, nor an attack on my brothers and sisters out there, wherever they are, it is an attack on false religion I don't believe it is a purposeful attack against us, brother, but I do think it is still something you are wrestling with - I don't believe you see it yet as fully possible we are in the system but not of it.
I believe personally, that the religious system is worse than no system at all. I do too, brother, but I believe some of us are infiltrators... . Some of this comes down to "snatching some out of the fire, hating even the garment defiled by the flesh," as Jude says.
...so anyway, Lord Bless all of you who have the tenacity, looooooongsuffering, and patience to endure that sort of thing, I'm just not up to it. So for now, I'm going to continue howling in the wilderness.
I would say my howling is first against anything and everything that keeps those of us from being the body Jesus is calling--He does not mean for us to divide over our gifts and callings. We all need to function in them as He wills and receive one another--and learn from one another, or God's army won't be ready for the battles to come. The unsaved can also be lost because of division in our ranks... .
Broken vessel in training: Pressing on to experience the fullness of Acts 17:28: For in Him we live, and move, and have our being...
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| Re: Faith Assembly, then and now... an update [message #1913 is a reply to message #1878] |
Thu, 22 May 2008 02:34 |
JWBTI
Messages: 253
Registered: March 2007
Location: Ohio |
Senior Member |
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Psa 107:15 Oh that men would praise the LORD for his goodness, and for his wonderful works to the children of men!
This past Sunday God showed forth His goodness. A brother shared, that the retina in his eye had seperated.
He went to the doctor and was told he would need an operation to repair the eye but he would have to go to
Indianapolis to have this done, so the doctor set everything up. This was a couple of weeks past. After he
was told this, He asked that hands be laid on him for healing......So be it
Last week he went to Indy for the surgery as he couldn't get out of the appointment, when the doctors
checked his eye prior to the operation... they were amazed.....The eye was totally and wonderfully healed.
Praise Jesus !
An elderly sister told how she had fallen an injured the rotator cup in her shoulder. She was informed
to contact the specialist in Columbus, Ohio.... she needed immediate surgery....
Well.....What is she going to do ? She couldn't move or raise her arm ! Nope...she didn't call Columbus !
She asked that hands be laid on for healing: because She was fully persuaded that God was able to perform
what He Had Promised. Rom 4:21....Amen
Last week durning Bible study as they were Praising & Singing to the Lord an without a thought, both her
arms went straight up in praise to the Lord.... no pain..... no limitations......fully persuaded....Healed !
Another brother testified that after having hands laid on him for an ear problem the pain left immediately.
But the next day he started having tremendous pain in the other ear...He committed that to the Lord also.
The following day the pain started to leave & he thought he better have it looked at....
The doctor said .......I got bad news for you & I got good news for you !
The Bad news...........The ear drum had broken !
The Good News is ....That it was totally healed !
His hearing is better now in both ears, then it has ever been in his whole life.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Ron
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| Re: Faith Assembly, then and now... an update [message #1916 is a reply to message #1913] |
Thu, 22 May 2008 11:48 |
capturedbygrace
Messages: 41
Registered: April 2008
Location: Indianapolis, IN |
Member |
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Wonderful stories of God's faithfulness--what an encouragement! He's the same yesterday, today and forever. Thank you, brother...
Broken vessel in training: Pressing on to experience the fullness of Acts 17:28: For in Him we live, and move, and have our being...
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| Re: Faith Assembly, then and now... an update [message #1993 is a reply to message #1878] |
Mon, 02 June 2008 18:01 |
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william
Messages: 1451
Registered: January 2006 |
Senior Member
Administrator |
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| Quote: |
I believe that William is quite successful at this time doing that, in that he has somehow been able to worm his way into the pulpit...
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Well, I wouldn't use the term "worm"... but I'm there at least once a week! <grin>
I actually attend a rather large charismatic church where the pastor has recently resigned due to some (we think) sexual improprieties. I say "we think" only because the elders were outmaneuvered when they attempted to collaborate the charge and were unable to effectively discharge their biblical duties because they rushed in and signed (apparently) a nondisclosure agreement with the pastor in question. Duh! ... amazing what people do to be "in the know".
Anyway, this left them in the ridiculous position of accepting a resignation without the ability to explain what transpired to the congregation. The biblical mandate to rebuke a sinning elder so others will fear, became impossible without the threat of legal action… which effectively meant that it was better for them to obey man rather than God. Not an enviable position, to say the least.
Fortunately God is still in control. The stupid among us are in the process of resigning, presumably so that they will be in good standing with the predator once he completes his year sabbatical (complete with counseling) and embarks upon some new work. Yuck.
Didn't mean to unburden myself so completely... I just wanted to say that the door that was opened to teach in the other church was not something I forced my way into... it is only once a week (Wednesday night) and so far I'm very encouraged about the receptivity of the people. Last week there were questions about tongues!
Paradoxically the situation that happened in my own church would have been handled very differently in the other church... I'm pretty confident it would have been done biblically there!
Blessings,
William
I want to believe!
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