| Thoughts on Predestination [message #13690] |
Thu, 21 January 2021 22:55  |
 Mark L
Messages: 834
Registered: October 2006
Location: Canada |
Senior Member |
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Predestination, Foreknowledge . . . I've had some thoughts on it specifically about how could God preordain while still leaving responsibility entirely in our hands. I had some thoughts going on from that too. Anyway, I had some thoughts.
So let's take a very crude and simple example of a very deep subject.
There is a man who from a desire for money conceives the idea to go and rob a bank. So he sets out gun in hand. As judge of all the earth God sees this and decides to let him go ahead with his sinful desire. God is going to use it for his own ends though as judge of all the earth. The man has a bank in mind he is going to rob. God though with justice in mind is going to use him to punish another bank that is oppressing poor people. So God starts putting roadblocks in his way. So the robber is completely unable to get to the bank he wanted to rob and because of the roadblocks, he ends up right in front of the bank that God, as judge has determined, needs to be punished. So he decides to rob it.
So who is responsible? He conceived the idea out of his own heart. All God did was stop him from going straight ahead towards the original bank. Also if he was giving in to temptation there had to be something in his heart to be tempted. James 5/13-15
So to take it a bit further if we believe God has foreordained all things then he would have had to sort out the issues in relation to the man robbing the bank and accomplishing his own ends without being involved. All the rest of his life as well. Thoughts dreams motives all originating out of his own heart. Or responding to temptation. Living with a family. Responding to relating to and being in the midst of society. All the myriad of issues relating to a bank robber's life. All sorted out so the man's own thoughts and motives and yielding to temptations directed his own life while still bringing the ends God wants.
All conceived and brought out of the man's own sinful heart. That point in relation to predestination cannot be emphasized strongly enough. It comes out of a person's own heart with God simply allowing or allowing that heart or life to be directed.
A very good eg of this is 1 Kings 22 The death of wicked King Ahab. God himself sent allowed and directed but who is responsible?
To take that even further there are billions of us here on earth that would have had to been foreordained as well. As well as those who went before us. Then all the (probably) multiplied billions who lived before the flood. Plus a world filled with animals birds fish . . . of all kinds. All those actions thoughts motives desire sorted out in his own mind before the world ever was.
So let's take this a step further. I've said before on these pages that I believe heaven is a generic term used as characteristic of the entire spiritual realm. The spiritual realm is filled with dominions universe worlds realms filled with personalities we know nothing about. Stepping out on a bit of limb here there are probably millions of them. Realms that is. I've also said I think there are created beings that see our universe as a little neighborhood park. Following with that concerning our universe that we live in when all done, we will have 144,000 universes all varying in kind size and characteristics. In my opinion, the mighty angel of Rev. 10 is the one in charge of building them
So with my robber and roadblock eg in mind . . . God an infinite personality before having created anything: standing alone in his own being: understanding what sin and righteousness are and having an end in mind with foreknowledge: predestined and preordained all the actions ideas beliefs thoughts motives ideas yieldings . . . of all the uncountable numbers of free moral beings. angels humans and whoever else there is.
Can we even conceive of a personality like that? That can hold all that in his mind put it all together in his mind along with all the possibilities. A personality with that kind of intelligence has wisdom not just greater than us but wisdom of completely different order.
To take it one step further not only having the wisdom to conceive and hold this in his mind but having the power knowledge authority understanding ability to actually carry it out and make it happen. Planning an action is much different from carrying it out. A personality infinite in all his being. I don't think that we as humans have the intelligence to really understand how big our God is. The really interesting thing to me is that his name is Jesus.
Fires will be kindled to testify that two and two make four. Swords will be drawn to prove that leaves are green in summer.”
G.K. Chesterton
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| Re: Thoughts on Predestination [message #13694 is a reply to message #13692] |
Fri, 22 January 2021 04:27  |
Mark L
Messages: 834
Registered: October 2006
Location: Canada |
Senior Member |
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william wrote on Thu, 21 January 2021 23:49***!!!---MIND@BLOWN---!!!***
Yup I agree. When you realize how big God really is . . .
Ps. 113/4-6
The Lord is high above all nations and his glory above the heavens
Who is like . . . Who humbles himself to behold the things in Heaven and in the earth.
A more up to date way to say that is Who stoops down to look into
Not just our earth but heaven as well
[Updated on: Fri, 22 January 2021 04:28]
Fires will be kindled to testify that two and two make four. Swords will be drawn to prove that leaves are green in summer.”
G.K. Chesterton
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| Re: Thoughts on Predestination [message #13744 is a reply to message #13694] |
Sat, 05 June 2021 06:59 |
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william
Messages: 1451
Registered: January 2006 |
Senior Member
Administrator |
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I was thinking about this "human" aspect with reference to what you were saying; couple that with the fact that Jesus took on Himself this human nature and elevated it back to what it was in the beginning.
[Heb 2:16 KJV] 16 For verily he took not on [him the nature of] angels; but he took on [him] the seed of Abraham.
For the most part I confess that I've looked upon the human aspect of Jesus as something that He had to do for us for salvation but just as quickly elevated the Divine so as to almost forget that He will forever be the God-Man. As Christians we tend to see ourselves, our human parts, as something that will eventually be swallowed up in the divine. This almost becomes pantheistic thinking unless we realize that we will always be "human". Glorified to be sure, but human, nonetheless. And, as God says in the creation account--it was good!
The death burial and resurrection was surely necessary for our salvation, viz. His humanity... but those eternal promises concerning the Messiah's reign and rule are also completely dependent upon His glorified "Human" nature. As you go back and read some of them you'll see that there isn't any way for a naturally decaying human--Son of David to fulfill the promised reign of the Messiah.
It's also clear (from those promises) that the Messiah is both Divine and Human--Emmanuel. God, for sure, but also the Son of Mary.
[Mat 1:23 KJV] 23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
Blessings,
William
[Updated on: Mon, 07 June 2021 13:46]
I want to believe!
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