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Re: Why I Believe In Annihilation [message #957 is a reply to message #956 ] Mon, 19 November 2007 21:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Derick N.  is currently offline Derick N.
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moulder wrote on Mon, 19 November 2007 20:23

Okay guys, spiritualize as much as you want, but I'm not buying it... let's see, Ezekiel, Jesus, Revelation, heck*, it isn't worth bringing up another scripture cause you guys will just say it doesn't mean what it says.


The scriptures mean what they say, you are just putting them together wrong. But I'm not "spiritualizing" anything. Thats always the cop-out when people run out of arguments.

At least you are not accusing Mike and I of being deluded by doctrines of demons... something I would have expected in the good old days. lol

moulder wrote on Mon, 19 November 2007 20:23


* heck : euphemistic alteration of hell, first recorded 1865.

hell : euphemism [we now know] for the place or state of punishment of the wicked after death; the abode of evil and condemned spirits; Gehenna or Tartarus.

handbasket : vehicle used to convey this discussion to the garbage dump of worthless discussions!


Not worthless Brother, just useless. These revelations come by much study, prayer and agony. Imagine the pain of giving up a doctrine that I had preached as "gospel" for years... it was gut wrenching, not something you are going to perceive because some guy wrote a few lines about in in a forum.
Re: Why I Believe In Annihilation [message #958 is a reply to message #957 ] Mon, 19 November 2007 22:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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Quote:

The scriptures mean what they say, you are just putting them together wrong. But I'm not "spiritualizing" anything. Thats always the cop-out when people run out of arguments.


Well, whether it is you or your buddy, spiritualizing the word is what is taking place. Denying that the spiritualizing of the word is taking place is either blindness on your part or a willful lack of discernment.

You'll need only to satisfy yourself as far as your opinion on whether or not I've "run out of arguments", but if your mind isn't completely closed you might consider that a lack of response to you and your cohort is not a result of a lack of an argument, but rather a lack of interest in what some consider a worthless position defended by persons who aren't likely to change. As a wise man once said, "it is like bailing the ocean out with a spoon", certainly not something I want to attempt.

Ditto that for the oneness manifesto thread.

William


I want to believe!
Re: Why I Believe In Annihilation [message #959 is a reply to message #958 ] Tue, 20 November 2007 00:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Michael The Disciple  is currently offline Michael The Disciple
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Will the devil live forever?

Who knows where we got the teaching about the devil being a great angelic being who sinned his position away?

Here it is. What we know about the origin of the devil:

11: Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
12: Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13: Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God
; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14: Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15: Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16: By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17: Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18: Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19: All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more. Ezekiel 28:11-19

If this is not talking about satan then we know really nothing about his origin. Yet it also tells of HIS END. He shall be burned up and BE NO MORE!

Revelation says this:

10: And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Rev. 20:10

Yet Ezekiel said he will be burned up and be no more.

The seeming contradiction goes away when we know that forever and ever does not mean something that never ends. Rather it is a plural of ages. The devil and his beast followers will be tormented for a number of ages. How long an age is is known only to YAH.

8: But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 2 Peter 3:8

After that they shall die.



Re: Why I Believe In Annihilation [message #960 is a reply to message #958 ] Tue, 20 November 2007 00:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Michael The Disciple  is currently offline Michael The Disciple
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moulder wrote on Mon, 19 November 2007 22:46

Quote:

The scriptures mean what they say, you are just putting them together wrong. But I'm not "spiritualizing" anything. Thats always the cop-out when people run out of arguments.


Quote:

Well, whether it is you or your buddy, spiritualizing the word is what is taking place. Denying that the spiritualizing of the word is taking place is either blindness on your part or a willful lack of discernment.

You'll need only to satisfy yourself as far as your opinion on whether or not I've "run out of arguments", but if your mind isn't completely closed you might consider that a lack of response to you and your cohort is not a result of a lack of an argument, but rather a lack of interest in what some consider a worthless position defended by persons who aren't likely to change. As a wise man once said, "it is like bailing the ocean out with a spoon", certainly not something I want to attempt.

Ditto that for the oneness manifesto thread
.

William

Perhaps there is a lack of interest on your part. Yet there are some of us out here who have done the homework and were stunned to see the overwhelming scriptural foundation for annihilation.

True to some no big deal. But to me who had preached the wicked would gain immortality in the fires of Gehenna for EIGHTEEN YEARS it was huge.



It funny that no one can present one scripture where Paul the writer of most of the New Testament mentions people burning in Gehenna for billions and trillions of years of endless torment.

IMMORTALITY IS SOMETHING ONLY PROMISED TO THE RIGHTEOUS.

6: Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Immortality is defined in verse 7 as eternal life. The wicked will not see life but rather the wrath of God in their destruction.

[Updated on: Tue, 20 November 2007 00:28]

Re: Why I Believe In Annihilation [message #961 is a reply to message #960 ] Tue, 20 November 2007 00:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Michael The Disciple  is currently offline Michael The Disciple
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Hey guys what is OUTER DARKNESS? The MIST OF DARKNESS in the scripture? Did you read my post about it?

How does something as brilliant as an enormous lake of fire come to be called "outer darkness"?
Re: Why I Believe In Annihilation [message #964 is a reply to message #958 ] Tue, 20 November 2007 07:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Derick N.  is currently offline Derick N.
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moulder wrote on Mon, 19 November 2007 22:46

Quote:

The scriptures mean what they say, you are just putting them together wrong. But I'm not "spiritualizing" anything. Thats always the cop-out when people run out of arguments.


Well, whether it is you or your buddy, spiritualizing the word is what is taking place. Denying that the spiritualizing of the word is taking place is either blindness on your part or a willful lack of discernment.


HaHaHa.. I expected that. Next will come the accusation of being deceived by demons. Just as Brother Freeman's message and faith evolved through the years, so has mine, and so should every true believer be open to deeper understanding. This is not a deception, but an evolution of understanding... God's justice does not need or get satisfaction from the sizzling bodies of tormented people in hell for eternity.

moulder wrote on Mon, 19 November 2007 22:46


You'll need only to satisfy yourself as far as your opinion on whether or not I've "run out of arguments", but if your mind isn't completely closed you might consider that a lack of response to you and your cohort is not a result of a lack of an argument, but rather a lack of interest in what some consider a worthless position defended by persons who aren't likely to change. As a wise man once said, "it is like bailing the ocean out with a spoon", certainly not something I want to attempt.



The lack of response is due to the fact that this board is a "howdy Doody" board for former FA folk. From some of the responses I can see that not many here are deep in the Word. A few know how to use a concordance, and a couple might even know some greek and hebrew.

Its funny though that you call Mike my "buddy" and my "cohort", because we somewhat agree on this issue.

moulder wrote on Mon, 19 November 2007 22:46


Ditto that for the oneness manifesto thread.



I haven't weighed in on that on yet, but we are probably in agreement there. One God with three separate manifestations... is that how you take it? Me too. See, I am not totally posessed by demons. lol
Re: Why I Believe In Annihilation [message #965 is a reply to message #964 ] Tue, 20 November 2007 08:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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Quote:

moulder wrote on Mon, 19 November 2007 22:46
Quote:


Quote:

Derick Quote:

The scriptures mean what they say, you are just putting them together wrong. But I'm not "spiritualizing" anything. Thats always the cop-out when people run out of arguments.




Well, whether it is you or your buddy, spiritualizing the word is what is taking place. Denying that the spiritualizing of the word is taking place is either blindness on your part or a willful lack of discernment.




HaHaHa.. I expected that. Next will come the accusation of being deceived by demons. Just as Brother Freeman's message and faith evolved through the years, so has mine, and so should every true believer be open to deeper understanding. This is not a deception, but an evolution of understanding... God's justice does not need or get satisfaction from the sizzling bodies of tormented people in hell for eternity.


I did not refer to your position as "a deception" (although that may be the case) I referred to your inability to see that your side is involved in spiritualizing the word.

Think about this... if God intends to "eternally punish" those who reject His Son (set aside for a moment the spiritualizing of the concept of eternal punishment and view it in its traditional sense), could you tell me how He would go about expressing the concept? Can you do it without using words like "forever and ever", "eternal punishment", "everlasting fire", etc.?

If you were going to reveal the doctrine of eternal punishment (in its traditional sense) how would you do it, apart from the language used?

He does it using expressions that stretch the limits of our comprehension.

If the doctrine is true, how could it be expressed better?

The only way one can disprove the doctrine is by removing the power of the expressive language used. You do that by saying that the words used don't mean what they say, you do it by castrating the plain meaning of the expressions, you do it by spiritualizing the passages that don't fit your conclusion, you do it by mocking the notion that God might actually punish eternally (again, I know of no other words to use to express this awesome concept) those who reject Him. You do it by separating the idea that Satan might be worthy of such a reward; he's different from us, he's "supernatural" (along with his partners in crime)!

Finally, you do it in the same way your buddy eviscerates the power of the plain meaning of the word in his oneness manifesto, and then you have the gall to lay the onus of defending the plain teaching of scripture on us????

Snidely insinuating that your position is one that can only be reached by much prayer and fasting and then when one declines the offer to answer a fool according to his folly, you attribute this to shallowness? Give me a break.

Quote:

The lack of response is due to the fact that this board is a "howdy Doody" board for former FA folk. From some of the responses I can see that not many here are deep in the Word. A few know how to use a concordance, and a couple might even know some greek and hebrew.


Wow, such a resume you must bring to the table! We are dumb lambs just waiting for such a one as you (and your would be disciple) to wow us with your impressive skills on telling us the real meaning behind the words that we've been misusing all of our lives.

I knew we had an awesome intellect in our midst when you wrote on the chalkboard:
Quote:

You don't have too many options though. Either:

1. God does not judge sin(which we know is untrue).

2. God punishes sin eternally(which just ain't right). {Boy, this one highlights the fact that we have greatness in our midst!—William}

3. God punishes sin once(which fits His nature).


And who can forget the awesome wisdom displayed by this deep wonder worker:

Quote:

Cut and Paste Word Technicians often get in trouble using the letter(Strong's numbers) rather than the Spirit(The deeper meaning of the author).


My suggestion: Shake the dust off of your feet cause we aren't buying your dribble!

William


I want to believe!
Re: Why I Believe In Annihilation [message #966 is a reply to message #965 ] Tue, 20 November 2007 10:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Derick N.  is currently offline Derick N.
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moulder wrote on Tue, 20 November 2007 08:57



Snidely insinuating that your position is one that can only be reached by much prayer and fasting and then when one declines the offer to answer a fool according to his folly, you attribute this to shallowness? Give me a break.


Wow... now I'm a fool. Great administration there Brother. Does anyone who disagrees with your doctrinal stance get to be included in the fool catagory?

moulder wrote on Tue, 20 November 2007 08:57



Wow, such a resume you must bring to the table! We are dumb lambs just waiting for such a one as you (and your would be disciple) to wow us with your impressive skills on telling us the real meaning behind the words that we've been misusing all of our lives.


I share my opinion about the Word just as you do, but I don't have to insult you to do it. I never bragged about my skill in the Word, just made the observation that there are few theologians here. Apparently I hit a nerve.

moulder wrote on Tue, 20 November 2007 08:57


My suggestion: Shake the dust off of your feet cause we aren't buying your dribble!

William


Is that your way of inviting me to leave? I guess any other interpretation of scripture is "dribble".

I've met and dealt with religious inflexibility my whole life. I never consider anyones position as "dribble", as there is always a good reason for what they believe. Many times they are too invested to consider other opinions. They have a reputation to uphold, or worry about what others would think if they entertained anything other than the hard line they have been holding.

As to your petty insults, they mean nothing. God bless you brother.

Re: Why I Believe In Annihilation [message #967 is a reply to message #966 ] Tue, 20 November 2007 11:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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Quote:

Wow... now I'm a fool. Great administration there Brother. Does anyone who disagrees with your doctrinal stance get to be included in the fool catagory?


You have stated your "doctrinal stance" and I've pretty much let you and the other one go on and on... I have no problem with anyone who disagrees with my position. I do have a problem when one comes with an "air of superiority" and insinuates things that are designed to "bait" the other side into arguing something that they have no desire to debate and then, from the lack of response, conclude that 1) There is no scriptural response, and 2) The other position lacks sufficient mental acumen to do anything more than cut and paste a few definitions from Strong's. The "superior" attitude displayed is what I find sickening.

I have attempted to show that your/his spiritualizing of the words and concepts of the argument might be the reason for the lack of interest in debating the issue--something you fail to realize. Also worthy of note is the fact that you tell us (again, with the superior air of authority) that it is nigh impossible for us to perceive the the gnostic qualities of your position without first spending a few years on the backside of a desert agonizing over this "deep" revelation, which by the way might still be incomprehensible to those who prefer the romper-room atmosphere of this "howdy doody" forum over against deep theological thinking.

Personally, I find it difficult to get excited (or even interested) about getting into a contest with an opponent that already has a pretty big spot on the front of their pants.

So don't mistake my position by concluding that it is based upon the lack of merit in your argument, it's not, it is based upon the shoddy way you have chosen to present your case.

For all I know, Hombre and the others may actually hold to the same doctrine... if they do, I'll be happy to discuss it with them, *unless* they attempt to brandish the same tendencies that you and Michael have displayed, i.e. spiritualizing the words and demeaning your opposition (medicine that you don’t seem to be able to take).

Quote:

I share my opinion about the Word just as you do, but I don't have to insult you to do it. I never bragged about my skill in the Word, just made the observation that there are few theologians here. Apparently I hit a nerve.


You haven't??? Maybe then it was the years of prayer, study, and agonizing that caused me to go outside and puke, but whatever the reason, be clear that it is the condescending tone that struck the nerve. I'm no theologian, I've not hidden my meager academic achievements, but understand one thing Mr. Rogers, I can read, and your posts drip with the condescending attitude of one who thinks he has arrived at a superior understanding and that my friend is what you have obviously taken away from your association with Faith Assembly.

Quote:

Is that your way of inviting me to leave? I guess any other interpretation of scripture is "dribble".


Wrong again. See my statement above for the answer to the source of the wet spot (it grows larger with each of your posts).

Quote:

I've met and dealt with religious inflexibility my whole life. I never consider anyones position as "dribble", as there is always a good reason for what they believe. Many times they are too invested to consider other opinions. They have a reputation to uphold, or worry about what others would think if they entertained anything other than the hard line they have been holding.

As to your petty insults, they mean nothing. God bless you brother.


Hear me once again, the argument about annihilation *IS NOT THE ISSUE* it is your/his presentation of that position that I have a problem with and the "inflexibility" of your (and Michael's) closed-superior-mind is the source of the vomit that you are seeing.

So there. Go, stay, I don't care, but please, if you want to be credible, quit trying to bait us with the notion that the reason for the lack of responsiveness is due to a lack of spiritual maturity and/or lack of sufficient "agonizing" over the issue, and/or because we need to have it "revealed" to us by some gnostic teacher with wet pants.

William


I want to believe!
Re: Why I Believe In Annihilation [message #968 is a reply to message #876 ] Tue, 20 November 2007 11:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Michael The Disciple  is currently offline Michael The Disciple
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Molder said:

For all I know, Hombre and the others may actually hold to the same doctrine... if they do, I'll be happy to discuss it with them, *unless* they attempt to brandish the same tendencies that you and Michael have displayed, i.e. spiritualizing the words and demeaning your opposition (medicine that you don’t seem to be able to take).

Me:

As to spiritualizing the word I wont argue about it. The word is spiritually discerned. As to DEMEANING MY OPPOSITION can you give an example of this?

I have been called various names here myself.
Re: Why I Believe In Annihilation [message #970 is a reply to message #968 ] Tue, 20 November 2007 12:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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I'm sorry I lumped you into that statement when only half of it applied.

William


I want to believe!
Re: Why I Don't Believe In Annihilation [message #971 is a reply to message #876 ] Tue, 20 November 2007 12:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Duncan  is currently offline Duncan
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Derick,

I gave you some scripture that settled it for me, but you never responded. I stated Matt 25 mentions "eternal fire." Your reponse was directed to "eternal punishment" by stating that punishment meant that sinners ceased to exist.

Your explanation still does not hold water to Jesus words describing an "eternal fire." Since you keep asking for more scripture (as if one time from the mouth of Jesus isn't enough), the following are a few more "holes in your bucket"...

Matt 18:8 - "eternal fire"

Matt 3:12 - "Unquenchable fire"

Mark 9:43,45 - "fire that shall not be quenched."

Mark 9:44,46,48 - "where the worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."

Luke 3:17 - "fire unquenchable"

Jude 7 - "suffering the vengence of eternal fire."

I'm sure that I could come up with more scripture than the ones above, but I think I have provided more than enough to satisfy your request.

Also, you'll have to excuse Moulder's behavior. He hasn't had his meds today, and he tends to get really worked up when people try to spiritualize the Word of God rather than take the scriptures literally. Unfortunately, he has had to double up on his prescription lately due to recent discussions.

I'm just thankful that Hombre hasn't made it to this board yet, because he REALLY takes it personal! Very Happy

Duncan
Re: Why I Don't Believe In Annihilation [message #972 is a reply to message #971 ] Tue, 20 November 2007 12:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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Quote:

Also, you'll have to excuse Moulder's behavior. He hasn't had his meds today, and he tends to get really worked up when people try to spiritualize the Word of God rather than take the scriptures literally. Unfortunately, he has had to double up on his prescription lately due to recent discussions.

I'm just thankful that Hombre hasn't made it to this board yet, because he REALLY takes it personal!


<grin>


I want to believe!
Re: Why I Don't Believe In Annihilation [message #974 is a reply to message #971 ] Tue, 20 November 2007 12:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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Besides, the institution only gives us a limited amount of time on the internet... I'll be getting out soon though! <grin>


I want to believe!
Re: Why I Don't Believe In Annihilation [message #981 is a reply to message #971 ] Tue, 20 November 2007 23:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Michael The Disciple  is currently offline Michael The Disciple
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Duncan wrote on Tue, 20 November 2007 12:15

Derick,

I gave you some scripture that settled it for me, but you never responded. I stated Matt 25 mentions "eternal fire." Your reponse was directed to "eternal punishment" by stating that punishment meant that sinners ceased to exist.

Your explanation still does not hold water to Jesus words describing an "eternal fire." Since you keep asking for more scripture (as if one time from the mouth of Jesus isn't enough), the following are a few more "holes in your bucket"...

Matt 18:8 - "eternal fire"

Matt 3:12 - "Unquenchable fire"

Mark 9:43,45 - "fire that shall not be quenched."

Mark 9:44,46,48 - "where the worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."

Luke 3:17 - "fire unquenchable"

Jude 7 - "suffering the vengence of eternal fire."

I'm sure that I could come up with more scripture than the ones above, but I think I have provided more than enough to satisfy your request.

Also, you'll have to excuse Moulder's behavior. He hasn't had his meds today, and he tends to get really worked up when people try to spiritualize the Word of God rather than take the scriptures literally. Unfortunately, he has had to double up on his prescription lately due to recent discussions.

I'm just thankful that Hombre hasn't made it to this board yet, because he REALLY takes it personal! Very Happy

Duncan


I addressed the "unquenchable fire" in my study.

Let us look at the phrase FIRE SHALL NOT BE QUENCHED in biblical context.

But if you will not hearken unto me to hallow the sabbath day and not to bear a burden even entering in at the gates of Jerusalem on the sabbath day, then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof and it shall DEVOUR the palaces of Jerusalem and IT SHALL NOT BE QUENCHED. Jer.17:27

The Chaldeans came and burned the city. Jer.39:8
Is that unquenchable FIRE still burning today?


The FIRE THAT SHALL NOT BE QUENCED means NOTHING can put it out.
But when it finishes the job GOD gives it to do it will go out of itself.
Re: Why I Don't Believe In Annihilation [message #984 is a reply to message #981 ] Wed, 21 November 2007 08:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Duncan  is currently offline Duncan
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Michael,
That's all well and good when you talking about the word in Hebrew, which refers to a fire on a wick that is extinguished. The Greek word used by Jesus means something totally different. It means "perpetual." To me, that doesn't sound like something that "goes out by itself." (As an aside, the Greek word is "Asbestos." I didn't know that and thought it was pretty cool). You'll have to do better than that if you're going to convince me.

Let me say for both you and Derick, that I would love nothing more than for both of you to be right. It would make me feel a lot better for all the sinners that came and went in my life that I never witnessed to. If they're just going to be burnt to a crisp, then their punishment will be over pretty quick. As such, I don't see it as any big deal. They won't have to deal with it for very long.

It's kind of like the spankings I used to get as a child. Some things were so fun that it was worth getting a quick, hard spanking that was over in a short time.

Duncan
Re: Why I Don't Believe In Annihilation [message #987 is a reply to message #984 ] Wed, 21 November 2007 11:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Derick N.  is currently offline Derick N.
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Duncan wrote on Wed, 21 November 2007 08:44

Michael,
That's all well and good when you talking about the word in Hebrew, which refers to a fire on a wick that is extinguished. The Greek word used by Jesus means something totally different. It means "perpetual." To me, that doesn't sound like something that "goes out by itself." (As an aside, the Greek word is "Asbestos." I didn't know that and thought it was pretty cool). You'll have to do better than that if you're going to convince me.

Let me say for both you and Derick, that I would love nothing more than for both of you to be right. It would make me feel a lot better for all the sinners that came and went in my life that I never witnessed to. If they're just going to be burnt to a crisp, then their punishment will be over pretty quick. As such, I don't see it as any big deal. They won't have to deal with it for very long.

It's kind of like the spankings I used to get as a child. Some things were so fun that it was worth getting a quick, hard spanking that was over in a short time.



Thats the ticket Brother. Why would The Heavenly Father need to be more violent in his discipline than your Earthly Father? Is He not slow to anger and gracious in His mercy?

Its not that Eternal Death is easier to believe than Eternal Torment, as they both require the same amount of faith, its just that it makes more sense when you look at the revelation as a whole, instead of trying to force an interpretation.

BTW the King James translators were heavily influenced by the Roman Catholic ideas of torment and torture which they picked up in the middle ages... you know all those paintings of little red demons with horns poking humans and throwing them on fires, etc.

How ridiculous.
Re: Why I Don't Believe In Annihilation [message #990 is a reply to message #987 ] Wed, 21 November 2007 11:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Duncan  is currently offline Duncan
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Derick,
I agree that the KJV has some interpretation issues, that is why I always go back to the Greek and Hebrew.

As for faith in either position, I don't see that it requires the same amount of faith.

Finally, as an answer on why would my Heavenly Father be more "violent" than my earthly father: My earthly father is not perfect. I got spanked for things that I didn't do, and I didn't receive enough punishment for some things that I did that were really horrible.

Back to my original point - If the only thing a sinner has to fear is a big "poof" and he's up in smoke, that wouldn't be much of a reason to give up what he considered a "fun" lifestyle. The fact that Jesus warned of "eternal fire" is what should get his attention as much as "eternal life." (Again, the exact same Greek word.)

Duncan
Re: Why I Don't Believe In Annihilation [message #993 is a reply to message #990 ] Wed, 21 November 2007 12:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Derick N.  is currently offline Derick N.
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Duncan wrote on Wed, 21 November 2007 11:25

Derick,
I agree that the KJV has some interpretation issues, that is why I always go back to the Greek and Hebrew.

As for faith in either position, I don't see that it requires the same amount of faith.


Sure it does. It takes the same faith to believe the doctors will heal you rather than God, but its easier to believe the doctors, because thats how we have been taught.

Similarly, we have all been taught the lie of the "Cosmic Slow Cooker of God", so its easier to believe that than anything else.


Duncan wrote on Wed, 21 November 2007 11:25


Finally, as an answer on why would my Heavenly Father be more "violent" than my earthly father: My earthly father is not perfect. I got spanked for things that I didn't do, and I didn't receive enough punishment for some things that I did that were really horrible.


Yes but your dad did not beat you to death, and then keep beating your dead, lifeless body for years and years. Would your Heavenly Dad do that?


Duncan wrote on Wed, 21 November 2007 11:25


Back to my original point - If the only thing a sinner has to fear is a big "poof" and he's up in smoke, that wouldn't be much of a reason to give up what he considered a "fun" lifestyle. The fact that Jesus warned of "eternal fire" is what should get his attention as much as "eternal life." (Again, the exact same Greek word.)



κόλασις αἰώνιος rendered "everlasting punishment" may be more properly be rendered as "the punishment of the age or aeon", or a "time-specific judgement" other than the time in which Christ is speaking.

The word αἰώνιος has been miconstrued as "time-linear", when it does not mean that at all. It has several shades of meaning, and must be interpreted "in context". Eternal Life does not mean a million, billion years, or any *length* of time at all.

As I said in another thread, I leave now and will revisit the forum in a few days. Thank you for the interesting debate Duncan, I probably knew your family during my time at FA. Its nice to know you are doing well.

Regards, Derick

[Updated on: Wed, 21 November 2007 12:23]

Re: Why I Don't Believe In Annihilation [message #999 is a reply to message #984 ] Sun, 25 November 2007 12:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Michael The Disciple  is currently offline Michael The Disciple
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Duncan wrote on Wed, 21 November 2007 08:44

Michael,
That's all well and good when you talking about the word in Hebrew, which refers to a fire on a wick that is extinguished. The Greek word used by Jesus means something totally different. It means "perpetual." To me, that doesn't sound like something that "goes out by itself." (As an aside, the Greek word is "Asbestos." I didn't know that and thought it was pretty cool). You'll have to do better than that if you're going to convince me.

Let me say for both you and Derick, that I would love nothing more than for both of you to be right. It would make me feel a lot better for all the sinners that came and went in my life that I never witnessed to. If they're just going to be burnt to a crisp, then their punishment will be over pretty quick. As such, I don't see it as any big deal. They won't have to deal with it for very long.

It's kind of like the spankings I used to get as a child. Some things were so fun that it was worth getting a quick, hard spanking that was over in a short time.

Duncan


Hi Duncan,

I think I see where some of your problem is on understanding doctrine. You had said on the Oneness thread you read Matt. 28 and that alone was enough to know that you were right.

Now in this discussion you are saying if nothing else the term "eternal" fire convinces you annihilation is wrong.

Both of these doctrines contain MUCH INFORMATION. You cannot just focus on one scripture or one word in the midst of MUCH INFO and not examine the REST.

Take this for instance. You say because the fire is eternal thats the end of the story.

But if we can just focus on and stand on one word of scripture to support our belief how about this?

16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

What does PERISH mean?

According to Strongs #622 it means to FULLY DESTROY.

The word perish does not mean to have immortality-eternal life. It means the opposite.

So on the basis of the fact Jesus said we have to believe on him or PERISH how can we teach that sinners that DONT BELIEVE will have eternal life after all?

True life in Gehenna would not be much of a life but nonetheless it would be life.

Yet the Lord and his disciples did not teach the lost would have eternal life but rather would PERISH or DIE.

As stated earlier I did not change my belief about eternal life in Hell out of sympathy for sinners but rather because the case for it in scripture was to powerful to resist.

Also since ONE WORD such as eternal fire can end an arguement about doctrine how about Gehenna itself?

Obviously Yeshua never even heard the word "hell".

When he spoke of sinners being cast into FIRE he called that Gehenna. We know where Gehenna comes from and what it was.

One strong factor about the doctrine of eternal destruction is we can pin point the doctrine in the Old Testament.

Isaiah 66 and Malachi 4 both are refernces Yeshua used when teaching about the judgment. Both of them indicate the DEATH of sinners.

Putting that with the fact Yeshua taught the SOUL (not just the body) would be destroyed is a good connection.

Yet if Yeshua were teaching about a place called "hell" there is no reference to it in the OT.

It goes like this:

Isaiah 66-Malachi 4 being connected in the Hebrew mindset to the ever burning fires coming up from the garbage dump outside the city called GEHENNA.

This is how the doctrine of eternal punishment is brought forth by Yeshua.

Those cast into GEHENNA suffer the SECOND DEATH. The first death ALL DIE including Christians. The second death is eternal. No coming back. Having no part in the glorious Kingdom of Yeshua made up of immortal beings who have overcome in this life.

But as concerning the phrase "eternal fire" if Yeshua wants the fire to burn eternally as a sign of his wrath that would not change the fact the wicked will PERISH.

[Updated on: Mon, 26 November 2007 11:37]

Re: Why I Don't Believe In Annihilation [message #1457 is a reply to message #999 ] Mon, 17 March 2008 14:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DeWayne  is currently offline DeWayne
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The many references in the Bible to 'eternal' punishment make it obvious that it will NEVER end. The sinner is dead even while he/she lives, but they're still alive. So the 'second death' does not mean the end of the sinner. Denying eternal punishment sounds too much like the cults, JW's, Adventists, Mormons, etc. God drowned nearly everyone on earth. Why would He not punish for eternity? He burned Sodom to a crisp. He cannot change. As has been mentioned before, in MT 25, if you believe eternal life means 'eternal', then it doesn't make any sense whatsoever to deny eternal punishment in fire. It's the same Greek word folks used in both cases. God is merciful, but when His mercy ends for someone LOOKOUT! Just read Revelation. God is going to punish His enemies and it will continue forever.

Heb. 13:8

Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
Re: Why I Don't Believe In Annihilation [message #1459 is a reply to message #1457 ] Tue, 18 March 2008 11:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Michael The Disciple  is currently offline Michael The Disciple
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Hey Dewayne,

Its easy to make a few general statements. I wonder if you read what I have written on the subject?
Re: Why I Don't Believe In Annihilation [message #1460 is a reply to message #1459 ] Tue, 18 March 2008 12:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DeWayne  is currently offline DeWayne
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I wonder if you read what I wrote. If you believe eternal life never ends then you MUST believe that eternal punishment NEVER ends too.
Re: Why I Don't Believe In Annihilation [message #1463 is a reply to message #1460 ] Wed, 19 March 2008 09:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Michael The Disciple  is currently offline Michael The Disciple
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Registered: September 2007
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Its obvious you did not read the straight to the point study I provided. I was the same way for the first 16 years of my walk. Opposing something I had never studied another side of.

My first day of actually studying the link between the doctrine of eternal destruction in the Tanach and the New Testament I was amazed at the force of this truth in scripture.

The weight of scripture brought me into this light.
Re: Why I Don't Believe In Annihilation [message #1464 is a reply to message #1463 ] Wed, 19 March 2008 23:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DeWayne  is currently offline DeWayne
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So you must believe that 'eternal life' will end too. It's the EXACT same Greek word. Or perhaps you think Jesus is confused.
Re: Why I Don't Believe In Annihilation [message #6038 is a reply to message #1463 ] Tue, 11 August 2009 14:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
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William,

As I went back through this old thread and read it,(yeah, well, there's worse things to spend time doing... Smile ) it becomes apparent to me that the charges by your critics are unjustified.

One of the biggest points of contention that I heard spouted when the call to abandon ship went out, was how you didn't stand up to the 'oneness doctrine' and others like it; this thread proves them wrong...you did everything you could to defend sound doctrine without actually attacking individuals.(unlike those who opposed your administration of this forum) This thread has you opposing these teachings before the 'heresy hunter' jumped on the bandwagon.

I see where you repeatedly refuted with scripture and sound interpretation the two guys who were pushing false teachings and error.

I just wanted to say that I am impressed with your restraint in dealing with false accusations, it reflects well on your teacher...no, not him, HIM.<grin>

james


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: Why I Believe In Annihilation [message #8528 is a reply to message #876 ] Mon, 31 October 2011 19:05 Go to previous message
lesjude  is currently offline lesjude
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You are in error as to what soul is. It is body and spirit together which is a soul. The spirit cannot die, only the physical body. They get a resurection body as everyone does. However theirs spends eternity in the punishment part of sheol and then in the lake of fire after the Great white throne judgement.
24 “ And they shall go forth and look
Upon the corpses of the men
Who have transgressed against Me.
For their worm does not die,
And their fire is not quenched.
They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”
Matthew 25:46
46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” (Both groups are awake and aware for eternity!)
And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— 46 where
‘ Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’[a]
Revelation 14:11
11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
Are you a Jehovah's Witness? If you are then this is why you believe annihilation. Denying the deity of Christ, as they do, is heresy and leads to more error and eternal punishment.
If you are not then you need deliverance from a deceiving spirit.
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