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New heavens and New Earth [message #13473 is a reply to message #13198] Mon, 25 May 2020 18:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mark L  is currently offline Mark L
Messages: 785
Registered: October 2006
Location: Canada
Senior Member
New heavens and New Earth

This is mentioned in 4 different places in the bible
Is. 65/17
Is. 66/22
2Peter 3/10-13
Rev. 21/1
A new heaven and a new earth to be created by God. There is no scripture to suggest that New Jerusalem will float just above the earth. Rev. 21/3 Jesus will be dwelling in new J and we will be with him. 2Peter 3/13 There will be a new earth. The eternal abode of the saints will be in new Jerusalem on the earth.
Various Theories of New Jerusalem [message #13478 is a reply to message #13198] Thu, 28 May 2020 23:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mark L  is currently offline Mark L
Messages: 785
Registered: October 2006
Location: Canada
Senior Member
Various Theories of New Jerusalem

1. It is a mystical city and not literal. This is the view of those who spiritualize everything else. It is based on Rev. 21/2,9-10 Since New Jerusalem (NJ) is described as the bride then it is the church it is speaking of.
But it says NJ is adorned as a bride vs 2 . also in vs 9-10 he mentions both bride and NJ
They say NJ signifies the glorified church and not a literal city. They say NJ is a heavenly city and ti will stay there.
Heb. 12/22

Answer:
The book of Zech. speaks of topographical changes to Israel to accommodate the city. Ezek 40-48 and Rev. 21 give a detailed description of the city. There is no reason for that if we aren't to take it seriously.
Rev. 22/3 The throne of God is in it. How can it be in the bride?
Rev. 21/22 There is no temple in it. No reason to say it is a mystical city.
There is not one reference to the people being the city.
Rev. 3/12 The people and the city are distinguished.
Rev. 21/2-5 Pronouns are used here to distinguish between the people and the city.
Heb. 12/22-23, 11/8-10
If the people are the city why do they reign in it or the nations enter it.
Rev. 22/5 21/24-27


2. It is not a literal city but a parable. A pictorial illustration of heaven. A city or commonwealth of good. NJ is describing the invisible spirit world. The pulpit commentary says it cannot exist according to the laws of gravity and architecture. It is describing heaven.

3.NJ is a literal city. The literal city of Zion during the millennium.
They say Rev. 21/1-8 describes the eternal state and then vs 9f goes back to the millennium.
Rev. 22/2 There are leaves for healing so it must be in the millennium because Rev.21/4 says there is no need for that in the eternal state. Ezek 47/12 speaks of a tree whose leaves are used for healing. That is during the millennium. Since Ezek is during the millennium than the tree of Rev. 22 must be the millennium too. But that doesn't have to be so.
Why does the presence of a tree in the eternal state have to be the same tree? There was a tree in the garden of Eden too. They were in the garden the millennium and the eternal state. There is no reason for it to be the same tree. It is in Rev. 2/7 as well.

They are really making an artificial distinction between Rev. 21 and Rev. 22 Rev. 20 is the Mill. Rev. 21-22 is the eternal state

They also say Rev. 21-22 (except 21/1-8) must be the millennium because of the presence of the nations 21/24, 22/2. We're told there are not any nations in the eternal state.
The reply is that Israel will be in the eternal state. Is. 66/22 A nation before God forever.
The OT does not distinguish between the Mill and the eternal state. The OT did not have all the light given in the new. In the OT there is no distinction between the mill and the eternal state. Other doctrines like 1st and 2nd advent aren't distinguished either. Is. 65/17-25 speaks of the mill. Is 66/21-24 speaks of the eternal state.

To reply to the issue of nations is all that Rev. 21/24-27 is saying is that whatever glory and light the kings and nations had in the mill they will bring into the eternal state. We shouldn't try to read too much into issues like this and make too much out of it.

4. Rev. 2/9f describes the eternal city and the eternal state of the church (or saints) which has its beginning in the mill. This view also goes from Rev. 21/1-8 being the eternal state with Rev. 1/9f going to the Mill.

When the church is joined in marriage to the bridegroom (Rev. 19) she then receives her prepared place of John 14 and never moves out of it. The church moves into the eternal state at the rapture. NJ descends from heaven and the church descends from heaven. He sees them both (the city and the bride) descending at the beginning of the mill.

In this view, the earth is not yet in its eternal state but the church is. This is a popular view of premillennialists but has problems.
a. The prophecies of the Mill OT & NT show Christ ruling from Mt. Zion on the earth not NJ. Is. 2, Zech. 14, Micah 4.
b. To follow logical sequence here the descent of NJ in the Mill is to follow the new heavens and the new earth. Followers of this view have to have 2 descents and they are in reverse order from the book of Rev. They say 21/2 speaks of the NJ at the beginning of the eternal state while 21/10 has NJ descending at the start of the Mill. We're told NJ withdraws so God can judge the earth and then comes the eternal state with new heavens and new earth.
c. NJ is suspended above the earth in the Mill then hos do the nations get up into it. They have longevity but not glorified bodies
d. We are clearly told when Jesus comes at the beginning of the Mill his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives. Zech. 14/4

[Updated on: Thu, 28 May 2020 23:30]

Biblical View of New Jerusalem [message #13479 is a reply to message #13198] Fri, 29 May 2020 16:29 Go to previous message
Mark L  is currently offline Mark L
Messages: 785
Registered: October 2006
Location: Canada
Senior Member
5. Biblical View

Rev. 20 describes the Mill. Rev. 21-22 is the eternal state. New heavens new earth new Jerusalem all are said to be new in Rev. 21. Rev 21/5 says everything will be new. There is not any teaching like this in any of the millennial passages.
Only restoration is talked about in the mill passages. Just change and restoration with nothing new. Zech 14/4, Ezek 40-48, Is. 35 Rom. 8 Creation is restored
Since NJ is related to the new heavens and earth in Rev. 21/2 then vs 10 is speaking of the same.
If the Mill and eternal state passages are not in proper order or appear to be confused or mixed up in the OT it is because the Jew didn't speak or think logically analytically or consecutively as we do in the western world. It is that way in much of the OT.

The characteristics of the city are not Mill but eternal.

a. There is no temple in NJ but the heart of the Mill city is the temple. Ezek. 40-48
b. There is no night in NJ 22/5. The Mill is 1000 yrs long. Years imply day and night.
c. All are saved in NJ. 21/27. In the mill disobedient sinners Egypt unsaved at the end etc. Zech. 14, Is. 65
d. There is no death in NJ. 21/4. There is death in the Mill. Is. 65/20
e. they will reign forever and ever. 22/5 In the mill they will reign for 1000 yrs.
f. the throne of God and Christ are in NJ. 22/3. In the Mill only Christ's throne is there.

Characteristics of Life in the Eternal State.

a. Rev. 21/1 no more sea. Seas no separate nations so they won't war all the time
b. 21/4 no more death. Rom. 5/17 says death reigns in this life.
c. 21/4 no more sorrow crying tears pain. There will be nothing to cry about.
d. 21/25, 22/5 There is no night there. 21/23 There are many scriptures that speak of God as light. 1John 1/5 This is not created light. This is light of another order beyond our comprehension. This is spirit. 1Tim. 16/16, James 1/17 We in the NT are children of light.
Is.9/2 42/7 Matt. 4/16 speaks of spiritual darkness
2Peter 2/4, Jude 6 angels kept with chains of darkness
Prov. 4/19 Joel 2/2 John 3/19-21
e. There will be no sin there. Wherein dwelleth righteousness. Even better than the garden of Eden.
f. 22/3 no more curse

Things present in the Eternal State

a. We are eternally present with the Lord Jon 14,17/24, 1Cor. 13/12, 11Cor. 5/6-8
b. An entrance into full knowledge 1Cor. 13/12
c. An eternity of Glory 11cor. 4/17 Col/ 3/4 Rom. 8/17-18
d. an eternity of service to the Lord. We will be busy. Rev. 22/3
e. An eternity filled with joy. Rev. 21/4 fullness of joy. The true joy of the lord.

[Updated on: Fri, 29 May 2020 16:32]

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