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Re: Where have all the people gone... [message #8877 is a reply to message #8876 ] Tue, 20 March 2012 18:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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Alright, maybe we are getting somewhere but you keep jumping from apostles to 1Cor 12 gifts, and finally to prayers of the saints.

1) Prayers of the saints. That works. God's hand of deliverance, healings, etc.. that has worked not only in my life but in the lives of multitudes of others. Plain old faith in God (not talking about the charismatic gifts) works and continues to work daily in our lives.

2) 1Cor 12 gifts. Those work. Tongues, interpretation, prophecy --we've all heard them. They are as ubiquitous as those cameras you mentioned. I've used those gifts, as has (I suspect) everyone here. Word of knowledge, wisdom, and discerning of spirits; all common gifts that we've either experienced ourselves or have watched as others have demonstrated them. Gifts of healings, faith, and miracles. All gifts that we have either personally experienced ourselves or heard about. (Miracles -- like the supernatural restoration of an eye, might be the exception here --but I believe they happen! I'm confident I'll eventually be a witness to this gift.)

3) Apostles. Now we narrow the field. If we accept that the signs of an apostle are different than the gifts of 1Cor 12, then we *might* have a case for missing apostles. There have been those called and commissioned by God Himself (by their own testimony) and sent forth with a message (T.L Osborn comes to mind) but admittedly there seems to be few in this category (based upon my very limited exposure). That said, I think that it is a bit presumptious to say that there aren't any because we've never been personally exposed to one; that seems to be a bit of a stretch.

So there. You may or may not have experienced some of these things but you are way off base to say that they don't work just because the level of authenticity hasn't met your high standard of proof. Like James said, Thomas was rebuked when he doubted the valid testimony of his peers. You can doubt or say we are lying, but you can never make me disbelieve those things that I know to be true.

Blessings,
William

[Updated on: Tue, 20 March 2012 18:06]


I want to believe!
Re: Where have all the people gone... [message #8878 is a reply to message #8834 ] Tue, 20 March 2012 19:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
wishing34  is currently offline wishing34
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But William,

In all three cases

Missing apostles
missing I COr12 power gifts
missing instant visible manifestations to everyday prayer


We never see things in these three areas that are for sure supernatural.

And we should.

If you think I ignored your last post it is because your three topics
were not the same three topics as my three topics above.

===========

I take a much stronger stand than you regarding saying that apostles are missing
because I believe it would be impossible for the signs and wonders of an apostle
to happen and we not hear about it through "Christian" media - Internet and TV.

To adopt an assumption that the apostles exist but they are hidden from us - maybe
in a deep jungle - puts us in a position where we are not in God's favor.
I am not ready to go to that theological place.

==========================


If someone thinks the level of anointing we have seen is enough compared to
what I describe as "missing instant visible manifestations to everyday prayer"
then they are happy


If someone thinks the level of signs and wonders (any ???)
that we have seen is enough to say they know of apostles then they are happy

If someone thinks that the ICor 12 power gifts (gift of healings for example)
is fulfilled by what they see in the meetings - past and present - then they are happy


To my mind if they are happy with such things they are not thinking clearly.
You apparently see it differently.

-----------------------------

I'm beginning to feel like I'm holding the silverware from HEF's old "bailing the ocean
out with a spoon" phrase that he always used to say.

I realize that every discussion has a viewpoint from the side of the other opinion so
I acknowledge you probably feel like you are using a spoon as well.


I think our discussion is winding down.


Jman

____________________
At the time of this post . . .
FA, the satellites, the spinoffs,and the FA diaspora have been having church
without apostles for 40 years and 80 days.
Initial start date 1/1/72






Re: Where have all the people gone... [message #8879 is a reply to message #8878 ] Tue, 20 March 2012 22:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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You're right, I guess I do see it differently.

No, I'm not satisfied with the status quo but I certainly don't live in a world that is devoid of these things (healings, gifts, apostles).

Secondly, I don't live in a world of fear; fear of failure, fear of trials, the fear that permeates the lives of so many. Fear and faith cannot co-exist so whenever fear is present there is no faith. Gideon lived in a time of fear. He experienced fear. Even when God saw fit to give him supernatural signs, he persisted in fear (supernatural signs don't necessarily solve problems). Gideon feared all the way up to the time for the final act. Then, after all that God had shown and said to him, he finally overcame his fear. This one little event where one of the heathen oppressors shared a dream overheard by Gideon, it was this, the most unlikely of 'miracles', that finally pushed out the fear so that his faith could operate. The faith that was REQUIRED for his mission to succeed. One of these days it might be something so simple as this that will convince a mighty man of God that His word is true and worthy to be trusted. Some unbeliever might interpret some dream and without any further ado (no parting of the sea, no walking on water) a child of God may be prompted to do exploits!

Like Gideon, we are not going to see anything happen until we settle down, set aside all fear, and believe.

Blessings,
William


I want to believe!
Re: Where have all the people gone... [message #8880 is a reply to message #8879 ] Wed, 21 March 2012 09:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
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Amen William; Jerubbaal, who is Gideon, is an excellent comparison, his first response to the angel of The Lord was to ask why things weren't working as he thought they should. He wanted to know "...where be all His miracles which our fathers told us of...?"

Something I noticed concerning fear and lack of total trust in God; Gideon was threshing wheat by the winepress for the purpose of 'Hiding it"(the wheat) from the Midianites, rather than trusting God to supply their daily needs. Maybe he considered it "risky" to rely upon God due to the fact he hadn't seen the miracles that had been reported by the forefathers. And even when The Lord showed him the requested 'sign',(dew on the fleece and dry ground) he still asked for more 'proof'.



"Now all these happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come." II Corinthians 10:11


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: Where have all the people gone... [message #8881 is a reply to message #8880 ] Wed, 21 March 2012 09:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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james wrote on Wed, 21 March 2012 08:22

Amen William; Jerubbaal, who is Gideon, is an excellent comparison, his first response to the angel of The Lord was to ask why things weren't working as he thought they should. He wanted to know "...where be all His miracles which our fathers told us of...?"

Something I noticed concerning fear and lack of total trust in God; Gideon was threshing wheat by the winepress for the purpose of 'Hiding it"(the wheat) from the Midianites, rather than trusting God to supply their daily needs. Maybe he considered it "risky" to rely upon God due to the fact he hadn't seen the miracles that had been reported by the forefathers. And even when The Lord showed him the requested 'sign',(dew on the fleece and dry ground) he still asked for more 'proof'.



"Now all these happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come." II Corinthians 10:11


Good point James, I should have read the account before shooting from the hip!

Another thing is that we've kinda focused on the lack of faith being the primary reason for our lack, with the question of God's sovereignty running a close second, but another major reason may well be the sinfulness of the Church in general.

In each of the dispensations you can see the ebb & flow of the supernatural miracles mirroring the spiritual condition of God's people. Sin being the prime cause.

Not only do we see that in the book of Judges but also in the time before Jesus' first coming. There was a period of almost 400 years of silence before John the Baptist (without miracles) begin to pave the way for the coming King. Yes, it was a different dispensation but that doesn't negate the pattern that we see over and over in the Scriptures. I trust that paving the way for His second coming will be replete with miracles and signs but that doesn't mean that a lack (seemingly) right now, means that God's promise isn't working.

You brought up Gideon's question when he asked: "where be all of His miracles...?" The 'why?' was answered in the context of the account. That answer may also go a long way in explaining our own situation.

Blessing,
William

[Updated on: Wed, 21 March 2012 09:59]


I want to believe!
Re: Where have all the people gone... [message #8882 is a reply to message #8881 ] Wed, 21 March 2012 11:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
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william wrote on Wed, 21 March 2012 08:57



Another thing is that we've kinda focused on the lack of faith being the primary reason for our lack, with the question of God's sovereignty running a close second, but another major reason may well be the sinfulness of the Church in general.

In each of the dispensations you can see the ebb & flow of the supernatural miracles mirroring the spiritual condition of God's people. Sin being the prime cause.

You brought up Gideon's question when he asked: "where be all of His miracles...?" The 'why?' was answered in the context of the account. That answer may also go a long way in explaining our own situation.



Exactly! That is what I was seeing as I re-read the account...

The chapter(6, Judges) starts off by stating that the children of Israel did evil in the sight of God,(btw: that's part of the problem today with the 'church', people act like God doesn't SEE the evil.)and yet today we (the church) have false 'prophets/pastors/teachers' telling all that will listen that the future is rosie, the best is yet to come...Repentance? Are you kidding? This is a 'christian' nation, we are the chosen ones...one nation under God, ect. ect. "SIN? You're just being judgemental and critical."

Mean time we have Christians, who KNOW better, questioning God with the same questions..."Where are the miracles? Give me proof and more proof!"

It was suggested that we go to "our spiritual mentors or advisers" for advice concerning apostles and miracles(signs and wonders manifesting from those claiming to be an apostle) and that we should avoid 'risky faith' situations(a moratorium of death door faith experiences). Okay, I have, and my Spiritual adviser(The Holy Spirit/God's Word) encourages me to trust HIM with ALL my heart...not to lean unto my own understanding...to have faith in GOD...and walk free from fear...to boldly speak HIS WORD to all that will listen...to be humble and yet strong...to BELIEVE.


Moratorium on trusting God in situations that could results in death? I DON'T THINK SO...

By His Grace and Mercy, I will trust Him in ALL things. Thank You Jesus...Lord grant us (The Body of Christ) grace to repent, to return to our first love, to hear your voice in these end times, to live the lives you've called us to.

[Updated on: Wed, 21 March 2012 11:34]


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: Where have all the people gone... [message #8883 is a reply to message #8882 ] Wed, 21 March 2012 15:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JWBTI  is currently offline JWBTI
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Amen !
James and William.... good examples.

Abraham had the right attitude towards the promises that God had made him !

20  He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
Romans 4:20-21 (KJV)


Let us be fully persuaded in the things that God has promised us also !
(Eph 4, 1 Corth 12-14 Mk 16 The Book of Acts)

Blessings


Ron
Re: Where have all the people gone... [message #8884 is a reply to message #8834 ] Thu, 22 March 2012 09:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
wishing34  is currently offline wishing34
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Greetings,

I see you guys waving the flag of "no compromise" with respect to
my suggestion to modify/compromise the faith message with a moratorium
on death's door faith attempts - until we figure out why we do not see
the supernatural as promised (such as the missing apostles.)


Have you forgotten that we have all lived with and accepted
compromise for decades because of the missing apostles?

-----

Because there are no apostles all of Christendom must come up with some
form of church governance that does not need apostles.

In our case we had/have "man in authority" - a form of church governance
this is actually explicitly forbidden by the Lord in Matt 20:25-26.
We have operated with this error from the beginning.

We discussed this before at the following link:

http://overcomersonline.com/FUDforum2/index.php?t=msg&th =547&start=0&S=1772a9867a2866b73286c2d01fc52d6d

----------

If you want to wave the no compromise flag I think maybe you should waive it
at half mast - or better yet upside down.

I think an upside down flag is the universal symbol to communicate 'we are in distress.'

An upside down flag would be a very appropriate symbol for us to use since we are indeed in distress
since we are missing the promised supernatural as I have described several times in this thread.



My moratorium would indeed be another compromise relating to the missing apostles.

Jman
____________________
At the time of this post . . .
FA, the satellites, the spinoffs,and the FA diaspora have been having church
without apostles for 40 years and 82 days.
Initial start date 1/1/72






Re: Where have all the people gone... [message #8885 is a reply to message #8884 ] Thu, 22 March 2012 09:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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Quote:

I see you guys waving the flag of "no compromise" with respect to
my suggestion to modify/compromise the faith message with a moratorium
on death's door faith attempts - until we figure out why we do not see
the supernatural as promised (such as the missing apostles.)



I don't know how many ways or how many times we have to say it but --the SUPERNATURAL IS NOT MISSING FROM OUR LIVES!!!

Secondly, I haven't really missed the 'missing apostles'. I have nothing to do with calling them, nothing to do with sending them and I'm not in the least bit stressed about the lack of one in my life! Maybe you know something I don't and could enlighten us as to how our lives would be different if one happened on the scene?

Quote:

Have you forgotten that we have all lived with and accepted
compromise for decades because of the missing apostles?



??

Quote:

Because there are no apostles all of Christendom must come up with some
form of church governance that does not need apostles.



Only if one accepts your premise that apostles, prophets, evangelists, and pastor/teachers, IS the authority structure. I do NOT.

Quote:

My moratorium would indeed be another compromise relating to the missing apostles.


How am I compromising when I have nothing to do with a supposed lack of apostles? How am I compromising when I have nothing to do with the lack of any gift???

Blessings,
William


I want to believe!
Re: Where have all the people gone... [message #8886 is a reply to message #8885 ] Thu, 22 March 2012 11:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
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william wrote on Thu, 22 March 2012 08:52


Secondly, I haven't really missed the 'missing apostles'.



There's a saying that states that we don't really appreciate what we have until it's gone. Well, I guess the same would/could be true concerning apostles, if we never had or experienced them then I suppose we can't really 'miss' them.


Jman, it sometimes appears to me that you are a bit like the character Rip Van Winkle, you seem to 'sleep' through many of our discussions. We just went through a discussion on a book about The Harlot Church System last summer and fall, where everyone except you participated. I think most everyone agrees that there is a major problem with the institutional church system of man. Take time to read the thread and get a feel for what some of us believe before painting everyone with the broad brush of "compromising'...


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: Where have all the people gone... [message #8887 is a reply to message #8834 ] Thu, 22 March 2012 19:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
wishing34  is currently offline wishing34
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Greetings,

We all have compromised when we allowed "man in authority"
to be our church governance because it is unscriptural.

This compromise happened because of the lack of apostles.

This compromise applies to each of us - all of us.

----

{{{ Response to William's words indicating that he does not miss apostles
as if apostles would not make a major difference - response left out because, William,
I do not think you really mean to say that }}}


---

I do not believe that there should be any authority (except Jesus of course)
in the church. See the link above in my previous post.
I explained this to be my position in that previous link a long time ago.


======================
James said:
>>There's a saying that states that we don't really appreciate what we have until it's gone.

>>Well, I guess the same would/could be true concerning apostles, if we never had or

>>experienced them then I suppose we can't really 'miss' them.



Complements to James.

==========================

William said:
>> SUPERNATURAL IS NOT MISSING FROM OUR LIVES!!!


But the promised supernatural is missing (apostles, I Cor 12 gifts of miracles and healings).

Jesus said this is how I operate a church ....

And what He said is not how it works for us.


Jman
____________________
At the time of this post . . .
FA, the satellites, the spinoffs,and the FA diaspora have been having church
without apostles for 40 years and 82 days.
Initial start date 1/1/72






Re: Where have all the people gone... [message #8888 is a reply to message #8887 ] Thu, 22 March 2012 22:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mark  is currently offline Mark
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I don't see why there has to be apostles. And we have (I have) and (I'm sure others have) seen miracles/gifts operating at times. I've seen both happen through me in my life. Not the prayer of faith type but the anointing type. Not in large measure I hasten to add (past tense) but they have been there.

Gifts and annointings and apostolic gifts/ministries have come and gone in various movements and revivals over the years. There is nothing that says everything has to be here all the time.

For whatever it is worth I think apostles/prophets are coming in great numbers around the world. Thats another subject.

Your point if I understand you correctly is that because we don't have these ministries/gifts operating in our midst we should be much more careful about how we exercise our faith. Because the senior ministry aspect of oversight is missing. It looks to me that while I totally disagree with you your heart is in the right place.

I don't think having apostles would make any difference. More anointing more miracles etc. Absolutely. But the issue of having faith for answers & healing is not going to change. People still have to learn how to use it. The anointing doesn't take the place of faith. We would still have people making mistakes with faith maybe stupid ones. Because the only way to learn is to do it.

My apologies in advance if I'm just repeating what others have said. It has been a long thread and I've read it in a disjointed way. I couldn't always keep up. Which is why I haven't commented.


I find I always have to write something on a steamed mirror....
Re: Where have all the people gone... [message #8889 is a reply to message #8834 ] Fri, 23 March 2012 08:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
wishing34  is currently offline wishing34
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Greetings,

Mark thanks for posting.

Well I am absolutely stunned.

This makes 4 of you who think having apostles would not make any difference and
the need for apostles is not seen ( you do not miss them).



William and Mark have expressed her thoughts as such.

James and JWBTI agreed by their silence -you guys are never silent when
you see something important that you think is an error.


Jman
____________________
At the time of this post . . .
FA, the satellites, the spinoffs,and the FA diaspora have been having church
without apostles for 40 years and 83 days.
Initial start date 1/1/72






Re: Where have all the people gone... [message #8890 is a reply to message #8889 ] Fri, 23 March 2012 08:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mark  is currently offline Mark
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This makes 4 of you who think having apostles would not make any difference and
the need for apostles is not seen ( you do not miss them).


No you're reading too much into that. Speaking for myself I think apostles are totally nessecary. I think they would make a tremendous difference in the life of the church. But I was speaking concerning faith and getting answers to prayer.


I find I always have to write something on a steamed mirror....
Re: Where have all the people gone... [message #8891 is a reply to message #8889 ] Fri, 23 March 2012 08:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
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wishing34 wrote on Fri, 23 March 2012 07:28



James and JWBTI agreed by their silence -you guys are never silent when
you see something important that you think is an error.




Silence? I've made 10 posts/comments on this thread that William started on the lack of signs and wonders; and I believe we need apostles in the Body of Christ today...BUT they aren't present and it's not my calling to 'call and anoint' them so we press on. Still believing and trusting God, exercising what He has given(for me, encouragement, exhortation,and helps.)


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: Where have all the people gone... [message #8892 is a reply to message #8834 ] Fri, 23 March 2012 09:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
wishing34  is currently offline wishing34
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Greetings Mark,

Thanks for posting.


My call for a moratorium is not because we're missing senior ministry.


I call for moratorium because we experience what should be impossible - the Bible
itself does not always work for us -

Examples are:
missing promised apostles
missing promised ICor 12 power gifts
missing occasional instant, visible manifestations (no specific promise for this but it naturally is expected to be part of the faith and healing messages)

================================

Since we are a people to whom sometimes the Bible does not work - I call for a moratorium on what I have termed "risky faith"

Jman
____________________
At the time of this post . . .
FA, the satellites, the spinoffs,and the FA diaspora have been having church
without apostles for 40 years and 83 days.
Initial start date 1/1/72






Re: Where have all the people gone... [message #8893 is a reply to message #8891 ] Fri, 23 March 2012 09:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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Hey guys,

I don't like to push something that I haven't had time to check out but in this case I'm going to make an exception.

I've only read the first chapter but so far this is a good read and it may turn out to be a great read.

The reason I want to post the link right away is because Kindle is offering it free right now and it is subject to go up to the regular price at any time.

All you need is the free kindle reader for your PC from Amazon (sign up and download the reader if you don't have an account already) and you can download this free ebook on miracles.

Here is the link:

http://www.amazon.com/Journey-Hard-Side-Miracles-ebook/dp/B0 04ZZT4BM%3FSubscriptionId%3D1GVBN9WWNVXC5DBPE502%26tag%3Dkiq -free-20%26linkCode%3Dxm2%26camp%3D2025%26creative%3D165953% 26creativeASIN%3DB004ZZT4BM

Get it and we can talk about it later!

Blessings,
William


I want to believe!
Re: Where have all the people gone... [message #8894 is a reply to message #8834 ] Fri, 23 March 2012 09:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
wishing34  is currently offline wishing34
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Greetings,

Mark,

Since I am pretty sure you will come back to this thread
which means you will not miss this message.

I just wanted to say that I like and respect you on this forum.


Jman
____________________
At the time of this post . . .
FA, the satellites, the spinoffs,and the FA diaspora have been having church
without apostles for 40 years and 83 days.
Initial start date 1/1/72






Re: Where have all the people gone... [message #8895 is a reply to message #8834 ] Fri, 23 March 2012 15:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
wishing34  is currently offline wishing34
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Greetings,

In the pharmakeia thread last fall and in this thread
I have noticed things devolving more and more into strawman arguments,
gamesmanship, forum strategies, - like are common on other forums.

I find unless I am passionate about a particular topic it is not worth the frustration
to deal with it all. I do not have any new passionate topics that I can think of.


So I have decided to take a break from participating in the forum - at least for a while.

I need to focus on other stuff anyway.

Goodbye for now and please e-mail me if an apostle shows up.

James: Rip Van Winkle is ready for a long snooze Smile

Jman

____________________
At the time of this post . . .
FA, the satellites, the spinoffs,and the FA diaspora have been having church
without apostles for 40 years and 83 days.
Initial start date 1/1/72






Re: Where have all the people gone... [message #8896 is a reply to message #8895 ] Fri, 23 March 2012 16:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mark  is currently offline Mark
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I have some material here on tape about apostles I was going to post. I think you'd find it interesting. Its on tape and I have to get it digitalized. Couple of weeks maybe. I'll send you a note.


I find I always have to write something on a steamed mirror....
Re: Where have all the people gone... [message #8897 is a reply to message #8896 ] Fri, 23 March 2012 16:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mark  is currently offline Mark
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You all know that I have presented a case against the commonly held position that the ministries listed in Eph 4 are 'offices'. I think they are ministry gifts--not 'offices'.

Where is that? I'd like to go and have a look.


I find I always have to write something on a steamed mirror....
Re: Where have all the people gone... [message #8898 is a reply to message #8895 ] Sun, 25 March 2012 11:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
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wishing34 wrote on Fri, 23 March 2012 14:08


In the pharmakeia thread last fall and in this thread
I have noticed things devolving more and more into strawman arguments,
gamesmanship, forum strategies,
- like are common on other forums.



If presenting scripture and encouraging people to totally trust Jesus and His Holy WORD in matters of daily living makes one appear to be using "forum strategies, gamesmanship, or making strawman arguments" then consider me as such. But though I may lack in formal education and am a simple man, I have learned from experience(both my own and the observing of others for 60 years, plus what is recorded in The Bible for our instruction and learning.) that if I don't stand on God's Word 100%, then I'll wind up compromising and falling for whatever Satan presents as wisdom and truth.

"There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death." Proverbs 14:12

THIS is TRUTH, THIS is WISDOM !...GOD'S WORD!

"Trust in The LORD with ALL thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding."Proverbs 3:5

So what have we been presented with? Words of encouragement to strenghten our faith, or an argument that undermines the clear teachings of Jesus to trust Him and Him alone? A moratorium on 'death door experiences', 'risky faith'? Does this line up with God's Word? Is this wisdom from above?

I'm NOT coming against Jman the person, I AM coming against the idea and suggestion he is presenting that could plant seeds of doubt and fear in people and goes against what was purchased at Calvary by Jesus our LORD.

"Who His own self bare our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed."I Peter 2:24


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: Where have all the people gone... [message #8899 is a reply to message #8897 ] Sun, 25 March 2012 18:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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Mark wrote on Fri, 23 March 2012 15:25

You all know that I have presented a case against the commonly held position that the ministries listed in Eph 4 are 'offices'. I think they are ministry gifts--not 'offices'.

Where is that? I'd like to go and have a look.


I'll have to find it, it's been awhile.

In a nutshell: The bible presents us with two methods that God uses to mature His Church:

1) Elders (overseers) and 2) Gifts (for ministry).

Elders rule while the ministry gifts are for ministry.

Ministry gifts (1Cor 12, Eph 4, for instance) are given to individuals on a personal level for the edification of the body of Christ.

Ministry gifts do not convey leadership on anyone. All of us (men and women) are called to minister. Every person has a gift or gifts and will eventually need to give an account to God for what they have done with those gifts.

The eldership are charged with the oversight of the assembly. Naturally they will also have ministry gifts, but in addition to those gifts they will be responsible for the leadership of the body. If an elder moves to Indiana from Alabama, he doesn't have elder responsibilities in Indiana, he only carries with him the ministry gifts that he has been given.

Ministry gifts are a personal transaction between God and the individual. If a teacher moves to another location he is still a teacher wherever he goes. Ideally, the eldership in the new city should recognize the person's gift and act accordingly but if they don't this doesn't mean the person loses that gift. That gift has been given to him by God and no matter where he finds himself, he should seek opportunities to use that gift. (Same applies for all of the gifts.)

Elders have local responsibility only, while ministry is trans-local.

Most organizations have lost this concept. First, they assume that anyone with a gift is automatically endowed with leadership responsibilities in the Church. It's the same old clergy and laity doctrine presented in a different garb. The clergy, or those with gifts, they rule. The laity, well, they don't have any gifts (other than the gift of giving, and I'm not referring to a supernatural gift here!).

This causes, as you can imagine, many problems. You've got leaders (mostly called pastors in protestant circles) that are shifted around at the whim of the bishop's board. Women (until recently) were excluded from exercising any of the ministry gifts because, as they conclude, a woman, with the gift to teach, for instance, would not fit into their paradigm.

In fact, in this scenario, there are no women apostles, (God can't send a women even if He wants to) no prophets, (this presents a bit of a problem for them because prophetesses are mentioned in the Bible--a contradiction that different churches have dealt with in different ways), no evangelists, no pastors and no teachers (after all, to them ALL of these gifts are leadership offices to be limited to men only.)

What do you think?

Blessings,
William

[Updated on: Sun, 25 March 2012 18:19]


I want to believe!
Re: Where have all the people gone... [message #8902 is a reply to message #8899 ] Fri, 30 March 2012 19:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mark  is currently offline Mark
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Sorry I didn't get back to you William we had major problems with my dad this last while. For various reasons I am off work right now and it was a blessing in disguise. I've spent a lot of time helping.

I know you wrote extensively on the subject of women in ministry somewhere and I have always intended to get to it but never had time. I'm going to correct that before long. So I'm leaving aside that issue for now.

One question I have is how are elders called? As opposed to those with ministry gifts. I know Paul talked about giving honor to the elders that rule well especially those who . . . word and doctrine. So there seems to be a distinction there.

I'm gong to give some thought to this.


I find I always have to write something on a steamed mirror....
Re: Where have all the people gone... [message #8903 is a reply to message #8902 ] Fri, 30 March 2012 20:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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Mark wrote on Fri, 30 March 2012 18:25

Sorry I didn't get back to you William we had major problems with my dad this last while. For various reasons I am off work right now and it was a blessing in disguise. I've spent a lot of time helping.

I know you wrote extensively on the subject of women in ministry somewhere and I have always intended to get to it but never had time. I'm going to correct that before long. So I'm leaving aside that issue for now.

One question I have is how are elders called? As opposed to those with ministry gifts. I know Paul talked about giving honor to the elders that rule well especially those who . . . word and doctrine. So there seems to be a distinction there.

I'm gong to give some thought to this.



I trust that the Lord will give you wisdom in dealing with your dad!

Concerning the issue of leadership... I totally believe in the concept of leadership in the Church. The jury is still out (in my thinking) as to whether this leadership is a gift or a calling. I'm leaning more toward it not being a gift, but like I said, I haven't really looked at the issue close enough to be definitive one way or the other.

On the other hand, look at your own gifts --if it's teaching, evangelism, or even prophetic-- do these gifts convey any type of a leadership position? Of course others might view your ability to teach, etc., as some form of a leadership mantle, but does it really, from a biblical standpoint, translate into a leadership office?

Blessings,
William

[Updated on: Fri, 30 March 2012 20:44]


I want to believe!
Re: Where have all the people gone... [message #9358 is a reply to message #8884 ] Tue, 05 March 2013 19:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JWBTI  is currently offline JWBTI
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Wishing34 Wrote: Message #8884 March 22,2012

Greetings,

I see you guys waving the flag of "no compromise" with respect to
my suggestion to modify/compromise the faith message with a moratorium
on death's door faith attempts - until we figure out why we do not see
the supernatural as promised (such as the missing apostles.)

------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------

Jman,

Glad to have ya back,

It has been 11 Months and 11 Days since this Post and We are still waving that flag

Of “No Compromise” !

37 For with God nothing shall be impossible.
Luke 1:37 (KJV)


We love U Brother !

Blessings in Jesus Name !


Ron
Re: Where have all the people gone... [message #9359 is a reply to message #9358 ] Tue, 05 March 2013 21:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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Now that's funny!

Isn't it great to be a part of a group of wonderful people like us?

Hey Jman, you know we love you... (and missed you, too!)

Blessings,
William


I want to believe!
Re: Where have all the people gone... [message #9360 is a reply to message #8834 ] Tue, 05 March 2013 21:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
wishing34  is currently offline wishing34
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Hi JWBTI

I am not actually back. Tom was just interesting.
I am not even going to "back and forth" with him.




Jman






Re: Where have all the people gone... [message #9361 is a reply to message #9360 ] Wed, 06 March 2013 09:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
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wishing34 wrote on Tue, 05 March 2013 21:23

Hi JWBTI

I am not actually back. Tom was just interesting.
I am not even going to "back and forth" with him.




Jman


Shucks! Jman, don't you find us interesting? LOL

Stick around, you don't have to take up permanent residence, just pitch your tent and hang for a while. We're hoping that sometimes in the next few months Tom is going to share his wisdom on what he believes true faith is(as opposed to the flaws, I guess, in what he perceives "the faith message " teaches (btw: There is a difference in the 'faith message/message of faith' that most here believes and lives, and 'the Word of Faith<WOF>' as is taught by so many today,) ...meanwhile we can be sharing whatever The Lord gives us.

I know! I KNOW! We still don't got no apostles, but we do got love for each other. Smile


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: Where have all the people gone... [message #9790 is a reply to message #9361 ] Sat, 21 September 2013 19:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Marilyn Crow  is currently offline Marilyn Crow
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james & all.

`We still don`t have no Apostles.`

Having been brought up in the Apostolic movement/denomination in the `50`s & `6o`s, I`ve had a different experience. The movement came from the Welsh revival in 1905 & spread to other countries. However I think it never really got going in the USA.

I was brought up with the `5-fold,` ministries & looking back the immediate difference of an Apostle was the depth in his ministry of expounding on the word, prayer & revelation that would come over time.

Now this was in a structured setting, so today as many of us are not there I still believe, as you do that Christ has His Apostles receiving revelation of Him that will bring the Body of Christ to maturity. We may not see them but as they teach others we will be recipients of that further revelation.


Marilyn C
Re: Where have all the people gone... [message #9794 is a reply to message #9790 ] Mon, 23 September 2013 09:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
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When I said "We still don't got no apostles", I was referencing a earlier discussion we'd had a few years ago(Jman) about true/real apostles and the lack (in american 'churches'). There's no shortage of people 'claiming' to be apostles here, all one has to do is tune to the 'religious channels ' of a TV or computer...

Not only apostles, we got bucket loads of profit prophets as well, saying "it's all good", "the best is yet to come", "we are God's chosen nation", ect. Puke

Meanwhile, this rudderless ship (the misguided, institutional religious system of man) is tossed about in whatever direction the waves take it, and few even see the impending danger. Why does the Titanic come to mind here? (Rev. 3:17)


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: Where have all the people gone... [message #9795 is a reply to message #9794 ] Mon, 23 September 2013 20:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Marilyn Crow  is currently offline Marilyn Crow
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So true james, counterfeit Apostles, Prophets etc... Having read a little about Hobart Freeman on this site I believe he would have had an Apostolic calling.

And about those `waves,` I think you would agree that we in the Body of Christ have yet to come through some of those. (Eph. 4: 14) Then being mindful as you posted about our attitude of `love,` & us having been recipients of great truths, it is a challenge to `speak the truth in love,` building on what people know of the truth.

Thus I appreciate this site as you have a variety of topics & allow others to have a go. Thank you all.


Marilyn C
Re: Where have all the people gone... [message #9797 is a reply to message #9795 ] Tue, 24 September 2013 04:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gary  is currently offline Gary
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Quote:

Having read a little about Hobart Freeman on this site I believe he would have had an Apostolic calling.



It may of been possible. But this man stated the Lord called him to be a teacher to the body of Christ. If you ever heard any of his sermons you would understand why he claimed this.

The anointing of God was very evident on this man, but as far as I remember he never functioned in the same function as the Apostles.

My take on a true Biblical Apostle is this:

An Apostle who has the calling will mirror the ministry of the NT Apostles. He will have the gift to heal, raise the dead, cast out demons, establish churches, etc. etc.

We would see the same mighty acts of God operating through the man as we see it in the New Testament. At least that is how I view the calling of an Apostle.

A visible miracle never occurred under Hobart Freemans ministry (like the Apostles in the New Testament), even though he prayed for people that were healed or delivered from demons, he mainly taught the Bible by the Spirit of God.


Gary



Re: Where have all the people gone... [message #9810 is a reply to message #9797 ] Wed, 25 September 2013 01:11 Go to previous message
Marilyn Crow  is currently offline Marilyn Crow
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I agree Gary about H. Freeman being a Bible teacher from the notes I`ve seen on this site. I look forward also to listening to his teaching on the tapes.

I`ve written some notes from (Apostle) William Rowe (`60`s Melbourne, Australia). He & his family came out from England, sent from the main church to lead the work here in Australia. These notes are from his book, `One Lord, One Faith.`
Here is a quick overview.

THE SIGNS OF APOSTLESHIP.
The Power Sign.
The Passion Sign.
The Vision Sign.
The Virtue Sign.

THE SEAL OF APOSTLESHIP
Pioneering.
Building-up.
Administrating.

THE SERVICE OF APOSTLESHIP
A Vital & Authentic Witness.
A Spiritual & Authoritative Ministry.
A General & Affectionate oversight.
Supernatural & Apostolic Activity.

I have only written the first part on `The Signs of Apostleship.`
If you would like the others I will write them out for you.
In the light of these notes it would be interesting to hear what you see of Hobart Freeman & his ministry. I couldn`t seem to get it as an attachment so just cut & pasted.


The Signs of Apostleship

`Truly the signs of an Apostle were wrought among you
in all patience, in signs, & wonders, & mighty deeds.`
(2 Cor. 12: 12)

Signs are the visible indications of invisible realities. Cause has its effect; substance has its sign. Signs are the words of a special language. Words indicate hidden thought; signs point to unseen realities. It is imperative to learn the vocabulary & grammar of the sign language with which we are dealing. One sign may require another for its identification & confirmation. The power- sign for instance may have a divine or Satanic origin (Acts 2: 43. 2 Thess. 2: 9) So with the power – sign God gives a love – sign of divine purpose. The one identifies & confirms the other. Yet one may be so taken up with signs as to miss the substance. Others may have spiritually mastered the sign – language & have passed on to a keen & certain apprehension by faith of the things of God.

To the initiated a single little bird may give in advance a sure knowledge of a glorious summer on the way. We speak of a `straw in the wind.` We learn by straws, but we can pass on to know the direction of the wind without them. The right understanding of signs & the abilities of faith unveil for us the unseen realities of God. We have found that Apostleship is needed to day & that it is scripturally provided for. Now we seek to interpret correctly the signs.

THE POWER SIGN.

`....Signs & wonders, & mighty deeds` (2 Cor. 12: 12)

The Power – sign is one of the Apostolic signs. We see these grand evidences in the history of the early Church. We dare to believe that `Jesus Christ (is) the same yesterday, & today, & forever.` (Heb. 13: Cool At the same time we note in our study of the scripture that outstanding power – signs amongst the Apostleship in the New Testament were manifested through the instrumentality of a few of its members – mainly Peter & Paul. As we have seen already, not all Apostles are gifted in the same manner nor degree of richness. There is James & an Epaphroditus as well as a Peter & a Paul. They are equally called if not equally used in the same way. This we may expect today.

As the Lord in His sovereignty may determine so the power will flow through this or that member in varying degree at different times. We magnify the Lord for many mighty demonstrations of His power through the Apostleship throughout the years. Progressive Christian & Apostolic experience is always stretching out for more.

Our standards are always higher than our reach. As we look at the Church in the Acts of the Apostles in full flood of supernatural power we find a further challenge to our faith.
It is not only a challenge to our faith in the Apostleship; it is a challenge to every ministry, to every member & not to one Church alone but to all Churches. Is any an Evangelist? Then he is confronted with the supernatural ministry of Philip in Acts 8: 6 – 7. Is any an Elder? Then before him comes the necessity of a supernatural power as indicated in James 5: 14 – 16. Is any a simple believer in Christ? Then the sweeping supernatural signs of Mark 16: 17 – 18 are required. Of course, the same principle applies, that individuals will differ in the measure of supernatural giftedness. The challenge of the need of a greater measure of the supernatural comes to us all – Apostles......Evangelists.......Elders.......& every disciple of Christ. We look for a further latter-day outpouring of the Holy Spirit. The Lord is preparing vessels, `not a few,` of all types & sizes. Glorious as the present blessing has been it should be but an earnest of what is to come.

THE PASSION SIGN

There is such a thing as the sign of Apostolic passion. Power is not the sole criterion of Apostleship. There is a heavy enduement of divine passion in the call. Perhaps one has to progress further in the mastery of the sign – language to appreciate this. To the less spiritual Corinthians Paul contends for his Apostleship & emphasises the power – sign, but to the Christlike Philippians he declares, `...I have you in my heart...` & `How greatly I long after you....in the bowels of Jesus Christ.` (Phil. 1 : 7 – Cool Doubtless they understood. This is not a vapid sentiment but a mighty function of love that brings to birth divine purposes in the Church of Christ. With what burning passion he contends for the Gentile believers against the legalizers. As a hen gathereth her brood under her wings so the Apostle covers the flock under his care.

This great Apostolic heart has a surge of passion overflowing for Israel. `For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh; who are Israelites....` (Rom. 9: 3 – 4) This is a sign of true Apostleship to the eye of faith. Think of such burning words as `I bear in my body the marks of the Lord Jesus;` `I count not my life dear` & `I am ready to be offered.` he was burnt – up for the Lord & His people! He was a burnt – offering on the altar of God. His life seemed as tinder in the matchless but awful blaze of divine love & purpose. Whether he looked up to the Head, or around at the members of His Body, or out on the lost, the fire of Apostolic passion consumed him. Apostleship is fixed with the sign of passion.

THE VISION SIGN

`Am I not an Apostle?.... have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord?` (1 Cor. 9: 1)

Undoubtedly the Apostle was meeting the objections of the carnal Corinthians respecting his call. He does do again in the same letter to the same people. (1 Cor. 15: 7 – 9) This apparent requirement that Paul must needs have personally seen the Lord in the days of His flesh, in order to verify his Apostleship, is by no means a proof of a divine condition. Paul goes on to say in the next sentence, `If I be not an Apostle unto others, yet doubtless I am to you.` (1 Cor. 9:2) Or as much as to say, `If that is the carping criticism of others, it cannot affect my Apostleship to you. You are the seal of it! Nevertheless I have seen the Lord.`

Whether or not corporally or in vision – probably both – makes no matter, the glory of the Person of Christ had broken over his soul in a mighty conquering manner. `He has seen the Lord in the way.` (Acts 9: 27) The effect lasting through the years drew from the heart of the Apostle before Agrippa, the exclamation, `I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision.` (Acts 26: 19) It was a heavenly vision of the ascended, glorified Head from whom He was a Gift to the Church that Paul relied, `When He ascended up on high, He ... gave gifts unto men...He gave some, Apostles....` (Eph. 4: 8 – 11) He had the glory – sign of His commission. An Apostle must have the sign of the heavenly vision. The heavenly vision is the throbbing theme of Apostolic witness, fellowship & service. Burning ourselves – we shall burn it into some. The depths of Apostleship can be measured by the substance, radiance & insistence of its vision. We are jealous that no diversionary interests shall dim the wondrous vision of the glorious Head.

THE VIRTUE SIGN

As power & passion are hand in hand so vision & virtue walk together. Notice the sequence in the following sentence. `Truly the signs of an Apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, & wonders, & mighty deeds.` (2 Cor. 12: 12) Fancy ` patience` before `wonders, & mighty deeds!` We had never thought of patience as a sign. The virtue of patience. But it puts us on the track of the virtue sign. If the Apostleship meeds anything, it needs patience. It is a divine virtue. `The God of all patience.` Without patience we can, as an Apostleship, squander what we have received. We can fail to finish the course. Then, what of the virtue of faithfulness? In Hebrews 3: 1 – 2 Christ Who is spoken of as `the Apostle,` was declared to be `faithful to Him that appointed Him.` The true Apostles were men that were faithful to the end. The Apostles, the messengers, the `sent – ones` finished their circuit in the perfect will of God at the feet of the glorious Christ Who sent them.

Patience & faithfulness are lovely jewels set side by side. Humility is a virtue of an Apostleship that magnifies the Master; it is another sign. Neither as being `Lords over God`s heritage...` What is more wonderful than the meekness & humility of the Apostle – Christ? That is the spirit! Listen to true Apostleship! `Have I committed an offence in abasing myself?` (2 Cor. 11: 7) How is humbles us when we think of the exalted ministry of this servant of God. What of this? `Ye have reigned as kings....God hath set forth us the Apostles last....` (1 Cor. 4: 8 – 9) All these & many other such virtue signs have their base in holiness, the great virtue sign, `Holy Apostles & Prophets....` (Eph. 3: 5)

Power needs passion to balance & control it. So does vision demand virtue. The supernatural calls for the practical in both cases. Vision must be accompanied by virtue for `Without holiness no man can see God.`

Let us then pray for a greater world – wide manifestation & recognition of Apostleship & for its development in power & grace. It is Christ`s own personal gift & appointment.`






[Updated on: Wed, 25 September 2013 01:18]


Marilyn C
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