Deeper Life Women
Home » Theological Doctrine » Christian Ethics » The Principles of Nonresistance vs our Rights
The Principles of Nonresistance vs our Rights [message #3820] Sun, 19 October 2008 14:57 Go to next message
james  is currently offline james
Messages: 1932
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL
Senior Member
I'd like to introduce a thread discussing the principles of nonresistance as taught in The Word; verses what our rights are as given us in the constitution and readily acceptable in our society.

When do we turn the other cheek passively, and when are we allowed to take an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth?

What is a christians position concerning war; what do we do if drafted by the military to defend our nation against foreign threats coming against us? Is being a conscientious objector really being a coward?

What is our view as christians in reguards to lawsuits? Our rights as citizens allow us to have our 'day in court'. In fact we're encouraged to use 'due process' to settle matters of dispute.

Our constitution gives us the right to bear arms, and the right to defend our lives and property.; to respond with force when threatened....Should we? Is there any situation when taking a life is justified before God?

What is our duty as U.S.citizens to obey our leaders, and how does obeying all authority work when we're to obey God rather than man? How do we reconcile patriotism with being members of another kingdom?

We all know the many scriptures on this subject; many spoken directly by Jesus. I'm not going to refer to all them because, like I said, we know them. But just to paraphrase a few:
Blessed are the peacemakers; resist not evil but turn the other cheek; whosoever sues you for your coat, give him your cloak too; Love your enemies; Thy shalt not kill; and many, many more...

According to mainstream thinking in America, including almost all churches; the principles taught by Jesus of nonresistance are not meant to be taken literaly. Most believe it is our responsibility and duty to exercise our 'rights', defend ourselves, bear arms, serve in the military, utilize our court system, and teach our children to do the same.

I remember a lot of what we were taught by HEF 25-30 years ago; but is it something that was taken to extreme, should we re-examine our positions on this, or is it just as applicable today as when it was taught?


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: The Principles of Nonresistance vs our Rights [message #3841 is a reply to message #3820 ] Mon, 20 October 2008 11:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
Messages: 1188
Registered: January 2006
Senior Member
Administrator
And here lies a wonderful thread with no responses while the debate rages over what constitutes heresy... <grin>

Here is what I believe James.

1. Jesus is to be taken literally... (Unless you think you can get rid of sin in the heart by cutting off your hand!).

2. Jesus, in referring to "turning the other cheek" and "resist not evil", is speaking of our personal responsibilities when we are confronted with a personal attack.

3. When the issue goes beyond a personal attack and others are threatened, we are to lay down our lives in defending those under attack.

4. Defending those under attack does not give us liberty to kill (at least not without consequence!) those involved in the aggression. (See Jesus' response to the sons of thunder when they wanted to call down fire from heaven.)

5. You already know my view concerning the kingdoms of this world and our relationship to them.

6. An eye for an eye is not a valid response for the Christian (at least not in this present dispensation... we may be required to weld the rod in future administrations! <grin>

Blessings,
William


I want to believe!
Re: The Principles of Nonresistance vs our Rights [message #3853 is a reply to message #3841 ] Mon, 20 October 2008 12:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
Messages: 1932
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL
Senior Member
Yeah William, I thought I had waited until the 'Jesus only/ onesness' debate was over, but looks like it still has a little life left in it.
I wanted to see what people thought about the principles we were taught and their application to life post-FA. If we (some of us) are going back to re-examine our positions on what we were taught vs what The Word says, then I thought this is an area would be good to go over. Like I said, it seems nobody takes literally Jesus' teachings on nonresistance and defends their lack of obedience by quoting 'their rights' as americans.


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: The Principles of Nonresistance vs our Rights [message #3877 is a reply to message #3841 ] Tue, 21 October 2008 09:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
Messages: 1932
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL
Senior Member
William,( or anyone )

One argument that's been presented to me by a fellow christian in defense of their belief in bearing arms is this. They say not only is it an american 'right' but a God given one as well; quoting John 18:10 where Peter cut off the servant's ear with a sword. His position is that the disciples were armed and defended themselves, thereby setting an example for us to do likewise. I know in Luke 22, Jesus told them to sell their garments and buy a sword, and when He was told they had two, He said "It is enough". Then later in the same chapter we are told that when the servant's ear was cut off, that Jesus touched him and healed him.
I know there are far more examples of nonresistance in the NT than of self defense. And was Peter's actions just so Jesus could show healing again and for it to be recorded? I mean, what was Peter thinking, he'd been taught by Jesus about turning the other cheek and all the examples we read about, including 'thou shalt not kill'. Yet he's swinging a sword at a man's head? Was this action just to fullfill God's plan?
I shared how in my life I have experienced both positions, first as a unbeliever I carried a gun and was willing to use it, should the need ever arose. After coming to know Jesus and learning to trust Him for everything including protection, I saw no need for carrying a weapon. And in obeying his teachings, I came to believe that for me, if I trusted in Him, then I'd have nothing to fear...that He'd give His angels charge over me, to keep me in ALL my ways. That NO weapon formed against me would prosper. And He's done just that for the last 28 years, and I can honestly say, that I walk without fear, not because I'm a bad(donkey), but because Ps. 91 is real and true... And I believe it to be according to His Word.
His reply was, yeah but what about if you are faced with the situation where you're looking down the barrel of a .44 magnum, then what'll you do? I said, you know bro, I could say all kinds of big swelling words now, but at that time I'd find out an important truth, do I really have faith, if it's real or not....period. That protect in Ps.91 is a promise to "He that DWELLETH in the secret place of The Most High..." My life's goal is to abide there, all day everyday, if I do, then a .44 magnum is the last thing to concern me.
I don't see owning a firearm as sin, I just don't see a christian carrying or using one for defense, as obedience to Jesus' teachings on nonresistance.
Have I become unbalanced in my convictions and zeal to follow The Lord?


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: The Principles of Nonresistance vs our Rights [message #3878 is a reply to message #3877 ] Tue, 21 October 2008 11:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
grandom  is currently offline grandom
Messages: 404
Registered: October 2007
Senior Member
James

In mho the answers to all your questions are really quite simple. Being the simple man I am,do we believe the sermon on the mount as Jesus taught it? Or do we add what if`s because maybe Jesus didn't understand what life now days would be like?

As to the justification of bearing arms because the disciples had swords, Ever try to clean a fish without a knife? Pretty hard to do. I would imagine a 357 would do a pretty messy job now days.

I would like to include a scripture (imagine that) 2Pet 1:4 "Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises:that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature having escaped the corruption that is in the world. Partakers of the divine nature. Leads me to the wrist bands that were back when ever they came out .WWJD. What would Jesus do. Not what we think he would do but what would He do. Do we have enough of the divine nature to know what Jesus would do? When we cut some one off in traffic and they give us the single digit salute what is our reaction?. Is the devil under our feet or is he riding on top of our head? Were suppose to be filled with the Holy Spirit, not the spirt of rebellion, or retaliation or you name it. No were supposed to be filled with the Holy Spirit. How many of us can walk into a room and instantly people know a man of God has entered the room.I dare say not many. Hasnt happened to me yet. We are still so worldly even though we profess to have the Holy Spirit.

So as you can see the grandom is radical in another belief.
Re: The Principles of Nonresistance vs our Rights [message #3881 is a reply to message #3877 ] Wed, 22 October 2008 11:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
Messages: 1932
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL
Senior Member
That's more along the lines of what I was thinking. I don't see it having anything to do with filleting fish? I wondered if there was an OT prophesy that spoke of this and Jesus was doing it to fullfill the prophesy. There are a lot of things done just for the purpose of fullfilling OT prophesy. Like when both of the men who were crucified with Jesus had their legs broken; but with Jesus they stuck a spear into His side, to fullfill scripture...John 19:36-37 " For these things were done, that the scripture should be fullfilled, A bone of Him shall not be broken. And again another scripture saith, They shall look on Him whom they pierced."
What makes it even more peculiar is that He said that, knowing they already had two swords. That's why I thought it might be foretold in the OT...but I haven't been able to find it.
Well, I'm not going to bog down on it, I just hate it when someone asks me something from scripture that I don't really know or am able to explain, especially when they're using it for proof text to make a point. Not that my position on nonresistance rest on this point, nor can I see someone being able to use this as justification for carrying swords, err...guns.
Maybe a pocket knife???(to clean fish)


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: The Principles of Nonresistance vs our Rights [message #3886 is a reply to message #3877 ] Wed, 22 October 2008 18:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
grandom  is currently offline grandom
Messages: 404
Registered: October 2007
Senior Member
james wrote on Tue, 21 October 2008 09:43

William,( or anyone )

One argument that's been presented to me by a fellow christian in defense of their belief in bearing arms is this. They say not only is it an american 'right' but a God given one as well; quoting John 18:10 where Peter cut off the servant's ear with a sword. His position is that the disciples were armed and defended themselves, thereby setting an example for us to do likewise.?



Ok I didnt do a very good job of supporting the fillet knife. Confused

Roman soldiers had TWO different swords. They had one big ole honker sword for fighting at a distance (reachable) with the length of that particular sword. They also had a short sword (dagger,knife) for in fighting. My point was that the disciples no doubt at least had a short sword (knife) that they would use for cleaning fish since they were fisherman. So to justify bearing arms because the disciples carried swords imo is not valid.Conjecture could be that they had a big ole honker sword to ward off wild animals I dont know.Btw the greek for sword could also be knife.( Did I twist anything Gary) Laughing

So somehow Hombre and James dont believe the disciples filleted fish. Could be right. After watching the traveling chef go into some of the third world countries and some of the stuff he has eaten maybe they ate them raw or cooked them with the innards in them.

As to why Jesus told them to buy only one sword I havent a clue.
So I`ll continue to fillet with my little (sword)My little old timer dont cut it. A pun intended. Cool
Re: The Principles of Nonresistance vs our Rights [message #5354 is a reply to message #3886 ] Thu, 26 February 2009 10:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
Messages: 1932
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL
Senior Member
Just something I read today concerning firearms; Ruger Arms announced sales increases of 81% in the last quarter and Smith and Wesson also had a jump in sales. In fact Ruger has back orders of 48 million dollars that will take several months to fill. Their stock has increased as more and more investors are buying stock in firearms companies, due to observing the trend by Americans to buy guns in fear of Obama's position on gun control, as well as fear of the state of the country reguarding depression and hard times coming. I thought it interesting...

[Updated on: Thu, 26 February 2009 10:33]


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: The Principles of Nonresistance vs our Rights [message #5370 is a reply to message #5354 ] Thu, 26 February 2009 18:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
GWB  is currently offline GWB
Messages: 713
Registered: March 2008
Location: Louisville, Ky area
Senior Member
Grandom wrote:

We are still so worldly even though we profess to have the Holy Spirit.

GWB writes:

Wow Grandom, there you go again. Crying or Very Sad

Am I REALLY ready for Him to return? Rolling Eyes

GWB Smile

Re: The Principles of Nonresistance vs our Rights [message #5565 is a reply to message #5354 ] Wed, 11 March 2009 16:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
Messages: 1932
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL
Senior Member
Alanbook wrote on Thu, 26 February 2009 16:30

james wrote on Thu, 26 February 2009 10:30

Just something I read today concerning firearms; Ruger Arms announced sales increases of 81% in the last quarter and Smith and Wesson also had a jump in sales. In fact Ruger has back orders of 48 million dollars that will take several months to fill. Their stock has increased as more and more investors are buying stock in firearms companies, due to observing the trend by Americans to buy guns in fear of Obama's position on gun control, as well as fear of the state of the country reguarding depression and hard times coming. I thought it interesting...


Nothing wrong with having a few weapons of mass destruction in your home. Laughing Laughing You know for target practicing. Very Happy






Yesterday, March 10, in south Alabama a man used an AK 47 assault rifle to kill 10 people, then himself. Is it the rifle's fault, of course not; but does or should the constitutions 'rights to bear arms' include the right to carry weapons that can kill many people in a matter of minutes? (some assault rifles can fire hundreds of rounds per minute) For many years assault rifles were banned and illegal in America, but now people can own them.
My point in this is this, several of the people killed were just walking on the street, so they didn't have the chance to protect themselves. And even if a person is armed themselves, it just becomes a shootout with whoever is the best/luckiest shot, or has the most ammo winning. So what does it profit a person to have the right to, and to, bear arms? There's no assurance or insurance that those who chose to go this route, can or will protect their lives or the lives of their families. But God has made this promise unto those who will receive it, "NO weapon formed against thee shall prosper..." ~Isaiah 54:17 and ~Psalms 91 " No evil shall befall you..." One may argue that you can defend yourself and these promises will apply...God doesn't contradict Himself, Jesus taught in ~ Matthew 5:38-44 "To turn the other cheek", to love our enemies.

I believe the time is fast approching where true believers will ONLY survive by applying, 'by faith' God's promises, and standing on them to see HIS deliverance...not stockpiling weapons, money, food....FAITH...The just shall live by his faith.


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: The Principles of Nonresistance vs our Rights [message #5584 is a reply to message #5565 ] Fri, 13 March 2009 15:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Abiding
Messages: 22
Registered: January 2006
Junior Member
james wrote on Wed, 11 March 2009 15:29


My point in this is this, several of the people killed were just walking on the street, so they didn't have the chance to protect themselves. And even if a person is armed themselves, it just becomes a shootout with whoever is the best/luckiest shot, or has the most ammo winning. So what does it profit a person to have the right to, and to, bear arms? There's no assurance or insurance that those who chose to go this route, can or will protect their lives or the lives of their families. But God has made this promise unto those who will receive it, "NO weapon formed against thee shall prosper..." ~Isaiah 54:17 and ~Psalms 91 " No evil shall befall you..." One may argue that you can defend yourself and these promises will apply...God doesn't contradict Himself, Jesus taught in ~ Matthew 5:38-44 "To turn the other cheek", to love our enemies.

I believe the time is fast approching where true believers will ONLY survive by applying, 'by faith' God's promises, and standing on them to see HIS deliverance...not stockpiling weapons, money, food....FAITH...The just shall live by his faith.


Amen! I completely agree with you, James.

A friend of mine said that yesterday she and her husband were in a gun shop/target range place. One of the guys was doing a cash register report just as they were leaving...they'd done $6000 in the last 1 1/2 hours! Apparently, at least in some places, this part of the economy is booming! And I know some Christians are lining up to buy guns, too.

But I praise God for the power that is in the Name of Jesus and for His Word which never fails. Oh how we need to share His Word with those who have no hope except to try to protect themselves with carnal weapons, and we need to be prepared so that we can effectively minister to those the Lord brings across our paths. There are desperate needs out there! I sense a stirring up!





Blessings,
Abiding

"I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus."--Phil 3:12
Re: The Principles of Nonresistance vs our Rights [message #5585 is a reply to message #5584 ] Fri, 13 March 2009 16:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
Messages: 1932
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL
Senior Member
Oh, it's an exploding market, the gun manufacturers are receiving more orders than they can fill. Fear is griping people who profess a faith in God, yet they're afraid to totally trust Him. And unless The Holy Spirit opens their eyes, they'll just look at you like you're Patsy Cline( remember the song, Crazy?)

I have a friend who asked me last weekend to help him unload a sofa he'd bought, in his vehicle was a handgun as well as a sawed off shotgun...He won't listen, yet! I'm praying for him, cause I know full well even if he listened, without it being worked into his heart, it wouldn't profit him.
Living by faith as God has ordained, is SO foolish to the world and the wisdom they think they have. They flat cannot see the ways of God, their eyes are blinded.

There sure are desperate needs; obviously in the world, but also in the 'church'.

[Updated on: Sat, 28 March 2009 09:32]


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: The Principles of Nonresistance vs our Rights [message #5586 is a reply to message #5585 ] Fri, 13 March 2009 20:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
GWB  is currently offline GWB
Messages: 713
Registered: March 2008
Location: Louisville, Ky area
Senior Member
James wrote:

They flat cannot see the ways of God, their eyes are blinded.

GWB writes:

Praise His Holy Name for FA and the Word of Faith. I really do believe it is time to keep our spiritual ears in tune with Him.

"God has not given me a spirit of fear, but of power, love, and a sound mind."

Blessings,

GWB

Be still and know that I am God

Re: The Principles of Nonresistance vs our Rights [message #5687 is a reply to message #5586 ] Mon, 04 May 2009 16:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
Messages: 1932
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL
Senior Member
Someone recently told me that now, not only are the gun companies not able to manufacture enough guns to keep up with the demand, but ammunition demands have surpassed supply. People are hoarding up ammo like never before, one survey found that in one large American city some gun shops had been out of some of the more popular rounds of ammo, for months.

America has became a nation of fearful people, who no longer have confidence in the government to protect them, and feel that their only chance is arming themselves to the hilt. Someone sent me an e-mail saying that the NRA is offering free one year membership to anyone who will join, trying to increase their membership totals, so that when they're lobbying in Washington D.C. the numbers will be more impressive. I know of professing Christians who have been sucked into this mindset...It's fear driven, not some concern about 'rights'. Rather than trust God for protection and apply Ps.91 and other promises, they've joined the majority who think that 'might is right' and 'real men' carry guns....NO! Real men trust God.


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: The Principles of Nonresistance vs our Rights [message #5688 is a reply to message #5687 ] Mon, 04 May 2009 18:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
Messages: 1188
Registered: January 2006
Senior Member
Administrator
You are right. But you are aware that you put yourself in jeopardy just
to suggest that "rights" given under the constitution might not be
synonymous with the perfect will of God for the believer, don't you?

I'm seeing more and more a shift away from any kind of dependence upon
God--for anything!

The new credo -- If we seek first the giverment, they will supply all
our needs according to their riches in old glory... nevermind that there's
not much left over after the votes are bought.

There is a substitute for almost everything now. We have a substitute for
divine healing (our good doctors and hospitals); our finances can be
supplied simply by filling out a form; our food-banks assure us that we'll
never go hungry; public housing can be had for pennies on the dollar
(HUD's section 8)... really, when it comes right down to it, we only need
God for the afterlife!

Thanks, but no thanks. I'll take my chances with His provision &
protection! Might be a little tougher row to hoe, but I think the
longterm benefits are more promising.

1Pe 1:7-9 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of
gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto
praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: Whom having
not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye
rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: Receiving the end of your
faith, even the salvation of your souls.

Blessings,
William

Re: The Principles of Nonresistance vs our Rights [message #5689 is a reply to message #5688 ] Mon, 04 May 2009 20:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
Messages: 1932
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL
Senior Member
The more I witness the actions of those around me, the more thankful and humbled I feel...I can't believe professing Christians can't see the truths of God's Word concerning the principles Jesus told us to live by. I think they just refuse to follow them...

All people who profess Jesus as their Lord and Savior have read the 'sermon on the mount', they know Jesus said to resist not evil but to turn the other cheek; they know He said to love your enemies; they know He said forgive others...All these instructions are given by Jesus, Himself, to CHRISTIANS...It's NOT a gray area...It's written in RED.

I really don't care about the 'bill of rights' or 'the constitution', they come in a distant second to The Word of God. As I've said before, man made rights can not supersede what God has instructed and commanded Christians to do...America gives us the 'right' to marry someone of the same sex(although God has said it is an abomination); The supreme court of America says a woman's body is her own and she can kill the unborn baby if she so choses( do I need to say what God says about that?); The judical system in this country allow citizens to own as many firearms as they want and to take anothers life if they feel their life is threatened( God says when we trust in Him that no WEAPON formed against us can prosper ). I believe there is a demonic spirit named Patriotism, and I think MANY people are under his influence and control. Throw a flag, a 'good ole patriotic song', a holiday, some jets flying over, maybe some politician spouting about American pride...and almost everyone is ready to bow down worship him. btw: if the truth gets under anyones skin, they might want to see about some deliverance, patriotism to America is not the same as being a citizen of the kingdom of God. A man can't serve God and man, we're to be focused on a city that is yet to be established, but is promised for all who look with expectancy for it.

Jesus Christ, our soon coming King...

No, American Christians don't need God, they've got their cathedrals; self appointed apostles and prophets, who tell them everythings OK, just keep planting those 'seed'; they have TBN and their false teachings; they have their 'brothers and sisters' of other faiths who they've embraced(Mormons,Catholics,Scientology,Muslims,Hindu, and whatever else)...and most dear to their hearts, they have their x-mass, easter, church programs, and denominational creeds.


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: The Principles of Nonresistance vs our Rights [message #5690 is a reply to message #5689 ] Mon, 04 May 2009 22:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
Messages: 1188
Registered: January 2006
Senior Member
Administrator
Preach it!

I know a street corner where you can set up an amp and microphone and go
at it. Turn west on Finley Ave off of I65 and when you get to the Y in
the road, set up shop! I was in the magic city a year or so ago and some
guy was preaching away on that intersection... you've got just as much of
a "right" as he does!<grin>

It is frustrating though. Here in the southland it is obligatory to pay
homage to the patriot god (actually two of them--Dixie the god of
rebellion and Democrazy the mob god).

It's so crazy around here, that one of the last messages I heard from our
former pastor was one that pumped us up with Alabama Pride... something
about us being a "forerunner" state. It was so bad that it literally made
me want to puke. He comforted the few that came across the border from
Tennessee by saying that they at least recognized what God was doing here
and could take pride in the fact that they were willing to travel the
extra miles to be with the forerunners. I kid you not.

If it isn't regional pride that we wallow in, it is national pride. You
can imagine the ire that gets heaped upon one who speaks out against such
nonsense.

How many times have you heard that things went downhill from the time they
took prayer out of the schools? (Actually, I heard that one first at FA
from a very short term pastor... but I digress. <grin>) Why can't we get
the 10 commandments back in our statehouse? You know, the commandments
that all seem to give lip service to... the ones we want to bronze over
and place in a prominent place so that we can show how religious we are.
(Even though I know of *NO* one that even attempts to take them seriously
enough to obey the one about the Sabbath. God ordered the guy who picked
up sticks on the Sabbath day to be taken out and stoned... that is
Saturday, btw., and if I ever run across even one who takes that one
seriously I'll tip my hat to them for at least being consistent.)

Downhill from what? The legalistic religious leaders of yesteryear? The
ones who descended from those murderous civil touting religious
statists who killed those who didn't bow to their unholy alliance with the
state?

Okay, I know you think I'm about ready to move to Idaho so I'll
stop...<grin>.

News flash to those who say if you don't love this wonderful world of the
US you should leave: I didn't have any choice about being here, besides
if it were left up to me I'd probably stay anyway, because I'm so used to
the Laodician mentality I'm apathetic toward it all. Maybe God can wake us
up before we drown in this jacuzzi we call home.

Even so Lord Jesus, come quickly.

Blessings,
William


[Updated on: Tue, 05 May 2009 06:18]

Re: The Principles of Nonresistance vs our Rights [message #5691 is a reply to message #5688 ] Tue, 05 May 2009 09:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
Messages: 1932
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL
Senior Member
William wrote:

"You are right. But you are aware that you put yourself in jeopardy just
to suggest that "rights" given under the constitution might not be
synonymous with the perfect will of God for the believer, don't you?"


YES, I am aware of that...I am aware that ANYTIME a Christian stands on The Word of God and encourages others to do the same, that ridicule and scoffing follows, many time from fellow Christians. There will be charges of being cultish, narrowminded, lacking love, foolish, UN-american,( I've been called a communist before...), and for refusal to go to Vietnam, a coward.( I believe it takes more courage to stand up for what is right, that to just follow along with what one is told...Rocking the boat isn't popular, especially when those in it don't believe it's possible to walk on water...)

Standing on The Word will seperate families, friends, church members; RIGHTS? I can't find a list of 'rights' in The Bible...I see commandments, instructions, words of wisdom, encouragements, admonitions, laws, examples, parables, and the promise of grace to follow them...nothing about our 'right' to follow them or not.

But that's what happens when 'man' decides he knows more about life than HE who created all life. After all, The Word of God was written thousands of years ago...and if you use one of their 'machines' than can tell how old something is( like that makes ANY sense...man makes a machine that proves the age of a rock...evolution )
Yeah, once upon a time, in a land far, far, away...about 14 ga-zillon years ago( really, my machine says so ) there was a little ameba, who lived all by it's self...til one day a big explosion happened.....Walla! And there you have the history of life itself...We really do have some smart folks walking around on this planet... Rolling Eyes


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: The Principles of Nonresistance vs our Rights [message #5812 is a reply to message #5691 ] Fri, 22 May 2009 15:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
Messages: 1932
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL
Senior Member
There was a survey done recently, on what Evangelical Protestants in America thought about torture; it was conducted by The Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life.

62% of white, Evangelical Protestants surveyed thought torture was acceptable in getting info by the government. Chuck Colson was one who condoned it.

Charles Kramer, a religious studies professor says, " that despite Jesus' own commitment to nonviolence, Christianity as a whole, has NEVER embraced nonviolence."

He went on to say that many evangelicals confuse patriotism with piety. " What is good for America, is often been seen as God's will", Kramer said.


Just a question that has popped up in my own conscience...

If we as Christians believe war is wrong, and we don't participate in them, would the celebration of 'Memorial Day' be inconsistent with our beliefs?

Should someone who went and fought and killed others be considered a hero to a Christian who lives their life in obedience to what Jesus taught?

Something to ponder...

[Updated on: Fri, 22 May 2009 15:54]


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: The Principles of Nonresistance vs our Rights [message #5816 is a reply to message #5812 ] Sun, 24 May 2009 11:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
Messages: 1188
Registered: January 2006
Senior Member
Administrator


On Fri, 22 May 2009, James wrote:

>
> Just a question that has popped up in my own concience...
>
> If we as Christians believe war is wrong, and we don't participate in
> them, would the celebration of 'Memorial Day' be inconsistent with our
> beliefs?
>
> Should someone who went and fought and killed others be considered a
> hero to a Christian who lives their life in obedience to what Jesus
> taught?
>

I suppose we could use it as a day to remember the fallen heroes of our own
faith... those who have gone before us after fighting the good fight
leaving us with the fruit of their labors.

I just hope that Grandom doesn't become a casualty when he attends a
church somewhere this morning. The twenty-one gun salute that's planned
in many churches during the Memorial Day festivities, can kill anyone's
enthusiasm for fellowship! <grin>


Blessings,
William


[Updated on: Sun, 24 May 2009 11:54]

Re: The Principles of Nonresistance vs our Rights [message #5817 is a reply to message #5816 ] Sun, 24 May 2009 12:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
Messages: 1932
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL
Senior Member
Good grief, ( I forgot about the implications of Memorial Day on the patriotic church)

I can just see the pastor,(hope it's not a woman) giving the signal to someone near the back door;

smoke fills the room, giant flags unroll from the ceiling, and in walks 21 Marines with white gloves, armed with rifes and bayonets.


Grandom starts speaking in tongues and pleading The Blood...as he exits the building...

I don't know why that picture came to my mind Smile


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: The Principles of Nonresistance vs our Rights [message #5818 is a reply to message #5817 ] Sun, 24 May 2009 13:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
Messages: 1188
Registered: January 2006
Senior Member
Administrator



On Sun, 24 May 2009, James wrote:

>
>
> Good grief, ( I forgot about the implications of Memorial Day on the
> patriotic church)
>
> I can just see the pastor,(hope it's not a woman) giving the signal to
> someone near the back door;
>
> smoke fills the room, giant flags unroll from the ceiling, and in walks
> 21 Marines with white gloves, armed with rifes and bayonets.
>
>
> Grandom starts speaking in tongues and pleading The Blood...as he exits
> the building...
>

Too funny!

I almost wrote something yesterday about the likelihood of his stumbling
in on a situation that would likely put an end to his guilt about not
assembling with other believers, but I didn't want to become a stumbling
block to his quest. (I didn't go to our regular service today for that
very reason!)

It would be like someone who has avoided church for a long time (because
of the influence of paganism) showing up on christmas day!

Hopefully he didn't have an experience like we are imagining though!

Blessings,
William


Re: The Principles of Nonresistance vs our Rights [message #5819 is a reply to message #5817 ] Sun, 24 May 2009 13:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
Messages: 1188
Registered: January 2006
Senior Member
Administrator
On Sun, 24 May 2009, James wrote:

>
> Grandom starts speaking in tongues and pleading The Blood...as he exits
> the building...
>

Yes, and someone grabs him and says, "Hey everyone, this guy must be a
terrorist, I think I heard him speaking Persian!"

Hope they don't waterboard him...

Blessings,
William

P.S. He must not have attended a denomination church... it's already 1:30
pm!




Re: The Principles of Nonresistance vs our Rights [message #5855 is a reply to message #5819 ] Thu, 04 June 2009 20:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
Messages: 1932
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL
Senior Member
Here's a link to a church in Kentucky (AOG) that exemplifies the accepted direction the 'church' is headed in. While I would hope that this is an exception, there are probably many 'christians' who would support this mindset.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2009-06-04-kentucky_N.ht m?csp=34


I guess I can mark this one off my list to visit... Embarassed


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: The Principles of Nonresistance vs our Rights [message #5857 is a reply to message #5855 ] Thu, 04 June 2009 22:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JWBTI  is currently offline JWBTI
Messages: 289
Registered: March 2007
Location: Ohio
Senior Member
James,
you could mark it off your list or you could go in and preach,

Repent ! The Kingdom of Heaven is at Hand, followed by the Sermon on the Mountain.

Preach like John, to turn the hearts of the Children back to the Father ! Luke 1:17

Some might Repent !

[Updated on: Thu, 04 June 2009 22:05]


Ron
Re: The Principles of Nonresistance vs our Rights [message #5920 is a reply to message #5855 ] Mon, 29 June 2009 19:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
Messages: 1932
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL
Senior Member
Back on my hobbyhorse ( or was it a soapbox?), anyway, one of my pet peeves...Christians shouldn't be shooting people!

I just saw on the national nightly news a feature story on the Assembly of God church in Kentucky that had the 'wear your gun to church day'. The media had reporters there and interviewed several churchgoers, including the pastor. He, the pastor, was proudly wearing his handgun on his side like a police detective. He authoritatively declared that God wanted Christians to defend themselves, it was their God given right and well as a Constitutional right. He said they had nothing to ashamed of, that Christians should be prepared to defend themselves.

I don't want to be critical, but if the shepherd's teaching the sheep the exact opposite of what Jesus taught in His Word, what chance do those people have? When FAITH is absent, then FEAR is present; if people aren't taught The Word (which is how faith is received), then they only have themselves to rely on ( and their guns ). Yet every Sunday they draw nigh with their lips, but their hearts are far from God, having been taught a form of godliness, but deny the power thereof.

Jesus, the One we are to be copying, went about doing good, not killing people. How can we call ourselves Christians, if we aren't, at the very least, TRYING, to be LIKE Him?


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: The Principles of Nonresistance vs our Rights [message #5921 is a reply to message #5920 ] Mon, 29 June 2009 22:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
Messages: 1188
Registered: January 2006
Senior Member
Administrator
I don't know why something like this would make the news unless it is the fact that even the media realizes that there is something incongruous when the Church of Jesus Christ takes up arms... that is what makes it a story for them.

You'd expect that given their proclivities they would bash this to pieces, not because of the teaching of Jesus but because they are gun-control fanatics. I didn't see any "outrage" like what you would usually expect. The reporting almost gave an approving nod to these people. Normally a group would be tarred and feathered in any other context --because they hate guns!

Reporting that bashes anything Christian is normal but this report is so uncharacteristic of their craft that it makes you wonder if they are "almost persuaded"! (Act 26:28 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.)

Let someone preach bible truth and they will go bananas! Let a church burn occult literature and watch their reaction. Let a church say something about marriage being between a man and a woman and they'll turn red with rage. Let a church stand up against the kingdoms of this world and they'll fight it tooth and toenail!

But, let a church go against the teachings of Jesus and they'll stand up and cheer. That's what makes this a story for them; they know this isn't just quite right, so they will put it on the front page. Let the church perform a g*y "marriage" and you'll likely see it on CNN! They relish the idea that the teachings of our faith are being convoluted and perverted.

Sorry about shoving you off of the soapbox... you can have it back now!<grin>

Blessings,
William

[Updated on: Tue, 30 June 2009 08:32]


I want to believe!
Re: The Principles of Nonresistance vs our Rights [message #5923 is a reply to message #5921 ] Thu, 02 July 2009 16:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
Messages: 1932
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL
Senior Member
While I don't have a hard time believing this, it's unbelievable; There is a new Bible available as of yesterday, written by a Baptist minister in Georgia. The "New American Patriots Bible" has within it over 300 articles about the 'Battle Hymn of the Republic', the right to keep and bear arms, and the war in Iraq. It's ready just in time for the 4th of July and church on Sunday...is this a dream come true or another nightmare?

Here's the link to read all about it...

http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2009-07-01-patriots-bi ble_N.htm


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: The Principles of Nonresistance vs our Rights [message #6028 is a reply to message #5923 ] Tue, 04 August 2009 09:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
Messages: 1932
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL
Senior Member
I was reading today that applications for gun permits are setting record numbers throughout the country. It is really amazing to me just how many people are arming themselves, it's like the latest fad. I'm encountering people whom you'd never dream were carrying gun and had permits for them. And not only that, spend considerable time at gun ranges practicing shooting at targets. ( and this isn't shooting clay pigeons for sport either, it's to try and insure that they'll be prepared if they think they 'need' to use their weapon.)

A lot of times when I read something in the news, it is blown out of context or an extreme example just used for shock value or to sway the opinions of the readers. But this isn't the case with guns and the explosion of people buying, carrying, and using them.

Here's a little update on what's going on around the country with people seeking protection within themselves, as opposed to the protection offered by God in Psalms 91 and throughout God's Word.


http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2009-08-03-guns_N.htm?cs p=34


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: The Principles of Nonresistance vs our Rights [message #6089 is a reply to message #6028 ] Mon, 14 September 2009 16:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
Messages: 1932
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL
Senior Member
I know that there have been a couple of people who have had trouble with the teachings on nonresistance, especially concerning 'bearing arms' and American 'rights'. But I believe in my heart that to be Christlike, we MUST obey His commandments and teachings. Here is the link to an excellent article written by a man named Harry Bethel, who sums up what I've been trying to share here in this thread about nonresistance, he lays it out very clearly and with scriptural references.

Jesus said,"And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me." Matt.11:6


http://lastdaysministry.com/NON_RESISTANCE.htm


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: The Principles of Nonresistance vs our Rights [message #6170 is a reply to message #5921 ] Sun, 01 November 2009 14:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ktrepairs  is currently offline ktrepairs
Messages: 4
Registered: October 2009
Location: fort worth texas
Junior Member
Do you believe King David has /or will be admitted into heaven?
Re: The Principles of Nonresistance vs our Rights [message #6171 is a reply to message #6170 ] Sun, 01 November 2009 15:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
Messages: 1932
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL
Senior Member
YES...

Is your thinking on this (and I'm not saying it is, but asking if it is...) because he killed people in battle as recorded in OT, that we are justified in doing likewise? Surely not, but since you asked the question under this thread I'm assuming it has something to do with that. Then again, maybe you're wondering if what Jesus said goes back to the OT and applies to them. To that question I would answer No, God commanded Israel to destroy their enemies and to even kill other Israelites who disobeyed His laws...We aren't under the Law, Jesus gave us the sermon on the mountain (well actually, He gave us His Word on how to live, and He was on a little mount when He spake it)along with many other instructions on how The Father wanted us to live( remember, He only spoke that which The Father gave Him to speak ).

Jesus commanded us ( His disciples ) to resist not evil and to turn the other cheek.

I'm also assuming you were asking the question of me... Smile


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: The Principles of Nonresistance vs our Rights [message #6195 is a reply to message #6171 ] Tue, 10 November 2009 16:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
Messages: 1932
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL
Senior Member
A question for anyone wrestling with whether or not Jesus meant what He said concerning the sermon on the mount. Was Jesus meek and did He tell us to be?

"Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth." Matt.5:5

"Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls." Matt.11:29

Can a meek person strike, injure, or kill another person based on what Jesus tells us? Meekness doesn't mean weakness, a follower of Christ obeying His example of meekness, isn't weak, just as Jesus wasn't weak...It takes resolve and yielding to The Holy Spirit to overcome in any area of our lives. To resist not evil isn't a sign of weakness, but of obedience to what God has shown to be His will for our lives.

He said the way was narrow and few there be that found it, but He also said to take His yoke upon us and learn of Him...the benefits are great; divine protection, rest for our souls, the earth as our inheritance, and blessings.


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: The Principles of Nonresistance vs our Rights [message #6336 is a reply to message #6089 ] Tue, 24 November 2009 20:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
Messages: 1188
Registered: January 2006
Senior Member
Administrator
Great link James!

This quote is worth repeating:
Quote:

As citizens of heaven it is not our calling to defend any particular political ideology. The end result of democracy, which is rule by the people, is the right for women to kill their unborn children, the right to publish and distribute pornographic literature, the right to broadcast sensuous and immoral acts on television, the right for homosexuals to teach in the public schools and parade down the middle of the street (with a government-issued permit) carrying placards and flaunting their sin, ad nauseam. --Harry Bethel


Stuff really worth fighting for! <grin>


Blessings,
William


I want to believe!
Re: The Principles of Nonresistance vs our Rights [message #6344 is a reply to message #6336 ] Thu, 26 November 2009 10:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
Messages: 1932
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL
Senior Member
My POINT PREZACTLY! Rolling Eyes


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: The Principles of Nonresistance vs our Rights [message #7050 is a reply to message #6344 ] Mon, 19 April 2010 10:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
Messages: 1932
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL
Senior Member
In 1948 General Omar Bradley made this statement which had a prophetic ring to it:

"We have grasped the mystery of the atom and rejected the Sermon on the Mount...Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants."


I read Christians defending their positions concerning a lack of obedience to God's Word, by saying that what was written in the NT was based on the culture at the time and we live in a different culture today. Really that kind of sums it up, rather than the 'church' influencing our culture, the culture of today has influenced the 'church'...to the point that The Bible is no longer the final authority, but rather now we need to look at what God says based on our surrounding culture.

The early Church turned the world upside down...the world today has turned the church upside down.

Jesus said to turn the other cheek and to love our enemies and to return evil with good. It didn't go over well then, and it's still a point of contention among professing Christians. 'Rights', the Constitution, american traditions, and allegiance to this country and it's flag is blindly held on to by professing christians more than allegiance to Jesus Christ and obedience to His Words.


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: The Principles of Nonresistance vs our Rights [message #9204 is a reply to message #7050 ] Mon, 17 December 2012 09:46 Go to previous message
james  is currently offline james
Messages: 1932
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL
Senior Member
Our 'rights'...as Americans.


I think this would be a good time to start hammering out those 'swords and spears' into plowshares and pruninghooks(Isaiah 2:4). How many people are going to have to die before this society is willing to change? What do we need with assult rifles and automatic weapons as individuals? I don't have issues with a rifle or shotgun to shoot game with;, but guns that will fire hundreds of rounds per minute with magazines that hold enough bullets to kill a small army in 3 minutes? Available to anyone over 19 without a criminal record? Nope! I'm not going to go protest and march on Washington, or join the political party that is against assult rifles...just voicing my thoughts.

Someone reminded me today of how people get all emotional when they see the blood and carnage of little children murdered in cold-blood(and we should); but what about the thousands of babies who are murdered(aborted) daily here in America...Oh yeah! It's our 'right' to do that...Something seem out of whack about that to you? We have 'the right' to own weapons that can killed dozens , if not hundreds, in minutes; and we have 'the right' to legally kill unborn children...all 'right' there in our constitution. America, a Christian nation 'under God'?

Oh! Tis the season to be merry, all is well. America will eat, drink, and be merry.

Mercy Jesus...


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Previous Topic:Life, liberty, and the pursuit of unhappiness...
Next Topic:Insurance as required by law
Goto Forum:
  


Current Time: Wed Jul 26 03:39:18 CDT 2017

Total time taken to generate the page: 0.01699 seconds
.:: Contact :: Home ::.

OvercomersOnline.com is Powered by: FUDforum 2.7.3.
Copyright ©2001-2004 FUD Forum Bulletin Board Software