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Re: Why I Believe In Both... TRI-Unity [message #822 is a reply to message #820 ] Fri, 12 October 2007 14:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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Like Duncan said, it is fruitless.

Quote:

Am I mistaken in thinking that you as a FA member were baptized in the name of Jesus? If Jesus is not the name of the Father and the Spirit why would one do such a thing?

It seems like a contradiction to baptize in Jesus name if it is not THE NAME of the Father and Holy Spirit.


You see contradiction; I see none. It is that simple...

Jesus, as the Son of God/Father of us all/Creator of all things/the Eternal LOGOS/The Representative of the Godhead/The Name above every name, says to baptize into the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, (the only "Name" given under heaven with reference to our salvation is Jesus), and then the disciples, who heard Him, baptized in the Name, therefore baptism in the Name of Jesus seems intuitive to me.

Now, if Jesus had said, (my feeble attempt to illustrate by contrast) baptize them in the Names, Ward, Beaver, and June Cleaver, then we would use those given names. Since He didn't and the only Name as opposed to a title we know is Jesus then we baptize in His name.

God is bigger than our little world (words fail) so when He reveals Himself to this little speck of dust through one aspect of His triune nature, it is perfectly natural for us to make Him, that aspect of His eternal nature we know as the LOGOS/Jesus, the focal point of our devotion. (See verses below)

If that was the only thing we knew about His nature, then that would be sufficient. In other words, if He had never presented His triune nature to us, then that would be the end of the matter. But when He presents the other aspects of His triune nature to us it becomes necessary for us to accept what He reveals, without coming up with fanciful interpretations (in a vain attempt to deny those other aspects of His Godhead... e.g. "Us" is referring, "out of courtesy," to the angels... give me a break!).

I'm waiting for you to explain to us the secret hat trick at Jesus' baptism, and at the transfiguration.

The Holy Spirit descending in a bodily shape; the voice from heaven; all the while Jesus standing in the water. Now the Gnostics wouldn't even blink an eye at this account; they know all of the secrets!

Luk 3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

Luk 9:35 And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.
Luk 9:36 And when the voice was past, Jesus was found alone. And they kept it close, and told no man in those days any of those things which they had seen.

I'm really not looking for another fanciful answer here so don't knock yourself out.

William

[Updated on: Fri, 12 October 2007 14:27]


I want to believe!
Re: Why I Believe In Both... TRI-Unity [message #824 is a reply to message #822 ] Fri, 12 October 2007 17:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Michael The Disciple  is currently offline Michael The Disciple
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Registered: September 2007
Location: Somerset Ky
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Quote:


If that was the only thing we knew about His nature, then that would be sufficient. In other words, if He had never presented His triune nature to us, then that would be the end of the matter. But when He presents the other aspects of His triune nature to us it becomes necessary for us to accept what He reveals, without coming up with fanciful interpretations (in a vain attempt to deny those other aspects of His Godhead... e.g. "Us" is referring, "out of courtesy," to the angels... give me a break!).


So here are the choices. God said let us make Man in our image out of courtesy to the Angels who's image was made after his own....OR:

God said Let us make man to someone else WHO WAS GOD.

Of course this would destroy the concept of One God. This is the path Trinitarians have chosen.

I say he said it to Angels because NO ONE ELSE EXISTED!

Quote:

I'm waiting for you to explain to us the secret hat trick at Jesus' baptism, and at the transfiguration.

The Holy Spirit descending in a bodily shape; the voice from heaven; all the while Jesus standing in the water. Now the Gnostics wouldn't even blink an eye at this account; they know all of the secrets!

Luk 3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

Luk 9:35 And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.
Luk 9:36 And when the voice was past, Jesus was found alone. And they kept it close, and told no man in those days any of those things which they had seen.

I'm really not looking for another fanciful answer here so don't knock yourself out
.

Ok now we are making progress. You are telling WHY you believe in the Trinity. The baptism of Jesus.

Therein we will find the answer to most objections to Oneness doctrine.

I believe Yeshua was and is BOTH God and man. When he was on Earth whether he was being baptized or whether he was praying he was doing it AS A MAN!

That of him which was Man was on Earth. That of him which was God was in Heaven.

Is this scriptural?

While Yeshua was standing here on Earth talking to Nicodemus he said:

13: And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. John 3:13

While Jesus was here on Earth at the very same time he was STILL IN HEAVEN! How? Because he was God and Man similtaneously.

YHWH himself existing in two modes of being.

Thats why Jesus prayed. If he were here as the SECOND PERSON OF GOD he would have had no need to pray.

God is all knowing and all powerful. What was it that GOD THE SECOND PERSON needed?

Does one God pray to another God? Then how would they be co equal? Is not the Father shown as being greater than the Son? If not why is he praying to him?

And again if one person of God is praying to another person of God it destroys the Biblical concept that YHWH is one.

Does the Bible teach Jesus is both God and Man?

5: For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 1 Tim. 2:5

There is ONE GOD. I have never seen anyone try to say that THEOS the Greek for God is plural. If there is only one God then it must be Jesus as YHWH.

28: And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. John 20:28

If Jesus is God he is the only God.

Thats why I say Jesus is BOTH God and man.

The Holy Spirit descending as a dove at Jesus baptism? Lets be clear who the Holy Spirit is.

23: But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24: God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. John 4:23-24

Verse 23 subject is the FATHER. Verse 24 still speaking of the same thing GOD IS A SPIRIT.

Nothing here that introduces us to ANOTHER PERSON OF GOD. We do not go from the Father being a Spirit to a separate co equal spirit apart from him!

The dove? God is omnipresent spirit. He can manifest his spirit any way he choses to do. Simply the sign of Gods favor coming upon his son. "In you I am well pleased".

So the Father (Eternal Spirit) is revealing to John Baptist that this is his Son, the Messiah.

Hat tricks(your words) such as God praying to God do not explain accurately in attempting to understand the interaction between the Father and Son.

The error is in the thinking this is interactions between members of the Godhead instead of God and man.

So the idea that Jesus baptism presents three co equal co eternal persons each one God in his own right falls flat.

Does God need to be baptized or man?

[Updated on: Fri, 12 October 2007 17:27]

Re: Why I Believe In Both... TRI-Unity [message #825 is a reply to message #824 ] Fri, 12 October 2007 20:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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Quote:

Quote:

William:


If that was the only thing we knew about His nature, then that would be sufficient. In other words, if He had never presented His triune nature to us, then that would be the end of the matter. But when He presents the other aspects of His triune nature to us it becomes necessary for us to accept what He reveals, without coming up with fanciful interpretations (in a vain attempt to deny those other aspects of His Godhead... e.g. "Us" is referring, "out of courtesy," to the angels... give me a break!).




So here are the choices. God said let us make Man in our image out of courtesy to the Angels who's image was made after his own....OR:

God said Let us make man to someone else WHO WAS GOD.


Now Michael, surely you can come up with another choice? I refuse to believe that a person who has written as much as you have on this subject is incapable of at least postulating another choice (even if you don't agree with it).

Quote:

Ok now we are making progress. You are telling WHY you believe in the Trinity. The baptism of Jesus.


ARRRRRRGGGGHH! No, No, No, this isn't why I believe in the triune nature of the Godhead. And you call this progress?

Quote:

Thats why Jesus prayed. If he were here as the SECOND PERSON OF GOD he would have had no need to pray.

God is all knowing and all powerful. What was it that GOD THE SECOND PERSON needed?

Does one God pray to another God? Then how would they be co equal? Is not the Father shown as being greater than the Son? If not why is he praying to him?

And again if one person of God is praying to another person of God it destroys the Biblical concept that YHWH is one.


Do you really not understand? Are you really this confused? Do you know *ANYTHING* about the humanity of Jesus? Do you not understand the "εκενωσεν" (lit."He emptied Himself" KJV-"made himself of no reputation") experience?

Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Php 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Php 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
Php 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
Php 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.



I want to believe!
Re: Why I Believe In Both... TRI-Unity [message #826 is a reply to message #825 ] Fri, 12 October 2007 21:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Michael The Disciple  is currently offline Michael The Disciple
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moulder wrote on Fri, 12 October 2007 20:08

Quote:

Quote:

William:


If that was the only thing we knew about His nature, then that would be sufficient. In other words, if He had never presented His triune nature to us, then that would be the end of the matter. But when He presents the other aspects of His triune nature to us it becomes necessary for us to accept what He reveals, without coming up with fanciful interpretations (in a vain attempt to deny those other aspects of His Godhead... e.g. "Us" is referring, "out of courtesy," to the angels... give me a break!).




So here are the choices. God said let us make Man in our image out of courtesy to the Angels who's image was made after his own....OR:

God said Let us make man to someone else WHO WAS GOD.


Now Michael, surely you can come up with another choice? I refuse to believe that a person who has written as much as you have on this subject is incapable of at least postulating another choice (even if you don't agree with it).

Quote:

Ok now we are making progress. You are telling WHY you believe in the Trinity. The baptism of Jesus.


ARRRRRRGGGGHH! No, No, No, this isn't why I believe in the triune nature of the Godhead. And you call this progress?

Quote:

Thats why Jesus prayed. If he were here as the SECOND PERSON OF GOD he would have had no need to pray.

God is all knowing and all powerful. What was it that GOD THE SECOND PERSON needed?

Does one God pray to another God? Then how would they be co equal? Is not the Father shown as being greater than the Son? If not why is he praying to him?

And again if one person of God is praying to another person of God it destroys the Biblical concept that YHWH is one.


Do you really not understand? Are you really this confused? Do you know *ANYTHING* about the humanity of Jesus? Do you not understand the "εκενωσεν" (lit."He emptied Himself" KJV-"made himself of no reputation") experience?

Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Php 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Php 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
Php 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
Php 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.







Ok I thought you were now going to explain something of why you believe in the Trinity. What was then the point of mentioning the baptism of Jesus? Many have tried to use it to promote Trinity teaching.

Yes I know about the fact that the Word/Form of God was made flesh. Did you read my posts about The WORD and the Angel of YHWH?

But I would like to hear what YOU think about it.

And while you are at it tell me about that other option to the fact that YHWH made all things alone and by himself?

24: Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself; Isaiah 44:24

Doesnt look like another co equal, co eternal person was needed to help him. Much less two of them!

Re: Why I Believe In Oneness [message #8529 is a reply to message #786 ] Mon, 31 October 2011 19:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lesjude  is currently offline lesjude
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Do you not see a qualitative not a mathematical oneness here with 3 eternal manifestations?
Matthew 3:16-17
16 When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He[a] saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him. 17 And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”
Re: Why I Believe In Oneness [message #8531 is a reply to message #8529 ] Mon, 31 October 2011 20:04 Go to previous message
james  is currently offline james
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Leslie, if you'll notice this thread has be inactive since 2007. Michael had a lot of beliefs that we didn't agree with, he has been gone for several years. He isn't a JW...


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
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