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Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8280 is a reply to message #8279 ] Tue, 20 September 2011 11:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
GWB  is currently offline GWB
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I ain't mad either! Smile


Shalom,

GWB

"Be still and know that I am God."
Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8281 is a reply to message #8278 ] Tue, 20 September 2011 11:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
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moulder wrote on Tue, 20 September 2011 10:21


This forum would be nothing without you James and as I think about it each one of the regular participants adds such a unique perspective that it would be difficult to be inspired (as I am regularly by you all!) if we lost anyone. I don't know about you, but I've missed the 'sage' advice of one of the members very much.

Blessings,
William



I thanks you for the kind words and I know you meant well, but i am nothing and if this forum was raised up by God to minister to people(including ourselves), and I fully believe that it was, He can/will/does use whomever He choses. My only redeeming quality(if I have one) is that I am willing and desirous to be used. When I was lead here(I believe my steps are directed by The Lord) I was in need of ministry, I needed other Christians to fellowship with and be encouraged by. I got that, plus far more than I could have expected. I was a very marred piece of clay, that HE would mercifully take the time to make me again into a vessel He could use...words fail to express my feelings.

Now, back to the subject at hand, medical science and the occult.

ps. I miss Sue as well, if you're still reading along Sue, we miss your imput and fellowship.

[Updated on: Tue, 20 September 2011 12:02]


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8282 is a reply to message #8275 ] Tue, 20 September 2011 12:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
grandom  is currently offline grandom
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I`ll probably be excommunicated GWB. My daughter is an RN also.

She works very hard to be a compassionate caring nurse. It is a

very stressful job as you well know and as most nurses do they put

their patients well aware above their own..

Btw if there was no insulin my wife would not be here with me.

Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8283 is a reply to message #8282 ] Tue, 20 September 2011 13:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
GWB  is currently offline GWB
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"I`ll probably be excommunicated GWB. My daughter is an RN also."


Hardly, grandom! Laughing Bless her heart and my prayers are with her for what she does! Laughing

Now...I hope James does not excommunicate me for saying that! Rolling Eyes Laughing BTW...I still ain't mad at anybody. Smile

I agree with moulder. We all have different opinions, experiences, and bring different outlooks to OO. I would not want to lose anyone due to a conversation or disagreement. At least we agree to disagree and we are not mocking Razz or insulting Razz each other like we used to! Hey, we have come a long way! Laughing

I seriously don't feel like I have to walk on eggshells anymore. We all have strong beliefs and personalities. However, I have learned the hard way to walk my own walk, be honest and as open as possible with others, and myself, and to respect the fact that every believer is in a totally different place with Jesus.

OK. I feel like I have gotten the warm and fuzzies out of the way. This is a very, very valuable conversation and I am open to all of it.

Thank God for OO! Very Happy


Shalom,

GWB

"Be still and know that I am God."
Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8284 is a reply to message #8282 ] Tue, 20 September 2011 13:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
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Choices...


I have been seeking a better understanding of some scriptures concerning obedience or disobedience, blessings or curses, trusting God or trusting man. I came across a commentary by a Jewish Rabbi on choices. He is using the Torah and using the text in Devarim(Deuteronomy)11:26. First I'll quote the KJV: Verses 26-28

"Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse;

A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of The LORD your God, which I command you this day:

And a curse, if you will not obey the commandments of The LORD your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known."

The Rabbi says,"In other words, Moshe Rabbeinu (Moses, our teacher) was telling the Jewish people, I place before you a CHOICE. Everything is about choice." (we know that it was G-D that who was giving them this choice, Moses was just the messenger)

Over in Jeremiah 17:5-8 another choice is offered to the Israelites.

"Thus saith The LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from The LORD.

For he shall be like the heath in the desert, and shall not see when good cometh; but shall inhabit the parched places in the wilderness, in a salt land and not inhabited.

Blessed is the man that trusteth in The LORD, and whose hope The LORD is.

For he shall be as a tree planted by the waters, and that spreadeth out her roots by the river, and shall not see when heat cometh, but her leaf shall be green; and shall not be careful in the year of drought, neither shall cease from yielding fruit."


What's changed since these scriptures were written? What's changed since we were taught this in great detail 30 years ago? Gods Word? Our faith? It was crystal clear to me then and it remains clear to me today, we are given the choice, should we make the wrong one we WILL be under a curse (lot of folks speak of a desert experience, hello?)and should we obey, we will walk in blessings.(a tree by the water, yeilding fruit)

Praise God, He changeth not; yet He is longsuffering and forgiving, but to be forgiven one must confess and repent. Amen?


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8285 is a reply to message #8284 ] Tue, 20 September 2011 14:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
GWB  is currently offline GWB
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Ok. I realize that I am not up to your standards concerning the healing issue, and that truely is OK...really. Smile

However, what do you want me to repent about? The fact that my head, or my faith, is not where yours is, right now? In that case, I would be repenting out of condemnation.

I love your passion and grasp of the Word, but I am not on the same page as you are for now. I would love to be Smith Wigglesworth, but I am not, and I know it. BTW, that is not a jab on my part towards you...honestly. Smile

Where and when do you allow people like me, who don't "quite get it," even after all of these years, to keep growing and waiting for the light bulb moment? Idea

According to you, and me, I have genuine beliefs and struggles, if you will. So, what are you going to do with me? Smile

You can twist my arm all you want, but I will, and am, screaming ouch!

BTW...still not mad! Very Happy


Shalom,

GWB

"Be still and know that I am God."
Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8286 is a reply to message #8285 ] Tue, 20 September 2011 14:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
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Gillyann,

I WAS NOT addressing you, per say. I know and understand that many people will read this, I'm encouraging them to turn back to that which they first embraced when they said, "Yes Lord, I'll follow you"...it's the plough thing, we can't look back and expect to enter in. I 'AIN'T there either in every aspect of my walk with Jesus, but I know unless He finds FAITH when He returns, people can confess to be overcomers til the cows come home, without total trust in Him we don't have a ticket on the first load going up. That's me, you, William, and any other confessing Christian. When are we going to prepare? We got to get the oil now...today is the time.

I said that I have know for 3 years that you were into medical science, I've never said one thing to you about it, either on OO or in private messages. And I certainly have no intentions of 'doing' anything 'with' you except to love and encourage you. I firmly believe this, if Hobart Freeman were here today he would be saying the same(or near to it) thing.

I am not the poster boy for a perfect man, I have no standard except God's Word. Forget the messenger, remember the message.


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8287 is a reply to message #8286 ] Tue, 20 September 2011 15:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
GWB  is currently offline GWB
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"I certainly have no intentions of 'doing' anything 'with' you except to love and encourage you."

Thanks, James. That is more than enough. Smile


I appreciate everything you have shared. For a moment there, I was wondering if you had prayed for patience recently. Rolling Eyes




Shalom,

GWB

"Be still and know that I am God."
Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8288 is a reply to message #8287 ] Tue, 20 September 2011 19:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JWBTI  is currently offline JWBTI
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I said:

They all practice witchcraft in
One form or another ! Yes, I know it has been legalized in this country.
------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------
So did I !

I was a slave to all and every drug that had a possibly of taking
Away the pain caused by Cluster head aces ! Even after I came into the message
Of Faith. No one condemned or criticized me, they pointed me to Gods Word.

God had mercy on me and one day the light came on ! Praise Jesus !
Healed in Jesus Name !

My heart goes out to those that tend to the sick and the needy.
Be it the physicians, nurses or aids, if they do it with a pure heart !
Is that occult…….No !

Do I question the use of drugs used by modern medicine…..Yes !
Do I caution others on the use and effects of those drugs…..Yes !
So do the doctors and pharmacy !

Do I believe that those drugs are linked to the occult ?
When I considered the damaging effects that those drugs had on
my mind an body………yes !

Do I condemn those that seek help from Medical Science…..Nope !

My prayer is that God would grant you Mercy and Grace as He
did me and bring healing to you in Jesus Name !

Forget not all his benefits:
1 Bless the Lord, O my soul: and all that is within me, bless his holy name.
2 Bless the Lord, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits:
3 Who forgiveth all thine iniquities; who healeth all thy diseases;
4 Who redeemeth thy life from destruction; who crowneth thee with lovingkindness and tender mercies;
5 Who satisfieth thy mouth with good things; so that thy youth is renewed like the eagle's
Psalms 103:1-5 (KJV)


Ron
Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8289 is a reply to message #8288 ] Tue, 20 September 2011 21:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
GWB  is currently offline GWB
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Thanks brother for the encouragement. I do feel like we are all in this together. For that I am so very thankful. I love each and every one of you.

BTW...I know how you love music. I am getting equipment to transfer tapes to CD. I have about a dozen more to share in the music section. It is a lot of work, but I know it is what He would have me do. Also, I have more notes to post that Linda found.

I know...You guys pray for me to have less hours in order to give me time for my next venture away from medicine. That will give me more time for the new music and notes to get posted for all to enjoy as well! HaHa! Smile


Shalom,

GWB

"Be still and know that I am God."
Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8314 is a reply to message #8263 ] Sun, 02 October 2011 10:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
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moulder wrote on Mon, 19 September 2011 02:52

It is an interesting topic... especially since this is the one area that has been and still is the rock of offense in our circles.

That said, I do think that this type of discussion is sorely needed if for no other reason than to clarify in our own minds the difference between a lack of faith and/or a lack of fidelity to God.

I hope the extent of the conversation doesn't degenerate into two camps-- those who 'hold fast' to the teaching verses those who do not--but hopefully it can be a fruitful discussion that will lead us into a solid understanding of why we believe what we believe which should help us to stand on the solid rock and give us wisdom in dealing with those who have no clue about any of this.

Hopefully someone will have some good answers!






For whatever the reason (and I understand the reason could be me and the way I share what I believe The Word teaches), this conversation came to a screeching halt and no one besides Grandom and myself have had anything to say since then on any topic. Hopefully no one was offended, but if anyone was and the offence came by me, I'm sorry.(not for standing on what I believe, but for not articulating it in a way that wouldn't cause others to withdraw from continuing...just what William warned against)

If anyone wants to continue the discussion and "Hopefully someone will have some good answers!", I will refrain from commenting on this thread. And NO I'm not offended, just want to make sure I'm not a hinderance for anyone needing/seeking 'answers, help, and clarity' on this most important subject.

If I'm misreading peoples reactions and this just happens to be a coincidence, maybe everyones seeking The Lord (if so, awesome! or maybe everyone has said all they have on their hearts to say), but if not, please continue.


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8315 is a reply to message #8314 ] Sun, 02 October 2011 11:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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Quote:

For whatever the reason (and I understand the reason could be me and the way I share what I believe The Word teaches), this conversation came to a screeching halt and no one besides Grandom and myself have had anything to say since then on any topic. Hopefully no one was offended, but if anyone was and the offence came by me, I'm sorry.(not for standing on what I believe, but for not articulating it in a way that wouldn't cause others to withdraw from continuing...just what William warned against)

If anyone wants to continue the discussion and "Hopefully someone will have some good answers!", I will refrain from commenting on this thread. And NO I'm not offended, just want to make sure I'm not a hinderance for anyone needing/seeking 'answers, help, and clarity' on this most important subject.

If I'm misreading peoples reactions and this just happens to be a coincidence, maybe everyones seeking The Lord (if so, awesome! or maybe everyone has said all they have on their hearts to say), but if not, please continue.


Hey James,

Just been busy here on this end... and I couldn't be troubled yesterday what with Auburn/SC and Alabama/Florida both televised on the old sewer-line! (Congratulations on the Auburn win, btw.)


All week I've been researching both the history and present-day application of DRUGS especially as it relates to Christians. I've even gone back to the tape that brother Freeman did on the subject way back when. I don't think that anything I've learned has changed my overall view on this subject but it has helped clarify some of the fuzzier aspects. (Fuzziness doesn't translate to faith very well!)

I think that our faith should rest solidly on the Word of God and not on someone's opinion lest we find ourselves standing on shifting sand. This is especially true if we expect others to hold to the same standard... obviously.

Blessings,
William

[Updated on: Sun, 02 October 2011 11:57]


I want to believe!
Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8316 is a reply to message #8315 ] Mon, 03 October 2011 00:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
GWB  is currently offline GWB
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As for me, I will always continue to seek answers and to weigh other's opinions.

There is so much on the line with all of the questions that have been addressed.

I don't take this topic lightly. Do we need to be able to embrace the uncompromised message of healing in order to "make it?" That is, without question, what was presented at FA.

You all know I respect Dr. Freeman very much. I am thankful I had the opportunity to learn so much about the Word from his ministry.

I am considerIng our attitude towards others, and ourselves, when wrestling with the issues at hand.

Many were hurt, and still are hurting, due to the "fight for the faith regardless" stand. My heart breaks for so many. I think it is one thing to fight, and I have had to fight for my life, and brush those people under the rug because everything does not line up with the apparent head knowledge.

You all know my story after FA. Also, I laid in childbirth to death's door. I told Him, after 36 hours of hard, horrid labor, that all I could do was push one more time and then I was ready to be with Him. You have to dilate 10 cm in order to deliver. I was too small and to push out 6 cm without anesthesia. People left the upstairs apartment and they closed all windows in hot weather due to neighbors and the fact that I was screaming at the top of my lungs out of pain for hours. My baby was born with jaundice which can be fatal. So, parden my details. My labor could have been helped with common sense puncturing of the bag. However, that was "help from man." Due to the trauma, my insides started to fall out. Even though my husband and I were in agreement to allow my body to heal, I was still the topic of a sermon about birth control. It was humiliating and devistating.

After being shunned for months, I moved back to the South in defeat. I had major players at FA call me and tell me that my salvation was at stake. Boy, what an encouragement!!!

So, dear brethren, this topic hits home very much. I could write a book about the condemnation I sent to others in my self righteousness and the condemnation sent my way and proclaimed over my walk.

Where do I stand in all of this? May God smite elitism in myself and the Body of Christ. It is very demonic and unproductive. IMHO

The Body of Christ is a family and familys can be very difficult to raise (whoops, rear...remember that one?). I truly believe we make it too difficult on those who are not picture perfect.

I always recall King Saul when I am tempted to judge others, "Oh, how the mighty have fallen."

I miss my precious sisters I sat next to in the nursery one night, and the next meeting their passing in childbirth, as well as the child, were not even acknowledged.

Is this what we call "defending the Faith?" God help our hardened hearts if it is.

Again, seriously, how are we to address these issues? Don't tell me it is water under the bridge because I am ministering to a dear sister who lost a baby 30 years ago!

What can you say to her right now as the siblings are in the process of getting a proper grave marker for the sister they never knew? Tell me what to say to her this coming week.

BTW...still not mad!!! Smile Just not!!! Smile

[Updated on: Mon, 03 October 2011 18:06]


Shalom,

GWB

"Be still and know that I am God."
Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8317 is a reply to message #8316 ] Mon, 03 October 2011 15:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
GWB  is currently offline GWB
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James, in being raised (reared Smile) with brothers, cousins, uncles, and brother-in-laws who demanded reponses whether I liked it or not Razz , I would love your input. Don't hold back for my sake; boring........

After all, that is what family is all about. So, please.....go for it. Smile

P.S. Because of the Word and our Father who we have in common, I respect your opinion more than all of theirs put together. Smile

[Updated on: Mon, 03 October 2011 16:31]


Shalom,

GWB

"Be still and know that I am God."
Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8318 is a reply to message #8317 ] Tue, 04 October 2011 13:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
GWB  is currently offline GWB
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I just wanted to add to my above post that Bro. Freeman was not the one who addressed this issue.

I also want to say that all is forgiven towards anyone who might have had a part in what happened to me.

Someone came to my home, I thought out of great concern for me, prayed with me, and immediately went to one of the teachers at the time with the story. I don't know why they took it upon themselves to do this, but they also added things to the story that were never said by me. That is forgiven as well.

I believe we ALL did and said things out of our love and zeal for Jesus. I will always be grateful for everything I learned at FA and for every single person I knew. We all learned many things, both good and bad, and we have moved on to more mature places.

I am thankful for unconditional love from my brothers and sisters. I am also thankful for the grace He has given me to show that kind of love to those from the past and present. For me, that is a daily walk as situations arise.

Again, it can be so very difficult to raise a family, as in the Body of Christ. I am thankful to be a part of that family. Smile


Shalom,

GWB

"Be still and know that I am God."
Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8319 is a reply to message #8318 ] Tue, 04 October 2011 19:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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Hi Gillyann,

We had a similar experience, though not as bad as the one you describe. It's tough when the ones that should be the most supportive are the least supportive, but it happens. I'll have to say that you really learn how to trust in Jesus during those times, probably more so than ever... (... all things work together...!).

Blessings,
William


I want to believe!
Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8320 is a reply to message #8284 ] Tue, 04 October 2011 19:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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james wrote on Tue, 20 September 2011 13:44

Choices...


..."Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse;

A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of The LORD your God, which I command you this day:

And a curse, if you will not obey the commandments of The LORD your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known."

...

What's changed since these scriptures were written? What's changed since we were taught this in great detail 30 years ago? Gods Word? Our faith? It was crystal clear to me then and it remains clear to me today, we are given the choice, should we make the wrong one we WILL be under a curse (lot of folks speak of a desert experience, hello?)and should we obey, we will walk in blessings.(a tree by the water, yeilding fruit)


This begs the question: Are curses to be equated to the occult?

I know that being involved in the occult will bring a curse but there are other things that will bring a curse that has nothing to do with the occult... at least as I understand it.

Not that I would recommend one over the other but David was under a curse for a time (for trusting in man) but I don't think we could charge him with occult involvement.

Blessings,
William


I want to believe!
Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8322 is a reply to message #8320 ] Fri, 07 October 2011 02:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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Is it the drugs in 'medical' science that makes it occult (if indeed we conclude that it is) or the 'science'?

Science and Christianity always had a shaky alliance and even today you'll find that some Christians think that faith and science are in opposition to each other and have nothing in common (redundant, I know!). I'll agree that when science theorizes about things that are contrary to the plain teaching of scripture it ought to be opposed but in those cases 'scientific' facts are not really facts but merely theories arising from the unbelieving heart of man. True science should affirm (where it is capable) all that is true and since Jesus is perfect Truth anything that is contrary to His teaching (or His Word) is by definition -- not true.

Most of us here are not Amish. We enjoy the benefits of scientific discoveries without apology. (If you are Amish and are reading this you might need to re-consider whether or not you are faithful to the tenets of your religion.)

Furthermore, as active participants on these internet forums we cannot still hold to some of the teachings of FA or we would have long ago discerned the reality that the internet is ten-times the sewer-line the television ever was. So it is not that we are incapable of separating the good from the bad... we do it all the time in this arena. (Not only in this arena... most of us don't even hold to the rigid rule we were taught concerning the original sewer-line -- that old television set.)

So what about the arena of medical science? Can we not examine it anew without being labeled as having forsaken the faith? Is there nothing redeemable in this field? How is it we can be so liberal in some areas but not in this area?

I don't mean in any way to discredit anything that we were taught that had as its basis the word of God. That never changes. But man's opinions do change and are in no way to be equated with infallible Scripture.

Truth is truth wherever it might be found. A dirty wound will almost always become infected unless it is throughly cleansed by soap (a wonderful chemical combination that, like deodorant, has become indispensable in almost all social situations!) or an antiseptic solution. (I suppose that there are natural soaps and deodorants that can be made from common ingredients that are totally natural -- like sand and water -- but who does this?<grin>)

A healthy diet is now the rule for those who want to remain healthy for the duration of a lifetime (another one of those ways that scientific discovery has been assimilated into our thinking) and we don't consider that a breach of faith even with the promise of healing so prominently taught in our circles.

I've been reading a lot about the subject of drugs this past week and while there is *much* to condemn, especially as it relates to ancient rites and mind-altering potential, some of the material I find hard to dismiss with a blanket statement as I've done in the past. I'm certainly not saying that faith in the atoning work of Jesus isn't the answer for Christians, it absolutely is, but I'm not at this point ready to say that *all* drugs fall into the occultic category. And if you've been reading this thread you know the importance I place upon the Christian's involvement with the occult -- a serious matter that can have eternal consequences.

If we do conclude that *all* drugs are to be placed in the realm of the occult we have more to be concerned about than we probably realize. We ingest all kinds of chemical concoctions everyday in the food we eat and the coffee we drink. I'm not sure we can escape this problem without serious thought being given to actually adopting more of an Amish lifestyle -- raising our own food and livestock. Even then we might have trouble because of our dependence upon drinking water and the air we breath -- both oftentimes containing trace amounts of chemical pollutions.

None of these things keep us from praying to the Lord for our daily bread and thanking Him for the abundant supply of all of our needs even as we chow down on the hormone injected sirloin steak, not to mention all of the other drugs given to livestock to prevent disease and whatnot.

Occult involvement, innocent or not, does not excuse us from its effects...(I've heard that somewhere before!)

Hopefully I haven't been too lighthearted in this thread because I would like to get across the absolute seriousness of the subject matter.

Occult or not? What could be more important than figuring this out? Some of our closest friends have given their lives because of this question, and the faith of others remain shipwrecked, all because of this.

Blessings,
William


I want to believe!
Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8326 is a reply to message #8173 ] Sun, 09 October 2011 12:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
wishing34  is currently offline wishing34
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There seems to be not much appetite to attempt a definition of the pharmakeia doctrine.




I was totally on board with the med science = witchcraft teaching
approx 30 years ago.

Now I have changed to define Christianity solely by the Bible
and disallow private interpretations and personal revelations.
So now I say that the med science = witchcraft teaching is extra-Biblical
and should be set aside.






=====================
Following are the concepts I would have posted in this forum 30 years ago
back when I believed the med science = occult teaching.

Possibly this will trigger new ideas for people.

---------



30 years ago I would have posted . . .




Med science is witchcraft for the following 2 reasons:

1)

Pharmakeia, the Greek word, means witchcraft, poisoning, the administering of drugs

Since the administering of drugs is so closely related to witchcraft - so much so that
the Greek word was the same for both - therefore they are inseparable even unto this day.

Therefore drug administers ( doctors, nurses, ) are practicing witchcraft and contact with
them in their health-providing capacity is occult contact whether drugs are involved in a
given situation ot not - ie: going to an occult practitioner for health is occult even if
drugs are not involved on a given day.

2)

The ministry gifts of our churches have taught the above concept or close to it.

These ministry gifts are the real deal a la Eph 4 and God has His hand on them
to avoid serious error and possibly all error.

If the med science = occult contact teaching is error, since it is such an important doctrine,
then God has failed to watch over us (the churches) doctrinally - a concept that is not
even possible since we are a special end time move of God.



===========================================




Questions and answers- from 30 years ago


Q:Can a word definition from a word 2000 years ago be used to link modern med
science to witchcraft?

A (30 years ago):The word definition links the use of drugs to witchcraft. So
med science relates because med science uses drugs today.

Follow up: But the connection of witchcraft and drugs - could that connection have been because
ancient witches used drugs as poisons - and there be no connection to modern
drugs?

Beneficial, modern chemical combinations (drugs) were unknown in the first century so
word usage would not have made the distinction between drugs as poison and drugs as
helpful- because the helpful usage did not yet exist.

So then the first century word 'Pharmakeia' links witchcraft to the first
century drug usage (poisoning). But drug usage has been changed so much by modern
science that the linkage no longer applies.

A (30 years ago):Your concept makes some sense - modern drugs are far from the poisons
of the first century witches. But I fall back on the fact that our anointed ministers
have taught it as I am saying it.







Q:Is a farmer who uses antibiotics on his cattle an occult practitioner?

A (30 years ago):Yes because he is using drugs instead of praying for God to
take care of the animals.




Q:
Should 'poisoning' be labeled occult by the same reasoning as 'administering drugs' - since
pharmakeia means 'poisoning' also?

Then gardeners, farmers (weed killing) , and people who spray ants are
occult practitioners just like doctors are occult practitioners?

A (30 years ago):
True the word definition logic is identical for farmers as it is for doctors but God has
only applied it to medical science - through our anointed teachers.





Q:
What about the argument that if you depart from the teachings of 30 years ago
that you are going to be judged?
A (30 years ago):
Possibly a consistent argument for someone who believes the ministry of 30 years
ago was caused by God to always be correct.




====================================================

30 years ago my defense of the med-science = occult
teaching would have rested heavily on the anointing
that I believed our ministry had - to always be correct.

I suspect where each person comes down on this issue
today relates mucho to the same belief or lack thereof
regarding the ministry.



Jman










Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8327 is a reply to message #8326 ] Sun, 09 October 2011 19:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JWBTI  is currently offline JWBTI
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Jman wrote:
There seems to be not much appetite to attempt a definition of the pharmakeia doctrine.
************************************************************ *********

Not so my friend !

In light of this discussion, I have been reevaluating The what and The why I Believe
That Medical Science = Occult.
Still searching, but will respond soon.


Jman wrote:
Now I have changed to define Christianity solely by the Bible
and disallow private interpretations and personal revelations.
So now I say that the med science = witchcraft teaching is extra-Biblical
and should be set aside.
************************************************************ ********

Seem to me that the Bible is full of private interpretations and personal revelations.
The Old Testament Prophets, the Apostles, The New Testament,
The Book of Revelation !

The Gifts of the Holy Spirit. What good are they then ?
Should we live by the Letter of the Word only or by the Revelation and understanding
By and thru the Holy Spirit of His Word ?

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
John 14:26 (KJV)

26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
1 Cor 14:26 (KJV)

Paul Said the Holy Spirit gives Revelation, should we ignore it ?

Still searching, be back later.

Blessing to all !


Ron
Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8328 is a reply to message #8173 ] Sun, 09 October 2011 21:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
wishing34  is currently offline wishing34
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Hi JWBTI,

Allowing for new doctrines to be added to the
Bible teaching is in my opinion ill advised.

You end up with everyone being able to change
the doctrines of the church according to whatever
they think God revealed. You would end up with a zillion
different denominations.


We would have to say , concerning each doctrine , that
the teaching is XYZ according to verses ABC . . . unless
any new revelation has been had to change/modify it.



You said :
Seem to me that the Bible is full of private interpretations and personal revelations.


The Bible indeed came via many revelations given to many people.
I am working under the assumption that the Bible is the complete and
final revelation of God.

Possibly I am wrong about that. The question then becomes how would
God reveal new revelations? My thought is through an apostle who
demonstrates the validation from God through the signs of an apostle.
So then the people know that God indeed agrees with the new revelations coming
through the apostle. Of course the new concepts could never disagree with the
existing Word.

I think new revelations would not come through any 5-fold except apostles.

The threshold to be accepted as a 5-fold is too low. The threshold to be
accepted as an apostle is high enough to avoid imposters.


----------------




You said:

26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying. 
1 Cor 14:26 (KJV)

Paul Said the Holy Spirit gives Revelation, should we ignore it ?



Interesting. I never viewed this verse as new doctrines – rather as insights to
understand in a deeper way the existing revelation (the Bible).

But you might have a verse here to hang your hat on if you want to allow for new
revelations – but I think it is not what Paul meant.



You said :

I have been reevaluating The what and The why I Believe 
That Medical Science = Occult.
Still searching, but will respond soon.


May you be prospered in this effort to the edifying of all.
Whatever the true, complete theology is . . . it is needed mucho.




Jman








Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8329 is a reply to message #8327 ] Sun, 09 October 2011 23:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
grandom  is currently offline grandom
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JWBTI wrote on Sun, 09 October 2011 19:35


Seem to me that the Bible is full of private interpretations and personal revelations



Based on 2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: I cannot concur that they are private "interpretations".

[Updated on: Mon, 10 October 2011 09:00]

Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8330 is a reply to message #8329 ] Mon, 10 October 2011 19:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JWBTI  is currently offline JWBTI
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Seem to me that the Bible is full of private interpretations and personal revelations
------------------------------------------------------------


grandom said:
I cannot concur that they are private "interpretations".

I agree Brother, I stand corrected !


Ron
Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8331 is a reply to message #8330 ] Mon, 10 October 2011 19:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JWBTI  is currently offline JWBTI
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Jman wrote:
Possibly I am wrong about that. The question then becomes how would
God reveal new revelations? My thought is through an apostle who
demonstrates the validation from God through the signs of an apostle.
So then the people know that God indeed agrees with the new revelations coming
through the apostle. Of course the new concepts could never disagree with the
existing Word.

I think new revelations would not come through any 5-fold except apostles.

The threshold to be accepted as a 5-fold is too low. The threshold to be
accepted as an apostle is high enough to avoid imposters.
------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------

Jwbti:
What are the Biblical standards For the Apostles ?

What are the Biblical standards for the prophet, evangelists, pastors and teachers.

Can the prophet, evangelists, pastors and teachers be given revelations equal to
The apostles ?

Is the Holy Spirit still giving revelations today ?


Has Eph 4:13 been fulfilled ?


11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Eph 4:11-13 (KJV)


Ron
Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8332 is a reply to message #8173 ] Mon, 10 October 2011 23:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
wishing34  is currently offline wishing34
Messages: 212
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Hi JWBTI,



You said :
What are the Biblical standards For the Apostles ? 
What are the Biblical standards for the prophet, evangelists, pastors and teachers.

---------


What is relevant is that apostles are to have the 'signs of an apostle'

This keeps out the imposters and is the reason we have no recognized
apostles so far. No one was ever allowed to elevate their favorite minister
to apostleship.


The "signs of an apostle" must be quite impressive the way 
II Cor 12:12 reads.

Paul could have not challenged his rivals the way he did in 
I Cor 4:18-21 if the "power" contest he anticipates
does not involve very undeniable signs by his hand


So an apostle must have notable signs and wonders to be recognized
as a real apostle. Therefore the church can know for sure that they
are to pay attention to what the apostle says. The church would also
be sure that what the apostle says is accurate -- because God confirmed
it with signs..

This line of reasoning is why I suggested above that any new doctrines
that are not already in the Bible come only through a functioning apostle.




You said:

Can the prophet, evangelists, pastors and teachers be given revelations equal to
The apostles ?
Is the Holy Spirit still giving revelations today ?

Revelations as defined as new doctrine that is not already in the Bible – case in
point in our discussion here is the 'med science=occult' teaching – are in my opinion to
only come through a valid apostle.

Revelations defined as deeper insights to existing Scripture should happen all
the time via the Holy Spirit to all believers




You said :
Has Eph 4:13 been fulfilled ? 

Clearly not which is why the church must address the fact
that apostles are promised but have never happened.



Jman






Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8333 is a reply to message #8332 ] Tue, 11 October 2011 15:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
grandom  is currently offline grandom
Messages: 404
Registered: October 2007
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I think that you all are missing one key word in Ephesians 4:11.
He gave some, apostles, some, prophets, some, evangelists, and some, pastors and teachers. I don't see any where in that verse that all five are promised to everyone.

I do see in Ephesians 4:13 that we ALL, come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

To me that indicates that not all five are necesary in any individuals life for this verse to be fulfilled and in fact apostles are not neccesary either. They were only given to some.






Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8335 is a reply to message #8173 ] Tue, 11 October 2011 18:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
wishing34  is currently offline wishing34
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Hi Grandom

It is beyond my ability in the Greek to be
authoritative w/r to the Greek words in this
passage.

So I refer you to look here

http://www.textkit.com/greek-latin-forum/viewtopic.php?f=23& amp;t=5503

as a starting point – this link is exactly on point and disagrees with your
analysis of the word 'some'

==============

The issue :

does “ He gave some “
mean “He gave to some people apostles” (but not to other people as
your infer Grandom)
or does it
mean “ He gave (to the church) some who are apostles “ indicating apostles
were given to the church.

I think the Greek means the second option - He gave (to the church) some who were apostles
but I am not good enough in the Greek to say with total confidence.

-----------------

Your interpretation has a couple of draw backs

In the New Testament the pattern was for every church to be
ministered to by an apostle. Consider Paul's whole ministry as an example and also
in Acts 8:14 apostles were sent to Samaria to put things in order
as soon as it was known that there was a group of believers there.

The New Testament pattern of the church in Corinth was that they
sent Paul questions and Paul set them in order by his responses.

This dove tales with my thought that doctrine comes through apostles
because apostles have signs of an apostle which validate that God
agrees for sure with what is being preached.






With your line of thought then some believers would never be
part of the ministry of an apostle . . . and some never part of the
ministry of a pastor ← same Greek word construction for pastors
as for the previous ministries.

I think everyone agrees that saying only some believers are given
pastors cannot be right. We believe that all believers are to have a
local church and that all churches are to have a pastor.




Jman






Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8336 is a reply to message #8335 ] Tue, 11 October 2011 19:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
grandom  is currently offline grandom
Messages: 404
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wishing34 wrote on Tue, 11 October 2011 18:47



This dove tales with my thought that doctrine comes through apostles
because apostles have signs of an apostle which validate that God
agrees for sure with what is being preached.




It would then appear to me then that every pastor in every generation since the apostles were last on the earth may or not have been preaching in agreement with God since there have not been any apostles to validate them according to your statement..

Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8337 is a reply to message #8173 ] Tue, 11 October 2011 20:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
wishing34  is currently offline wishing34
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Hi Grandom,


For approx 2000 years pastors have been teaching
according to the apostle delivered doctrines of God
which is the Bible. The Bible of course needs no further
validation each generation.

If a pastor (or teacher,etc) creates a new doctrine that is not already
in the Bible then I believe he has stepped beyond his
calling and his anointing. What that pastor comes up
with as a new doctrine may or may not be correct.

I believe anyone such as myself who chooses to not
accept that new doctrine is not to be criticized and
anyone who chooses to believe the new doctrine is
free in Christ to do so.

But the new doctrine cannot be required (via peer pressure
or pulpit pressure) in order to be “right with God.”



Of course it is understood that the new doctrine would not
be something that disagrees with the Bible.





Jman


Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8338 is a reply to message #8337 ] Wed, 12 October 2011 20:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JWBTI  is currently offline JWBTI
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Jman wrote
Q:Can a word definition from a word 2000 years ago be used to link modern med
science to witchcraft?

A (30 years ago):The word definition links the use of drugs to witchcraft. So
med science relates because med science uses drugs today.
------------------------------------------------------------ ---------------------------------------
Jwbti:
What about the other words in Gal 5 should they be defined differently today ?



19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Gal 5:19-21 (KJV)

So…. Is this a New Doctrine or not ? Drugs=Occult
Do we have the authority to redefine what Paul wrote because it‘s 2000 years later ?

------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------ --------
Jman wrote:
Follow up: But the connection of witchcraft and drugs - could that connection have been because ancient witches used drugs as poisons - and there be no connection to modern drugs?

Beneficial, modern chemical combinations (drugs) were unknown in the first century so
word usage would not have made the distinction between drugs as poison and drugs as
helpful- because the helpful usage did not yet exist.

So then the first century word 'Pharmakeia' links witchcraft to the first
century drug usage (poisoning). But drug usage has been changed so much by modern
science that the linkage no longer applies.
------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------
Jwbti:
The above appears to be extra Biblical Information, do you have chapter and verse for this ?

Is Strongs definition wrong ?

from <G5332> (pharmakeus); medication (“pharmacy”), i.e. (by extension) magic (literal or figurative) :- sorcery, witchcraft.
—Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary



Ron
Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8339 is a reply to message #8173 ] Wed, 12 October 2011 23:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
wishing34  is currently offline wishing34
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Hi, JBTI


JBTI :
>>> What about the other words in Gal 5 should they be defined differently today ?


Yes if the meaning does not apply for any of the other words--like
what we see w/r pharmakeia.




JBTI :
>>>So…. Is this a New Doctrine or not ? Drugs=Occult


On point with our discussion is “modern medical use of drugs = Occult”

Yes this is a new doctrine that Christendom has not known until us.





JBTI :
>>>Do we have the authority to redefine what Paul wrote because it‘s 2000 years later ?

It is not “redefining” that I am saying.

I am saying that the only ones administering drugs in the first
century were witches so administering drugs (pharmakeia) meant witchcraft back then.
In 2000 years people have learned beneficial uses for drugs that are
not magical and are not witchcraft. Pharmakeia does not apply to the modern, beneficial uses.

I am saying that in Gal 5 when pharmakeia was used it was not in the mind of Paul
nor the mind of God to anticipate down through time 2000 years and use pharmakeia
to refer to the modern scientific application of chemicals in the body – a usage of drugs
that did not yet exist in the first century and was not included in the definition of the
first century word - pharmakeia.






------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------ --------
Jman wrote: 
Follow up: But the connection of witchcraft and drugs - could that connection have been because ancient witches used drugs as poisons - and there be no connection to modern drugs? 

Beneficial, modern chemical combinations (drugs) were unknown in the first century so
word usage would not have made the distinction between drugs as poison and drugs as
helpful- because the helpful usage did not yet exist.

So then the first century word 'Pharmakeia' links witchcraft to the first
century drug usage (poisoning). But drug usage has been changed so much by modern
science that the linkage no longer applies. 
------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------ 
>>>Jwbti:
>>>>The above appears to be extra Biblical Information, do you have chapter and verse for this ?



You quote me giving a hypothetical question and answer as a mechanism to communicate ideas.
To say such a hypothetical must be chapter and verse is not clear thinking on your part.







>>>Jwbti:

>>>from <G5332> (pharmakeus); medication (“pharmacy”), i.e. (by extension) magic (literal or >>>>figurative) :- sorcery, witchcraft.
>>>—Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary

>>>>Is Strongs definition wrong ? 




No not wrong, instead shallow.
It is not a very thorough lexicon.







Jman





Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8340 is a reply to message #8339 ] Thu, 13 October 2011 06:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
grandom  is currently offline grandom
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wishing34 wrote on Wed, 12 October 2011 23:02



I am saying that in Gal 5 when pharmakeia was used it was not in the mind of Paul
nor the mind of God to anticipate down through time 2000 years and use pharmakeia
to refer to the modern scientific application of chemicals in the body – a usage of drugs
that did not yet exist in the first century and was not included in the definition of the
first century word - pharmakeia.




Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.


Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8341 is a reply to message #8173 ] Thu, 13 October 2011 07:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
wishing34  is currently offline wishing34
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Hi Grandom,

Do you try to apply Is 55 when someone says pharmakeia DOES apply to med science?
( the opposite opinion from mine)

Does not that person also claim to know what God meant in Gal 5 ?



------

For that matter is not the study of every verse an attempt to know the mind
of God expressed in that verse?




Is 55 is saying God's ways are different from and superior to human
ways – not that it is impossible for humans to learn/discern God's ways.



Jman







Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8343 is a reply to message #8341 ] Thu, 13 October 2011 14:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
grandom  is currently offline grandom
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wishing34 wrote on Thu, 13 October 2011 07:50



Do you try to apply Is 55 when someone says pharmakeia DOES apply to med science?
( the opposite opinion from mine)



No. I would apply Is 55 to any one who says God was not omniscient when he inspired that verse to apply to the year 2011.

Kinda reminds me of Gen 3 when the serpent asked Eve "yeah has god said", He really didnt mean you would die....

[Updated on: Thu, 13 October 2011 14:29]

Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8344 is a reply to message #8173 ] Thu, 13 October 2011 16:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
wishing34  is currently offline wishing34
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Hi Grandom,

What if my postings here are being used by the
Holy Spirit to ignite a spark that starts a flame
that sets everyone free from a grievous mistake made years
ago with the pharmekeia teaching.



It only takes one who is currently recognized as five fold
to become convicted about pharmakeia.

What we debate here might greatly help God's people
and save lives.



Jman



[Updated on: Thu, 13 October 2011 16:08]

Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8345 is a reply to message #8344 ] Thu, 13 October 2011 16:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JWBTI  is currently offline JWBTI
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Jman wrote:

What we debate here might greatly help God's people
and save lives.
--------------------------------------------------------

Soo True !
It could have saved these lives!


Xanax | Drug deaths now outnumber traffic fatalities in U.S., Times ...

http://articles.latimes.com/2011/sep/17/local/la-me-drugs-ep idemic-20110918


Ron
Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8346 is a reply to message #8173 ] Thu, 13 October 2011 16:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
wishing34  is currently offline wishing34
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Hi JBTI,

I appreciate the link because I have
family who really like the anti-depresent
drugs. Will be helpful.


I assume you realize that I was referring to saving
the lives of believers ( or their children ) who are
afraid to go to medical science because they think
in error that it is occult – going to the devil for their healing.

If they ever come to a place of realizing they lack faith for healing
they could live to fight another day if getting
medical science help were merely seen as the arm if the flesh
and not the devil.



Jman



Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8347 is a reply to message #8173 ] Thu, 13 October 2011 18:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
wishing34  is currently offline wishing34
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Hi,

How did we handle alcohol w/r pharmakeia 30 years ago?

Would seem alcohol is a drug yet the wine at Cana, Timothy
drank wine for his stomach, and the Corinthians got drunk
on the wine from the bread and cup.




Jman




Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8348 is a reply to message #8347 ] Fri, 14 October 2011 18:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
GWB  is currently offline GWB
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If we are going to deal with all chemicals being evil, then let's be thorough.



Chemical reactions, for healing purposes, are wrong according to some. They even open up occult doors, according to the same group of people.


Chemical reactions, for stimulant purposes, are OK because it was not mentioned at FA.


Is it really OK for those who "have to have their coffee, or tea, in the morning to function" people to be commenting about chemical substances being evil?


Caffeine is a stimulant used to manipulate the chemical reactions in the body. If you are not convinced that caffeine addicts are legitimatly as "evil" as insulin, than google caffeine and occult. Those two words have quite a following with self proclaimed pagans.


I guess "mojo" does not apply when you want to stick your head in the sand. "Practical magic" does exists and it is on your local grocery store shelf.

Try dealing with a person who has been addicted to caffeine for years and they are now in a controlled envirnment where they can't have all they want.

Anyone want to throw away their coffee machines and teabags?

Splitting hairs is getting to be exhausting. Rolling Eyes


I'll be OK....I need a cup of tea.




[Updated on: Sat, 15 October 2011 00:11]


Shalom,

GWB

"Be still and know that I am God."
Re: Divine healing - every time, no exceptions [message #8349 is a reply to message #8173 ] Fri, 14 October 2011 19:18 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
wishing34  is currently offline wishing34
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After some Googling . . .

Caffeine is indeed used as a medicine by the medical profession like other drugs

http://science.howstuffworks.com/caffeine3.htm

http://4david.home.xs4all.nl/caffeine.html

http://www.webmd.com/vitamins-supplements/ingredientmono-979 -CAFFEINE.aspx?activeIngredientId=979&activeIngredientNa me=CAFFEINE



Jman



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