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man in authority [message #6072] Mon, 07 September 2009 22:54 Go to next message
wishing34  is currently offline wishing34
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Mathew 20:25-26

25But Jesus called them unto him, and said,
Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles
exercise dominion over them, and they that
are great exercise authority upon them.

26But it shall not be so among you:



------------



Comments?












[Updated on: Sat, 12 September 2009 00:11]

Re: man in authority [message #6073 is a reply to message #6072] Tue, 08 September 2009 02:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sparkles  is currently offline sparkles
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Jesus is calling His disciples to him since they were not happy with the two brethren who had their mother ask Jesus if the boys could sit one on Jesus right hand and the other on the left in the kingdon. So I believe the point Jesus was making in Matt. 20:25-26 as well as Mark 10 42-45 was that yes, there are those who ruled and had authority over the Gentiles, but Jesus had a better way, and that was the way of being a servant. Jesus came the first time as our suffering servant, and now He was telling those who followed Him that he required the same from them, as He also requires the same from us.

Now with saying that I don't believe that Jesus meant a servant was to be weak, but quite the contrary to serve one must be strong in the Lord. We are all called to serve in different capacities. One may serve by being a minister of the gospel and serve the church in that capacity, another may have the gift of helps, and other may serve by encouraging people and the list could go on and on. We can serve people in our daily lives at work, at home, at the store, wherever the Lord has us we can do the work He has called us to do.

What do you think?
Re: man in authority [message #6074 is a reply to message #6072] Tue, 08 September 2009 12:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
wishing34  is currently offline wishing34
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Hi Sage,
Thank you for posting.

My focus is with respect to
Jesus' prohibition of authority
in verse 26.
Re: man in authority [message #6075 is a reply to message #6074] Thu, 10 September 2009 03:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sparkles  is currently offline sparkles
Messages: 246
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I guess I am not sure what kind of authority you are speaking about. I would see this more of an example of how the greatest, for example Jesus, came to serve, and so he showed them how the great among them would also be a servant and not lord their position over others. Such as a minister of the gospel is very much a servant to many, and yet what a great call he has on his life. Jesus tells us in Galatians 5:13 that by love we are to serve one another.
How do you see the verse applies?
Re: man in authority [message #6076 is a reply to message #6072] Thu, 10 September 2009 17:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
wishing34  is currently offline wishing34
Messages: 214
Registered: March 2009
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Hi,
Thanks for responding.



Matt 25;26 But it shall not be so among you:
--------------------------------------------------------

The man in authority issue comes up in how
we organize our churches. The New Testament
pattern involved apostles. We do not have apostles
today so we have ended up with men taking the
authority in each church.

These men had the final authority in decision making,
administered church discipline, defined doctrine
if there was a disagreement, etc. All reasonable
concepts if a bunch of people brainstormed how to
organize a social organization. . . but it is not the
Biblical pattern for the church because it lacks the
role of apostles.

We tried sincerely but we ended up that authority
"is so among us" in disagreement with the verse.
My inquiry seeks the rationalizations to allow
ourselves to have men in authority.
-----------------------

I expect:

Maybe some believe apostles are not for today and
therefore God has changed how the churches operate.

Maybe some say the prohibition to authority only
applied to the 12?

Maybe we just do not know but running the churches
with men in authority is the best we can do until the
apostles show up.

Maybe some believe the Bible is not totally important
and mankind in modern times can now run a church any
way he wants.

Maybe something I have not thought of
.... hence my inquiry.


Re: man in authority [message #6077 is a reply to message #6076] Fri, 11 September 2009 01:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
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Location: Birmingham, AL
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Hey jman,

I think I see where you're coming from, and I agree about the lack of apostles.( I don't know if I've ever known an apostle, I don't think so.) And I sure agree with your assessment of the modern day church>(or at least a whole bunch of them)

In Matt. 20:26 Jesus sure makes it plain that we're not to lord over one another, yet there is an appointed order to the church. Every minister that I've know who was effective as a pastor/teacher/evangelist; was a meek and humble servant, but when anointed to minister, got everyone's respect and attention.

Shepherdship is an excellent example of men lording over others.

btw: do you know of any true apostles?

james


“But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,”
Re: man in authority [message #6080 is a reply to message #6072] Fri, 11 September 2009 03:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
wishing34  is currently offline wishing34
Messages: 214
Registered: March 2009
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Hi James,

Thanks for posting.

No, I do not know of any apostles.
I agree that Shepherdship movement is no good.
--------------------

Here is my view of the New Testament church
organization expressed as a metaphor - a picture
form.

Note: only works with apostles functioning.


------------
first the organizational chart:
Top row = Jesus who has complete and sole authority.
All believers relate directly to Him.

Second row = Every believer. All have equal standing
before God because of the Blood of Jesus.
Not one of them has any authority. They
all operate in gifts to edify the others.
Apostleship is just another gift among many.


----------------
A metaphor of the functioning church:

The believers are represented by a classroom of first graders.
Jesus is represented by the teacher who is not in the classroom-
rather He is in the office where He can see and hear all
via cameras.
An apostle is represented by one of the students.
Elders are represented by a few fourth graders in the same classroom.




The children come in sit in their seats. No activity for a while.
Now some gifts (skills in this metaphor) start to operate.
One boy says I know how to color - he shows the others.
One boy says I know about numbers - TEACHES how to count.
One girl HELPS others to use the pencil sharpener.
Each student edifies the group according to their skill which
stands for the gifts operating to edify the church.

Now the apostle student stands up. He has a unique gift in that
the Teacher directly communicates with him - say by text
message on a phone.
He says "the teacher says to go out to recess."
The kids are unsure to believe him or not. Is he a real apostle?

Apostle student says to verify my message the teacher will now
ring the recess bell three times - Teacher rings 3 times
from the office.

The children have confidence that the apostle speaks for the Teacher
and obey and go out to recess. Note they are submitting/obeying
the Teacher and not the apostle-student.

Notice apostle used his gift to direct the group and the group knew
to believe him because of the signs following from the Teacher.
But the apostle has no authority - just a functioning gift.
He has the gift to say what God wants and all respect it
because of the signs of an apostle following. II Cor 12:12
It could very well be true when the apostle says he is the least
in the kingdom - it is his gift that is special . . . not him.

Notice it is the Teacher who runs the class and uses each student's
skill/gift - only the Teacher is making decisions and in
authority.

Now they need to go to lunch but they are unsure of the way. The
fourth graders(older = elders, and more experienced, and
recognized as successful in school life) say follow us
as we go to lunch ("follow me as I follow Christ"). The
first graders follow like sheep following a shepherd -
(no constraint...nor as lords over the others - I Pet 5:2-3)
They follow willingly recognizing the elders to be good examples.
No one has any authority over anyone else.

======================================
end of metaphor
=====================================







Elders take the lead and are imitated because the believers
recognize their maturity. No authority involved.
Note - King James says "rule" a lot when Greek says "take the lead"


Apostles direct the church in doctrine and set things in order as done
in I and II Cor. Apostleship is one gift among many. Is just
another gift with no authority resting in the man.

Rivals arise to replace the apostle? - Apostle defends his apostleship
by appealing to the signs of an apostle, then challenges the
rivals to see their power and not their words. Defence of
apostleship is based on signs because signs are the validation
that the apostle speaks for God.

Only Jesus has authority.

------------------
A believer goes bad....
Go to him and talk to him.
He won't listen - take a friend.
He still won't listen take it before the whole church.
He still won't listen - the whole church puts him out.
No secrecy, No fear of a single authority man who can control
your eternity.

-----------------------
Church must make a decision.
Be of one mind. I Cor 1:10

That fails - defer, all pray, discuss

Still fails - group yields to the discernment of the elders under
the assumption that they can hear God's will. This
is not authority in action, is assumption they are mature
discerners of God's will.

Elders cannot agree - defer big time because something is really wrong
with the elders. Possibly call the apostle to get
to the bottom of the decision and the elders' problems.

Notice God makes the decision and the church'es challenge is to figure out what
HE wants them to do. No man makes the decision.
No man discerns it on his own.

Notice no secrecy, no inside deals, no political unethical behavior.







[Updated on: Sat, 12 September 2009 00:11]

Re: man in authority [message #6081 is a reply to message #6080] Sat, 12 September 2009 16:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
Messages: 2137
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL
Senior Member
jman,

That is an excellent metaphor, well thought out and simple. I hope more will join in and share what The Lord has shown them.

btw: that's a gift as well, to be able to illustrate a point so others can easily understand...

Thank you


“But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,”
Re: man in authority [message #6085 is a reply to message #6076] Sun, 13 September 2009 15:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sparkles  is currently offline sparkles
Messages: 246
Registered: March 2008
Senior Member
Hi Jman,
Interesting metaphor you presented, I enjoyed reading it and pondering what it has to say.
As far as there being apostles today I would say yes there are, even if we have not seen one or know one. God has His people functioning in His gifts all over the world. Maybe for the time some are hidden since it seems like we have the false prophets and false apostles all over. Read a certain religious magazine and you will see all kinds of advertisements to come to different seminars to see the prophets and apostles. A friend of mine went to one church and they were getting into personal words of prophecy for each other, and there were some that got quite hurt by some of the false words. In saying that I also know God can have someone give a true word of prophecy to someone.

I would agree that in a local assembly all the offices and gifts God has given to the church should be there, but obviously at this point they are not. Maybe we have been too satified with what we have now, and have not cried out to the Lord. Seems like in the United States we have it so good that sometimes we get too complacent with where we are. We have alot of knowledge, but knowledge is not all there is, but we need to have a relationship with Jesus, so we can be led by the Holy Spirit in what we do or say, or where we go.
Re: man in authority [message #6323 is a reply to message #6081] Tue, 24 November 2009 05:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
Messages: 1450
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james wrote on Sat, 12 September 2009 11:36

jman,

That is an excellent metaphor, well thought out and simple. I hope more will join in and share what The Lord has shown them.

btw: that's a gift as well, to be able to illustrate a point so others can easily understand...

Thank you


I agree James.

Think about this... who is more likely to exemplify God's authority in an assembly: the one who grows up in the Church, always faithfully serving with his gifts and with his time, or the one who is brought in from the Seminary's Job-Search Program? A rhetorical question for sure, since most of us would be on the same page here, but a large portion of Churches follow those who command the most respect in the business community or those who have great personal charisma/charm. The "powerful" are put on the pedestal (might makes right!) which is antithetical to the teaching of Jesus.

Blessings,
William


I want to believe!
Re: man in authority [message #6332 is a reply to message #6323] Tue, 24 November 2009 23:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
Messages: 2137
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL
Senior Member
Absolutely, that's why they like to put all those letters of the aphabet around their names...Pay scale: Dr. in front of name and Th.D after, equals big bucks.
Throw in the mention of a 'mega-church', 'as seen on TBN', or 'prophet', and it'll be standing room only... Rolling Eyes

Yeah, they are put on pedestals, now; but the day is coming...


Antithetical? That's what I've missed, having to grab my dictionary to 'rightly discern' what you're saying... Laughing

with a desire to 'serve' others; it means, direct opposite .


“But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,”
Re: man in authority [message #6333 is a reply to message #6332] Wed, 25 November 2009 00:41 Go to previous message
william  is currently offline william
Messages: 1450
Registered: January 2006
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james wrote on Tue, 24 November 2009 17:19


Antithetical? That's what I've missed, having to grab my dictionary to 'rightly discern' what you're saying... Laughing

with a desire to 'serve' others; it means, direct opposite .




Yep, you looked it up in the dictionary... --just like I had to do before posting! <grin>


I want to believe!
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