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Another stab at a really Hot Topic [message #5764] Wed, 20 May 2009 21:38 Go to next message
william  is currently offline william
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Hope you don't mind me splitting this thread off from the Lakeland thread,
we seem to have been drifting!


On Wed, 20 May 2009, James wrote:
>
> And the one-at-a-time wife theology? Well yeah, there are hundreds of
> 'possible interpretations', surely that's not a point one who has been
> taught better would argue, is it?
>

Nope, I'm certainly not! (I don't have one in that thar race either!)

>
> Joyce, Marilyn, Paula, Sharon, Patricia, Gloria....nope, not sent forth
> by God...not because they can't encourage people or quote the Word, but
> because The Word shows that it's not God who has sent them forth. But
> there is such a lack of men standing up and being men(of God) and
> teaching the body of Christ what the Word says, people don't know that
> women aren't suppose to be in these roles.
>

This is definitely an area where I would disagree, not about the names you
mentioned, nor about the fact that folks are not being taught the Word of
God, I agree about that, but I disagree with the blanket statement that
God doesn't send out women equipped with His gifts in public meetings.

I know that there are those who excuse women "being in these roles", by
saying that the men aren't doing their part therefore women who have
stepped up to the plate are semi-approved by God. I'm not with that
crowd.

I think *all* who partake of His Spirit, men, women, boys and girls, are
subject to being led forth to powerfully minister His Word. (I'll say
this for those who didn't follow the Women in Ministry thread, I'm
speaking of ministering with His gifts in a public setting--NOT THE
ELDERSHIP OF THE CHURCH!)

We probably don't want to rehash all of stuff we went over last fall
(unless there is an interest), and I don't expect too much support for my
position, but I do hope everyone will feel free to address any flaws or
contradictions on this topic. Just keep in mind that I'm your brother in
the Lord... I'm not the Pope, I'm not the Pastor, I'm just a brother.

I can hear it now: "Yeah, a brother who has lost his ever-loving
mind!"<grin>

Blessings,
William

Re: Another stab at a really Hot Topic [message #5765 is a reply to message #5764 ] Thu, 21 May 2009 09:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
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I guess what I'd like to see(but I'd be shocked if it happens) is some sisters enter into these discussions...We're not in 'church' and I would encourage some thoughts from...Abiding, GWB, Sage, Capturedbygrace, Rubio, and others. Have all the women decided that what we were taught was in error, or do ya'll still hold to these beliefs? Don't worry about being attacked, I promise I'll keep my muzzle on. Smile I can't see a reason for us guys going over it again unless someone has some new light or revelation that we haven't discussed. (just my opinion, if others feel differently, jump on it)

Oh, the part about a blanket statement that God doesn't send out women equipped with HIS gifts into public meetings... I didn't mean for it to be taken that way, I was speaking of these women such as Myers, Paula White...ect. Could God send out a women to 'minister the gifts' in a public meeting? Well if it's a meeting of women, I'd say for sure, if it's a men's meeting...I'd be hesitate to agree. Can someone share an example or teaching that would back this up?

"...I'm not the Pope, I'm not the pastor, I'm just a brother."

" I can hear it now:"Yeah, a brother who has lost his ever-loving mind!"

<laughing, but don't ever let 'anyone' know that I did...lol>

William, I think you should have your picture taken wearing the Pope's mitre and use it for your avatar.... Laughing

[Updated on: Thu, 21 May 2009 09:42]


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: Another stab at a really Hot Topic [message #5767 is a reply to message #5765 ] Thu, 21 May 2009 10:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sparkles  is currently offline sparkles
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Hi James,
I have enjoyed reading the comments on these subjects. As far as myself, I believe what we were taught was correct. I do believe there is a place for propetess' in our time and believe it is scriptural. Do I believe all the women going around today calling themselves prophets/apostles are the real thing?
Absolutely not! A church a friend use to go to has fallen into the deception of following some of the teachings of these false prophets. They like to give "words" to each other. One person in the church had gone down to a Mike Bickle prayer seminar and came back wanting people in the church to learn how to give words/prophecies to each other. Others have left the church seeing the path it is going.
We are seeing the words of the Lord fulfilled, saying how many will follow the false prophets, and some have lost their love of the truth and are following deceptions. We know the great cost of obeying the Word of God, not compromising the convictions the Lord gave us. It is not always easy to not lie, but we need to speak the truth - always.
I need to get going as I am out of time. I will write more later.
Re: Another stab at a really Hot Topic [message #5768 is a reply to message #5765 ] Thu, 21 May 2009 11:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Abiding
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james wrote on Thu, 21 May 2009 09:18

I guess what I'd like to see(but I'd be shocked if it happens) is some sisters enter into these discussions...We're not in 'church' and I would encourage some thoughts from...Abiding, GWB, Sage, Capturedbygrace, Rubio, and others. Have all the women decided that what we were taught was in error, or do ya'll still hold to these beliefs?


Well, James, I tend to avoid the more controversial topics, but since Moulder refuses to speak for me, I suppose I will make an exception this time. Laughing

Women in leadership in the church? No.
Women ministering God-given gifts. Yes.

I haven't really changed my views over the years from what we were taught at FA except I wouldn't draw the line about women ministering exactly where Brother Freeman did. And it took me years to get to that point.

I'm probably still not entirely recovered from the instance where Brother Freeman publicly rebuked a woman for responding to one of his questions for "anyone". Shocked I open my mouth to sing along with others in church and that's pretty much it. Oh I do greet my neighbors when told to do so. Wink

I do love the regular opportunities God has given me to minister to women though, and I'm thankful to be able to minister to anyone the Lord brings across my path! (Male or female --I also minister to men regularly since I am the mother of grown sons and have an awesome husband who likes to discuss the Bible with me and doesn't require me to be silent. Laughing )

[Updated on: Thu, 21 May 2009 11:12]


Blessings,
Abiding

"I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus."--Phil 3:12
Re: Another stab at a really Hot Topic [message #5769 is a reply to message #5768 ] Thu, 21 May 2009 11:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
grandom  is currently offline grandom
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Abiding wrote on Thu, 21 May 2009 11:05[/quote


I'm probably still not entirely recovered from the instance where Brother Freeman publicly rebuked a woman for responding to one of his questions for "anyone".



I know what you mean Abiding. I think I indicated once before that the sister road to the meeting with Brother JWBTI and myself.As can well be imagined she was devestated. I felt really bad for her. She just was honestly seeking. Well that is past history.

One thing we should probably all remember.
Joel 2:28 "your daughters will prophesy". Hey I`m even encouraged. It says the old men will dream dreams. Smile

So be open for your opportunity to prophesy.

So good to see you sisters joining in. It blesses us.Keep up the posting as you find time.

[Updated on: Thu, 21 May 2009 11:40]

Re: Another stab at a really Hot Topic [message #5770 is a reply to message #5768 ] Thu, 21 May 2009 11:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
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Hallelujah, well if I never accomplish another thing in life, at least I'll (what pride?) know that I was able to get everyone involved in a discussion. Laughing

Abiding wrote:

"Well, James, I tend to avoid the more controversial topics, but since Moulder refuses to speak for me, I suppose I will make an exception this time. :lol:"

Controversial? But William started it.....Ya should'a trained him better... Laughing

Seriously, I am just blessed to see others taking part, please feel free to join in on any topic that interest you.( that sounds weird, beings you have joint ownership in this, here I am encouraging you to post...well, sometimes the cart gets in front of the horse.)(or should I say we put the icing on the cake before we bake it...lol)


Sage wrote:

"...I believe what we were taught was correct."

" It is not always easy to not to lie, but we need to speak the truth- always."


OK, the truth, I didn't pay Sage to write that... Smile

Again I say thanks for speaking up, even if you disagree you're welcome to share what you think.


I wonder if it'd be too much to hope to hear from Rubio...


I just cringe at times when I happen upon some of these women on TBN, but 'truthfully', I cringe at the men as well.

ALRIGHT WILLIAM, 'stab' away...


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: Another stab at a really Hot Topic [message #5771 is a reply to message #5770 ] Thu, 21 May 2009 12:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sparkles  is currently offline sparkles
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James,
Out of curiousity, what did I say that sounds like I don't agree with you? I think it was the part about there being prophetess' in our day, right? I was just wondering.
You brothers are very knowledgeable in the scriptures and it is nice hearing you toss around the various subjects. I have been very blessed and edified by the discussions there have been, and look forward to more and even participating in some.
Re: Another stab at a really Hot Topic [message #5772 is a reply to message #5771 ] Thu, 21 May 2009 12:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
grandom  is currently offline grandom
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Sage
James is a big boy and i know he can speak for himself.


You didnt disgree with anything he said.

He meant in future discussions join in even if you disagree.

I agree whole heartedly. We grow through discussion.

And to think I just bragged on his writting skills. LOL



[Updated on: Thu, 21 May 2009 12:36]

Re: Another stab at a really Hot Topic [message #5773 is a reply to message #5771 ] Thu, 21 May 2009 12:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
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Nothing at all, Sue.

I was just saying that 'even' if you didn't agree, you were welcome to share your thoughts...

I agree with what you said, completely. Including that women can prophesy...


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: Another stab at a really Hot Topic [message #5774 is a reply to message #5773 ] Thu, 21 May 2009 12:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
grandom  is currently offline grandom
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Sorry James.

I thought you was lounging in the pool again. Razz
Re: Another stab at a really Hot Topic [message #5775 is a reply to message #5770 ] Thu, 21 May 2009 13:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Abiding
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james wrote on Thu, 21 May 2009 11:41


Controversial? But William started it.....Ya should'a trained him better... Laughing


Laughing We have a lot of good discussions on controversial topics here at home, but he is much better at debating than I am. Thankfully, we're in agreement the vast majority of the time. (Doesn't stop us from looking at all the different sides of issues though. Wink )

Quote:

Hallelujah, well if I never accomplish another thing in life, at least I'll (what pride?) know that I was able to get everyone involved in a discussion. Laughing


Well done! Keep up the good work! Very Happy I would enjoy participating more and have planned to do so. Sometimes I stay pretty busy taking care of Moulder Smile and all the rest of the family (homeschooling our youngest --the Lord blessed us with another baby after we became grandparents!), plus being involved in ministry opportunities to younger women Wink, etc., I enjoy reading the posts here now though and appreciate what is being shared!


Blessings,
Abiding

"I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus."--Phil 3:12
Re: Another stab at a really Hot Topic [message #5776 is a reply to message #5769 ] Thu, 21 May 2009 13:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Abiding
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grandom wrote on Thu, 21 May 2009 11:37



One thing we should probably all remember.
Joel 2:28 "your daughters will prophesy". Hey I`m even encouraged. It says the old men will dream dreams. Smile

So be open for your opportunity to prophesy.



Amen! Smile

Of course, it might take a major move of God to allow that to happen in our current church. The new pastor announced that one has to run any prophecy or other gift of the Spirit by the pastor or elders first and get permission to share. (It's a very large church.) Since that was announced a few months ago, only one prophecy has been shared and that was by one of the elders.

I think it's because they want to be careful who they let share; the church is so large and they don't know everyone, so they're afraid of something inappropriate, or fleshly, or in error being shared.

On the other hand, they seem fairly quick to invite anyone who wants to come up and help pray for people (laying on of hands Shocked ) to do so, which to me seems kind of scary!

But forgive me for digressing...I know God is faithful and He will bless us with His gifts and opportunities to use them for His glory!




Blessings,
Abiding

"I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus."--Phil 3:12
Re: Another stab at a really Hot Topic [message #5778 is a reply to message #5776 ] Thu, 21 May 2009 14:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
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I know there has to be order in an assembly, especially a large one...b-u-t, that puts a damper on the flow of The Holy Spirit, don't it? Not to critize your pastor, but what does one do IF God gives them a prophecy or word of knowledge or wants to heal someone, say..."hold on Lord while I ask for an audience with the pastor?"

Sorry, but does the gifts manifest through the members at all?
And if they do, how does that work? I know, I know, I compare everything to what I've witnessed 25-30 years ago. Yet the church/assembly (regardless of the size) should still follow the pattern of the NT church. Faith Assembly wasn't exactly a tiny church. And NO, I haven't been in one since that even SEEMS to have the presence of The Holy Spirit, maybe some decent worship music in some, but that's few and far between.

Which brings me back to the question we all have to wrestle with, if the gifts and anointing's not here, then, 'what am I doing here?' One may answer by saying, well God put me here to use me to teach them by word and example of what 'real church' is....but if ya can't freely be lead by The Spirit, then how does one go about fullfilling that purpose?

Again, like I said, just thoughts I have had more times than once.


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: Another stab at a really Hot Topic [message #5781 is a reply to message #5778 ] Thu, 21 May 2009 15:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
GWB  is currently offline GWB
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I went to a church that used to be an offshoot of FA.

I had to whisper my "Word" in his ear before I could give it!!! Rolling Eyes I finally just stopped going. Sad Now, I hear they don't allow tongues because it scares new people! Rolling Eyes Nothing like hiding your light under a bushel. Evil or Very Mad The sheep are being robbed and those responsible will have to give account as to the squelching and control of the meeting.

I used to give Words at FA all of the time and was so blessed when I finally got up my nerve to share my first one. I even ran a couple of them past Dr. Freeman, and he finally told me to be free to share and that I did not have to do that. Very Happy

I also remember the incident concerning that sweet sister.

I think it is sad if there is a question of the gifts being relevant today in church (end time dead church). It is only a matter of order in the meeting and letting the gifts flow.

I love to evangelize. What is the difference doing it behind a pulpit or walking out on the street? I evangelize to men and women. Just because I am behind a pulpit, does that make it wrong? Or, when I get an audience of men and women on the street when evangelizing, do I have to run get a man because it is not "one on one" anymore?

I believe in Divine order in the church, but I always did wonder about this situation now that the topic has come up again!

In my heart, I have a problem with the famous women who are leading millions of people. God gave us order in the church for a reason. For me, the jury is still out on this topic.

Good and thought provoking stuff!

Blessings,

GWB



Re: Another stab at a really Hot Topic [message #5783 is a reply to message #5781 ] Thu, 21 May 2009 16:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
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GWB wrote:

" I love to evangelize. What is the difference doing it behind a pulpit or walking out on the street?"

I can only point you to what The Word of God says, Paul in writting to the church at Corinth, addresses the manner in which women should act in the assemblies. He writes in verse 34 and 35 of chapter 14; 34)"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
35)And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." I'm not the author of that, I just copied it from The Bible.
btw: It could have just as easily have said men living in Alabama named James, keep silent in the churches, then I would have the honor of obeying it...But it doesn't.

I do believe God will bring forth fruit through your obedience to His Word. We're ALL to share The Word and lead others to Jesus by the commissioning he gave us in Mk.16:15.

I didn't set the order of the church,( thank God )but for the body of Christ to come into full maturity, we have to be in line with The Word...it's called dying to ourselves...not my will but thine, Oh Lord.


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: Another stab at a really Hot Topic [message #5787 is a reply to message #5783 ] Thu, 21 May 2009 17:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
GWB  is currently offline GWB
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The Word does say, "Women should be quiet, etc." It is there for a reason. I know I can prophesy and operate in the gifts in Divine order, but the 5-fold offices still belong to the men, IMO.

I would love to hear from a sister as to why my opinion is wrong. Brothers are welcome too, though! Wink

Blessings,

GWB
Re: Another stab at a really Hot Topic [message #5792 is a reply to message #5787 ] Thu, 21 May 2009 18:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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On Thu, 21 May 2009, GWB wrote:

>
> The Word does say, "Women should be quiet, etc." It is there for a
> reason. I know I can prophesy and operate in the gifts in Divine order,
> but the 5-fold offices still belong to the men, IMO.
>
> I would love to hear from a sister as to why my opinion is wrong.
> Brothers are welcome too, though! ;)
>

The whole of the argument that I made last year rests on the distinction I
made (and I believe the Bible supports this distinction) between the
ruling elders(overseers/bishops), and the 5-fold ministry. As I said back
then, there is no need to argue any of the other points. If this
distinction is not a Biblical distinction then all of the other points
loose their relevance.

The definitions are still there in the Church Government Section, complete
with a listing of the Biblical references. (see Scriptural References to
Biblical Terms).

The next thread (Some definitions) go into detail concerning the
distinctions I am speaking of, and why I believe this to be true.

If you (just speaking generally here, not just you!) can show where I'm
being unscriptural there, we can proceed to specifics, otherwise we are
debating two separate issues. We will never be able to come to any sort of
agreement on women in ministry until there is agreement on what exactly is
ministry.

Now, when I say "ministry" you all say "tomahto!" (i.e.
"AUTHORITY-IN-THE-CHURCH-LEADERSHIP"). This IS NOT what I believe and I
give the reasons in that thread (Some definitions).

Blessings,
William

[Updated on: Thu, 21 May 2009 18:57]

Re: Another stab at a really Hot Topic [message #5795 is a reply to message #5778 ] Thu, 21 May 2009 18:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Abiding
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james wrote on Thu, 21 May 2009 14:46



Which brings me back to the question we all have to wrestle with, if the gifts and anointing's not here, then, 'what am I doing here?' One may answer by saying, well God put me here to use me to teach them by word and example of what 'real church' is....but if ya can't freely be lead by The Spirit, then how does one go about fullfilling that purpose?

Again, like I said, just thoughts I have had more times than once.


Exactly. I started to respond to this a couple of times before, but didn't want the thread to get too depressing. Smile I am extremely frustrated concerning our church right now, and our options, but I am trusting in the Lord to show us where He would have us.

Both Moulder and I have opportunities to practice body ministry outside of our church (he's shared about his being asked to teach in a Baptist church and I am able to minister to other women). We are fed richly His Word through our own Bible studies, by making use of our library of excellent Bible study resources, and even by listening to good solid Bible teaching provided online. (None of the popular preachers. Wink )

We're not really going to church right now for us, but for others. Moulder explained it in a nutshell earlier when I was talking to him about it, and I am going to encourage him to post!

Editing this to add --it's not that we think we don't NEED anyone else, we do! We have not arrived by any stretch of the imagination. But the brothers and sisters who encourage us and exhort us happen to be outside our church, not in it.

[Updated on: Thu, 21 May 2009 18:28]


Blessings,
Abiding

"I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus."--Phil 3:12
Re: Another stab at a really Hot Topic [message #5796 is a reply to message #5792 ] Thu, 21 May 2009 18:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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I edited my note GWB, because it sounded like I was calling your position
unscriptural and you were calling my position unscriptural... I meant
"you" in a general sort of way, meaning only that we were talking on two
different wavelengths!

Blessings,
William



Re: Another stab at a really Hot Topic [message #5797 is a reply to message #5795 ] Thu, 21 May 2009 18:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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On Thu, 21 May 2009, Abiding wrote:

>
> We're not really going to church right now for us, but for others.
> Moulder explained it in a nutshell earlier when I was talking to him
> about it, and I am going to encourage him to post!
>

We go to Church so others won't stumble... 1Cor8, Rm14.


Re: Another stab at a really Hot Topic [message #5801 is a reply to message #5797 ] Thu, 21 May 2009 19:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
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If I may make a flipant remark, 'I stay home so I WON'T stumble'.

And that really a sad thing, that Christians say something like that...and it's true.

but i understand, and you have children to consider...


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: Another stab at a really Hot Topic [message #5802 is a reply to message #5801 ] Thu, 21 May 2009 19:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Abiding
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james wrote on Thu, 21 May 2009 19:30

If I may make a flipant remark, 'I stay home so I WON'T stumble'.

And that really a sad thing, that Christians say something like that...and it's true.

but i understand, and you have children to consider...


(Am I allowed to laugh at your flipant remark?) Ok, I really get what you're saying because I avoid watching preachers on TV so I don't get irritated at them and become critical and possibly sin!

And it is sad. All of it. But I'm thankful there ARE Christians out there who love the Lord, hunger for His Word, and want to put it into practice in their lives.

Our children are another reason why we go to church. (We try to pick the best out of our options and trust God there!)

There are a few good things about the pastor there --he believes that healing is in the atonement, he's a prayer warrior, and takes spiritual warfare seriously. He's a former street preacher, he says, and just in the past few months since he's been in our church, a large number of people have been saved.

Also, the corporate praise and worship can be really good. (When they don't break into "You are so beautiful....to me...Yes, you are so beautiful to me...." ("secular song" turned into a worship opportunity? Doesn't do anything for us, but then it reminds me of an old commercial on TV.)

However, I'm thinking Moulder should check out the new Cowboy Church in our area. Our youngest wants to go there because someone said they allow animals! Laughing I'm afraid I wouldn't have the right clothes to wear though... Rolling Eyes Laughing


Blessings,
Abiding

"I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus."--Phil 3:12
Re: Another stab at a really Hot Topic [message #5803 is a reply to message #5802 ] Thu, 21 May 2009 20:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
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Yeah, somehow I don't see Joe Cocker thinking about Jesus when he was recording that song, 'You Are So Beautiful'.

I can just see children in their little Sunday School classes pulling out hamsters, kittens, and puppys.


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: Another stab at a really Hot Topic [message #5804 is a reply to message #5781 ] Thu, 21 May 2009 22:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sparkles  is currently offline sparkles
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"I love to evangelize. What is the difference doing it behind a pulpit or walking out on the street? I evangelize to men and women. Just because I am behind a pulpit, does that make it wrong? Or, when I get an audience of men and women on the street when evangelizing, do I have to run get a man because it is not "one on one" anymore?"

I also enjoy evangelizing, and getting into discussions with men on various topics. I believe God gave us a storehouse full of truths to help us in our daily lives, and also to share and help others, including men as the Lord gives opportunity. I also believe the Lord has set a certain order in the local assembly (church) to follow. As Brother Freeman use to say: he wasn't any better than anyone else, just had a different call on his life." The wife/mother at home is just as important to the kingdom of God as the man who stands up and expounds on the word of God, just different giftings and calling. As we have heard it said: It is level at the foot of the cross.

I know many Godly women who have more discernment than most men, but that does not give them the okay to stand in the pulpit and preach/teach.
Personally I like the idea of men leading the church and in the home, but at the same time it does not give the women an excuse to not know the Word so she can't discern the good from evil.

We don't need a mans covering to share the gospel of Jesus Christ, but in the local assembly I believe God put the man in the position of leadership, just like in the home. I would not want that responsibility, as it is an awesome thing to have to stand before the Lord one day and give an account to how he led the sheep of God, or worse, led them into compromise and error and deception.

As we all yield ourselves to the Lord there will be people we are to share with, male and female. Sometimes I think it is just a matter of obedience to the Word to have the men be in leadership in the local assembly, just because that is what the Word says.

As one denominational minister said to me once: As you get more and more women in leadership positions in the churches you will see the men start to stay home and just let the women run things. This man was definitely against women in preaching/eldership positions in the church.
Re: Another stab at a really Hot Topic [message #5806 is a reply to message #5804 ] Fri, 22 May 2009 09:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
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I have attended or visited (not for long) 'churches' that were ran by women, they either had it set up as both the pastor and his wife went by the title of 'pastors', and took turns preaching; or the women just told the men what to do. I have witnessed a Jezebel spirit at work through women claiming to be prophetess' and watched them manipulate leadership as well as the whole assembly. Jesus knew exactly what would happen if women were given free reign in the churches. (That's not in any way making excuses for the spineless men who allow it, they'll have to answer to God for their actions or lack thereof.)(nor is it a condemnation of women in general)

The pattern of the church set forth by God in the Bible is clear, it only becomes clouded when we try to find a way to make it says what we want it to, or make it fit our experiences.


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: Another stab at a really Hot Topic [message #5807 is a reply to message #5806 ] Fri, 22 May 2009 10:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
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William,

I went back to 'church government' and reread your notes on the conception of leadership. It is biblically sound(imo) and informative, and something at the end caught my eye helping me understand a bit more about where you may be coming from. You said that this had always been a favorite area of study and interest for you, so I can see more of why you're so passionate about it.

I would agree with everything you're saying up until the point of, where do we reconcile I Corth.14:34-35 with women addressing or teaching 'public meetings'. Maybe you're referring to meetings outside of 'church', thus making the 'letter' of what Paul wrote not applicable, since they wouldn't be in 'church'. Is this what you're saying? Maybe a setting like a study group outside of the assembly, and a woman shares openly her thoughts or even expounds upon the scriptures... I certainly can see that, and would agree that there's nothing wrong with that. Am I understanding you at all? Hot or cold ?.....lol


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Re: Another stab at a really Hot Topic [message #5809 is a reply to message #5807 ] Fri, 22 May 2009 13:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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On Fri, 22 May 2009, James wrote:


>
> I would agree with everything you're saying up until the point of, where
> do we reconcile I Corth.14:34-35 with women addressing or teaching
> 'public meetings'. Maybe you're referring to meetings outside of
> 'church', thus making the 'letter' of what Paul wrote not applicable,
> since they wouldn't be in 'church'. Is this what you're saying? Maybe a
> setting like a study group outside of the assembly, and a woman shares
> openly her thoughts or even expounds upon the scriptures... I certainly
> can see that, and would agree that there's nothing wrong with that. Am I
> understanding you at all? Hot or cold ?.....lol
>

I had decided not to respond anymore because, almost without exception,
you all have responded with the premise that I'm referring to Church
leadership. This exactly mirrors the trend in the Women in Ministry
thread last fall, even though I constantly and consistently explained that
I was not speaking to the issue of women in leadership. But you seem to
be getting what I'm saying in the above quote... maybe I'm not all washed
up in trying to teach after all!!<grin>

Let me try this again. If one takes the position that all of the gifts
are leadership/overseer gifts, and you assume that God does not allow a
woman "bishop" (great term, often misunderstood, but Biblical
nonetheless!) or Church leader, then any woman who claimed to have a
ministry gift, be it teaching, evangelism, exhortation, etc., would not
have received that gift from God. Case closed. That is almost exclusively
the position that you all have taken. It is a logical position -- if your
premise is right.

This is why I have stated over and over that if you take that position,
the position that gifts equal authority in the Church, there isn't any
reason for me to say anymore on the subject.

I don't believe that gifts equal leadership. I don't believe that a
teaching gift equals authority over, nor the usurpation of authority over
the leadership within a Church.

So, that said, I do believe that a woman can have the gift of teaching. I
don't believe that it is a contradiction to God's ordained order, nor do I
believe that her gift somehow threatens 'the powers that be'.

In fact, I'll go out on a limb here and tell you that I've learned (been
taught) much by the teaching gifts that some women have! <gasp!>

I use the same criteria in judging the teachings of women that I use when
judging teaching from men. I'm not threatened by it.

If I were the leader of a Church, I don't believe that listening to a
woman teach would be a usurpation of 'my authority'. I would treat any
error that was postulated by a woman in exactly the same manner that I
would a man. But I digress here, as I don't want to imply that I'm
defending women teaching WITHIN THE CHURCH. I have some thoughts on this
but I'm not ready to get into that area because I would consider it
progress just to get the point across that having gifts does not
automatically equal having authority.

Gifts are personal... sure, they affect others, but having a gift from God
doesn't mean the gift is always used. The gift is a transaction between
God and the person who receives the gift.

Authority and leadership in Christianity is a completely different
situation. One who has authority or leadership may have any or all of the
ministry gifts, but their authority or overseership is inexorably yoked to
a particular group. Take away the group and there is no authority,
nothing to oversee, hence this 'office' owes its existence to the group.

To say it another way, I may have the gift of prophecy; if there were no
people to listen to the prophecy then I might prophesy to the hills and
mountains (Ezk6). The prophetic gift isn't dependent upon any group, it
is a gift from God to me. (Obviously to be really effective you'd need
someone to hear, but the gift... the gift that God gives, resides within
me. You could have the gift of tongues and never use it... of course
you might face the same fate as the man who didn't use his talents, but it
doesn't change the fact that the gift is a transaction between God and the
recipient.)

On the other hand, there is no such thing as an overseer/bishop with
nothing to oversee! There is no personal gift of authority... except
maybe over demons!

Interviewer: "What do you do?"

Man: "Oh, I'm a pastor!" (I'll use pastor as a term for bishop, even
though it isn't Biblically correct to do so! I'm yielding to modern
usage.)

Interviewer: "Who do you pastor?"

Man: "Well, I don't have anyone that I'm actually pastoring..."

Interviewer: Huh? "I thought you said you were a pastor?"

Man: "God gave me the 'gift' a pastor gift."

Interviewer: "And you don't have anyone to pastor?"

Man: "No".

Interviewer: "Are you crazy?"

Man: "Of course not!", "I'm in the 'office'."

Interviewer: "Where is your 'office'?"

Man: "The 'office' isn't a building?"

Interviewer: "Who did you say gave you this 'office'?"

Man: "God."

Interviewer: "Oh..."


Ridiculous? Right! Okay, let's continue... same interviewer...


Interviewer: "Do you have a gift?"

Woman: "Yes, I have the gift of teaching."

Interviewer: "How does that work?"

Woman: "God has blessed me with a gift to be able to express His Word in
such a way that others understand."

Interviewer: "How so?"

Woman: "When God blessed me with His Holy Spirit, He illuminated my mind
and I'm able to understand His plan for mankind. This plan is unfolded in
the Old Testament with His revelation to His chosen people the Hebrews.
He taught them the truth of His Holiness by making distinctions between
the clean and unclean.

The Hebrews sometimes missed the important spiritual aspects of the
revelation and reduced it to a system of dos & don'ts, instead of seeing
the deeper truth of the possibility of being reconciled to the Holy God
that created us. He showed them the seriousness of sin, and how sin was
the reason for the rift between Himself and man.

He also taught them that His justice demanded that sin be punished.
Through this He revealed another aspect of His nature... Love. He
actually taught them that because His Holiness required a punishment for
sin, a substitute must die in the place of the sinners so that the sinner
could be reconciled, and partake once again of His presence.

Sin separates a person from God and unless that sin is somehow dealt with
man would perish. Because God's nature is also Love (not just Holy and
Just) He took the initiative and made a way for man to be reconciled to
Himself... His Love provided a way that man could not provide for himself.

This is pure Love in action! Since He couldn't deny an aspect of His
nature that requires separation from sin (and by extension, the sinner) He
provided a way in which man could be reconciled... a substitute would
need to die in the place of the sinner. This would satisfy His Holiness
and at the same time exhibit His Love for His creation!

In the OT, He taught that His people could obtain this reconciliation by
sacrificing innocent blood. This was what the sacrificial system
described in the OT was all about. It was designed to show them that one
had no hope for reconciliation unless his sin was punished. He revealed
that this was possible through the innocent dying for the guilty.

He showed that for this reconciliation to be permanent an actual man had
to die. Since no man was qualified as a substitute (since all men have
sinned) He sent His own Son as a perfectly sinless Man who would die on
the behalf of all of mankind. This man is Jesus... you've heard of Him?"

Interviewer: "Yes, I've heard... but I've never understood until now."

Woman: "Hearing about this wonderful news isn't enough, you must receive
God's Gift by repenting for your own sins and acknowledging Jesus as your
own substitute. Then you can experience this fellowship with God that He
took upon Himself to provide. Do you want to receive this wonderful Gift?

Interviewer: "Yes, yes I do!"

Intermission:

Interviewer: "WoW! Do you teach this in Church?"

Woman: "No, I'm not allowed... but I teach whenever and to whomever will
listen."

Interviewer: "So you have a gift to teach?"

Woman: "Yes, yes I do!"

Woman (turning to the mixed audience): "Is there anyone else who would
like to receive this wonderful Gift?"


Hopefully this will help to illustrate the difference between a ministry
gift and overseership.

Blessings,
William


Re: Another stab at a really Hot Topic [message #5820 is a reply to message #5809 ] Sun, 24 May 2009 23:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
GWB  is currently offline GWB
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If a woman has the authority to stand in front of "the assembly" and teach, what happens when/if she happens to teach error? Is she placed on the same level of the five-fold concerning correction or even discipline concerning repercussions? She should be!

If she is holding a five-fold "job" and under the same restraints and liberties of these offices, isn't she stepping into the shoes of every other office of a man as far as leadership and all of the consequences of holding that office?

Where does the "gray" area stop as far as her responsibility in the judgement concerning teachers?

Because of this, you brothers are more than welcome to be operating in such serious positions. Smile Just let me speak to women (ladies luncheons) and be accountable for this on judgement day.

Blessings,

GWB
Re: Another stab at a really Hot Topic [message #5823 is a reply to message #5820 ] Mon, 25 May 2009 08:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
Messages: 1186
Registered: January 2006
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On Sun, 25 May 2009, GWB wrote:


>
> If a woman has the authority to stand in front of "the assembly" and
> teach, what happens when/if she happens to teach error? Is she placed on
> the same level of the five-fold concerning correction or even discipline
> concerning repercussions? She should be!
>
> If she is holding a five-fold "job" and under the same restraints and
> liberties of these offices, isn't she stepping into the shoes of every
> other office of a man as far as leadership and all of the consequences
> of holding that office?
>
> Where does the "gray" area stop as far as her responsibility in the
> judgement concerning teachers?
>

The Bishop/Overseer is responsible for the things that are taught in the
assembly. If error creeps in through teaching, exhortation, prophesy, or
even a testimony, he is responsible for dealing with it. (Rev 2-3)

Your second statement doesn't make sense to me. Having a gift doesn't
mean you step into anyone's shoes... the ministry gifts are for ministry.
On the other hand, leadership is by *appointment*.

A leadership position within the church is oftentimes a paid position...
nothing wrong with this, they have a lot of responsibilities.

Having a ministry gift is not a paid position within the church. Can you
imagine the problems you would encounter with a paid staff of prophets?
And what would happen if one found out that the other was getting paid
more?? Not a pretty picture!

For those who still cannot grasp the concept of a distinction between
ministry gifts and leadership positions, let me encourage you to do a word
study. I've got most of the definitions in the Church Government section
already, but it might be better if you did it on your own. I didn't come
to my conclusions on a whim, nor was it through "revelation"... I believe
what I believe because I see this concept presented in the Word.

I've got no axe to grind, no filly in the race, nothing to gain beyond the
joy of knowing that God's Word is still an effective remedy against the
traditions of men.

Blessings,
William

Re: Another stab at a really Hot Topic [message #5830 is a reply to message #5823 ] Tue, 26 May 2009 18:05 Go to previous message
GWB  is currently offline GWB
Messages: 713
Registered: March 2008
Location: Louisville, Ky area
Senior Member
Hey Moulder,

>Your second statement doesn't make sense to me. Having a gift >doesn't
>mean you step into anyone's shoes... the ministry gifts are >for ministry.
>On the other hand, leadership is by *appointment*.


This statement made things begin to click for me about this topic! Shocked

I am doing that word study you suggested.

I am just so tired Dead of going to "meetings" where there is promise and then a/the woman/women kill everything.

Blessings,

GWB
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