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Opening Salvo in a Just War Debate! [message #509] Tue, 06 March 2007 23:34 Go to next message
william  is currently offline william
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There was a ten year old girl who lived on a farm with her farming family... she wrote:

Quote:

It was a clear day without a speck in the sky. I was playing house with my sisters upstairs.

Mother had gone to the field to get some eggplants. As she was going out, she told us: "Make a fire in the clay charcoal stove at eleven." But we were so excited that, even when the clock struck eleven times, none of us stood up. We were totally absorbed in playing.

Casually I looked up at the window. Just at that moment, there was a lightning-like flash.

"Oh--" I said. My body staggered. The next moment, I was pinned under the house. I could not move at all. The harder I tried to escape, the more pain I felt. I had to keep still and watch for my chance. Then I saw my two elder sisters outside. I was so glad.

In my joy I cried: "Help me! Help me!"

They immediately came running and tried to pull me out. But the latticed bamboo which supported the mud wall separated us. Pulled or pushed, it could not be removed.

My eldest sister encouraged me in a faltering voice: "Be patient, will you? Mother and Father will be back soon. I'll bring someone to help us. Understand?" She ran away.

A small portion of the outside world could be seen through the latticed bamboo. I stared at it with my eyes wide open, waiting for Mother and Father.

Some time later, my eldest sister came running with several sailors. I was rescued by their help.

Standing outside, I was astonished. Although it had been such a beautiful day, it was now a terrible day, with black clouds winding and wriggling all over the sky.

I tottered and tried to walk towards the air-raid shelter. Then a low cry came from under the house.

"Help me! --Somebody!"

It was the voice of my younger brother.

My eldest sister seemed to be the first one to notice his cry. She immediately went running to the spot and pulled him out after removing a lot of roof tiles.

Then, a baby's cry came from the opposite direction. It was the voice of my two-year-old sister, trapped by falling walls. I hurried to the spot and found her crying fiercely, her legs pinned under a huge beam.

Together with the sailors, we tried to remove it, but the beam would not move an inch. With pain in her squeezed legs, my sister was crying and wriggling, her arms floundering. What in the world should we do--?

The sailors began to give up.

"We cannot make it." Some of the neighbors came to ask for their help, and they went running away to the nearby crushed house to rescue other buried men. Only we children were left behind.

What in the world was Mother doing in the field? Please, please come back soon. Why didn't Father come back? My litter sister's legs would be torn off--. I was completely at a loss, and the only thing I could do was to look around on my tiptoes.

I saw someone dashing towards us in the distance. Disheveled hair. A woman. Looked naked. A purple colored body. She called to us in a loud voice.

Oh my!--It was Mother.

"Mother--" we cried. We felt so reassured.

Here and there, the houses began to flame up.

One of our neighbors appeared from nowhere, pulled the beam up with all his might and main, trying to remove it from across my sister's legs. But it remained as firm as a rock. He drew a deep breath of disappointment and said in a sincerely sorry tone: "I'm sorry but we must give up." He bowed and went away.

A blaze came up quite nearby. Mother's face went ashy pale. Father had not come back yet. Mother was looking down at my little sister. Tiny eyes looked up from below. Mother's eyes looked around, investigating the way the beams were piled up.

Then Mother got into an opening left beneath the beam and, placing her right shoulder under a portion of it, bit her lower lip tightly.

"Uhhhhh--"

She strained herself. Rattling sounds came out, and the beam was lifted a little. My little sister's legs were freed. My eldest sister quickly pulled her out. Mother came out with a leap and hugged her tightly to her breast.

After a while, as if we suddenly realized what had happened, we children burst out crying. At that, Mother squatted on the ground with an air of abstraction.

Then I realized for the first time how my mother looked. She had been hit by the blast as she was picking eggplants to feed us at lunch. She was almost naked. Her coat and trousers were burnt and torn to pieces. Her hair had turned to reddish-brown, and was shrunken and torn as if she had had too strong a permanent. She got burnt all over the body. Her skin was red and greasy. The skin of her right shoulder, the portion which bore and lifted the beam, was gone, revealing bare flesh, and scarlet blood which was constantly oozing out.

Mother fell exhausted on the ground. At that moment, Father ran staggering up to us. He had been seriously burned, too.

Mother began to feel pain. After groaning and struggling, she passed away that night.*



* The ten year old girl was named Michiko Ogino. She lived 1.5 kilometers from the hypocenter in Hiroshima on August 6, 1945.

From: Give Me Water: Testimonies of Hiroshima and Nagasaki




I bring up this story to offer a sometimes forgotten aspect in the 'just war" debate.

It has been much in vogue to ask the question "What would Jesus do?", well, I for one would like to know what just-warriors think Jesus would do if He were sitting in the plane and had been ordered to open the hatch that contained the bomb? (Base the answer on His own teachings, please. It might help if you start by explaining why He would be in the plane in the first place.)

I find it fascinating that it seems obligatory to ask the pacifist what he would do if his wife were being raped, or if his children were being threatened, but let a pacifist bring up an "emotional" true to-fact-real situation, and the teeth are barred. (Hopefully not here! <grin> But it usually happens when the subject is broached!).

I find it equally fascinating that Christians are willing to dismiss whole portions of Scripture when it goes against a fleshly nature, or a nationalistic spirit. God forbid that anyone think that they were "chicken"... or worst--a lamb. These same folk, who would never normally think about bringing up an OT Scripture, nevertheless stumble over themselves in their haste to bring up God's war-like qualities in the OT.

Well what would Jesus do if someone challenged Him on His teachings? Well, I'll tell you what He did. He permitted Himself to be led to the slaughter. He permitted His own flock (wife and bride) to be scattered, martyred, killed with the sword, reviled. And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment: They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented; (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise...


That is what Jesus did.

--William





I want to believe!
Re: Opening Salvo in a Just War Debate! [message #511 is a reply to message #509] Thu, 08 March 2007 05:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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Hombre wrote on Wed, 07 March 2007 18:55

...so now I'm supposed to feel sorry for the nice little Japanese girl, without remembering how many American daddies died defending our little boys and girls from harm. Hey, the story sounds familiar. A culture still heaving in the throes of its transformation from a medieval feudal empire to modernity in one generation or less, decides to wreak havoc in the world to extend the reach of its' empire and belief system through force and without regard to, or respect for others.


Feeling sorry is of course optional, but following our Commander in Chief is not. A charge of insubordination leveled at the would-be-follower of the Prince of Peace might be cause for concern, for did He not say, in Matthew 5:39 "But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also."

Now if one labors under the banner of a "Christian nation," I could well see how defending the "little ones" of such a nation might be considered noble, even praiseworthy. But if we err in our assessment, and find out that this nation is no more justified (by its commitment to Christ) than, say the Canaanites, or Philistines, we might find that we are fighting for a lost cause. No?

Surely though, a nation that, as you say, "decides to wreak havoc in the world to extend the reach of its' empire", (in a manner not unlike the Romans of Jesus' time) would need to be taught a lesson by the more civilized "Christian" barbarians, right?

Hombre wrote on Wed, 07 March 2007 18:55

That's what bullies do. Generally, they're real stupid and selfish, and they don't stop until someone stops them.

You have your neighborhood variety and you have your spoiled little demi-gods like Kim Jong Illness, Sodom Hussein, A-minorDinnerJab and our Latin hothead Chavez-ski.


True, you do have a wide variety of world kingdoms; some more like their father than others, but all under the control and direction of Satan.

But again, who but a bully would go around smiting you on the cheek? Or do you suggest, that because they are bullies, we can ignore Jesus' commands?

Moulder wrote

It has been much in vogue to ask the question "What would Jesus do?",
Hombre wrote on Wed, 07 March 2007 18:55

....STOP THE TAPE!

The answer to this question is a puzzler, because it would assume that everyone knows what Jesus would do.
In the religious mans mind, Jesus would do, whatever his/her denomination taught them.



Well, shucks. you've got me there. Almost all of them (with only a few notable exceptions) see it the same way. They believe and teach retaliation, whenever they are personally threatened, or whenever their beloved "Christian nation" is threatened.

They aren't hypocritical or two-faced about it either; they simply do not have a left cheek!

Now one wonders how such a specific admonition from Jesus can be explained away? Idunno, you tell me. You can either use the denominational explanation, or if you want, the Catholic view, (there isn't much difference).

Hombre wrote on Wed, 07 March 2007 18:55

Religious groups are so divided in every area of spirituality as well as the practical application of scripture, that one could end up with a thousand different answers....and besides, it really doesn't matter what Jesus would do, since He's God, and whatever He would do would be right. The question really is: What would YOU do based upon what the Bible teaches concerning Jesus?...that is...if you're a Christian. For anyone else the point is moot.


A thousand different answers? I think not. It is the same answer, wrapped up in whatever denominational/Catholic wrapping paper they use at Christmas time. (You know... the one with baby Jesus in the manger that says "Peace on Earth".)

I do agree that whatever Jesus would do is right, but I also think that whatever He tells us to do would be right as well... don't you think?

Quote:


moulder wrote on Tue, 06 March 2007 17:34

...well, I for one would like to know what just-warriors think Jesus would do if He were sitting in the plane and had been ordered to open the hatch that contained the bomb? (Base the answer on His own teachings, please. It might help if you start by explaining why He would be in the plane in the first place.)


That's a really good point. We should roll over and play dead, and maybe the bad guys will go away, because Jesus probably wouldn't push the red button...or would He?


He probably would, if... well, I'd better quote Him:

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

... if His kingdom was of this world, and if the US was that kingdom, you'd have a good point. We would certainly be as justified in cutting off the ears of the servants of any kingdom that dared thwart our will. Or, as the example suggests, drop the bomb.

Hombre wrote on Wed, 07 March 2007 18:55

I read in my Bible that God is sovereign and that EVERYTHING has been predestined according to His will.


Now hold on just a doggone minute! Let me check my Bible...

uh..., okay, it says the same thing. Whew! I thought for a moment we were using different Bibles. That would explain everything. Now if we can just stick to the red letters (you do have the red-letter edition, right?) in ascertaining Jesus' commands to us, we will make a lot of progress.

Hombre wrote on Wed, 07 March 2007 18:55

We also know that there is Gods' perfect will,and there is Gods' permissive will. We as Christians want to strive to live within God's perfect will, rather than simply enjoying His grace while we continue on doing whatever it is that we please. But we really need a definition of Gods' perfect will in order to draw a conclusion, but I find that to be very difficult to do, once we enter the area of global politics and Gods' direction of those.


Jesus/God tells us what He requires of us as Christians living in the kingdom of this world. Jesus is not against war, in fact, He states it as follows:

Joh 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

The OT nation of Israel was a Theocracy, America doesn't come close... neither does any other worldly kingdom. The Hebrew people, God's chosen people, were the apple of His eye and He, as their leader, gave instructions on how war was to be conducted against all who "knew not the Lord". His Kingdom, AT THAT TIME, was physically represented by the nation of Israel. No other kingdom and no other people can lay claim to that statement.

To continue... Jesus (the OT "Yahweh"), the LION of the tribe of Judah, came to His own people, who, after years of exile and chastisements were still in a backslidden state, He came as the Lamb of God to make the way back to Himself apparent to His people (the diminishing-reflection of the once glorious Kingdom of God on earth) and they rejected Him.

By His life and teaching, He explained clearly what requirements He expected of those who would follow Him--those who would now bear His name in the midst of that (now this) crooked generation.

You see these same principles re-enforced by the teachings of Paul, and the rest of the disciples of Jesus, and it is a message of non-resistance. Non-resistance (not passivity) toward all of the physical kingdoms of this world. Non-resistance toward all *individuals* who, when united, make up the kingdoms of this world. He tells us both as individuals and corporately, that His Kingdom is not now (to this present hour) of this world, and gives plenty of instruction on how we are to conduct ourselves in the worldly kingdom we occupy, as strangers and pilgrims.

As strangers and pilgrims passing through, we are given clear instructions on our attitude towards the worldly kingdoms. Respectfully praying for our worldly leaders because they are His servants in withstanding the onslaught of anarchy. The present governments are instruments in His Hand, as were the nations in the OT period, and just as they were used to further His purposes concerning Israel, they are being used now.

But lets not confuse those kingdoms with His kingdom, which now only has representation as we seek to live our lives as Jesus commanded. Our battle now is not against flesh and blood, but it is a spiritual battle, and it will be won or lost (at least on a personal level) by our recognition of its spiritual nature and our obedience to our Leader's explicit instructions on how we are to conduct ourselves.

If one believes, for instance, that American (insert your own country here) is a Christian nation, then it might be arguable that we should fight, just as the Hebrews fought, in maintaining "righteousness" the world over, not to mention against our neighbor who may be involved in paganism. In that case our battle would be against flesh and blood and force might be a viable option in our arsenal against evil. The crusades can be justified with that kind of thinking. But so far, all of our weapons are "spiritual", and He hasn't opened for us the arsenal that contains the physical weapons. If He has, then please let me know... I want to get my gun.

I will purposely avoid speaking to those who see their calling in life as a participant in the machinations of the worldly kingdoms, I have nothing to say, except that one day a stone cut without hands will destroy it all...

Da 2:34f Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces. Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

The above taken with the instructions of Jesus below is worthy to be read by all who name the name of Christ:

Mt.24:6f And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake.

10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Hombre wrote on Wed, 07 March 2007 18:55

We can see from the book of Revelation, that eventually God will have His fill of being nice to those who despise Him and His ways, and He will judge the earth, and render revenge upon those. In the meantime, are we to assume that He is not The Grand Sovereign behind the scenes, directing the rise and fall of nations? God has been, and is now, pushing the red buttons toward His end goal, which ultimately, will glorify HIm. We are told that some are brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed; while those whom He calls, he saves, justifies and will ultimately glorify,
through the offering of Himself for our sins, upon the cross, without regard to anything they personally have ever done, be it for good or evil. God is sovereign.


Yes, but that will presumably be a time when Jesus can say to us: Now My kingdom has arrived, My servants can fight! (He seems to do it all with that Sword coming from His mouth, so there may not be a whole lot left for us to do!)

Hombre wrote on Wed, 07 March 2007 18:55


One can then make a point, as the Calvinists, that since everything is already decided, and that we are simply doing whatever it is that God has already predetermined,
there really isn't any point in thinking about it, since we're pre-programmed to do His will, fullfilling His grand plan, be it for good or evil.

...so, in essence I think that I can safely conclude, that, not only was God there in the plane, but also the teaching of sovereignty would conclude that the dropping
of the bomb was predestined, as was it's development for that purpose. ...of course, that would also conclude that God had a finger in 9/11 too, as Pat Robertson
has said, to the dismay of many.



Sounds like a little hyper-Calvinism to me. That kind of theology can make it easy to say that the old devil is just God in disguise.

Hombre wrote on Wed, 07 March 2007 18:55


So then the question is once again, not whether Jesus would pull the trigger, but what would we do?

Is He not our example to follow?

moulder wrote on Tue, 06 March 2007 17:34

I find it fascinating that it seems obligatory to ask the pacifist what he would do if his wife were being raped, or if his children were being threatened, but let a pacifist bring up an "emotional" true to-fact-real situation, and the teeth are barred. (Hopefully not here! <grin> But it usually happens when the subject is broached!).


Well, William, you do know that killing a slug is not one of the un-forgive-ables, don't you?
This is indeed a plaguing question. Suppose one is being persecuted for the sake of righteousness, or for the name of Jesus. That's a whole lot easier to handle in principle, than being assaulted by a thug in a dark alley who is only interested in the $10 bill in your pocket, or your ipod or whatever, without regard to whether one is a Christian or not. If a thug knew you were a Christian, it might just make you that much
more of a target, because he/she/it will assume that you won't fight back.


So are you saying it is alright to fight the thug as long as he doesn't know you are a Christian, or if it has nothing to do with Christian principles?

And, pray tell, where on earth would the thug get the arcane idea that a Christian wouldn't fight back???????????????????

Aren't most wars justified by denominational/Catholic thinking? My cause/nation is more righteous than your cause/nation so you'd better duck, here comes the holy atomic bomb that will wipe out all you slugs.

I suppose that if, upon signing up for the army, one could lay aside their Christianity, it would pretty much give them a pass then? Surely the government will ultimately take the blame for bad policies and the soldier is only called to follow orders.

If you happen to shoot another Christian in the process of killing bad guys, you could always say, "God willeth it".

Hombre wrote on Wed, 07 March 2007 18:55


Personally, my solution to this problem has been to simply trust the Lord.


Common ground. Amen.

Matthew 10:16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

Blessings,
William

[Updated on: Thu, 08 March 2007 22:01]


I want to believe!
Re: Opening Salvo in a Just War Debate! [message #514 is a reply to message #511] Fri, 09 March 2007 20:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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You mean to tell me that you got my blood pressure up for nothing?

You scoundrel.

I figured you were considering sending your resume to the DoD and needed to justify doing so.

I'll have more to say later... you'd better keep your gun cocked and loaded.

I was reminded of the scene in the movie Brian's Song where Piccolo was taking a lot of heat for rooming with Gale Sayers (who was Black). They are sitting at a table and Piccolo is telling Sayers about how many derogatory letters he had been getting, condemning him, as a white person, rooming with a black person, and he whips out one of the letters and starts reading some of the things he's accused of... low down, stinking, blah, blah, blah, ---blank-loving, etc. etc. etc., and as he finishes the letter he pauses and then reads the sign-off... Love, Mom

With that, I'll sign-off,
Love,
William


I want to believe!
Re: Opening Salvo in a Just War Debate! [message #516 is a reply to message #514] Sat, 10 March 2007 01:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mark L  is currently offline Mark L
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.....to anyone reading this thread,
you need to understand that:
This is a tongue in cheek parody

It took me a while to figure that out. I started reading your response and I thought to myself if this is how you deal with your friends how do you deal with your enemies!


I don't know what kind of response you're looking for here... but here's mine. (sorry I don't have time for a tongue in cheek thingy though)
I responded to a post on factnet with the following response

Quote
Thanks for posting that. I'm going to watch it. I am an evangelical xian who is not part of the right wing or the loony left. I am against war in virtually all circumstances. While I think(?) Bush is sincere he is the best reason I have seen for xians to stay out of politics

Quote

The Death of reason addresses Abu Ghraib torture, depleted uranium, the deceptions sold to the American public by the Bush administration, false flag operations, war profiteers

So in other words it is business as usual for the American Gov't as well as every other gov.

Just war theory was something dreamed up by Augustine. It is not in the bible. What is in the bible is non-resistance. If xians actually read the bible instead of swallowing whole everything fed to them we would have a different kind of church. }
It is beyond my comprehension how evangelical xians can interpret Jesus commands to turn the other cheek/love your enemies etc. to mean carry a gun go to war and kill destroy and maim other humans made in the image of God.
Just unbelievable


another poster responded by saying this

I agree. But the agenda of Christians is set forth in Matthew 5 and 6. We must trust in God for our security. In fact, trusting God with our lives is the ultimate in faith. Are you willing to take up that cross?

I wonder if he is a poster on this board?

http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/27477.html

I have Chuck Colsons book on Kingdoms in Conflict but havn't had a chance to read it.
From what I can see they base all their thinking on Pauls command in Rom 13 to obey the gov. meaning be good citizens even to the point of defending the nation. Then they throw in Agustine to finish off those of us who disagree.
I subscribe to Christianity Today magazine. I have found some of the articles to be very very good. I get it because I want to keep up with what is going on in the xian world and don't want to get the charismatic one. My point is the editors put out a editorial page that is often on current events current ethical thinking politics stuff like that and while I enjoy reading some of it what bothers me is this. They are focused intelligent rational clear headed and even if I disagree I can see they have spoken intelligently on the subject. In the latest issue one of the editors with a theology degree wrote a column on Jesus and the oath and his basic conclusion was to throw up his hands and say how are we suposed to understand any of this??? In other words focused intelligent rational clear headed thinking goes out the window when it comes to the bible and obeying Jesus. Christians living in america often equate xianity with americanism. What do xians in the rest of the world do if they don't know how to be an american is my question.
I'd like to offer a (weak) defence of our brethern who believe in just war etc. Here it is. I spend a lot of time listening to xian radio ( I have to ; I spend about 8-10 hours a day in a truck) and I have gotten to know some of these guys fairly well. They don't really know the word, they have never been taught properly, from birth it has been drummed into them, they've never heard anything else, they're taught to be nationalistic AND they probably need deliverence. In short they really can't help themselves.
Well that's my response. Sorry I couldn't continue the parody but following you two orators is hard enough. I feel strongly about this subject and wanted to comment


Fires will be kindled to testify that two and two make four. Swords will be drawn to prove that leaves are green in summer.”

G.K. Chesterton
Re: Opening Salvo in a Just War Debate! [message #518 is a reply to message #516] Sun, 11 March 2007 16:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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Thanks for the input Hardbones!

I'm not ignoring you (or Hombre). I received word this weekend that a dear friend of mine passed away. He and I moved up together to Faith Assembly back in 1976. He was 52 years old. I hope to be able to go to the funeral.

Blessings,
William


I want to believe!
Follow Constantine or follow Jesus [message #521 is a reply to message #516] Thu, 15 March 2007 02:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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Okay, I'm glad the great Biblicist was just pulling our leg...<grin> but I'll finish up with a few more thoughts.

I find it very interesting that in the OT you have many cases where God's people were called to kill those who were the enemies of His nation.

Even within the nation, homicide was blessed if it was done in accordance with God's instruction (stoning, wars, etc.). When Elijah called down fire on the Samaritan troops (at least 102 died), it was justifiable based upon God's commands to His Holy nation. (Contrast Jesus' Teachings: see Lk.9:51-56, Sermon on the Mount, etc.)

But not once in the NT do you find a "justifiable" case of homicide by a follower of Jesus. (I haven’t even found an example of a Christian who killed-- justifiable or not.) Now don't bring up the boy that fell out of the window because of Paul's long winded sermon, he was resurrected!

What you do find however, are cases where the followers of Jesus are killed. They are killed, but you never see them killing in retaliation.

It wasn't until "Christianity" was sanctioned by the government did it become necessary for Christians to develop a "theology" that would justify killing. This happened after Constantine’s "conversion." After his "conversion" it became fashionable to be a Christian.

It became necessary, after nearly 300 years of following Jesus' teachings, to develop a new "theology" that would allow a Christian to follow the Roman Government and at the same time follow Christ. 2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Believe me, merging this new "theology" with the teaching of Christ was not an easy task. The situation was so ridiculous that Constantine waited until the very end of his life before he was baptized, because his allegiance to the Roman Empire, his oath, required him to defend the empire by killing the enemies of the state. Even he knew that it was a major departure from the teachings of Jesus, so, to assure that he would be forgiven, he waits until the end of his life before becoming baptized.

It became necessary to develop a new "theology" that would allow his own soldiers (who quickly became "Christians" after the great example of Constantine) to be able to fight and kill.

The "just war" doctrine arose out of these circumstances. This new “theology" replaced the theology of Jesus and is embraced whenever an empire needs defending... to this hour.

Using this new "theology" these new "defenders of the faith" eventually were able to "destroy" the enemies of the Gospel and take over the "holy Land". It worked then, why not now? Why don't we just go over and wipe out the enemies of Christ residing in the "holy land" of Israel?

Christians need to rethink this new (now old) "theology" before swearing allegiance to the great leaders of the Roman Empire. We may find that there is a difference between following Constantine and following Jesus.

Whenever the subject is broached the Roman centurion is brought up. There actually were two centurions worthy of note. First there was the one who came seeking healing for his servant. Jesus was healing the sick, so it doesn't seem odd that he would come and ask Jesus to heal his beloved servant. We don't know if the Roman centurion actually became a Christian, although his faith is commended by Jesus--faith in Jesus' power to heal.

Jesus had just finished (if we can accept the chronology as it is presented) the sermon on the mount where He teaches that God sends the rain on the just and unjust and also the good Samarian example. After such teaching one would expect that Jesus wouldn't turn away a sincere request. But let's be realistic, a healing doesn't validate a person's whole life, or his vocation in life.

The second example, Cornelius, also a centurion, became one of the first of the gentile converts. Whether or not he remained in a position of authority with the Roman government would be conjecture on my part. I do believe that he, as a Christian, would have needed to consider the teachings of Jesus and how it would affect his ability to serve in a government that persecuted and made sport of Christians up until the time of Constantine. Besides, he became a Christian after hearing the preaching of Peter. All of his good works up until that point (as a soldier) cannot be used to validate a Christian being a soldier.

One has to decide when to obey Caesar, and when to obey God. Giving blind allegiance to governmental authorities (the duty of the soldier) and then using that as an excuse to kill (in direct opposition to Jesus' teaching) would be to my mind a hard thing to reconcile.

It is one thing to obey the laws that govern a society (unless of course, it would cause you to sin), it's another thing to yoke one's self to the institution. By yoking yourself to the institution, you surely bear some responsibility for its sins and excesses. No?

William

[Updated on: Thu, 15 March 2007 02:47]


I want to believe!
Re: Follow Constantine or follow Jesus [message #523 is a reply to message #521] Mon, 19 March 2007 16:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
Messages: 1450
Registered: January 2006
Senior Member
Administrator
Quote:

HAhahAHAAhAhAahAhahaHAhahaAAha!!!!!!!!!...not so fast Moulder,
yer not walkin away from this issue without a real
knockdown-dragout!!!!


I feel the need to warn you, I'm all out of band-aids and hydrogen
peroxide... I may have to leave you in the ditch until someone else
comes along.

Quote:

Nevertheless, it gives me pause, when I think about the way in
which God asks Jehoshaphat ( 2 Chron. 20 ) to send in the praise team,
and the way he blinds the Syrians ( 2 Kings 6, a fascinating account,
as Elisha tells his servant that they are not to kill the Syrians
after they are blinded, but to give them food and drink, and then send
them home ), as if He was saying, ' you know, there is another way to
do this.........' It also makes me think that at any time, God could
and would have allowed any of the Israelites to intercede on their
enemies behalf, and God could have removed them without killing
them.


That is a good point.

However, there are other cases that defy the picture of a
hand-wringing-wishing-his-people-would-do-right type of God. These
cases seem to require the execution of the unholy. Holiness, it
seems, is the very attribute that demands wrath. Maybe it is the lack
of holiness which makes us sometimes question the fairness of some of
these mass campaigns against those who know not the Lord?

Rm 9:22f What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his
power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath
fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his
glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?


Quote:

...so then, can we quote you as saying that? I mean, Jesus never explicitly said that, and America isn't Rome, and Bush isn't Constantine.........

...that is the sort of drivel I hear from Christians today. It is
almost moronic...then again, maybe it is. People who want to justify
their position yet can't find a proof text for their position, fall
back into these sorts of ridiculous flailing gestures, desperately
grabbing for twigs as they plummet off the precipice of their man made
religion....it's another gospel....not the one in the Bible.


I know what you mean. You almost feel like giving them all of the
personal attack information up front so they don't hurt themselves by
their flailing around for a good argument.

Hi, I'm William, I wear reading glasses (punch!), smoke a pipe (pow,
pow!), wear tee shirts with overt messages (kerpewy! take that you
swine!), have a TV (you dirty, rotten, kerpow!), and that is just for
the Faith Associates. (It is a whole nother fight when it is with the denoms.)

It seems to assuage their conscience somewhat if they can find
something personal to attack. This keeps them from facing the awful
truth... they don't have any legs! (Sorry for the personal
rebuttal... hold on a sec, I've got a speck in my eye.)

Quote:

Yes, but I've still got you on the hook for the question of
voting. Since that is not direct involvement in the government, but
merely the casting of an opinion in an attempt to bring righteousness
into the nation in which one lives...is it wrong?...or are you telling
me that one will bear partial responsibility for any possible misdeed
that an elected official may commit once in office, if you voted for
them?


Hmm, let's see now... what if everyone stayed home on voting day
except you, Sue, and Lou. Sue votes left, Lou votes right. Your vote
counts! (isn't that the message they all try to get out?) I think
your "opinion" in this case would be more than the indirect
involvement you seem to want to make it. Would you not bear more than
"partial responsibility" for such an act? Why would it be any
different if all 250 million voted (excepting me, of course)?

Quote:

...if that is so....then what about contributing money to a
ministry that fails to deliver the gospel accurately?


Don't tell me you've fallen into that trap? <grin>

William


I want to believe!
Re: Follow Constantine or follow Jesus [message #525 is a reply to message #523] Mon, 19 March 2007 19:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
Messages: 1450
Registered: January 2006
Senior Member
Administrator
Quote:

...because in the wisdom of the founding fathers, it is not the popular vote that determines the outcome of an election, but the electoral vote, which turns the popular vote into nothing more than a thermometer of popular opinion.


Yikes, I should have learned that in college... but alas, I was deprived of the college experience by well-meaning adults. I'll pop in over at factnet to get some victim therapy; I know you overcomers can't help me with that class.

Quote:

which also reminds me: we really need to check on the publishers of any magazines we currently subscribe to, to make sure that they don't either publish anything that doesn't conform to our belief system, or use their profits to support anything we don't believe in, whether in a corporate or personal sense. We don't want to be responsible for what they may or may not do with our money. If only everyone would see things this clearly. We could force our opinions on everyone through starvation.


uh, I don't subscribe to anything... I get them at Walmart. (Surely that's okay... isn't it?)

William


I want to believe!
Re: Follow Constantine or follow Jesus [message #529 is a reply to message #525] Mon, 19 March 2007 23:27 Go to previous message
william  is currently offline william
Messages: 1450
Registered: January 2006
Senior Member
Administrator
Quote:

If you purchase mags at Wal-Mart, you commit 2 sins.

First, you allow your eyes to filter through the stack until you see the one you want, and I am assuming that it is Bible expository we're talking about here, and not some vain and selfish pursuit like 4-wheeling, etc.

Second, you pay retail for the mag, which, if you had a subscription, you would avoid the lusty eye-trap, as well as be a much better steward of the money that you have been entrusted with.


But how will I know which infamous celeb needs prayer this week? Actually I'm still bleeding from the nasty fall I took when I tripped over the checkout counter... I had my eyes closed.

William


I want to believe!
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