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| End of the World [message #2998] |
Sun, 24 August 2008 15:19  |
 Mark L
Messages: 834
Registered: October 2006
Location: Canada |
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Most of us here believe we are living in the end days I would think. So with that in mind I came across some interesting info. Please understand that I am not setting dates or endorsing someone elses info. I just thought the way this was presented was very interesting
http://news.softpedia.com/news/Isaac-Newton-Predicted-the-En d-of-the-World-in-2060-57548.shtml
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/02/24/1045935318204.h tml
He predicted that back in 1760. 350 yrs ago. Interesting no!
My own personal view is Luke 21/32 That the generation which sees these things spoken of in Luke 21 happening will not pass from the earth till all is fullfilled. One of the things he spoke of in that passage was the restoration of Jerusalem. Again I'm not setting dates just speaking in generalities
Here's what I think. That people live today 90-100 yrs so if Jerusalem was restored in 1967 and if a generation lives today 90-100 yrs then that means the end has to ocour before 2067 or so. That's about 60 yrs away. So God has lots of time to work with. And if I/we have missed something somewhere thats OK too. God does not have to do things on our timetable.
Please understand again I am not setting dates. I just found it interesting that a theologian /scientist 350 yrs ago came up with the same generation we did. And he did it without any geopolitical facts at his disposal (like the restoration of Jerusalem)!
Fires will be kindled to testify that two and two make four. Swords will be drawn to prove that leaves are green in summer.”
G.K. Chesterton
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| Re: End of the World [message #2999 is a reply to message #2998] |
Sun, 24 August 2008 16:22  |
 james
Messages: 2137
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL |
Senior Member |
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I hope he was off about 55 years...short
Come quickly Lord Jesus...
"Whoso offereth praise glorifieth me..." Ps.50:23
“But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,”
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| Re: End of the World [message #3652 is a reply to message #3015] |
Thu, 09 October 2008 05:18 |
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NBF56
Messages: 51
Registered: February 2008
Location: Ohio |
Member |
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| Hombre wrote on Wed, 08 October 2008 11:42 |
| NBF56 wrote on Tue, 26 August 2008 10:21 |
Just for discussion, what exactly constitutes the "restoration of Jerusalem"? As it is now, Jerusalem is a divided city, with a Muslim shrine sitting on the site of the Temple. Could it be that Jerusalem still has not been fully restored? That the so-called "Dome of the Rock" needs to be destroyed, and Jerusalem to be completely in Jewish hands, and under Jewish control? The Muslims driven out and defeated?
Also, the State of Israel is a secular state. Is that what was spoken of in prophecy?
Just some food for discussion, and thought....
NBF
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..that IS an interesting thought, as we have always thought that it meant the occupation and legal control of Jerusalem by true ethnic Jews, which IS the case now, whether or not the city is 'divided' ( mostly in opinion, rather that in a legal sense )
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I know that the conventional wisdom has been that the formation of the State of Israel in 1948 set some sort of "prophetic clock" ticking, and that the generation which saw that happen would see all things fulfilled. it's been over a generation since that happened, by most peoples' reckoning, yet all is not fulfilled in the dispensational eschatological sense. At least, I don't see anyone claiming that it has been.
My own beliefs are not fully formed on this subject, which is partly why I asked the questions. I have spent much more time in the study of Soteriology than I have in Eschatology.
| Hombre |
| wikipedia |
During the 1967 Six-Day War, Israel captured East Jerusalem and asserted sovereignty over the entire city. Jewish access to holy sites was restored, while the Temple Mount remained under the jurisdiction of an Islamic waqf. The Moroccan Quarter, which was located adjacent to the Western Wall, was vacated and razed to make way for a plaza for those visiting the wall. Since the war, Israel has expanded the city's boundaries and established a ring of Jewish neighbourhoods on vacant land east of the Green Line.
However, the takeover of East Jerusalem was met with international criticism. Following the passing of Israel's Jerusalem Law, which declared Jerusalem, "complete and united", the capital of Israel, the United Nations Security Council passed a resolution that declared the law "a violation of international law" and requested all member states to withdraw all remaining embassies from the city.
The status of the city, and especially its holy places, remains a core issue in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Jewish settlers have taken over historic sites and built on land confiscated from Palestinians in order to expand the Jewish presence in East Jerusalem,while prominent Islamic leaders have insisted that Jews have no historical connection to Jerusalem. Palestinians envision East Jerusalem as the capital of a future Palestinian state, and the city's borders have been the subject of bilateral talks.
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Wikipedia may not be an 'authoritative' source that is acceptable to academics, but I think that one has to look at its' resources on a subject by subject basis, and in this case, I don't see anything wrong with the info.
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Seems fairly accurate to me, given what I know of the situation, which is admittedly not as much as some others may know.
| Hombre |
The interesting thing here which is par for the course, is that the UN is not only ineffective in policing its' policies, but is a general thorn in the side for almost any political issue that is not leftist in nature. With very little research, one would find very quickly that it has repeatedly stood against Israel during its' conflicts, in its' attempts to assuage the battered egos and states of the Arabs who have been the perennial losers in their various campaigns against Israels' existence.
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On its face, that would seem to be a self-evident statement, but there is a lot of wisdom and insight in it as well. I do believe there is a 'reason' why the Arabs have gotten their cans kicked whenever they have tried to strike against Israel. Ii look at the secular side of Israel's coming into existence as a Sovereign State as more a beginning of fulfillment, rather than it's end. At least, that's where I am with it right now.
| Hombre |
The question that you pose however, is compelling because it questions and suggests that the nature of the restoration may be an integral part of the prophecy, as opposed to the simple occupation and declaration by the secular Jewish ruling authorities to be their capital.
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I tend to believe that nature of the restoration should be viewed as an integral part of the prophecy. I don't think God's ultimate aim would be just a secular state. It seems to me that scripture has stated as much. so, what we are seeing, and have seen is but the beginning of the groundwork preparation for the fulfillment of Israel's restoration, which in its fullness must be spiritual as well as physical.
| Hombre |
..what about the restoration of the temple and the resumption of sacrifices?
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Good question. Somehow, I can't quite wrap my mind around God allowing the sacrifices to be reinstated, because, after all, the Sacrifice has been made: Christ. How could God sanction of condone a return to the former shadow, after the penultimate has already come? As for the Temple, I know there are groups heavily involved (and possibly heavily invested) in such a venture. I don't believe scripture is quite as cut-and-dried about it as some think. My gut feeling is that a lot of assumptions have been made without clear warrant, probably based on seeing what they want to see. I think there is room for the idea of Covenant Theology, something which I've been investigating. And CT has a whole different take on these Eschatological questions.
Thanks for a good reply, and thought-provoking points.
[Updated on: Thu, 09 October 2008 05:19]
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| Re: End of the World [message #3663 is a reply to message #3652] |
Thu, 09 October 2008 17:01 |
Mark L
Messages: 834
Registered: October 2006
Location: Canada |
Senior Member |
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Regarding the issue of a generation. What Jesus said was this generation(that sees these things happen) will not pass away till all takes place.I always thought that meant one geration will not pass. Maybe 25 to 40 yrs. I took a closer look at it some time ago and concluded the gereration that sees these things happen will not "pass" from the earth. In other words it will all happen before the last person that sees it dies. Which give the Lord a lot of time to work with.
Another conclusion I have come to after a lot of thought over the years is that we can't come to too many definete conclusions about end times. We have simply been wrong about too much. I'm speaking of the entire christian church here including the faith camp. There is much we do know for sure but the Bible doesn't put everything together in a nice neat package. While I have definete opinions on end times I try not to get too dogmatic any more.
Regarding the temple and the sacrifices.(slightly off your topic here) I think when the war of Gog and Magog ocours the Arab nations seeing the supernatural hand of God are going to back off and allow the Jews to rebuild their temple & have sacrifices. Grant Jeffrey ( prolific author on prophecy) says after some carefull reaserch that there is reason to believe the original Holy of Holies within the early temple was built on the eaatern part of the temple mount and there is room to build that there today. The point being that it could coexist with the muslim shrine(can't remember the name) I don't know whether that is true or not. It may be the muslim shrine will be destroyed in the war leaving room for the rebuilding of the temple.
Fires will be kindled to testify that two and two make four. Swords will be drawn to prove that leaves are green in summer.”
G.K. Chesterton
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| Re: End of the World [message #3680 is a reply to message #3652] |
Thu, 09 October 2008 20:33 |
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NBF56
Messages: 51
Registered: February 2008
Location: Ohio |
Member |
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| Hombre wrote on Thu, 09 October 2008 09:36 |
| NBF56 wrote on Thu, 09 October 2008 00:18 |
| Hombre |
..what about the restoration of the temple and the resumption of sacrifices?
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Good question. Somehow, I can't quite wrap my mind around God allowing the sacrifices to be reinstated, because, after all, the Sacrifice has been made: Christ. How could God sanction of condone a return to the former shadow, after the penultimate has already come? As for the Temple, I know there are groups heavily involved (and possibly heavily invested) in such a venture. I don't believe scripture is quite as cut-and-dried about it as some think. My gut feeling is that a lot of assumptions have been made without clear warrant, probably based on seeing what they want to see.
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'...And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land. And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them. Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down. And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered. Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?..' ~ Daniel 8:9-13
In this metaphor that is commonly believed to be about the Antichrist ( the little horn ), and about which Jesus refers to in Matt 24:15 and Mark 13:14, it can be seen that the sacrifices will indeed be restored, and that the Antichrist will cause them to cease.
When I think about the idea that you presented regarding the 'nature of the restoration', I don't have a problem with the Jews doing sacrifices, since it is a return to what they believe to be that which is right before God, not that which actually is through Jesus Christ. The institution and resumption of their religious practices as per the Abrahamic, Mosaic and Davidic covenants would to me, qualify as the basis for which to proclaim the state of Israel 'spiritually restored', as per the idea of making a distinction between being 'restored geographically' and being 'restored spiritually' ( not that they are 'spiritually restored' in the sense that they now recognize Jesus of Nazareth to be the Messiah ).
As far as I know, sacrifices have not yet begun...but then again, we are engaging in conjecture about what constitutes Gods' definition of 'restoration'.
I am convinced that from the previous scripture and the following 2, that the Jews /Israel will NOT as yet have understood that Jesus IS the Christ even by the time that the Antichrist stops the daily sacrifice, or they wouldn't be making it to begin with.
It won't be until Christ actually returns that the revelation will hit their eyes and hearts, and they will be in great sorrow for that which they will now clearly see.
'...and it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn....' ~ Zech. 12:10
'....Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty....' ~ Rev. 1:7-8
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Good points, all.
My primary question is wondering if the establishment of the State of Israel (a secular nation) is the trigger or if something more has to happen before the so-called "prophetic clock" begins to tick. I'm inclined to think the latter, although I can't really point to anything that would support it. Call it a hunch, I guess. That's why I wanted to kick the subject around little, so to speak, and find out what others are thinking.
I see your point about the sacrifices. I do wonder though, in this "modern" world, how people will react to animal slaughter for religious purposes. The PETA types will be apoplectic. They would much rather see humans sacrificed, than animals.
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| Re: End of the World [message #3701 is a reply to message #3680] |
Sat, 11 October 2008 13:52 |
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NBF56
Messages: 51
Registered: February 2008
Location: Ohio |
Member |
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| Hombre wrote on Thu, 09 October 2008 16:59 |
| NBF56 wrote on Thu, 09 October 2008 15:33 |
... I do wonder though, in this "modern" world, how people will react to animal slaughter for religious purposes. The PETA types will be apoplectic. They would much rather see humans sacrificed, than animals.
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..what do you mean? they're already sacrificing our lives for the sake of some obscure rodent, amphibian, insect or bird in a multitude of desolate places that are rich in natural resources...
..but anyway...that's a whole other rant....
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That was my point. In their twisted minds, animals are above humans in importance, and where there is a choice between saving animals and saving humans, the animals win, every time.
| Hombre |
...the Santerias and the Brahmins ( Hindus ) already sacrifice animals, even in America..maybe illegally here, but nevertheless they do. Do a google on it, it's kind of fascinating.
Look at this, you wont believe it:
| PETA website |
Help Stop the Abuse of Chickens in Kapporos Ritual Sacrifices
From a distance, kapporos sites look like street festivals. But up close, they are horrifying makeshift slaughterhouses on public streets. This ritual, which is practiced primarily by Hasidic Jewish communities, involves the rough handling (waving chickens over one's head) and slaughter of chickens in a sacrificial atonement ceremony prior to the holiday of Yom Kippur.
http://getactive.peta.org/campaign/kapporos
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Someone said it best.....People are Strange...
| Hombre |
Here, someone asks the question:
Why is Fried Chicken Good, but Sacrificed Chicken is Evil?
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Because of the secret blend of eleven herbs and spices???
| Hombre |
..it looks like the same sort of way that Christians are attacked. If a Christian does something, it's this great big deal, whereas if someone else does the same thing, it's nothing. Goats and chickens etc. can be sacrificed around the world by whoever, as long as they aren't jews doing it.
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Such is the way of irrational hatred, and demonic influence.
| Hombre |
..BTW...now that we know that the antichrist will stop the daily sacrifice, we can start looking through the member list of Peta for clues as to what his name is.
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Good point! Anything to help narrow it down.....
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| Re: End of the World [message #3763 is a reply to message #2998] |
Fri, 17 October 2008 15:14 |
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NBF56
Messages: 51
Registered: February 2008
Location: Ohio |
Member |
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| Hombre |
WHY is it that the Jewish temple mount is less important than the Muslim shrine?...and WHY do the Jews not become as incensed as the arabs over the desecration of THEIR temple mount?
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I think primarily it is because Israel is, at its core, a secular state, not a restoration of religious Israel. At some point, observant Jews may come to power, and become the ruling force, but that hasn't happened yet. When that happens, I think things will begin to move, and a real push for taking the Temple Mount back, setting up a new Temple, and resuming Temple practices will come to fruition.
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| Re: End of the World [message #3802 is a reply to message #3763] |
Sun, 19 October 2008 00:58 |
Mark L
Messages: 834
Registered: October 2006
Location: Canada |
Senior Member |
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There is a temple institute in Jerusalem run by mostly orthodox rabbis.They have prepared a lot of the instruments for temple sacrifice and worship and trained a lot of young men with the surname Levi to work in the temple. They are actively preparing for the restoration of temple worship.
There is some very interesting info going on about the ark as well. According to Grant Jeffrey the ark was taken to Ethiopia around the time of Solomon and remained there untill several yrs ago when it was returned to Israel.
I agree with that point of view. I think there is some biblical evidence for it too. It says in KIngs and Chronicles that all the earth sought Solomon's wisdom yet it zero's in on the Queen of Sheba. (Ethiopia)
Book of Acts. Out of all the stuff going on why is the ethiopian eunuch's story included. Graham Hancock (secular writer) wrote a book on the search for the ark and his conclusion was it was in Ethiopia. Grant Jeffery has written extensively about it as well.
This is a very big subject. There is much going on about this and much being written. If anyone is interested get Grant Jeffery's books. He is not-charismatic but you would never know it from his writings. He has a tremendous interest in bible prophesy. I don't agree with everything he says but he has an absolute genius for research. Has stuff you never heard of.
http://www.grantjeffrey.com/index.html
Anyway the reason for my posting now was to ask a question. If Israel is a secular nation (and it is) and we do live in the endtimes (I think we do) what will turn the nation religious again? The bible does speak of a restored Israel with a temple and worship. In my opinion it will be the war of Gog and Magog. I think that will occour prior to the trib. I also think God's two witnessess will arise at the beginning of the trib and will set the tribal boundaries put the sacrifice and worship in order etc. In other words I think they will do more than just stand around and prophesy and call down fire from heaven.
[Updated on: Sun, 19 October 2008 04:20]
Fires will be kindled to testify that two and two make four. Swords will be drawn to prove that leaves are green in summer.”
G.K. Chesterton
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| Re: End of the World [message #3838 is a reply to message #3829] |
Mon, 20 October 2008 15:52 |
Mark L
Messages: 834
Registered: October 2006
Location: Canada |
Senior Member |
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Everyone is allowed to make mistakes. In my opinion where it comes to research; genius is the proper word to use for him
Fires will be kindled to testify that two and two make four. Swords will be drawn to prove that leaves are green in summer.”
G.K. Chesterton
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| Re: End of the World [message #3855 is a reply to message #3802] |
Mon, 20 October 2008 18:30 |
Mark L
Messages: 834
Registered: October 2006
Location: Canada |
Senior Member |
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Hombre said
That there was an ark of the covenant: true.
That it still exists? Uncertain.
Well I would agree. Although I do think it was in Ethiopia and now in Israel. The material I read on it was very carefully researched and I did give some biblical backing. I find stuff like this interesting so perhaps when I speak about it a degree of certainty comes across that is really unwarranted. As I have said on other posts where it comes to prophesy & current events in relation to that we need to be carefull not to get too dogmatic,
Hombre said
I am unfamiliar with a separate war of 'Gog and Magog'.....please fill me in on this
Ezek 38-39 War of Gog and Magog Not sure what you mean by seperate. I don't think it is the final war of armegeddon that is spoken of there. I think it is a Russian /Arab confederacy that attacks Israel and is supernaturally destroyed by God. I think Israel at this point turns in some way back to God. Maybe not Jesus but to their ancient faith. Because of the obvious supernatural hand of God. This of course is all IMHO.
I also think that by the time this war occours the only Jews left in the world will be in Israel. They will all have been forced out or slaughtered. a wave of hate that will directed against Xians as well.
I'm going to go way out on a limb here so if anyone chops off the branch please at least be nice about it.
Bro Freeman gave a prophecy around 1982 that God was turning the clock back to give us more time. I think the fullfillment of that was the Israeli - Lebonon war of 82. (not sure about dates) When Israel went into Lebanon they found mountains of Russian military equipment that no one knew was there. Obviously intended for an invasion. In my opinion that was to be the war of Gog and Magog. It didn't happen because the clock was turned back.
I think the war will occour prior to the trib and one of the main purposes is to turn this secular unbelieving nations attention back to God. Not speaking of true salvation here but just their attention back on God being as he just revealed himself to them.
That tape on the exodus looks interesting. I'm going to order it. It will be interesting to see what they say about Mt Sinai as I don't believe the traditional site is correct.
[Updated on: Mon, 20 October 2008 19:18]
Fires will be kindled to testify that two and two make four. Swords will be drawn to prove that leaves are green in summer.”
G.K. Chesterton
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| Re: End of the World [message #4016 is a reply to message #3855] |
Sat, 01 November 2008 15:15 |
Mark L
Messages: 834
Registered: October 2006
Location: Canada |
Senior Member |
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Well I agree with what you said except I think the war of Gog and Magog ocours before the trib. I have a real interest in the endtimes so I think I will do a serious study on this war sometime soon.
Fires will be kindled to testify that two and two make four. Swords will be drawn to prove that leaves are green in summer.”
G.K. Chesterton
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