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Seeing the Father [message #13669] Tue, 05 January 2021 17:38 Go to next message
Mark L  is currently offline Mark L
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Will we ever see him? Bro. Freeman taught that no one can see the Father and probably never will. That is a position I agree with and there is some solid biblcal evidence to back that up.

John 1/18 "No one has seen the Father at any time"
Col. 1/15 "who is the image of the invisible God"
1Tim 6/16 "dwelling in light no man can approach unto; whom no man has seen or can see"
Ex. 33/20 "no man can see my face and live"

As I said I agree with that position but there are 2 vs that would seem to contradict it.

Dan. 7/13 "one like the son of man . . . came to the ancient of days"
Rev. 4/2-3,5/7 "and one sat upon the throne . . . I beheld a lamb . . he came . . . took the book . . . him who sat upon the throne

So in both situations, we see two personalities and in Rev. the HS is there as well. In any other passage I would see Jesus as being the ancient of days as well as sitting on the throne. So its a bit of a conundrum to me. I thought I'd post and see what you guys thought.

Re: Seeing the Father [message #13670 is a reply to message #13669] Tue, 05 January 2021 19:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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All that we could really see would be a "representation". That might be the answer to the possible exceptions above where there is a representation of the transfer of power. As far as I understand the Godhead, Jesus is THE Representation.

Just imagine trying to see an eternal, omnipresent being... ain't no way an eyeball can do that!

It is fun to contemplate though!

Blessings,
William


I want to believe!
Re: Seeing the Father [message #13671 is a reply to message #13670] Tue, 05 January 2021 19:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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I just read over the 2 passages again and noticed the symbolism: One 'like' the Son of Man, and I beheld a 'lamb'...

The language seems a bit too figurative to take the passages in some sort of concrete way. (I wanted to use the word 'literal' instead of 'concrete' but we can take things 'literally' and the figurative part be included. Literally, to me, actually can be more defined as taking the language for what it is actually saying, i.e. the normal understanding of what's being said; this may be in parable form, symbolic form, etc., and it still is literal.)

Blessings,
William


Blessings,
William


I want to believe!
Re: Seeing the Father [message #13672 is a reply to message #13669] Tue, 05 January 2021 23:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gary  is currently offline Gary
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Mark L wrote on Tue, 05 January 2021 17:38
Will we ever see him? Bro. Freeman taught that no one can see the Father and probably never will. That is a position I agree with and there is some solid biblcal evidence to back that up.

John 1/18 "No one has seen the Father at any time"
Col. 1/15 "who is the image of the invisible God"
1Tim 6/16 "dwelling in light no man can approach unto; whom no man has seen or can see"
Ex. 33/20 "no man can see my face and live"

As I said I agree with that position but there are 2 vs that would seem to contradict it.

Dan. 7/13 "one like the son of man . . . came to the ancient of days"
Rev. 4/2-3,5/7 "and one sat upon the throne . . . I beheld a lamb . . he came . . . took the book . . . him who sat upon the throne

So in both situations, we see two personalities and in Rev. the HS is there as well. In any other passage I would see Jesus as being the ancient of days as well as sitting on the throne. So its a bit of a conundrum to me. I thought I'd post and see what you guys thought.



I don't know that those scriptures prove inconclusively that we will never see the face of the Father. I think that in this present age no man can look on the Face of the Father because he would die. I believe its because of all that mankind has been through, concerning sin and corruption on the earth.

Jesus said: 10 "Take heed that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that in heaven their angels always see the face of My Father who is in heaven.

Millions of children who are attended by angels we are told that they always behold the Face of the Father.

Jesus told the Sadducees: 35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore,for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.

If we are equal to the angels and called sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. Why would we not be able to behold the Father? We are His children and will be in heaven for all of eternity.

All those scriptures you quoted apply to mankind while on the earth, none show that this will carry over to heaven.

There is actually more scriptures that state we will see His face.

3 And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him. 4 They shall see His face, and His name shall be on their foreheads.

I think we will see it!

In Him,
Gary




Re: Seeing the Father [message #13673 is a reply to message #13672] Wed, 06 January 2021 00:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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Just like old Gary to come in and throw us a curve!

I still don't think it's possible but you've brought a perspective that I've never considered!

Blessings,
William


I want to believe!
Re: Seeing the Father [message #13674 is a reply to message #13673] Wed, 06 January 2021 00:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mark L  is currently offline Mark L
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william wrote on Wed, 06 January 2021 00:03
Just like old Gary to come in and throw us a curve!

I still don't think it's possible but you've brought a perspective that I've never considered!

Blessings,
William


I agree with you on both. Smile I still don't think we will but I can't really prove it from the bible. It's a question I always wondered about.

[Updated on: Wed, 06 January 2021 02:52]

Re: Seeing the Father [message #13675 is a reply to message #13673] Wed, 06 January 2021 14:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gary  is currently offline Gary
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william wrote on Wed, 06 January 2021 00:03
Just like old Gary to come in and throw us a curve!

I still don't think it's possible but you've brought a perspective that I've never considered!

Blessings,
William


William,

I'm glad your at least considering the possibility. LOL

I have to at least consider myself if something is stated clearly in the scriptures contradicts what I have been taught. In Revelation 22 the last book of the Bible and the last chapter seems fairly clear to me. Unless the Greek is stating something entirely different that I am unaware of.

Lets look again and what the Word states:

22 And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding from the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2 In the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the tree of life, which bore twelve fruits, each tree yielding its fruit every month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3 And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him. 4 They shall see His face, and His name shall be on their foreheads. 5 There shall be no night there: They need no lamp nor light of the sun, for the Lord God gives them light. And they shall reign forever and ever.


6 Then he said to me, "These words are faithful and true." And the Lord God of the holy prophets sent His angel to show His servants the things which must shortly take place.

In the Old Testament God always came down in a black cloud when His people offered the sacrifices and we know this is how He manifested His presence the glory of God was hidden in the cloud.

Jesus Christ offered His life to bring mankind back to God where their sins are cleansed by His shed Blood. He finished the work at Calvary that God would be appeased through this sacrifice.

It would seem strange to me that God would then allow men into heaven and would hide His face from them. We know in scripture that the angels behold the Face of the Father. We will be as little children
considering in the fact we will live for all of eternity.

Why would the Father hide His face from us in Heaven, Is there something still lacking in our relationship?

How can we honestly look at Revelation 4:4, where its states we will see His face it is clearly showing in the whole chapter that this is the Father and what will take place in the Kingdom of God?

It's hard for me to believe any more that HF had the final say so on God's Word and what will take place in the future of the Kingdom of God. We have to also consider that God is far greater then what we can ever imagine. How can we with our finite minds ever know all there is to know about the Lord?

Just stating facts here as I see them, not trying to come down on what anyone believes that could be different. But I will have to stick to Rev. 4:4 till I see something different in scripture.

In Him,
Gary





Re: Seeing the Father [message #13676 is a reply to message #13675] Wed, 06 January 2021 15:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
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I don't know either, but I know we wont be disappointed whether we do or not.

No, HEF didn't have the final word on scripture any more than anyone of us does.

I hate that I don't get notifications when there's activity on the forum, I probably got something turned off that should be on...lol But I sure do get told by FB that the US election was correctly calculated.


“But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,”
Re: Seeing the Father [message #13677 is a reply to message #13675] Wed, 06 January 2021 16:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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Gary wrote on Wed, 06 January 2021 14:11
william wrote on Wed, 06 January 2021 00:03
Just like old Gary to come in and throw us a curve!

I still don't think it's possible but you've brought a perspective that I've never considered!

Blessings,
William


William,

I'm glad your at least considering the possibility. LOL

I have to at least consider myself if something is stated clearly in the scriptures contradicts what I have been taught. In Revelation 22 the last book of the Bible and the last chapter seems fairly clear to me. Unless the Greek is stating something entirely different that I am unaware of.

Lets look again and what the Word states:

22 And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding from the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2 In the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the tree of life, which bore twelve fruits, each tree yielding its fruit every month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3 And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him. 4 They shall see His face, and His name shall be on their foreheads. 5 There shall be no night there: They need no lamp nor light of the sun, for the Lord God gives them light. And they shall reign forever and ever.


6 Then he said to me, "These words are faithful and true." And the Lord God of the holy prophets sent His angel to show His servants the things which must shortly take place.

In the Old Testament God always came down in a black cloud when His people offered the sacrifices and we know this is how He manifested His presence the glory of God was hidden in the cloud.

Jesus Christ offered His life to bring mankind back to God where their sins are cleansed by His shed Blood. He finished the work at Calvary that God would be appeased through this sacrifice.

It would seem strange to me that God would then allow men into heaven and would hide His face from them. We know in scripture that the angels behold the Face of the Father. We will be as little children
considering in the fact we will live for all of eternity.

Why would the Father hide His face from us in Heaven, Is there something still lacking in our relationship?

How can we honestly look at Revelation 4:4, where its states we will see His face it is clearly showing in the whole chapter that this is the Father and what will take place in the Kingdom of God?

It's hard for me to believe any more that HF had the final say so on God's Word and what will take place in the future of the Kingdom of God. We have to also consider that God is far greater then what we can ever imagine. How can we with our finite minds ever know all there is to know about the Lord?

Just stating facts here as I see them, not trying to come down on what anyone believes that could be different. But I will have to stick to Rev. 4:4 till I see something different in scripture.

In Him,
Gary



I think Mark only mentioned HEF in passing... not as an authority.

Here's the problem as I see it: If one grasps the concept of the omnipresence of God and contemplates seeing the omnipresent God then one would naturally conclude that to see this omnipresent God you would need to be omnipresent yourself... this is an untenable theological position. Finite cannot behold the infinite without becoming infinite first and if finite can become infinite then you develop a situation where you've essentially got more than one God.

So we're not determining our position based upon the words of some man, it's based upon what the Bible teaches.

So the difference in our viewpoint is a matter of degrees. Of course, if God chooses to manifest a representation of Himself, i.e. burning bush, pillar of fire, cloud, or even "His Face", then we must take those manifestations with the understanding of the rest of Scripture.

Jesus said, if you've seen me, then you've seen the Father:

[Jhn 5:37 KJV] 37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

[Jhn 14:9 KJV] 9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou [then], Shew us the Father?

Taking that last verse, we conclude that when we see Jesus, we will see the Father, that gets us back on the same page as you, but not in the same sense as Mark's post (or HEF for that matter) or my later post.

Whenever God chooses to reveal Himself it must be, by necessity, a localized representation. So yes, when the Bible says that the angels in heaven see His face, we're not denying what it says based upon some "final say" of HEF, we're using the rest of Scripture to qualify those verses.

That said, if God somehow has figured out a way for us to see Him fully, I'm on board... completely!

Now one might accuse me of getting my theological positions from HEF, and they'd be right about that, but everything has context and it's the context that drives me toward this position, not a sentence that HEF uttered in a moment long, long, ago.

Blessings,
William

[Updated on: Wed, 06 January 2021 16:47]


I want to believe!
Re: Seeing the Father [message #13678 is a reply to message #13676] Wed, 06 January 2021 17:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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james wrote on Wed, 06 January 2021 15:51
I don't know either, but I know we wont be disappointed whether we do or not.

No, HEF didn't have the final word on scripture any more than anyone of us does.

I hate that I don't get notifications when there's activity on the forum, I probably got something turned off that should be on...lol But I sure do get told by FB that the US election was correctly calculated.


Ha!

The notification feature works the same for me... I only get notifications when I post in a thread (but I don't get my own posts).

I believe the Introduction section operates differently though, and I wish I could figure out how to make it work for the other sections. I need more programming experience!

Blessings,
William


I want to believe!
Re: Seeing the Father [message #13679 is a reply to message #13678] Wed, 06 January 2021 17:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
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"I need more programming experience " lol

I thought you wrote the book on programming...

I got a notification on my iPhone since I posted.


“But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,”
Re: Seeing the Father [message #13680 is a reply to message #13679] Wed, 06 January 2021 18:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gary  is currently offline Gary
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Will we ever see him? Bro. Freeman taught that no one can see the Father and probably never will. That is a position I agree with and there is some solid biblcal evidence to back that up.

Mainly I'm going by this statement: will we ever see Him, Bro Freeman taught that no one can see the Father and probably never will.

I know we'll see something on the throne. Moses saw the backside of God on the mountain. Surely there would be some manifestation, and He does tell us we will see His face in Revelations.

But I understand how could we ever fully understand or comprehend a God who is from all eternity? The Lord comes out of eternity and then creates humans out of the dust of the earth.

Just the thought of it is incredible. As for Brother Freeman that was long ago it seems like another life time.

Gary

Some of the problems with computers I think is when one person has a mac and another person has a computer with windows on it. I think apple does not have all the bells and whistles in their software. So everything comes out different when we get to the internet.

If I was a bettin man I'd wager James has an apple. LOL





[Updated on: Wed, 06 January 2021 18:12]

Re: Seeing the Father [message #13681 is a reply to message #13680] Wed, 06 January 2021 18:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
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That's why gambling is wrong, you'd lost your hard earned money(unless it was Bitcoins), I have a Dell. We do have a new Mac at the business center, I haven't even tried to turn it on.

I usually keep the crisper stocked with apples, close as I come. Lol


“But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,”
Re: Seeing the Father [message #13682 is a reply to message #13681] Wed, 06 January 2021 19:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gary  is currently offline Gary
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james wrote on Wed, 06 January 2021 18:20
That's why gambling is wrong, you'd lost your hard earned money(unless it was Bitcoins), I have a Dell. We do have a new Mac at the business center, I haven't even tried to turn it on.

I usually keep the crisper stocked with apples, close as I come. Lol




I thought you might appreciate this in light of this conversation:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJGUqqI_ZNE

Mama Cass is cool too! LOL






Re: Seeing the Father [message #13683 is a reply to message #13682] Thu, 07 January 2021 01:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mark L  is currently offline Mark L
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That Tennessee Ernie Ford stuff was great. I like some of the modern stuff but there sure is a place for old hymns. Especially with a nice male voice.

The reason it has always been a question to me is because of the vs in Rev. and Dan. It also occurs to me that the Father himself spoke several times in the NT. Some interesting thoughts here.
Re: Seeing the Father [message #13684 is a reply to message #13683] Thu, 07 January 2021 14:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gary  is currently offline Gary
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Mark L wrote on Thu, 07 January 2021 01:10
That Tennessee Ernie Ford stuff was great. I like some of the modern stuff but there sure is a place for old hymns. Especially with a nice male voice.

The reason it has always been a question to me is because of the vs in Rev. and Dan. It also occurs to me that the Father himself spoke several times in the NT. Some interesting thoughts here.



Hi Mark,

I know what you mean about a male voice. I listen often to this Jewish brother I have several of his albums, you might of heard of Jonathan Settel he sings a lot of his songs in Hebrew.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2YyQoLkZ_g

Don't pay any attention to me I just like to discuss the Bible, and explore every possibility. I think one lifetime on this earth and we're just barely scratching the surface when it comes to the Lord. The twelve disciples walked with Jesus and did not understand what He was saying even till the very end.

Will I guess Biden is the new leader in this country if I got the news right someone told me. I've been staying out of politics as much as possible. In Daniel were told:

Daniel 4:17 'This decision is by the decree of the watchers,
And the sentence by the word of the holy ones,
In order that the living may know
That the Most High rules in the kingdom of men,
Gives it to whomever He will,
and sets over it the lowest of men.


This scripture is mentioned three times it is only in this verse we see added; "and sets over it the lowest of men". The Lord has a purpose for what He is accomplishing in the earth.

I don't know if anyone knows here, But who are these "watchers" we hear about in Daniel? I don't know if I ever heard anyone comment on them they are mentioned several times in this book.

In Him,
Gary






Re: Seeing the Father [message #13685 is a reply to message #13684] Fri, 08 January 2021 16:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
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I've always thought they were angels, I don't remember a lot from teachings on Daniel by HEF, but reading the text today I'm thinking angels, with the specific task of watching. Now we know God knows all things and doesn't need an angel to tell Him what's happening on earth, but for some reason there were watchers with the assignment of watching (and reporting back???)

Since you like to bet (just kidding) I'll bet Mark or William has a more in depth answer, as least an opinion. Isn't it funny how we use certain phrases... My dad used to say , "I'll bet you a dollar to a donut."


“But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,”
Re: Seeing the Father [message #13686 is a reply to message #13685] Fri, 08 January 2021 19:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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james wrote on Fri, 08 January 2021 16:33
I've always thought they were angels, I don't remember a lot from teachings on Daniel by HEF, but reading the text today I'm thinking angels, with the specific task of watching. Now we know God knows all things and doesn't need an angel to tell Him what's happening on earth, but for some reason there were watchers with the assignment of watching (and reporting back???)

Since you like to bet (just kidding) I'll bet Mark or William has a more in depth answer, as least an opinion. Isn't it funny how we use certain phrases... My dad used to say , "I'll bet you a dollar to a donut."


The only way I could give a more in-depth answer is to say "ditto" to your note while ducking!

Blessings,
William


I want to believe!
Re: Seeing the Father [message #13693 is a reply to message #13669] Fri, 22 January 2021 00:11 Go to previous message
Mark L  is currently offline Mark L
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I think watchers is a job title referring a specific job. It says they made the decision so they obviously carry some authority. Are they angels? I don't have any idea but I doubt it. There are a lot of different kinds of personality related to the orderly running of our world. Angels are just one although maybe the most numerous. Ultimately responsibility goes upward to the god of this world who is in charge here and who then gives an account to the ultimate authority. I think there is a vast bureaucracy of personalities that have responsibility for the spiritual physical political issues of the earth. Some angels some not.

Dan. 10 refers to personalities (angels) that are the real rulers over kingdoms
Rev. 16/5 angel of the waters. Responsibility in some way for water and its effect on the earth. Water is very serious here and has a big effect on the weather.
There are a lot of references in the bible to personalities (not always angels)

In my own life I have seen things like this. Years ago when just starting preparation for the call on my life the Lord allowed me to see the ruler over a medium sized city not far from me. It is a city filled with satanism and the ruler over it is an angel. I saw him rise into the heaven to look at something and saw the trail of phosphorescence he left as he rose.

There is another smallish city 30-40,000 near me where the spiritual ruler is a Grotesque. A Grotesque is a step up from a Gargoyle. Greater in power authority intelligence abilty along with more responsibility. Gargoyles are a particular class of demon and there are several kinds. Much to say here. Better to leave it there.

I'd also like to say that I don't recommend anyone search these things out. Other than biblically like Gary was doing. Bro. Freeman, BRO. FREEMAN because he wasn't careful enough with these issues ended up with a serious problem near the end of his life. He got rid of it but it shouldn't have happened.

Personally, I don't search any of these things out again other than in the bible. I just let the Lord bring understanding or knowledge into my life and sometimes look a little further. Like Bro. Freeman I have got my fingers burned and it isn't pleasant. I have learned to be very careful.

I guess I'm saying a little more here than I normally do. I think we are on the edge of big things happening and God's people are going to need understanding. Too much of Christendom sees only the political and ignores the real rulers of our world










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