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Question concerning teaching on spirits [message #11535] Wed, 11 March 2015 15:16 Go to next message
james  is currently offline james
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I have a question about what was taught concerning spirits. The question arises from reading in Job 38-41 where I found notes (made by me 30 yr ago in an old Bible) in my margin that Pleiades and Orion (Job 38:31); behemoth (Job 40:15); and leviathan (Job 41:1) were spirits??? I don't remember were I got that (assuming from Bro. Freeman?) from but I can't recall. Now 30 years later I don't see anything that would cause me to believe God was referring to spirits when showing Job his ignorance and reminding him of His mighty power.

I see from commentaries that Pleiades and Orion speak of the stars and that behemoth is believed to be either an elephant or hippo and leviathan probably a crocodile. Was this a case of taking scripture out of context or was it believed to be a revelation of something no one else could see?

Just wondering...William, thanks in advance for patience with me....<grin>


“But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,”
Re: Question concerning teaching on spirits [message #11536 is a reply to message #11535] Thu, 12 March 2015 05:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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When I recently did a study of Job I found that there were essentially two major views concerning these passages... one was that God was giving a poetical insight to the spiritual realm and the other was that this was describing the physical creation.

I'm with you on the interpretation. There doesn't seem to me to be a reason to interpret this allegorically although I can see why people might do just that!

Blessings,
William


I want to believe!
Re: Question concerning teaching on spirits [message #11537 is a reply to message #11536] Thu, 12 March 2015 23:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mark L  is currently offline Mark L
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I don't think it is allegorical either. Some people do believe there are spirits with those names though.

Incidently What does the "the sweet influences of Pleiades" mean. If we take it at face value as I do then the stars have an infuence on us. Either on our world here or us or more probably both. Gen 1/14 as well. "Lights . . . let them be for signs" SIGNS !?!?!? The star of Bethleham was a sign. Ancient people believed comets were a harbringer of some (mostly evil) event. Superstition or bible?

I think that all of this is science and knowledge that is simply lost to us as humans. The world believes we are on an upward quest to more and more intelligence and understanding. The bible says it has been all downhill since the garden. Adam on down understood all these things. I guess what I am saying is that the animals in the garden were more intelligent than us humans today. We are a pale shadow of what God created in the garden.

I should add that I think that all the worldly study of this is mostly metaphysics and should be avoided. Having said that I'm not ruling out God giving us understanding as this is simply the way he created the world.

behemoth & leviathan. I don't see how the description there can relate to any modern animal. for eg. He moveth his tail like a cedar Hippos have a very small tail. Here is my opinion. I think the book of Job was written before the flood and these are descriptions of animals that simply don't exist today.

[Updated on: Fri, 13 March 2015 00:11]

Re: Question concerning teaching on spirits [message #11538 is a reply to message #11537] Fri, 13 March 2015 00:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james  is currently offline james
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Hey Mark, thanks for your thoughts...and I agree, when we get a genuine glimpse of God and His awesome Glory we see just how ignorant it is to walk in pride.

After asking the above questions I started reading different commentaries on these scriptures and found some interesting thoughts. One person explained concerning "the sweet influences of Pleiades" that God was speaking of how the control of the solar systems, stars, sun, and moon effects our seasons. Anyway, another person did go into leviathan being representative of a spirit of pride. Also I came across another web page that agree with you about the creatures described being before the flood and probably were dinosaurs, since the description doesn't really fit any animal we have today...as you stated.

Thank you as well, William <grin> didn't want it to look like I was unappreciative of your reply...

[Updated on: Sat, 14 March 2015 13:56]


“But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,”
Re: Question concerning teaching on spirits [message #13600 is a reply to message #11535] Fri, 30 October 2020 06:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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I know this thread is old but I was reading back over some of the old ones tonight and, you'll have to pardon my forgetfulness, but I think it was Chuck Missler who had a bunch of information on the constellations mentioned in Job. If I could remember where it was I'd reference it, but at any rate, he stated that the Job references were, or behaved, exactly as written and that "science" was only now seeing just how accurate the Bible was on this subject.

I'll try to find the info and post it... it really was fascinating!

Now I feel like Ahimaaz... "I saw a great tumult, but I knew not what it was."

[2Sa 18:19-23, 29 KJV] 19 Then said Ahimaaz the son of Zadok, Let me now run, and bear the king tidings, how that the LORD hath avenged him of his enemies. 20 And Joab said unto him, Thou shalt not bear tidings this day, but thou shalt bear tidings another day: but this day thou shalt bear no tidings, because the king's son is dead. 21 Then said Joab to Cushi, Go tell the king what thou hast seen. And Cushi bowed himself unto Joab, and ran. 22 Then said Ahimaaz the son of Zadok yet again to Joab, But howsoever, let me, I pray thee, also run after Cushi. And Joab said, Wherefore wilt thou run, my son, seeing that thou hast no tidings ready? 23 But howsoever, [said he], let me run. And he said unto him, Run. Then Ahimaaz ran by the way of the plain, and overran Cushi.

... 29 And the king said, Is the young man Absalom safe? And Ahimaaz answered, When Joab sent the king's servant, and [me] thy servant, I saw a great tumult, but I knew not what [it was].

Blessings,
William


I want to believe!
Re: Question concerning teaching on spirits [message #13601 is a reply to message #13600] Fri, 30 October 2020 13:13 Go to previous message
Mark L  is currently offline Mark L
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Registered: October 2006
Location: Canada
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If you can find it I would be highly interested in reading it! I'll look myself as well if I have time.

Concerning Orion there was a huge amount of interest in ancient religions about it. As I recall off the top of my head the ancient Egyptians believed the path to eternity led through Orion. They and other ancient cultures had a lot to say about it. So what is interesting to me is that it is mentioned in the bible.

The Giza pyramid complex in Egypt for eg. is an exact representation of Orions belt. Those pyramids contain very advanced mathematical astronomical geometric formulas. As well as other advanced science. The egyptologists think these are interesting conundrums that have nothing to do with the age of the pyramids or their use as resting places for the pharaohs.
Which to my mind is nosense but like other professionals they aren't going to let wackos eccentrics pseudo-archeologists and christian fundies like me upset their carefully ordered applecarts. In my opinion they were built by refugees from the tower of babel trying to rebuild their lost civilization from before the flood. A civilization that by far exceeded ours.

Since this thread was started I have done some reading about these matters and would be very interested in what Missler had to say.

I should add that I am extremely careful reading about ancient religions and related issues. Most of researchers and commentators on those subjects are decidedly not christian and usually into things I am very leery of.

Edited to add for anyone knowledgeable that the ancients path to eternity was through the milky way. Orions belt refered to other matters.

[Updated on: Fri, 30 October 2020 14:08]

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