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Gog and Magog # 2 [message #13513] Tue, 04 August 2020 19:03 Go to next message
Mark L  is currently offline Mark L
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Factors affecting the War of Gog and Magog

A question that just begs to be answered is "Where is America" in all of this?

One of America's closest allies is under attack by a Russian Arab confederacy. For various reasons, America has stood behind Israel all of its existence. For America to stand back as its biggest enemy (Russia) attacks one of its closest allies is unthinkable. So why wouldn't they help?

Here is another question. Aside from the supernatural element ie: God putting a hook into Gog's mouth Why would Gog even try? America has been behind every war Israel has fought but it has always been on the diplomatic & supply side. They were all regional wars so no reason for America to get involved.

The Gog war in contrast is an existential war. In other words, they are going in to wipe them out. Israel's existence is at stake here. America not getting involved in a serious way is unthinkable. With the kind of serious firepower, America has at the ready in the eastern Mediterranean Gog would just attack?

The answer to the question is that something has to happen to hold America back from helping Israel. America is the economic military diplomatic cultural leader of the world. To see it just sit back and watch is simply unthinkable. Also, Russia talks big but militarily is not even close to a match for America. Even with their Arab confederacy.

We are living in the end times and for the reasons I have stated I think things are being held back right now. Paul said we would see the day coming (1 Thess. 5/4,6) Jesus said when we see it to look up and rejoice. There is no point in burying our heads in the sand. Bro. Hef said on these kinds of issues we need to be keeping up and watching.

God sometimes just simply acts supernaturally and lets the pcs fall where they will but not often. Generally, when he moves in the world it's with a place prepared for it. For Russia to act against Israel with America still ascendant is to my mind highly unlikely and bordering on the ludicrous.

So why would America hold back? I will list what I see as the possibilities with (in my opinion) the last one most likely.

1.The fulfillment of visions that have been given about America

A.A. Allen's vision of a submarine-based nuclear attack on America. Valdez had a vision of a nuclear missile falling on a major American city. A.A. Allen also had a vision of what appears to be (if we take it literally) a devastating epidemic. Bro. Freeman and others talked about Chinese soldiers in the streets of America. My opinion is that this is unlikely as it just isn't time yet. David Wilkerson also has had plenty to say as well. There have recently been people on youtube sharing visions and dreams. One that I listened to had Chinese and Russian soldiers on American streets in the near future. I guess we can wait and see but personally I highly doubt it. For a number of reasons but one good one is it just isn't time.

2. Economic judgment.
Where America simply doesn't have the money to maintain its economic and military clout. This is already happening to some extent. David Wilkerson and others have referred to this but again I just don't think it is time.

3.A Judicial Malaise
A Spirit of Stupor settles over the entire nation. The nation and its leaders just don't care or can't stir themselves to care. This has happened to other nations in history. The Aztecs for eg. It's judicial because the time for God's judgment had come. This is entirely possible I just don't think it is what is coming. Or at least not by itself.

4. A Deep Wound

I think part of the reason America won't reach out to help Israel is that it is going to experience a deep wound in its heart. In the emotional spiritual mental cultural economic heart of America. Not the physical heartland but the inner patriotic pride and makeup of America. More than just its pride but a deep wound. Many times people who experience deep inner wounds just withdraw into themselves. Lie down and curl up into a ball. 9/11 was an example of that.

Whatever it is it has to be something bad enough for America to draw up within itself. Many preachers including Bro Freeman have spoken of an endtime judgment of a great earthquake together with the fault line putting half of California into the ocean. Millions dead including Hollywood! That would probably qualify. William Branham also prophesied of Los Angeles lying at the bottom of the ocean

5. I think (my opinion) what is coming is a deep wound together with the fulfillment of David Wilkerson's prophecy of 30 days of catastrophic judgment on New York City. He talked about it after 9/11 and said 9/11 wasn't it and that it was still to come. I'm including that Wilkerson prophecy in a post below.

We need to always remember that God never forsakes his people even in the midst of disaster. He never leaves anything to chance even little things and his people are not little things.

Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
Is. 65/20

I'd also like to add about my comments on the Gog war. Mostly what I'm commenting on is to me just blindingly obvious. I think the Lord showed me a couple of things and gave me some wisdom on the matter but mostly it's just flat out reason. Plain thinking. No great supernatural revelations although "ahem" I'm standing ready for one Lord.

Re: Gog and Magog # 2 [message #13514 is a reply to message #13513] Tue, 04 August 2020 19:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mark L  is currently offline Mark L
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Prophetic Message to New York - Sept 7, 1992
Posted by: Wilkerson on Sunday, August 08, 2004 - 02:39 PM

by David Wilkerson, Times Square Church, 1657 Broadway, NYC, New York
10019.

This warning is not meant to scare you. It's meant only for you to take to the Lord and pray. This is what I believe God has shown me:

Thirty days of chastisement will fall on New York City such as the world has never seen. God is going to let down the walls. There will be unimaginable violence and looting. The violence will be so ferocious, it will shock the whole world. Our streets will be lined not just with the National Guard but with militia.

A thousand fires will burn at the same time throughout the city. The Los Angeles fires were confined to a few sections of that city, but New York will be ablaze in all its boroughs. Times Square will be ablaze, and the flames will ascend into heaven and be seen for miles. Fire trucks will not be able to handle it all.

Trains and buses will be shut down. Billions of dollars will be lost.
Broadway shows will stop completely. Businesses will flee the city in an unstoppable hemorrhage. Such things are expected in Third World countries,
but not in a civilized nation like the United States. Yet, in not too long time afterward, New York City will go completely bankrupt. The Queen City will be cast into the dirt, becoming a city of poverty.

You may ask, when will all this happen? All I can say is, I believe I will be here when it happens. Yet, when it does, God's people are not to panic
or fear.

========================

Calls and messages have flooded our ministry offices, asking, Was the terrorist attack on September 11 the calamity you were prophesying back in 1992?? No, not at all. What I saw coming will be much more severe. Indeed, if America rejects God's call to turn back to Him, we'll face the same judgments Israel faced. And they will hit not only New York but every region in the country. Even the heartland won't be spared. The nation's economy will collapse, and violence will erupt. Fires will consume our cities, and tanks will rumble through the streets....

I believe our window of opportunity to respond to God's call is brief. We all should pray that our nation repents and turns back to the Lord. But our most intense prayers should be for our own hearts: Lord, let me tremble not at the disasters, but at your Word. I want to hear your voice in all of this. Cause me to turn wholly to you."

[Updated on: Tue, 04 August 2020 19:12]

Re: Gog and Magog # 2 [message #13516 is a reply to message #13513] Wed, 05 August 2020 07:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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Concerning the US involvement...

What if (and this is an hypothetical situation) the rapture occurs (still putting off a definitive answer to the Gog/Magog timing thing!) before Israel finds themselves in dire straights.

First, there won't be as much of the Christian influences that have traditionally tied the US to Israel.

Secondly, surely someone will notice a mass resurrection of the saints and think that the end has come already (just think of how many theologies don't even recognize a pre-tribulation rapture!) and for that reason the US might just become totally isolationist in their thinking.

Given those circumstances, wouldn't it be natural to assume that most, if not all, of the pro-Israeli hype would be completely erased and replaced with a very self-preserving approach to life in general?

Blessings,
William

p.s. I know that all of your "where's America?" is aimed at the Gog/Magog situation so my hypothetical scenario is baseless as far as your original question goes, but, (thanks to you!) I haven't gotten my bearings refocused enough to be able to plop the whole Gog/Magog timing into my pre-trib-rapture thinking just yet!

[Updated on: Wed, 05 August 2020 19:48]


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Re: Gog and Magog # 2 [message #13520 is a reply to message #13513] Wed, 05 August 2020 19:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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Quote:
Here is another question. Aside from the supernatural element ie: God putting a hook into Gog's mouth Why would Gog even try? America has been behind every war Israel has fought but it has always been on the diplomatic & supply side. They were all regional wars so no reason for America to get involved.


Not sure about the answer but oil seems to be the most accepted reason they would attack, but you can't rule out just plain old hatred!

Also you can't just leave out the supernatural hooks-in-the-jaw reason.

The fact that it is God that has them hooked may give us a clue about the lack of US involvement... maybe there's another hook that is pulling on the good-old USofA during that time!

Blessings,
William

[Updated on: Thu, 06 August 2020 07:14]


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Re: Gog and Magog # 2 [message #13523 is a reply to message #13513] Thu, 06 August 2020 07:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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Alright, I'm a little more prepared now but I'm not ready to give anything that could remotely be considered definitive.

You've already given some possible answers to the "where's America" question so I'll only add to the possibilities by saying: What's to keep this Gog/Magog war from happening so quickly that there isn't time for the U.S. to become involved? Yes, 5/6ths of a population is a lot of people to destroy but since God is the Avenger it could happen in minutes. If the evil alliance started marching today it could all be over in a couple of weeks.

Next, is the problem you raised concerning the 7 year bond-fire which admittedly caused me a little consternation since you said there wasn't enough time for this to happen if the war took place mid-tribulation.

After thinking about this I'm not so sure it's as big of a deal as it was at first glance. I think that I mentioned that I didn't see too much of a problem if the war was at the beginning of the tribulation which would allow for a full seven years of weapon burning, obviously alleviating that issue. However...

Why must we assume that there won't be people burning fires throughout the 1000 year reign of Jesus? If so, the Gog/Magog war could be pre-tribulation, mid-tribulation or even post-tribulation and the fires could continue to burn for a full seven years even as Jesus reigned from His Throne in Jerusalem! Wouldn't this satisfy your objection as to the time of the war?

Of course, there could be a passage somewhere that intimates that burning the implements of war during the millennium is a no-no... in which case I will stand corrected if it's produced!

Oh, and before I forget, I said somewhere that the reason for the war could be simply hatred of Israel (and I mentioned oil as a possibility too)... but after re-reading the passage (Ezk 38:12-13) God indicates that the reason may be simply to "take a great spoil" or "prey" or "cattle and goods" or even "silver and gold"; so while an irrational hatred of Israel (we see that everywhere in the area today!) might be one of the motives, it doesn't seem to be the main motivation.

Blessings,
William


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Re: Gog and Magog # 2 [message #13524 is a reply to message #13513] Thu, 06 August 2020 07:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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Quote:
I'd also like to add about my comments on the Gog war. Mostly what I'm commenting on is to me just blindingly obvious. I think the Lord showed me a couple of things and gave me some wisdom on the matter but mostly it's just flat out reason. Plain thinking. No great supernatural revelations although "ahem" I'm standing ready for one Lord.


Okay, the suspense is killing us... do you have more? <grin>

Blessings,
William


I want to believe!
Re: Gog and Magog # 2 [message #13525 is a reply to message #13523] Thu, 06 August 2020 13:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mark L  is currently offline Mark L
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william wrote on Thu, 06 August 2020 07:18

Okay, the suspense is killing us... do you have more? <grin>


Heh heh No more but I'm ready.


william wrote on Thu, 06 August 2020 07:08
Alright,

What's to keep this Gog/Magog war from happening so quickly that there isn't time for the U.S. to become involved? Yes, 5/6ths of a population is a lot of people to destroy but since God is the Avenger it could happen in minutes. If the evil alliance started marching today it could all be over in a couple of weeks.


My feeling from reading the passage is that the war goes on for a period of time. I think they attack when do because America is so involved with themselves. They take advantage of the situation.

As far as I understand it the face of the earth is recreated to garden conditions. So there wouldn't be fires burning then from the war.

There are also a couple of rather odd comments put in there and in the Joel passage that I wasn't sure about. I'll post them later and see what you think.

I'm going to go back over all the end time stuff and look at it for myself. Not so much the gog war but endtime in general. What Jesus said Danial Paul etc. I don't think I have ever really studied it through for myself. I just kind of took in the teaching as well as everything I heard over the years and left it at that.
Re: Gog and Magog # 2 [message #13526 is a reply to message #13525] Thu, 06 August 2020 14:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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Okay, I've always kinda thought that way too (about millennium conditions) but I'm wondering where the idea came from? Yes, the lamb/lion (or is it wolf, Gary!) but the actual physical stuff turning back to the garden like conditions? It seems to me that the whole earth is built upon one layer of death after another and it truly would take a new heavens and a new earth to clean up the mess (but that won't happen until the eternal state!).

It is hard to conceive of the heavenly city coming down and then being polluted with smoke from the fire though... idunno.

Blessings,
William


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Re: Gog and Magog # 2 [message #13527 is a reply to message #13526] Fri, 07 August 2020 03:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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Another thought after reading Is.2 and Zech.14 (esp. vss 2-3) and comparing these passages to Ezk 38-39. There doesn't seem to be an instant acceptance of Jesus' reign right after the tribulation period. I've always thought that when He returns it would be instant paradise, but apparently not. In reading Zech. 14 it seems as if the nations are still in turmoil and it's even stated in vs 2 that He will gather the nations together for battle, eerily similar to the Ezk 38:4 comment about hooks in their jaws.

I'm not confident in placing too much emphasis on the chronological layout of Ezekiel but there is a progression from the dry bones to the Gog/Magog war and then to the millennial temple. I'll go back and read some of the objections you posted concerning the different views on the timing (pre-mid-post) of this war but right now it's looking more and more possible that this thing could be post-tribulation (or at least at the very end of tribulation). The garden of Eden conditions don't seem to be universal (or extend to all nations) if we take into consideration those nations that fail to come to Jerusalem during the feast of Tabernacles:

[Zec 14:16-19 KJV] 16 And it shall come to pass, [that] every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. 17 And it shall be, [that] whoso will not come up of [all] the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. 18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that [have] no [rain]; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. 19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

There is so much complexity in putting all of this together; I'm wondering if I'm missing something here?

Blessings,
William


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Re: Gog and Magog # 2 [message #13528 is a reply to message #13527] Fri, 07 August 2020 15:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mark L  is currently offline Mark L
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There is so much complexity in putting all of this together; I'm wondering if I'm missing something here?

Ya the bible doesn't just put it all together in one place in easy to read fashion. Its a really big subject. I've been going over all the Zech. tapes as I've been putting them up on my computer. Just one left. I found the info so detailed sometimes I didn't bother taking good notes. Zech 14 is talking about the battle of armageddon. Garden conditions apply in the millennium but so does sin. At least to some extent.

All the various views and objections I posted there came right out of my theology notes. With some light editing and paraphrasing.

My thoughts and opinions started with the Matt 25 stuff

[Updated on: Fri, 07 August 2020 16:56]

Re: Gog and Magog # 2 [message #13529 is a reply to message #13528] Fri, 07 August 2020 18:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Quote:
Zech 14 is talking about the battle of armageddon.


Oh, I forgot about that one! <grin>

Blessings,
William


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Re: Gog and Magog # 2 [message #13530 is a reply to message #13528] Fri, 14 August 2020 06:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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Quote:
Garden conditions apply in the millennium but so does sin. At least to some extent.


Death also seems to exist and it's not until the "new heavens and new earth" that the curse is completely lifted:

[Rev 22:3 KJV] 3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

I'm still not convinced that during the millennium the conditions would prohibit the burning of weapons. Yes, there will be "garden-like" conditions but life seems to go on as it does now with the exceptions being the nation of Israel, specifically Jerusalem.

It's not a big deal and I'm certainly not claiming a clear and absolute understanding, but if the only objection, to the timing of the Gog/Magog war, hinges on the seven year burning of the weapons not extending into the millennium, then I don't think it's a very strong argument.

Can't wait until you get into Zechariah!

Blessings,
William



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Re: Gog and Magog # 2 [message #13531 is a reply to message #13513] Fri, 14 August 2020 18:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gary  is currently offline Gary
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Mark Wrote: "For a number of reasons but one good one is it just isn't time."

I don't understand how you can say: "it just isn't time". Do you mean; That something more needs to take place here in America?

Jesus said, if the Man knew what hour the thief was coming he would of waited and watched. And that He the Lord was coming as a thief in the night.

What we see taking place in America is causing great internal strife. I just saw a you tube video where a woman is stating they do not care if they burn down America. She was filled with hate and vengeance. I got it from my barber who was filled with the same hate towards this country, I was shocked when she (my barber), was going off, on trump. They just had some big riots in Indianapolis with looting and burning.

HF stated God was going to judge America through the black race, he mentioned seeing a faceless black man in a vision. I don't remember for sure what series he shared that vision. I think were on the verge of either a great revival or maybe a great collapse and breakdown of society. Could this be a "deep wound" that you mentioned.

The winds of change are here. The Lord did tell Abraham that He would spare Sodom if ten righteous were in the city. I pray the Lord will continue His mercy on this nation. I keep thinking were not in Kansas anymore.

In Him,
Gary

Re: Gog and Magog # 2 [message #13532 is a reply to message #13531] Fri, 14 August 2020 19:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mark L  is currently offline Mark L
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Gary wrote on Fri, 14 August 2020 18:01
Mark Wrote: "For a number of reasons but one good one is it just isn't time."

I don't understand how you can say: "it just isn't time". Do you mean; That something more needs to take place here in America?



GARY Nice to see you back. I hope everything is going well for you.

When I say it just isn't time it with the proviso that I was mainly giving my opinion. The Lord did give me some wisdom and then I added some careful analysis and thought.

One good reason for my statement of it not being time yet is that Jesus said that a great persecution has to come first. That is assuming, of course, that judgement on America is part of Gods endtime work and I think it is. Luke 21/12 Before God can deal with America in any really serious way he has to deal with American christians first. Or to put it in different terms - judgment has to start at the house of God.

It is highly interesting in light of current events your mention of Freemans vision of a faceless black man. I remember him mentioning it as well but don't know what series.

I think what we're seeing in America right now is just the faint far off rumbling thunders of the approaching storm.

Re: Gog and Magog # 2 [message #13533 is a reply to message #13532] Fri, 14 August 2020 19:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Wasn't it in the Christian Ethics series under race relations? I may be wrong.

Blessings,
William


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Re: Gog and Magog # 2 [message #13534 is a reply to message #13533] Fri, 14 August 2020 20:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Brother Freeman mentioned that there were 2 tapes--God's Answer to the Race Question, so I assume that he mentioned the vision there.

I found the quote on a YouTube video around the 36 minute mark. Here is the link:

Baha'ism, Black Muslims, Zen Buddhism, & Transcendental Meditation, Cults - Dr Hobart E Freeman
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2H6c35KX78o


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Re: Gog and Magog # 2 [message #13535 is a reply to message #13532] Sat, 15 August 2020 21:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Quote:
GARY Nice to see you back. I hope everything is going well for you.


Thank you doing much better. Started a prayer meeting in our house. The world seems to be changing rapidly, but I rest in the fact that the Lord is still in control.

William; listened to the tape from 26 to 38 was very interesting what was shared did not hear the vision part on there will try listening to more of the tape later. HF definitely did his research on the black muslims and the information on the black race.

I ran across something interesting concerning Matt. 24:1-2. You may have heard this information. These verses were a prophecy given by the Lord concerning the destruction of the temple.

In less then 70 years, Titus marched on Jerusalem with his armies. He laid siege to the city and waited for the Jews to starve. According to Josephus in the "War of the Jews", chapter seven there was more Jews that killed Jews in the city because of starvation, then the Roman soldiers that killed those who were left. Bands of Jews broke into each others houses and killed other Jews for food. When Titus finally marched on the city the people were nothing more then skeletons and he took the people and paraded them down the streets of Rome as his trophies.

Church tradition tells us that one night the church of Jerusalem that was in the city, received a prophecy from the Lord to get out of the city and use the east gate immediately. The story was told that the Romans forgot to put a guard on the east gate and the Christians escaped the horrible conditions that happened shortly later.

The conditions were worse then the holocaust, I do not have this book, "War on the Jews", by Josephus so was unable to verify information.

In Him,
Gary

James hope you got my text on C.S. Lewis.



Re: Gog and Magog # 2 [message #13536 is a reply to message #13535] Sat, 15 August 2020 23:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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Quote:
William; listened to the tape from 26 to 38 was very interesting what was shared did not hear the vision part on there will try listening to more of the tape later. HF definitely did his research on the black muslims and the information on the black race.


I'm sorry Gary, I should have been clearer in what I posted. That youtube video just mentioned the 2 tapes on race relations... it didn't contain the vision.

I don't have a copy of the tape that contains the vision and I don't think it's among those uploaded to youtube, at least I couldn't find it.

Quote:
I do not have this book, "War on the Jews", by Josephus so was unable to verify information.


There are free copies/pdfs of Josephus' works on the internet, so you should be able to find it easily enough.

I think that those that believe that 70AD was the fulfillment the apocalyptic prophecies are called "Preterists". There's also a bunch of information out there on the net about them... of course, there are many many variations within that framework!

Blessings,
William

[Updated on: Sat, 15 August 2020 23:05]


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Re: Gog and Magog # 2 [message #13537 is a reply to message #13530] Wed, 19 August 2020 00:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gary  is currently offline Gary
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william wrote on Fri, 14 August 2020 06:13
Garden conditions apply in the millennium but so does sin. At least to some extent.

Death also seems to exist and it's not until the "new heavens and new earth" that the curse is completely lifted:

[Rev 22:3 KJV] 3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

I'm still not convinced that during the millennium the conditions would prohibit the burning of weapons. Yes, there will be "garden-like" conditions but life seems to go on as it does now with the exceptions being the nation of Israel, specifically Jerusalem.

It's not a big deal and I'm certainly not claiming a clear and absolute understanding, but if the only objection, to the timing of the Gog/Magog war, hinges on the seven year burning of the weapons not extending into the millennium, then I don't think it's a very strong argument.

Can't wait until you get into Zechariah!

Blessings,
William




Don't know the whole conversation here but I always thought Gog/Magog was destroyed before the tribulation. The other day I ran across this scripture:

Quote:
Rev. 20:7-8 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is the sand of the sea.


I thought they were destroyed at the battle of Armaggedon?

Any rate just wondering.

In Him,
Gary







Re: Gog and Magog # 2 [message #13538 is a reply to message #13537] Wed, 19 August 2020 01:48 Go to previous message
william  is currently offline william
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Quote:
I thought they were destroyed at the battle of Armaggedon?


Gog/Magog are destroyed before the millennium (whether it is at the beginning of the tribulation or sometime during the tribulation, I'm not sure). The thing to remember though is that there will be people occupying those areas after the millennium and they, being aroused by Satan, will be involved, yet again, in an attempt to battle against God's people.

Blessings,
William

[Updated on: Wed, 19 August 2020 01:49]


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