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Where did . . . [message #12340] Sat, 30 December 2017 21:22 Go to next message
Mark L  is currently offline Mark L
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Where did demons come from.

Never being one to step back and be shy about rendering an opinion when one is called for I am going to put pen to paper and give mine. Of course some may characterize my opinions as shooting my mouth off but that can't be helped.

Before I do here is some background info and some thoughts on the whole subject. I really started wondering about the subject as I put my OT theology notes up. Because the subject was addressed there.

Bro. Freemans opinion according to the notes is . . .

If God had wanted us to know where demons came from he would have told us. The bible just assumes their existence.

Without trying to be critical I think that is ridiculous. There are copious amounts of material about spiritual personalities and the spiritual world in the bible. Why put it all in there if God doesn't want us to know things. Obviously it doesn't directly tell us where they came from but what is wrong with applying some thought and reason to the subject? The whole subject of theology comes from thought and reason. Obviously based on the bible but much is derived facts based on reason.

There are several cautions in the bible on the subject. Here is one.

Col.2/18 . . . and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen vainly puffed up with his fleshly mind.

In other words we are to be careful how we deal with subject and not get obsessed and off on tangents. Or too far into speculation. But we aren't doing that only taking a careful look at the subject.

Various Theories From the theology notes with some added info from me. It should also be noted that Bro. Freeman didn't believe any of these were correct.

a) Demons are fallen angels. This comes out of the book of Enoch in the apocrypha. The problem is in the bible there are demons and fallen angels. Jesus never cast out fallen angels. People really need to be careful here. I read all the time of people mixing these things up. Calling Satan who is one of the cherubim an angel for eg.

b) They are a fallen pre-adamic race of men.
In other words there were people who lived on the earth before Adam was created. The spirits of those people are the demons. The gap theory falls in here as well as some who teach an "old earth". Neanderthal as a separate intelligent species more or less equal to men. And more.
The problem with all that is none of it is in the bible. Not the place to discuss gap theory etc so I will leave it at that.

c) Josephus said demons are the spirits of the wicked dead. I haven't had a chance to read Josephus yet so I'm just going by what HEF said. Point being I don 't know how serious he was in making the statement. For our purposes that is refuted all through the bible.

d) Jewish tradition has it that demons are the offspring of Adam and Lilith (a female demon). That is a ludicrous position at least for anyone with a sound appreciation of scripture.

e) The giants (nephilim) of Gen 6 died in the flood and became demons. I found this on the internet and heard it from family as well. I think as did Hef that this was referring to their inward nature. Rather than physical size. Apparently this has been making the rounds of the charismatic world for some time. I'm not going to address this except to say I disagree.

So where did they come from?

Here's my answer. Let me say right off that it isn't very satisfactory as I don't have all the answers.
This world was made for us. In fact the whole universe. Gods initial plan was for us humans was to procreate and eventually inhabit the entire universe.
I think that they all came out of the spiritual world. Why? Probably as part of the curse. Nothing else fits. There is one scripture that alludes to it.

Rev.12/4 His tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven and did cast them to the earth.

I think this is a clear reference to where they came from. If we take the very conservative position of Gen 1 being the absolute beginning of our universe and world (as we should) then there was no place or position for them prior to the fall. So if they came after the fall as they obviously did then where did they come from? There was nothing in this world for them to come from.

So as I say it isn't a very satisfactory answer. It leaves me with a lot of questions. Which I don't intend to start speculating about. But nothing else fits the facts. They weren't here before us as there was nothing before us. They didn't have their origin here as it isn't their world. Its ours. So they had to have come here from somewhere else. And the only somewhere else is the spiritual world (which I'm going to talk about in another post below)

One question or problem I have with my own thoughts on the matter is why do some demons want to inhabit people. Live inside them. Craving a body. That would almost suggest that one of the false theories stated above is correct. eg the spirits of wicked men from the past. I don't believe that I just don't have an answer.


Re: Where did . . . [message #12341 is a reply to message #12340] Sat, 30 December 2017 21:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mark L  is currently offline Mark L
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The word "heaven" is a generic term. A catch all phrase. It isn't meant to be a clear concise description of a specific place. Heaven or the spiritual realm is filled with realms, dominions, universes, kingdoms, spheres, domains. In my opinion there are too many for a human to easily count. And there are ways to travel between them. All of them filled with personalities we know nothing about. One of Billy Grahams preacher kids thinks heaven is a planet somewhere in our universe. Again without trying to be critical that is a very simple opinion. I don't think people really understand how big God actually is. Ask him to show you.

As I have said before our universe as big as it is really is just a small neighborhood park compared to everything else there is. AND there are spiritual personalities that see it as a small neighborhood park .

"Demons" likewise is a generic term. A catchall term. The bible speaks of many different kinds and those who study these things or are gifted know of lots more. Here are a few spoken of in the bible. I'm not going to explain these just list them and not comment further except to say these are not mythical creatures or someones imagination. It is speaking of spiritual personalities. Demons!


1. The Shedim—demons with rooster feet that Hef talked about in the OT notes
2. The screech owl- night hag- name of a female night demon . Lilith
3. Leviathan the piercing serpent – leviathan that crooked serpent - Isaiah 27/1-2
4. The dragon is not Leviathan Isaiah 27/2
5. The cockatrice – Is.59/5
6. Fiery flying serpents – Is.14/29 They may or may not be the cockatrice
7. Satyrs - OT notes
8. Rahab – name of an mythical (?) sea monster - Is. 51/9 Psalm 89/10
9. Hornet - The word refers to a mythical (?) creature – the smasher Ex.23/28


A couple of other notes.

In this world there are various species of creatures. Cats for eg. The top of the heap would be the lion/tiger right down to the house cat. Varying in abilities strength and intelligence. But all of the same " order". It is exactly the same with all the other personalities in the spiritual realm. There are various "classes and orders" consisting of many types of personality in the same class. Just like Cats.

Seraphim for eg The ones in Isaiah 6 would be the top of the heap. There are others of that class mentioned in the bible and lots in the world. All varying in strength ability and intelligence. In my opinion the Phoenix of Greece and Rome are of Seraphim order. As well as the mythical (?) dragons spoken of around the world.

Or Angels. We have the archangels noted in scripture. Gabriel and Michael. Michael is said to be "one of" the chief princes. Dan. 10/13
Here is another one Rev. 18/1. Apparently not just an ordinary angel. Great power and great glory.
Here is another one. Rev. 10/1 again apparently not just an ordinary angel but someone with more authority and power. Some think this is Jesus. I would disagree.
My point here is there are angels created with more strength ability and intelligence than others. Varying personalities within the same class.

Another issue worth noting is that sin is personal. Not all the angels sinned. Some did and some didn't. It is exactly the same with all the other personalities God made. Some did and some didn't. Some of the cherubim did and some didn't. Some of the class of the Seraphim did and some didn't. Same with all the other classes and orders. For that matter it is same with humanity. Some are saved and some aren't. My point is that some of what we call demons are many different classes and orders of beings and some sinned and some didn't. Some fell into the devils camp because of sin (we call them demons) and some didn't sin and stayed in Gods. We have both active in our world


[Updated on: Sun, 31 December 2017 00:45]

Re: Where did . . . [message #12342 is a reply to message #12341] Sun, 31 December 2017 03:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mark L  is currently offline Mark L
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What about the devil? Where did he come from?

Ezek. 28/11-19
Satan was named Lucifer. Light bearer. Satan is the hebrew name for adversary. When it is used of the devil it has the definite article in front of it. "The" adversary.

He was one of the cherubim and apparently an exalted one as he had privileges no one else had. Ezek. 28/14 walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire ie: he was free to move about in the presence of God.
He must have been highly placed among the cherubim. Maybe even top dog. I think as far as the hierarchy of power and authority in heaven is concerned he was second or third tier. But among the cherubim he was in the top tier. Probably one of several. 28/16 says he was the covering cherub.
Vs 12-13 perfect in beauty. Someone said and (I agree with) that all the creative energy and wisdom of God went into creating him. The most beautiful creature ever.

vs 17 it was because of his great beauty that he sinned. His beauty corrupted his intelligence. He saw what sin was as a possibility and sin being what it is it tempted him and he gave into it. He saw himself sitting in the highest place as God. Possibly replacing God. If he didn't think he had a chance he never would have tried.

Isaiah 14/13-14 - The 5 I wills of Satan
1. I will ascend into heaven
2. I will exalt my throne above the stars of God. Stars being other spiritual personalities
3. I will sit upon the mount of congregation
4. I will ascend above the heights
5. I will be like the most high

But before all this there was a time in Heaven when it was good times and love and glory. Everyone loved the Lord. He was seen as great and glorious but also in a sense as a kindly old man. He was God and everyone worshiped him. All peaceful and enjoyable. Nothing to mar the absolute peacefulness and perfection of heaven.

Then when Satan who was very close to the Lord and in his very presence sinned the wrath of God erupted. No one had ever seen anything like it before. Everyone fled in fear and terror. The cherubim and the great princes archangels and all the myriads of personalities around the throne. All of Heaven saw God in a way they never had before. They found out what the fear of God was. It was such an eruption of wrath they fled in total mindless panic.

As they calmed down (probably over a long period of time) their reason came back to them and they looked at and thought about what they seen and experienced. The Holy Spirit began to draw them back probably starting with the great princes. Drew them back into the presence of God. They now knew what sin was and what the fear of God was. Their perception and understanding of God had changed forever.

I am of the opinion that it was during this time when God was totally alone that the class and order of the Seraphim were created.

Satan like all the rest of heaven had fled in mindless panic totally blasted through with the fear of God. Whereas everyone else in heaven saw it happen he got it directed straight at him. Thinking he was pushing a loving kindly God off his throne he found himself facing an angry righteous holy God and saw he was infinitely beyond anything he had ever conceived him to be. Infinitely greater in power righteousness holiness wrath and wisdom.

Fleeing mindlessly into the furthest reaches of heaven where he was alone eventually his mind and reason returned to him. He then began to examine what had happened to him and toward him. What he had done and how it had changed him.

As he thought things through he started seeing and understanding what sin was and what it does to someone (mystery of iniquity). He must have anguished and cried greatly knowing he couldn't go back. He started looking at what he had done until he understood what evil was and started seeing greater evil. He had no one to tempt him. He tempted himself by coming to realize a greater evil and sin. At first he mightily resisted sin maybe even for long long time wandering through the uninhabited furthest regions of heaven. Crying out in great anguish of spirit not wanting to be what he was.
(forever cut off from God) He wanted to go back but knew he couldn't. But always eventually giving into it.

He kept thinking and looking at sin and what had happened to him and understanding more and more. Trying to resist it not wanting to become more evil yet always giving into it. As he thought it through and understood more he became more and more sinful.
He had no one to teach him he taught himself always eventually giving into it. Until finally after a long time he just gave up and gave himself over to it. Seeking it out and learning it until he came past the point of any desire for good and desired only evil.

He examined thought tempted himself sought it out and came to a complete understanding of what evil and sin were. And he totally gave himself over to it. Oh how God must have grieved over this lost son.

It was at this point that he began to lay plans to tempt to sin all the other people in heaven. Still totally alone. He chose his targets carefully. I think probably at first many fell into the temptation. Maybe even whole kingdoms. Eventually 1/3 of heaven fell into sin. It is important to understand that prior to the devils sin no one knew what sin was. They didn't know what evil was they didn't know what good was either. They were innocent. This issue worked its way through all of heaven and eventually two kingdoms began to develop. The lines between them becoming sharper and sharper until eventually there were two distinct kingdoms. This probably took ages. One kingdom given completely to righteousness and one to evil.


[Updated on: Sun, 31 December 2017 03:02]

Re: Where did . . . [message #12344 is a reply to message #12342] Mon, 01 January 2018 02:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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Mark:
Quote:

I think that they all came out of the spiritual world. Why? Probably as part of the curse. Nothing else fits. There is one scripture that alludes to it.


I don't have an answer here but didn't we hear something along the lines that the demons were incomplete without a body? I can't say for sure that brother Freeman made that statement but it seems as if I heard it from him. If true, then it would seem that they (the demons) were at one time in some type of body (whether spiritual or physical, I don't know).

Anymore thoughts?

Blessings,
William

p.s. I know you've posted a whole lot of material so I'm not trying to just pick out one statement to keep you busy from other important stuff, but the whole subject is one where we could use some enlightenment if you've got more thoughts!


I want to believe!
Re: Where did . . . [message #12345 is a reply to message #12344] Mon, 01 January 2018 02:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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Mark:
Quote:

One question or problem I have with my own thoughts on the matter is why do some demons want to inhabit people. Live inside them. Craving a body. That would almost suggest that one of the false theories stated above is correct. eg the spirits of wicked men from the past. I don't believe that I just don't have an answer.


I just saw this!!!


I want to believe!
Re: Where did . . . [message #12419 is a reply to message #12340] Sun, 21 January 2018 22:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mark L  is currently offline Mark L
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Another question I have which again I don't have an answer for is this. Why do some demons have a particular sin appetite or desire or craving for. In other words why is it a demon of anger/hate/lust/rebellion. etc. etc.

They get a hold of (or in) someone and manifest their perverted desires through them. Is it because it is what they themselves are?
Or do they just identify so closely with that particular sin that they become it? Is it that someone in the hierarchy assigns a particular sin to one.

None of those answers really satisfy me.

Re: Where did . . . [message #12865 is a reply to message #12340] Sat, 12 October 2019 16:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mark L  is currently offline Mark L
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I think I posted this somewhere else here but in the interest of completeness I'm putting my thoughts in here as well. I was listening to Hefs tapes on Jude and he referred to the angels that sinned.

Jude 6, 11 Peter 2/4

His explanation referred those vs back to Gen 6/1-5 I would respectfully disagree. Here is my explanation.

Prior to our world I think that as an understanding of sin and temptation began to be understood throughout all of heaven. Some personalities gave into it and some didn't. Heaven then eventually started to divide into two distinct kingdoms. Keep in mind that this was all new to the inhabitants of heaven. They were sorting out all the issues so to speak. Authorities and thrones being placed in both kingdoms.

I think the angels that sinned (and maybe other personalities not mentioned as well) in their wickedness and striving with the other kingdom just simply went too far. Michael took an army and just went into the other kingdom and took the ones that went too far and chained them up until the final judgment. I'm sure the other kingdom got the point that there was higher authority that they had a place and sphere of activity but it was definitely limited and they had better not get out of line. Actually it is no different in our world.

Those evil angels are there now with their sinful hearts life and personality just roiling and restless within them. Very limited movement. Their sinful hearts not giving them any peace. Roaring and raging in anger and terrified wrath. Wishing they weren't there.
Sorry a bit of poetic lience there. I could see that in the spirit but wasn't sure how to phrase it.


It is interesting to note as well that both holy and evil angels (and other personalities again like us) all started out innocent. It was the understanding and temptation to sin that brought each of them to where they are now. Holy or evil. Like in our world the resistance to sin eventually worked its way through their life and in the case of holy angels it brought them to the point they couldn't sin if they wanted to. They exist in sinless perfection but that wasn't a gift It was the work of the experience in their life. Same with demons/angels. Giving into the temptation once brought it into their life and it worked it way through their life as well to the point where they were as evil as it was possible for them to be. To put it in more graphic terms if a demon or angel was standing at the edge of the lake of fire ready to be thrown in and God said to them "turn from your sin and I won't put you in hell. They wouldn't turn. They couldn't turn. They would be unable to.
Re: Where did . . . [message #12866 is a reply to message #12340] Sat, 12 October 2019 16:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mark L  is currently offline Mark L
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Another interesting point about chains of light.

Jude 6 "everlasting chains under darkness"
11 Peter 2/4 "chains of darkness"

There is lots to say here but I'm not going to get into a lot of speculation. "Light" from our world is generally from our sun but it has properties science doesn't really understand. There are also references in the bible to light that aren't really explained. Gen.1-3 There is also light in the spiritual world obviously with far more properties than here. I think the chains were made out of light or dark light (there's an oxymoron) I don't understand it but if we take it literally that is what it says. Unbreakable chains made out of light or darkness. I think personalities in the eternal lake of fire will be held there with chains of light as well.

Matt. 4/13-16 another interesting vs on light. "sat in darkness ... saw great light... light is sprung up" Again I don't entirely understand it but it is literally true.

[Updated on: Sat, 12 October 2019 16:49]

Re: Where did . . . [message #12867 is a reply to message #12866] Sun, 13 October 2019 02:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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Thanks for posting Mark; I was beginning to think I had broken something in the server move!

I'm still trying to digest it all before jumping in with both feet. Don't let that discourage you from posting... I am really interested in pursuing this further.

Blessings,
William


I want to believe!
Re: Where did . . . [message #12868 is a reply to message #12340] Sun, 13 October 2019 09:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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Mark L wrote on Sat, 30 December 2017 21:22
Where did demons come from.

...Without trying to be critical I think that is ridiculous. There are copious amounts of material about spiritual personalities and the spiritual world in the bible. Why put it all in there if God doesn't want us to know things. Obviously it doesn't directly tell us where they came from but what is wrong with applying some thought and reason to the subject? The whole subject of theology comes from thought and reason. Obviously based on the bible but much is derived facts based on reason.


Well, to be fair to brother Freeman, his position did come from derived facts based upon reason and you admit that the bible doesn't tell us where they came from so one could reason from the facts that God didn't tell us... for some reason!

Quote:

e) The giants (nephilim) of Gen 6 died in the flood and became demons. I found this on the internet and heard it from family as well. I think as did Hef that this was referring to their inward nature. Rather than physical size. Apparently this has been making the rounds of the charismatic world for some time. I'm not going to address this except to say I disagree.


Perhaps we shouldn't dismiss this too quickly. Whether or not they were giants is irrelevant--they were a hybrid offspring.

Isn't it reasonable? Consider what we know about humankind. We are given the power of procreation. Our offspring are candidates for the salvation offered to us by God.

If the Nephilim of Genesis 6 were the offspring of some type of angelic being and a human woman does this obligate God to offer them salvation? What happens when this type of being dies? If they have no chance of salvation (and I don't know what I'm talking about here!) could they have some other purpose? Why couldn't these make up the demonic realm?

Not fully angelic, not fully human, they seem to fit the category of beings that don't fit the mold of either angels or humans... why can't this be demons? Just a little bit of my own personal reasoning thrown in here!

Quote:


Rev.12/4 His tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven and did cast them to the earth.


But there's (as far as I know) no reference to any demon in heaven, they seem to be earth-dwellers.

Clearly there are angels in heaven and these often show up in the earthly realm but no mention of demons.

Quote:

I think this is a clear reference to where they came from. If we take the very conservative position of Gen 1 being the absolute beginning of our universe and world (as we should) then there was no place or position for them prior to the fall. So if they came after the fall as they obviously did then where did they come from? There was nothing in this world for them to come from.


The Nephilim appeared after the fall. They died. Did they have 'souls'? Souls that couldn't be saved? I think that it makes just as much sense as this being their origin as the one you are making.

Quote:

They didn't have their origin here as it isn't their world. Its ours.


The Nephilim had their origin here. No mention of them before Gen 6. And since they seem to fall into the category of originating from a group that obviously was in opposition to God... a group that, as far as I know, had no promise of redemption... and since they were half-human presumably having a life-source that didn't die when their flesh died (i.e. souls) why couldn't this be demons? The demons know their fate and are allowed to operate in our realm--how does this not fit?

Quote:
One question or problem I have with my own thoughts on the matter is why do some demons want to inhabit people. Live inside them. Craving a body. That would almost suggest that one of the false theories stated above is correct. eg the spirits of wicked men from the past. I don't believe that I just don't have an answer.


Yikes, this is making more and more sense... craving a body... almost like us [2Co 5:2 KJV] 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:


I want to believe!
Re: Where did . . . [message #12869 is a reply to message #12867] Mon, 14 October 2019 17:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mark L  is currently offline Mark L
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william wrote on Sun, 13 October 2019 02:43
Thanks for posting Mark; I was beginning to think I had broken something in the server move!
Blessings,
William


I first logged in and saw the green I thought it was my computer.

[Updated on: Mon, 14 October 2019 17:59]

Re: Where did . . . [message #12870 is a reply to message #12868] Mon, 14 October 2019 18:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mark L  is currently offline Mark L
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william wrote on Sun, 13 October 2019 09:19


. . . they were a hybrid offspring.




I don't think they were hybrid offspring. I think they were completely human. I think all the spiritual beings that have anything to do with our world have the ability to to take on a human body or manifest themselves physically in human form. As such their offspring would have souls and be human in every sense of the word as they are procreated in the same way everyone else is.

As well as that they (speaking of demons and various spiritual personalities) can have themselves placed into a human womb and be born as human and live a human life (like our Son of God did) Yet still keeping their essential nature. I don't have all the answers to this. I do know they do it and it is fairly common. In the occult they are called "walk ins" Some of the big music stars are as well as ordinary people AND one "very" well known and current JDS charismatic mega minister. Yes its probably the one you're thinking of. Bro Freeman called him an angel of light. Again big subject let me just say when they do this they are limited to human intelligence and abilities.

I also know about one other minister who fits in here who founded a charismatic/Pentecostal megachurch and has now passed from the scene.

The "Sons of God".
I don't believe these are angels. I'll put why in another post. I think they are a specific class of spiritual personality that like everyone else started out innocent and then yielded to or resisted temptation. So there are some in each kingdom. The word sons to me indicates they have a closer relationship to God them maybe a lot of the others spiritual personalities do. We are called sons for eg.

We see them in Job 38/7 Morning Stars and Sons of God two different kinds of spiritual personalities. Both present as God created . I don't believe they were there as spectators either. Once the original creation was done they probably were busy putting things together. Obviously these Sons of God were the ones who resisted temptation and stayed in the kingdom.

We also see them in Job.1/6, 2/1 Satan here is coming before the Lord to give a report of matters he was responsible for and he came in the company of personalities he was comfortable around. In other words the same general intelligence and abilities he had.

Gen 6.
I think the Sons of God here are a class of spiritual personality who have authority and bureaucratic responsibility for the orderly running of some aspects of our world. Responsible to Satan who is responsible to God . Big subject.

I don't get the impression from the passage that there are a whole lot of them here as they would have created a whole new race which would have taken over the world rather than individuals who really stood out.

Keeping in mind here my thought that they took on human form and procreated in the usual way. The use of the word "wives" indicates to me that it was more than a passing fancy. As rape for eg. But a continuing long term relationship. Probably moving back and forth between each world. Big subject not a lot of info given. Sure is interesting though.

[Updated on: Mon, 14 October 2019 18:43]

Re: Where did . . . [message #12871 is a reply to message #12870] Mon, 14 October 2019 19:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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Were they able to partake of the redemption plan?

Another statement:
Quote:
I don't get the impression from the passage that there are a whole lot of them here as they would have created a whole new race which would have taken over the world rather than individuals who really stood out.


Could this be a part of the puzzle that led to the flood?

Blessings,
William


I want to believe!
Re: Where did . . . [message #12872 is a reply to message #12871] Mon, 14 October 2019 19:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mark L  is currently offline Mark L
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I actually had that thought too.
Re: Where did . . . [message #12873 is a reply to message #12868] Wed, 16 October 2019 21:04 Go to previous message
james  is currently offline james
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Just so ya know I'm still paying attention I'll throw in what came to mind as I was reading the exchange of thoughts.

Demons, "craving a body..."

It's obvious to me that they absolutely crave a body to inhabit. I think that's the reason they're so hard to get rid of in so many cases...Jesus once told His disciples, who had failed in their attempt to deliver the young boy(Mark 9:29) , that this kind only went out by prayer and fasting. No quick command to come out in the Name of Jesus, but with spiritual warfare, prayer and fasting. They didn't want to leave, they fought with all their might against the deliverance, throwing the kid into the fire and causing him to convulse.

Jesus said that when the house and been cleaned to keep it cleaned because they will try to return with seven more and cause more trouble than before. ( Matt.12:44-45 )

I'm thinking "a demon behind every bush" isn't nearly as big a problem as a demon inhabiting people is, they're probably more effective at fulfilling Satan's plans that way.

I guess I don't know so much about their origin, but I am aware of their existence and see the manifestation of their presence in people regularly.


“But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,”
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