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Where did . . . [message #12340] Sat, 30 December 2017 15:22 Go to next message
Mark L  is currently offline Mark L
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Registered: October 2006
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Where did demons come from.

Never being one to step back and be shy about rendering an opinion when one is called for I am going to put pen to paper and give mine. Of course some may characterize my opinions as shooting my mouth off but that can't be helped.

Before I do here is some background info and some thoughts on the whole subject. I really started wondering about the subject as I put my OT theology notes up. Because the subject was addressed there.

Bro. Freemans opinion according to the notes is . . .

If God had wanted us to know where demons came from he would have told us. The bible just assumes their existence.

Without trying to be critical I think that is ridiculous. There are copious amounts of material about spiritual personalities and the spiritual world in the bible. Why put it all in there if God doesn't want us to know things. Obviously it doesn't directly tell us where they came from but what is wrong with applying some thought and reason to the subject? The whole subject of theology comes from thought and reason. Obviously based on the bible but much is derived facts based on reason.

There are several cautions in the bible on the subject. Here is one.

Col.2/18 . . . and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen vainly puffed up with his fleshly mind.

In other words we are to be careful how we deal with subject and not get obsessed and off on tangents. Or too far into speculation. But we aren't doing that only taking a careful look at the subject.

Various Theories From the theology notes with some added info from me. It should also be noted that Bro. Freeman didn't believe any of these were correct.

a) Demons are fallen angels. This comes out of the book of Enoch in the apocrypha. The problem is in the bible there are demons and fallen angels. Jesus never cast out fallen angels. People really need to be careful here. I read all the time of people mixing these things up. Calling Satan who is one of the cherubim an angel for eg.

b) They are a fallen pre-adamic race of men.
In other words there were people who lived on the earth before Adam was created. The spirits of those people are the demons. The gap theory falls in here as well as some who teach an "old earth". Neanderthal as a separate intelligent species more or less equal to men. And more.
The problem with all that is none of it is in the bible. Not the place to discuss gap theory etc so I will leave it at that.

c) Josephus said demons are the spirits of the wicked dead. I haven't had a chance to read Josephus yet so I'm just going by what HEF said. Point being I don 't know how serious he was in making the statement. For our purposes that is refuted all through the bible.

d) Jewish tradition has it that demons are the offspring of Adam and Lilith (a female demon). That is a ludicrous position at least for anyone with a sound appreciation of scripture.

e) The giants (nephilim) of Gen 6 died in the flood and became demons. I found this on the internet and heard it from family as well. I think as did Hef that this was referring to their inward nature. Rather than physical size. Apparently this has been making the rounds of the charismatic world for some time. I'm not going to address this except to say I disagree.

So where did they come from?

Here's my answer. Let me say right off that it isn't very satisfactory as I don't have all the answers.
This world was made for us. In fact the whole universe. Gods initial plan was for us humans was to procreate and eventually inhabit the entire universe.
I think that they all came out of the spiritual world. Why? Probably as part of the curse. Nothing else fits. There is one scripture that alludes to it.

Rev.12/4 His tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven and did cast them to the earth.

I think this is a clear reference to where they came from. If we take the very conservative position of Gen 1 being the absolute beginning of our universe and world (as we should) then there was no place or position for them prior to the fall. So if they came after the fall as they obviously did then where did they come from? There was nothing in this world for them to come from.

So as I say it isn't a very satisfactory answer. It leaves me with a lot of questions. Which I don't intend to start speculating about. But nothing else fits the facts. They weren't here before us as there was nothing before us. They didn't have their origin here as it isn't their world. Its ours. So they had to have come here from somewhere else. And the only somewhere else is the spiritual world (which I'm going to talk about in another post below)

One question or problem I have with my own thoughts on the matter is why do some demons want to inhabit people. Live inside them. Craving a body. That would almost suggest that one of the false theories stated above is correct. eg the spirits of wicked men from the past. I don't believe that I just don't have an answer.


Re: Where did . . . [message #12341 is a reply to message #12340 ] Sat, 30 December 2017 15:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mark L  is currently offline Mark L
Messages: 587
Registered: October 2006
Location: Canada
Senior Member
The word "heaven" is a generic term. A catch all phrase. It isn't meant to be a clear concise description of a specific place. Heaven or the spiritual realm is filled with realms, dominions, universes, kingdoms, spheres, domains. In my opinion there are too many for a human to easily count. And there are ways to travel between them. All of them filled with personalities we know nothing about. One of Billy Grahams preacher kids thinks heaven is a planet somewhere in our universe. Again without trying to be critical that is a very simple opinion. I don't think people really understand how big God actually is. Ask him to show you.

As I have said before our universe as big as it is really is just a small neighborhood park compared to everything else there is. AND there are spiritual personalities that see it as a small neighborhood park .

"Demons" likewise is a generic term. A catchall term. The bible speaks of many different kinds and those who study these things or are gifted know of lots more. Here are a few spoken of in the bible. I'm not going to explain these just list them and not comment further except to say these are not mythical creatures or someones imagination. It is speaking of spiritual personalities. Demons!


1. The Shedim—demons with rooster feet that Hef talked about in the OT notes
2. The screech owl- night hag- name of a female night demon . Lilith
3. Leviathan the piercing serpent – leviathan that crooked serpent - Isaiah 27/1-2
4. The dragon is not Leviathan Isaiah 27/2
5. The cockatrice – Is.59/5
6. Fiery flying serpents – Is.14/29 They may or may not be the cockatrice
7. Satyrs - OT notes
8. Rahab – name of an mythical (?) sea monster - Is. 51/9 Psalm 89/10
9. Hornet - The word refers to a mythical (?) creature – the smasher Ex.23/28


A couple of other notes.

In this world there are various species of creatures. Cats for eg. The top of the heap would be the lion/tiger right down to the house cat. Varying in abilities strength and intelligence. But all of the same " order". It is exactly the same with all the other personalities in the spiritual realm. There are various "classes and orders" consisting of many types of personality in the same class. Just like Cats.

Seraphim for eg The ones in Isaiah 6 would be the top of the heap. There are others of that class mentioned in the bible and lots in the world. All varying in strength ability and intelligence. In my opinion the Phoenix of Greece and Rome are of Seraphim order. As well as the mythical (?) dragons spoken of around the world.

Or Angels. We have the archangels noted in scripture. Gabriel and Michael. Michael is said to be "one of" the chief princes. Dan. 10/13
Here is another one Rev. 18/1. Apparently not just an ordinary angel. Great power and great glory.
Here is another one. Rev. 10/1 again apparently not just an ordinary angel but someone with more authority and power. Some think this is Jesus. I would disagree.
My point here is there are angels created with more strength ability and intelligence than others. Varying personalities within the same class.

Another issue worth noting is that sin is personal. Not all the angels sinned. Some did and some didn't. It is exactly the same with all the other personalities God made. Some did and some didn't. Some of the cherubim did and some didn't. Some of the class of the Seraphim did and some didn't. Same with all the other classes and orders. For that matter it is same with humanity. Some are saved and some aren't. My point is that some of what we call demons are many different classes and orders of beings and some sinned and some didn't. Some fell into the devils camp because of sin (we call them demons) and some didn't sin and stayed in Gods. We have both active in our world


[Updated on: Sat, 30 December 2017 18:45]

Re: Where did . . . [message #12342 is a reply to message #12341 ] Sat, 30 December 2017 21:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mark L  is currently offline Mark L
Messages: 587
Registered: October 2006
Location: Canada
Senior Member
What about the devil? Where did he come from?

Ezek. 28/11-19
Satan was named Lucifer. Light bearer. Satan is the hebrew name for adversary. When it is used of the devil it has the definite article in front of it. "The" adversary.

He was one of the cherubim and apparently an exalted one as he had privileges no one else had. Ezek. 28/14 walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire ie: he was free to move about in the presence of God.
He must have been highly placed among the cherubim. Maybe even top dog. I think as far as the hierarchy of power and authority in heaven is concerned he was second or third tier. But among the cherubim he was in the top tier. Probably one of several. 28/16 says he was the covering cherub.
Vs 12-13 perfect in beauty. Someone said and (I agree with) that all the creative energy and wisdom of God went into creating him. The most beautiful creature ever.

vs 17 it was because of his great beauty that he sinned. His beauty corrupted his intelligence. He saw what sin was as a possibility and sin being what it is it tempted him and he gave into it. He saw himself sitting in the highest place as God. Possibly replacing God. If he didn't think he had a chance he never would have tried.

Isaiah 14/13-14 - The 5 I wills of Satan
1. I will ascend into heaven
2. I will exalt my throne above the stars of God. Stars being other spiritual personalities
3. I will sit upon the mount of congregation
4. I will ascend above the heights
5. I will be like the most high

But before all this there was a time in Heaven when it was good times and love and glory. Everyone loved the Lord. He was seen as great and glorious but also in a sense as a kindly old man. He was God and everyone worshiped him. All peaceful and enjoyable. Nothing to mar the absolute peacefulness and perfection of heaven.

Then when Satan who was very close to the Lord and in his very presence sinned the wrath of God erupted. No one had ever seen anything like it before. Everyone fled in fear and terror. The cherubim and the great princes archangels and all the myriads of personalities around the throne. All of Heaven saw God in a way they never had before. They found out what the fear of God was. It was such an eruption of wrath they fled in total mindless panic.

As they calmed down (probably over a long period of time) their reason came back to them and they looked at and thought about what they seen and experienced. The Holy Spirit began to draw them back probably starting with the great princes. Drew them back into the presence of God. They now knew what sin was and what the fear of God was. Their perception and understanding of God had changed forever.

I am of the opinion that it was during this time when God was totally alone that the class and order of the Seraphim were created.

Satan like all the rest of heaven had fled in mindless panic totally blasted through with the fear of God. Whereas everyone else in heaven saw it happen he got it directed straight at him. Thinking he was pushing a loving kindly God off his throne he found himself facing an angry righteous holy God and saw he was infinitely beyond anything he had ever conceived him to be. Infinitely greater in power righteousness holiness wrath and wisdom.

Fleeing mindlessly into the furthest reaches of heaven where he was alone eventually his mind and reason returned to him. He then began to examine what had happened to him and toward him. What he had done and how it had changed him.

As he thought things through he started seeing and understanding what sin was and what it does to someone (mystery of iniquity). He must have anguished and cried greatly knowing he couldn't go back. He started looking at what he had done until he understood what evil was and started seeing greater evil. He had no one to tempt him. He tempted himself by coming to realize a greater evil and sin. At first he mightily resisted sin maybe even for long long time wandering through the uninhabited furthest regions of heaven. Crying out in great anguish of spirit not wanting to be what he was.
(forever cut off from God) He wanted to go back but knew he couldn't. But always eventually giving into it.

He kept thinking and looking at sin and what had happened to him and understanding more and more. Trying to resist it not wanting to become more evil yet always giving into it. As he thought it through and understood more he became more and more sinful.
He had no one to teach him he taught himself always eventually giving into it. Until finally after a long time he just gave up and gave himself over to it. Seeking it out and learning it until he came past the point of any desire for good and desired only evil.

He examined thought tempted himself sought it out and came to a complete understanding of what evil and sin were. And he totally gave himself over to it. Oh how God must have grieved over this lost son.

It was at this point that he began to lay plans to tempt to sin all the other people in heaven. Still totally alone. He chose his targets carefully. I think probably at first many fell into the temptation. Maybe even whole kingdoms. Eventually 1/3 of heaven fell into sin. It is important to understand that prior to the devils sin no one knew what sin was. They didn't know what evil was they didn't know what good was either. They were innocent. This issue worked its way through all of heaven and eventually two kingdoms began to develop. The lines between them becoming sharper and sharper until eventually there were two distinct kingdoms. This probably took ages. One kingdom given completely to righteousness and one to evil.


[Updated on: Sat, 30 December 2017 21:02]

Re: Where did . . . [message #12344 is a reply to message #12342 ] Sun, 31 December 2017 20:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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Mark:
Quote:

I think that they all came out of the spiritual world. Why? Probably as part of the curse. Nothing else fits. There is one scripture that alludes to it.


I don't have an answer here but didn't we hear something along the lines that the demons were incomplete without a body? I can't say for sure that brother Freeman made that statement but it seems as if I heard it from him. If true, then it would seem that they (the demons) were at one time in some type of body (whether spiritual or physical, I don't know).

Anymore thoughts?

Blessings,
William

p.s. I know you've posted a whole lot of material so I'm not trying to just pick out one statement to keep you busy from other important stuff, but the whole subject is one where we could use some enlightenment if you've got more thoughts!


I want to believe!
Re: Where did . . . [message #12345 is a reply to message #12344 ] Sun, 31 December 2017 20:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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Mark:
Quote:

One question or problem I have with my own thoughts on the matter is why do some demons want to inhabit people. Live inside them. Craving a body. That would almost suggest that one of the false theories stated above is correct. eg the spirits of wicked men from the past. I don't believe that I just don't have an answer.


I just saw this!!!


I want to believe!
Re: Where did . . . [message #12419 is a reply to message #12340 ] Sun, 21 January 2018 16:40 Go to previous message
Mark L  is currently offline Mark L
Messages: 587
Registered: October 2006
Location: Canada
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Another question I have which again I don't have an answer for is this. Why do some demons have a particular sin appetite or desire or craving for. In other words why is it a demon of anger/hate/lust/rebellion. etc. etc.

They get a hold of (or in) someone and manifest their perverted desires through them. Is it because it is what they themselves are?
Or do they just identify so closely with that particular sin that they become it? Is it that someone in the hierarchy assigns a particular sin to one.

None of those answers really satisfy me.

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