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Enoch [message #11966] Sat, 16 January 2016 06:31 Go to next message
Gary  is currently offline Gary
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Enoch is a very interesting situation found in scripture:

Quote:



21 Enoch lived sixty-five years, and begot Methuselah. 22 After he begot Methuselah, Enoch walked with God three hundred years, and had sons and daughters. 23 So all the days of Enoch were three hundred and sixty-five years. 24 And Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him.




First off I wanted to point out most of the people had children when they were our age or older. Everyone back then must of retained their youthful vigor for hundreds of years. I realize the age factor has changed drastically. Fifty years old back then must of been like grade school level in age. It just seems strange in comparison when people today have children when their seventeen and even younger.

Enoch was unique in the fact he was only on the earth for 365 years and then God just took him. We have very little history on Enoch but it would be interesting to understand "what he did", concerning walking with God, that would cause God to just take him into heaven. While on the earth, we know he was married and had sons and daughters.

I would like to look at the fact that this man was on the earth in the very beginning, when humanity first started out, and gives us an account of what was taking place around him. Evidently men were very wicked right off the bat, giving themselves over to the flesh, because we have the prophecy of Enoch speaking out against the wicked in his day and time.

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14 Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, 15 to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.”




Jude gives us a little incite to the character of the people in his day and time and then quotes Enoch, who tells us about the people of his day and time.

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4 For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.

5 But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; 7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

8 Likewise also these dreamers defile the flesh, reject authority, and speak evil of dignitaries.





They were given to strange flesh, sexual immorality, called dreamers who defile the flesh, reject authority, and speak evil of dignitaries.

Sounds like the evening news report here!

Enoch tells us that the Lord is coming to execute judgement on all, to: convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.”

Fleshly immorality was prevalent in the time of Enoch and just a few hundred years later Noah is raised up to build an Ark, because God is going to destroy all on the earth.

God uses the earth in a great flood that destroys everything, sort of like its washing the earth clean from all the filth. Everywhere men had walked the topology of the land was removed and changed. God was grieved that He had made mankind.

With God all things are possible.

Here's the situation with Enoch now; he has been alive in his body for somewhere in the neighborhood of over 8000 years in "heaven". There is nothing impossible with God. The only other person taken up into heaven was Elijah. These men are the two olive trees and two lamp stands who stand before the God of heaven and earth till this very day.

Taken off the earth and living in these fleshly bodies while awaiting their return to the earth. We cannot over stress the fact that nothing is impossible with our God.

We as Christians have to take the limits off of our God. After all we cannot lose sight in the fact that God is who He says He is. People who walk with God have a resiliency that is not found in people who know not God. God has made a "difference" between those who seek Him and from those who are without God.

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Before someone thinks; we were not worthy and sinners like everyone else. I want to say; we all know this and its not the point here. Its something that happened and were blessed that God made the difference in us. We know we weren't worthy but we find ourselves at the feet of Jesus.

This is all good, but the point is that God has made a difference between us and them. I don't think we have to try to sound overly pious with a poor little me attitude.



If anything we need to dwell on the fact that: whatever things are true, whatever things are noble, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report, if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthy—meditate on these things.

Sure we were delivered out of sin, but now we have something greater to look forward to. The importance of knowing and dwelling on the fact that God is our God. And it is "us" as individuals who places limits on Him, from who He is and what He is capable of doing. We are new creations in Christ. We have been given a newness in life old things have passed away and behold all things are new.

I think its possible that some think in their minds that their on a level with sinful humanity and will never rise any higher then what their circumstances dictate to them. God is for us not against us.

Enoch lived in a day of great wickedness, but there was something different with this man that God would take him right out of the midst of the wickedness. I think we have to come to a point to realize how great "our" God really is. Its not just singing songs about Him and then forgetting who He is as though we had looked into a mirror and then walked away forgetting what we saw.

Words alone cannot express the greatness of God. How could they, He is beyond mere words. We have been made righteous in Christ having no righteousness of our own.

Many times the devil speaks through people trying justify sin, but as Jesus said; Get thee behind me Satan you do not savor the things of God.

Its not a sin to recognize who we are in Christ and what He has provided at Calvary, even though people will always bring up the negative concerning the past. Comparing themselves with the world. What God has cast into the bottom of the sea who are we to constantly be going there and looking at it.

In Enoch and Elijah we see two men who walked with God and now await the fulfilling of the future prophecy:

Quote:


11 Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, “Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there. 2 But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months. 3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.”

4 These are the two olive trees and the two lamp stands standing before the God of the earth. 5 And if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies. And if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this manner. 6 These have power to shut heaven, so that no rain falls in the days of their prophecy; and they have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to strike the earth with all plagues, as often as they desire.




God gives these men unlimited power. They can strike the earth as often as they desire. It sounds like the gentiles are still treading the holy city at this same time. These men finally finish their testimony:

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7 When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them. 8 And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. 9 Then those from the peoples, tribes, tongues, and nations will see their dead bodies three-and-a-half days, and not allow their dead bodies to be put into graves.




Imagine letting their bodies lie out in the hot sun for three days and know one is allowed to bury them. During the times of the church fathers this same practice took place. They would let the bodies of Christians torn by beasts to lay out in the hot sun for days and no one was allowed to bury them.

After the two witnesses are killed, What do we find all the inhabitants of the earth doing?

Quote:


10 And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them, make merry, and send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth.




Their found making merry, having a huge party, and buying each other gifts. Everyone is finally relieved to have it all come to an end.

But after three and a half days:

Quote:



11 Now after the three-and-a-half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them. 12 And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them.




God is in control not man! The breath of life returned to these men and they stood on their feet, a voice is heard saying; "Come up here," they ascended in a cloud, and their enemies saw it take place. As stated, God is in control!

God is in control of our lives and He is here to help us and is for us. Why, because He tells us this all through His Word. We cannot fear what men can do on this earth because we know that everything is in His hands.

The whole account of Enoch and what little we actually know calls out from thousands of years ago and can encourage us in; "Our walk with the Lord God".



Gary











Re: Enoch [message #11967 is a reply to message #11966 ] Sat, 16 January 2016 10:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
william  is currently offline william
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Quote:

Here's the situation with Enoch now; he has been alive in his body for somewhere in the neighborhood of over 8000 years in "heaven". There is nothing impossible with God. The only other person taken up into heaven was Elijah. These men are the two olive trees and two lamp stands who stand before the God of heaven and earth till this very day.

Taken off the earth and living in these fleshly bodies while awaiting their return to the earth. We cannot over stress the fact that nothing is impossible with our God.


I have never considered the contrast between being 'alive in the flesh' and 'alive apart from the flesh' in the context of Enoch and Elijah and the rest who have gone on to their reward. I have heard about the probability of the two witnesses being Enoch and Elijah but the other prominent interpretation is that the two are Moses and Elijah.

I think this latter view mainly comes from the transfiguration account (Mat 17:3, Mark 9:4, and Luke 9:30-33) where it is Moses and Elijah who seem to be the active players, not Enoch and Moses.

I don't know if there is any significance given to the fact that Enoch was a part of a different dispensation, i.e. before the Law, and both Moses and Elijah were both 'under the Law' but it is a very interesting to think about.

Blessings,
William



I want to believe!
Re: Enoch [message #11969 is a reply to message #11967 ] Sat, 16 January 2016 12:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gary  is currently offline Gary
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Registered: August 2008
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william wrote on Sat, 16 January 2016 11:44

Quote:

Here's the situation with Enoch now; he has been alive in his body for somewhere in the neighborhood of over 8000 years in "heaven". There is nothing impossible with God. The only other person taken up into heaven was Elijah. These men are the two olive trees and two lamp stands who stand before the God of heaven and earth till this very day.

Taken off the earth and living in these fleshly bodies while awaiting their return to the earth. We cannot over stress the fact that nothing is impossible with our God.


I have never considered the contrast between being 'alive in the flesh' and 'alive apart from the flesh' in the context of Enoch and Elijah and the rest who have gone on to their reward. I have heard about the probability of the two witnesses being Enoch and Elijah but the other prominent interpretation is that the two are Moses and Elijah.

I think this latter view mainly comes from the transfiguration account (Mat 17:3, Mark 9:4, and Luke 9:30-33) where it is Moses and Elijah who seem to be the active players, not Enoch and Moses.

I don't know if there is any significance given to the fact that Enoch was a part of a different dispensation, i.e. before the Law, and both Moses and Elijah were both 'under the Law' but it is a very interesting to think about.

Blessings,
William





I have heard that view as well that it may be Moses and Elijah, both certainly have experienced miracles, signs, and wonders dealing with nature in judgement towards the wicked.

I think the reasoning that many lean towards Enoch and Elijah is that they never died on the earth. Scripture says:


Quote:


Hebrews 9:27

27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,




It has been appointed for men to die once. I had always heard these two men never died while on the earth so they would be sent back and partake of death. But of course there's the fact that those taken off the earth before the great tribulation will not die but will be changed in a twinkling of an eye.

When you look at the signs and wonders that take place during that time, it sure seems similar to what Moses and Elijah did while on the earth.

Quote:


3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.”

4 These are the two olive trees and the two lamp stands standing before the God of the earth. 5 And if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies. And if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this manner. 6 These have power to shut heaven, so that no rain falls in the days of their prophecy; and they have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to strike the earth with all plagues, as often as they desire.




Either way Enoch and Elijah have been in heaven all this time and one would assume with their earthly bodies, unless they were transformed. Not enough information in scripture but we do know the two witnesses will die and then be raised back up.

If one of the two witness's happens to be Moses, he would be seen dying a second time, while on this earth. Enoch on the other hand, lived in a time of wickedness before the great flood and could also be sent back in the time of great wickedness during the tribulation, before the end of all things.


Gary


Re: Enoch [message #11970 is a reply to message #11969 ] Sun, 17 January 2016 09:44 Go to previous message
Gary  is currently offline Gary
Messages: 870
Registered: August 2008
Location: Indiana
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William Wrote:

Quote:


I don't know if there is any significance given to the fact that Enoch was a part of a different dispensation, i.e. before the Law, and both Moses and Elijah were both 'under the Law' but it is a very interesting to think about.




I was thinking about this situation that Enoch was a part of a different dispensation. I don't know if it plays any part in the matter at all, I agree on what your saying, but I was thinking, Moses started out in the same dispensation as Enoch.

In the beginning most of the signs, wonders, and miracles, that involved Moses in Egypt and the beginning of their wanderings in the Sinai desert was spent in the same dispensation. Moses later in life wrote the Law. I don't know if it really matters or has an affect on who the two witnesses are but its something to note.

Enoch on the other hand is quoted by Jude, six thousand years later. I went back to the prophecy given by Enoch and this prophecy is speaking of the end times. Clear up to our day and time.

He said; "the Lord will return with ten thousands of His saints to execute vengeance on the wicked".

I like the idea of letting scripture speak for itself and not making it say something it is not saying. Just seeing that it will happen at some time in the future is very interesting but from there we have to leave it just for what it says. God could use somebody entirely different for all we know.

Many of the scenarios in the end time that we hear today are nothing more then mere speculation. That's why so many cannot show from scripture where they come up with their conclusions concerning end time events, they try to avoid direct questions because many times the scriptures their quoting are pulled out of context, then they fill in the blanks.

What about these views concerning Moses, Elijah, and Enoch, as being the two witnesses? We know for sure that they will come from heaven as the two olive trees and two lamp stands that stand before God and will preach in the streets of Jerusalem.

From our standpoint we just know that it will be two men. This reminds me somewhat of when people try to guess who the Antichrist is, its another of those cases that its just something that will take place and is in God's hands and His timing.


Gary





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