Home » Discussion Area » Bible Issues » The just shall live by his/His faith/faithfulness...
| The just shall live by his/His faith/faithfulness... [message #7290] |
Mon, 23 August 2010 03:56  |
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 william
Messages: 1462
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Okay, I need some help from you all...
We know that the Hebrew language had no word for "faith" so Hab 2:4
literally says that the just shall live by his "faithfulness". When I
first heard that stated at FA I assumed (perhaps wrongly) that "his
faithfulness" meant "HIS faithfulness", i.e. not the faithfulness of the
person, but the faithfulness of God.
How do you understand it? Almost all translations read "his", but the LXX
reads "My" faithfulness (meaning God's faithfulness).
Paul quotes the phrase in Rom 1:17, and in Gal 3, and Hebrews 10 also has
the quotation.
Not trying to be overly scrupulous here, but to my mind there is a pretty
big difference where the stress is placed.
I know that "our" faith must be in "Him" (and we know that He is
faithful!) but it seems to me that by placing the stress on "our"
faithfulness, could lead to the conclusion that salvation is dependent
upon our works (I know that "faith" and "works" are usually pitted against
each other, but having faith in ones own faith is just as much of a work
as trusting in ones own righteousness, imho).
Any thoughts? (I need help with this one!)
William
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| Re: The just shall live by his/His faith/faithfulness... [message #7291 is a reply to message #7290] |
Mon, 23 August 2010 12:30  |
james
Messages: 2138
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL |
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| moulder wrote on Sun, 22 August 2010 22:56 |
(I know that "faith" and "works" are usually pitted against
each other, but having faith in ones own faith is just as much of a work
as trusting in ones own righteousness, imho).
Any thoughts? (I need help with this one!)
William
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"If any man lack wisdom, let him as it of God..."
Hey brother, I believe you're right in the above thoughts. Obviously there are going to be people who are going to use their 'works' as their trump card, thinking that their works are proof of their salvation and membership in The Kingdom. But what did Jesus say in Matthew about departing from Him because He never knew them(after they had pointed out to Him how they had 'worked' mighty miracles, and cast out devils, ect. ect.)
But then again, Christians *will* live their lives in 'faithfulness' unto God...but we can't without Him, by grace, giving us the empowering of The Holy Spirit to do so...and the mercy shown in forgiveness when we fail to walk obediently. So I believe it's a bit of both...
“But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,”
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| Re: The just shall live by his/His faith/faithfulness... [message #7292 is a reply to message #7291] |
Mon, 23 August 2010 15:40 |
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GWB
Messages: 708
Registered: March 2008
Location: Louisville, Ky area |
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“For as many are led by the Spirit of God, these are the sons of God.” Ro 8:14
“But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.” Gal 5:18
I think the difference between works and righteousness is hearing His voice and doing what He tells you to do. You can say you are saved all you want. But, unless you yield to Him as He wants you to, you will not be a changed person. This is where death to self is so important and is the basis of our attitude in obeying.
You can have head knowledge of the Word and know how to do all of the works of the law (some use teaching); casting out demons for instance. But, unless you do it when and how He tells you to do it, He said He would not acknowledge you. I believe it is the same for everything we think, do, and say.
Knowing His Word (I am the Word), Voice (Holy Spirit), and obeying with a servant’s heart by grace, I believe we are saved. A person cannot walk in this and properly yield without the right attitude. When you stop doing these things, this is when you get into hot water.
The Nature of Faith: “In reference to the nature of faith, its general usage in the NT refers to the whole body of Christian truth.” HEF; Exploring Biblical Theology; page 194.
“In personal application faith is an attitude of the heart (John 3:16). “For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation” (Romans 10:10). Faith is also an act. Peter was acting his faith when he walked on the water to Jesus (Matthew 14:27-331). Faith is also a confession (Matthew 8:7-8; 9:21-22; Mark 9:23-24; 11:23-24; Romans 10:10). Faith in trust in God. “Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him and he shall direct thy paths” (Proverbs 3:5-6; also Job 13:15; Mark 11:22; Hebrews 10:23.” HEF, Exploring Biblical Theology, page 195.
I will use my experience at FA as an example. For me, one of the dynamics of FA was that I was getting so much of the Word at one time, that I did not have the time to learn how to walk in it properly for myself. I knew what I was hearing was right, but because I still needed time to know His voice and to do, for myself, what He told me to do, I relied on watching others and doing what they did in their various walks. Looking back, for me, doing what others did, and not what He wanted me to do, became works. Some things I did was not faith but legalism to my walk, because I chose to walk like others without taking the time to hear His voice for myself and to do what He told ME to do.
Hind sight is 20/20. I find it much harder today, and the times in which we live, to walk by faith. Fellowship is hard to find, true examples of faith are few and far between, and we live in a desert without the Word.
PTL for OO! 
Shalom,
GWB
"Be still and know that I am God."
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| Re: The just shall live by his/His faith/faithfulness... [message #7295 is a reply to message #7293] |
Tue, 24 August 2010 17:09 |
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GWB
Messages: 708
Registered: March 2008
Location: Louisville, Ky area |
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More thoughts on Habakkuk 2:4:
“God informs Habakkuk that evil is by its very nature self-destructive, whereas the righteous shall live by his faithfulness (2:4-20).”
“On the other hand, faithfulness will characterize the life of the righteous man, who will exercise an abiding trust in God in the face of all adversity and trial, such as the calamity now confronting Judah. In this hour of trial, an unwavering trust in God and faithfulness to Him will alone give assurance of preservation to the righteous. (cf Ps 91).” HEF, Nahum Zephaniah Habakkuk Minor Prophets of the Seventh Century, Page 96
Also, in HEF’s Minor Prophets book, on page 94, he references some books on the dead sea scrolls concerning this particular scripture. I googled the one: Amazing Dead Sea Scrolls, Habakkuk 2:4, and came up with the info below.
http://moellerhaus.com/pesher7.htm
I found the following information in one of my books on the dead sea scrolls.
“In the Qumran Commentary on Habakkuk, this verse is interpreted as follows:
Its interpretation, concerning all the doers of the Law in the house of Judah whom God will deliver from the house of judgment for the sake of their toil and their faith in the Teacher of Righteousness.” William Sanford LaSor, The Dead Sea Scrolls and the New Testament, The Pauline Writings and Qumran, Page 169.)
Shalom,
GWB
"Be still and know that I am God."
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| Re: The just shall live by his/His faith/faithfulness... [message #7299 is a reply to message #7298] |
Wed, 25 August 2010 23:56 |
JWBTI
Messages: 253
Registered: March 2007
Location: Ohio |
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James wrote:
"If any man lack wisdom, let him as it of God..."
Amen !
I think Smith Wigglesworth knew the secret of understanding the Scriptures !
Smith Wigglesworth said:
Some people like to read the Bible in the Hebrew.
Some people like to read the Bible in the Greek
But I like to read the Bible in the Holy Ghost !
Jesus Said:
23Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
25These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. John 14:23-26 (KJV)
Ron
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| Re: The just shall live by his/His faith/faithfulness... [message #7301 is a reply to message #7299] |
Thu, 26 August 2010 23:10 |
james
Messages: 2138
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL |
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As always William, you got me to thinking and I believe there's scripture that 'proves' both...the just living by 'our faithfulness' and the just living by 'HIS faithfulness.'
Anyways, I awoke this morning eariler than normal and a song was in my heart from, (i think) the old Baptist Hymnal call "Have Faith In God". Don't know exactly what light it would shed on the discussion...but I'll share the part of the song I could remember.(and it's been going over and over in my mind all day)
"Have faith in God, He's on His throne...
Have faith in God, He watches over His own.
He cannot fail, He must prevail...
Have faith in God, Have faith in God."
HE did ask if when He returned would He find faith...
“But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,”
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| Re: The just shall live by his/His faith/faithfulness... [message #7302 is a reply to message #7301] |
Fri, 27 August 2010 03:31 |
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william
Messages: 1462
Registered: January 2006 |
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On Thu, 26 Aug 2010, James wrote:
>
>
> I believe there's scripture that 'proves' both...the just living by 'our
> faithfulness' and the just living by 'HIS faithfulness.'
>
That is definitely true. God's preservation, our perseverance, both are
presented as necessary ingredients for the ultimate salvation of the
saints. My only question was to the specifics of the passages where the
Habakkuk quote was used.
In the Romans, Galatians and Hebrew passages the context seems to be more
directed toward the faith of the saints. The book of Hebrews places a
special emphasis upon holding fast to the (or our) faith. That element
(the danger of falling away) isn't lacking in the other NT examples, but
the emphasis still seems to be focused upon the concept that our
righteousness/justification is imputed as we embrace the provision of God.
Of course Romans does make the case, rather strongly, that apart from His
faithfulness there wouldn't be any hope for any of us. Paul's argument in
Romans 2:1 highlights the folly of judging others given the fact that we
all, Jews and gentiles, were/are helpless to do anything about our slow
slide toward destruction--apart from His grace. Coupled with Eph 2:8 the
case is clear that we have no basis for boasting in our faith. He is both
the author and finisher of that faith, without question, so when we do
"live by our faith" it is with the clear knowledge that we are in reality
living by His faithfulness.
The believers at Rome were apparently predominately gentiles but this
doesn't prevent Paul from addressing the Jewish element in an attempt to
show that they too were partakers of the sin of Adam. They would not be
excused for judging those who were under the indictment of God for they
too had failed miserably in their attempts to keep the Law.
Blessings,
William
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| Re: The just shall live by his/His faith/faithfulness... [message #7329 is a reply to message #7302] |
Wed, 08 September 2010 15:58 |
james
Messages: 2138
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL |
Senior Member |
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More thoughts on Hab. 2:4 and faithfulness. As I was reading in I Peter chapter one, Peter is addressing Christians scattered about(can we relate?)and he is describing us.
Verse two says we are elected according to the foreknowledge of God. Verse three says that through His (Jesus Christ) abundant mercy we've been begotten unto a lively hope. Verse four says what that hope is, an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and fades not away, and reserved in heaven for us...
Who is this for? I Peter 1:4-5 ...for YOU, Who are kept by the power of God, through FAITH, unto salvation; ready to be revealed in the last time.
I see this to show that we're KEPT by God's power...through OUR faithfulness...This faithfulness(faith) is tested throughout our Christian walk...as shown in verses six and seven.
God's faithfulness is NEVER in question...the question is, are we walking faithful unto HIM? Mediate upon this scripture and let it encourage us,...we are KEPT by the POWER of God, through faith; faith that is more precious than gold.
I pray that The Holy Spirit will continue to reveal His Word unto us as we seek to walk in obedience, with humble and teachable hearts. May our faith be tested, tried, and proven now, so that it might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Verse nine..."Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls."
Amen
“But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,”
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