Home » Discussion Area » Bible Issues » IF SOMEONE WERE TO ASK
| IF SOMEONE WERE TO ASK [message #4287] |
Thu, 04 December 2008 18:23  |
 grandom
Messages: 404
Registered: October 2007 |
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If some one were to ask.
Jesus warned us to take heed and beware of the leaven of the pharisees and Herod Mark 8:13
And the leaven of the sadducees Mat 16:6
If a new believer or anyone would ask that of us could we answer it.
For those who have asked questions before knowing the answer I will disclose I do know the answer.
Since Jesus did warn us I suppose it might be a good idea to find out what they are.
If there is an interest I will post it but knowing the depth of knowledge on this forum, I am probably the last one
To figure out what they are.
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| Re: IF SOMEONE WERE TO ASK [message #4290 is a reply to message #4287] |
Fri, 05 December 2008 21:50  |
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GWB
Messages: 708
Registered: March 2008
Location: Louisville, Ky area |
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| grandom wrote on Thu, 04 December 2008 13:23 |
If some one were to ask.
Jesus warned us to take heed and beware of the leaven of the pharisees and Herod Mark 8:13
And the leaven of the sadducees Mat 16:6
If a new believer or anyone would ask that of us could we answer it.
For those who have asked questions before knowing the answer I will disclose I do know the answer.
Since Jesus did warn us I suppose it might be a good idea to find out what they are.
If there is an interest I will post it but knowing the depth of knowledge on this forum, I am probably the last one
To figure out what they are.
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Grandom, I am certainly behind you in line when it comes to discussing many things in the Word. But, like Lois says, I will give it a go!
Leaven, in Webster's, is defined as a substance used to produce fermentation; something that modifies or lightens; yeast.
Fermentation is defined as chemical decomposition of an organic substance.
When comparing something to yeast, or to be yeasty, can mean unsettled, full of vitality, or frivolous.
Herod was a pagan idolator king. He was one of many who offered the sacrifice of leaven to their gods in direct rebellion towards the scripture, "Ye shall burn no leaven, nor any honey, in any offering of the Lord made by fire."
The Pharisees (P'rushim; "the separated ones") were the largest of the Jewish sects. My info tells me they were mostly of middle class, especially merchants and tradesmen. They were developers of the oral tradition and interpreters of the Law; legalistic, self-righteous, and haughty. Because of their knowledge of law, they were often consulted on property questions. Their false piety gave them power over people who were inexperienced in business. Many intrusted their property to these men for safe keeping, and many lost by it. Their great error was substituting human tradition for divine law; external forms of worship.
The Sadducees (Tz'dukim; "the rightous ones" or "judges") were from aristocracy; high priests who were in charge of temple and its services. They were considered rigid, had great political power, were too cold and austere in their manners to make many converts.
Now, to put all of this together:
The Pharisees were self-made, two-faced business people who ripped off anyone they could. They were ordinary people, who would sue you at the drop of a hat. Some might have been crooked, small town attorneys who would bilk little old ladies in estate proceedings in a New York second. Some were cheap drunks when not at church and had no class because they had never had money before. They served on the church board and "helped" with the church finances. At church, they set the alarm on their wrist watches so they could wake up at exactly 12:00; the roast was cooking at home. Everything they did was influenced by what dad or grandpa had told them to do. After all, it was good enough for them so why question tradition? Their heads were as big as basketballs, full of scripture, and they would have won Jeophardy with all of their Bible trivia. These good 'ole boys had it goin' on and they were quick to let others know when they were not as cool as they were. They nitpicked and nitpicked until the cows came home; they were irritating. They could not see past their noses, let alone see someone in need; no one was going to tell them they were wrong either! How dare they! They were special and everyone else was going to Hell because they did not believe just like they did. They remind me of the end-time sleeping church, it is not for today church.
Then we have the Sadducees, they were just like the tired joke, "they were sad you see." These people were spoiled rotten brats, whose parents were famous religious people in small town, anywhere, and most of them were from old money. They were born with a silver spoon in their mouth and had never worked a day in their lives. They were know-it-alls and were too big for their britches. They hung out at the local country club and ate just so, so. They put their time in at huge charity events and did their part for the poor orphans they would never have to face. They hob-nosed special politicians at these events; lobbying for tax breaks.
They never went to town because the common folk just grossed them out too much. They all wore Calvin Kline and carried Gucci wallets when they climbed into their Jags after church. They put their time into communion and they were really, really good at passing the plate. They had sacrificed a lot, putting up the pretty church building; it was fine and dandy all right. Their heads were also as big as basketballs with scripture, some had gotten their Theological training at, the equivalent of, Yale or Harvard. They were special too; the only ones Heavon bound. They would snub you if you told them this was not the real world. They remind me of the end-time rich church, have need of nothing church, but poor in spirit church.
"You were running the race well; who has stopped you from following the truth? Whatever means of persuasion he used was not from the One who calls you. "It takes only a little hametz (yeast) to leaven the whole batch of dough. I am confident that since you are united with the Lord, you will take no other view; and I am confident that the one who has been disturbing you, whoever he may be, will have to bear his punishment. And as for me, brothers, if I am still preaching that circumcision is necessary, why am I still being persecuted? If that were the case, my preaching about the execution-stake would cause no offense whatever. I wish the people who are bothering you would go the whole way and castrate themsleves! For, brothers, you were called to be free. Only do not let that freedom become an excuse for allowing your old nature to have its way. Instead, serve one another in love. For the whole of the Torah is summed up in this one sentence: "Love your neighbor as yourself;" but if you go on snapping at each other and tearing each other to pieces, watch out, or you will be destroyed by each other! What I am saying is this: run your lives by the Spirit. Then you will not do what your old nature wants. For the old nature wants what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit wants what is contrary to the old nature. These oppose each other, so that you find yourselves unable to carry out your good intentions. But if you are led by the Spirit, then you are not in subjection to the system that results from perverting the Torah into legalism." Galations 5: 7-18 Complete Jewish Bible (I like to read from many translations)
So, there ya' go. That is my take on this subject. I would love to hear someone else give their opinion. If anything else, I had a ball doing a word study!
Blessings, GWB
"Be still and know that I am God"
[Updated on: Sat, 06 December 2008 03:06]
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| Re: IF SOMEONE WERE TO ASK [message #4299 is a reply to message #4294] |
Sun, 07 December 2008 23:42 |
grandom
Messages: 404
Registered: October 2007 |
Senior Member |
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| buckley wrote on Sat, 06 December 2008 00:28 |
Grandom,
Interesting question.
I believe that Jesus was using the term 'leaven' purely figuratively.
As such He is reflecting leaven as corrupt and corrupting which is also found in the OT understanding of yeast.
It was therefore, not directed at the Pharisees and Sadducees themselves, but a criticism of what they taught.
The Pharisees preoccupation with hypocrisy and outward show.
The Sadducees ignorance and skepticism.
The Herodians political guile.
Paul also refers to leaven figuratively by contrasting the leaven of malice and evil with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
So my understanding is that the language was purely figurative.
Grandom...if my answer is wrong...pls don't have me excommunicated.
Lois
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Forgive me Lois for not getting back to you sooner..
Even though I`m retired weekends are especially busy for me.
First of all I`m pleased that at least two sisters were brave enough to tackle the question I posed. In any case as I indicated Jesus warned us to beware of the leaven of the Pharisees,Sadducees ,and of Herod.
Scripture interprets scripture if we are willing to dig it out.Jesus tells us what the leaven of the Pharisees is in Luke 12:1"Beware ye of the
Leaven of the Pharisees which is hypocrisy". I know that sin and is sin and to label one more grevious then another probably is one thing that we humans are particularly guilty of but I believe Jesus hated hypocrisy more then any other sin. I base that on the 23rd chapter of Matt. Jesus devoted one whole chapter on hypocrisy. I don't know of any other sin that He devoted so much scripture to.So we can see that the marks of hypocrisy based on what Jesus showed us in Matt 23 is that Hypocrites know the word. The pharisees were the church leaders of that time but as He said in verse 3 they are quick to tell you what to do but they don't do it themselves. They love to put burdens on people that are hard to bare that they themselves don't or wont bare. When they do works they love to be seen of men. They love there eclesiastical dress. They love to be called Father, Rabbi or whatever and they love to occupy the place of honor.
Another trait of a hypocrite is that they find fault. They nit pick in the least little things. Jesus said v24. You strain at a gnat and swallow a camel.They are generally pretty severe in judgement on others but they are pretty lenient on themselves.I believe MAt 7:5 bares this out.
Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam in thine own eye and then shalt thou see clearly to cast the moat out of thy brothers eye.
So I think we can determine that the leaven of the Pharisee was their doctrine. There doctrine can probably be summed up in three words: They were formalists,tradition worshippers and self righteous.How many churches does that describe today.
So why did Jesus warn us of the leaven? Why didn t He warn us of the sin of the Pharisees.I believe He was warning us of error.He used leaven as was often used in the Bible as sin. A little leaven, Leavens the whole loaf. What does leaven do to a loaf. It puffs it up, fills it full of air. It makes it soft and pliable whereas an un leaven loaf is hard and flat and pretty much what you see is what you get. It cant be easily manipulated. Have you considered that with out exception all most all error comes from the pulpit. Its so easy because most people don't know the word and it must be the truth if a minister says it. So in essence Jesus is warning us against false doctrine and the fact that just a little error (leaven) can put us in peril to leaven the whole lump.
I will at another time tackle the other two warnings.
By the way LOis. Hombre is the only one that has the power to excommunicate
Dick
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| Re: IF SOMEONE WERE TO ASK [message #4312 is a reply to message #4287] |
Wed, 10 December 2008 07:16 |
grandom
Messages: 404
Registered: October 2007 |
Senior Member |
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I started this thread asking the question if someone were to ask about the leaven of the pharisees, sadducess and Herod could we answer them. I have been trying to get to the leaven of the sadducees and Herod but the Holy Spirit has more to say about the Pharisees.
Maybe I should change the thread to confessions of a hypocrite. That's what Jesus said the leaven of the Pharisees is as you may recall.The Holy Spirit has dealt deep with-in my heart on this matter. I have not been able to sleep, as a matter of fact I am writing this at 1am, which is when the Lord usually wakes me up to deal with me. However this anguish has been going on night and day. The leaven of the pharisees creeps in so easily and before we know it we (I) become hypocrites and we don't even realize it. We become critical, nit pick. We find fault.based on our supposed spirituality. Has this not happened on the forum. We find fault when someone posts something we disagree with or we nit pick the way they said thus and so. I know. I have done it. We judge the speck in our brother and sisters eye and ignore the moat in our own eye.Mat 7:2 has given me new understanding of this and to me it is most frightening. "For with what judgement ye judge, ye shall be judged,and with what measure ye meet,it shall be measured to you again". I don't want the Lord to judge me as I have judged others.
Mans judgement is cruel, hard. Jesus judges righteously and with love.
One other area that the Holy Spirit has dealt with me has reference to the Pharisee and the publican in Luke 18. We and I include all you all have been given so much that we are accountable for. We have been given teaching that relatively few people in the world have been given.I don't think that statement can be gainsaid at all. But what have we (I) done with it. We have sat on it all these years and ultimately we have allowed it to become a source of pride. Luke18:11 "The pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers or even as this publican." Cant you just hear the contempt in his voice when he says this "Publican". Have we not been as guilty as the Pharisee. God Thank you that I`m not like the "Catholics" or whatever denomination you wish to insert here. Maybe no one else is guilty here and if I`m the only one great. I repent in sack cloth and ashes. I have to search my heart and ask "Is this why we don't go to church? Do we know it all?" This is not an easy question nor does it adequately answer that dilemma. The more I study and the older I get the more I realize I don't know anything. I wish I knew the answer. Once you`ve tasted the worship of the heavenlies it`s vertually impossible to go back. I do know we have absolutely no basis for pride in the fact that we have been chosen before the foundations of the world to receive this great blessing.
I now know beyond a shadow of a doubt that judgement begins in the house of the Lord. This forum is a house of the Lord where we have been given the opportunity and privilege to participate.I have seen the changes take place amongst us. I have seen the work that the Lord has done in the hearts of those of us that participate and probably also in the readers also. He said His word would not return to him void. It will accomplish what He intended it to do.
Hopefully now the Spirit will give me release to go onto the other leavens. I so appreciate everyone on this forum. I repent of any harm that I have ever done to anyone with my words of judgement and lack of love. Do you realize that there are two tongues of fire. The Holy Spirit came down like tongues of fire in acts and we have tongues of fire.James 3:6 " and the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity.".I cant take back any wrong use of my tongue either here on the forum or in my every day life. They are out there constantly burning.I remember I believe it was Stan Hill who once described the wrong use of the tongue in the wrong way like this. He said cut open a feather pillow in thw wind and when the feathers are scattered try to get them all back. It cant be done. It is my prayer that like Jesus I only speak what the Father gives me.
Blessings to all
Dick
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| Re: IF SOMEONE WERE TO ASK [message #4313 is a reply to message #4312] |
Wed, 10 December 2008 12:43 |
james
Messages: 2142
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL |
Senior Member |
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GUILTY AS CHARGED ON ALL COUNTS...
I too had a restless night and The Lord has been dealing with me about hypocrisy. I even had a dream about it that I won't go into except to say Jesus wants to use us, but until we clean up our houses, we can't expect Him to honor His Word unto us when we aren't honoring Him. And as I John 1:6 says, when we say we're walking in fellowship with Him, yet walking in sin, we're liars, deceiving ourselves,( v8 ) But praise God for the hope we have, found in verse 9 ; He promises if we confess our sins that He'll cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness. Ps.103 'Who forgiveth ALL mine iniquities...'
I also agree with Grandom that God is working in the hearts of people here on the forum, this could be a place where people can find answers to questions about healing, deliverance, salvation; find christian fellowship and love(and it does exist here but there's room for so much more). Judgement does begin in the house of The Lord, I pray we yeild to what The Holy Spirit is doing and that He will perfect that which concerns us. And I'm not saying anyone else is guilty of anything, we must examine our own hearts before The Lord, but overall, can we say that we're drawing people closer to Jesus here or repelling them by our additudes and words? Just asking, myself mostly...
Seeking to obey...I Peter 1:16
james
“But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,”
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| Re: IF SOMEONE WERE TO ASK [message #4318 is a reply to message #4287] |
Thu, 11 December 2008 09:43 |
grandom
Messages: 404
Registered: October 2007 |
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Jesus warned us beware of the leaven of Herod, Mark 8:15 "Take heed, beware of the leaven of the pharisees, and the leaven of Herod".
The leaven of Herod is worldliness. Herod was an interesting character. Mark6:20 tells us that Herod loved to listen to John the baptist. He actually feared John, but yet he was intrigued by John. He knew John was a just and holy man,and yet John didn't pull any punches around Herod.In verse 8 he told Herod it wasn't lawful to have his brothers wife, which really upset Herodias, Herods wife. John`s message,even though it was strong and Herod loved to hear it, had no effect on his life. In v21 Herod held a gala celebration of his birthday and in v22 it says he enjoyed the lustfull dance of Salomi Herodias daughter. Herod made no pretense of being a Christian, but in todays society how many professing Christians love to hear a holy man of god preach a powerful message that actually brings fear to their hearts and then the same week watch a r rated movie that is intended to bring lustful desires and it doesn't bother them in the least bit.Here in Indiana we have the option of getting a plate for our cars inscribed with "In God we Trust" at no extra cost. I have the opportunity on various occasions to drive by one of the many strip clubs in our metropolis, and at any given time roughly 40% of the patrons cars have that particular license plate.
Back to Herod. Fast forward to Luke 23 and the trial of Jesus. Herod was excited to see Jesus because of some of the miracles that Jesus had preformed and in v23 he actually hoped to see Jesus do a miracle. Herod questioned Jesus and I believe Jesus had had enough of Herods exploits and wasn't about to answer him even if it meant loosing his head to Herod as John did. Fast forward again to Acts 12 Herod was on his throne in all his gala Apparel and made a speech to the people and they said this is the voice of god and apparently that was Herods intent because immediately the lord had enough of him and he was eaten up with worms because he didn't give God the glory.
The seriousness of the warning of the leaven of Herod is quite apparent to those who want to endure to the end. We cant play with Gods word or not heed its warnings.We cant dabble with the worlds offerings of pleasure if we profess Jesus is our Lord.One of the things that I have learned about leaven is that just a tiny amount will leaven the whole lump.The word tells us that but it`s like anything else in the word, unless The Holy Spirit reveals it to our own heart in a personal way it`s just words.I don't mean to minimize the word of God in any way. It`s powerful, true and what ever else the word says about it but to the unbelieving and some times I fear to believers we feel we have the option of choosing what to believe and what not to believe as I will explore in the leaven of the sadducess. It is true we have that choice. The word says choose you this day weather you will serve God or man, but we have to realize also that our choices have consequences.The word will not return void, it will accomplish what it was sent out to do.
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God is good. he wants and deserves a bride without spot or wrinkle.
May we be that bride.
Dick
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| Re: IF SOMEONE WERE TO ASK [message #4328 is a reply to message #4287] |
Fri, 12 December 2008 14:30 |
grandom
Messages: 404
Registered: October 2007 |
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The Last of the leavens Jesus warned about, The leaven of the Sadducees.,Mat 16:12.
The Sadducees didn't`t believe in miracles, Mat 22:23 they came to Jesus to say there is no resurrection.Sad to say but this leaven
Is very much prominent today. The modern day Sadducees don't believe in the inspiration of scripture. Most cemeteries, I mean seminaries
Now say that the Bible contains the word of God but it is not the infallible word.So there fore the belief of miracles in the Bible are just stories
Inserted by some monk some where.
They don't believe in the virgin birth thus the incarnation of God and man.Some say He Was a good man but not the eternal Son of God,
Which brings up the next unbelief that in Jesus dwelt all the fullness of the God head bodily, which leads to the error of the doctrine of the trinity.
I think by now you get my point. However the greatest unbelief is that miracles are not for today. Yes the Bible says we are healed but after all don't you think and here comes man`s reasoning why we should not believe it.
I think most people don't realize the greatest miracle still done to this day is the miracle of salvation. We have absolutely no deserving of it nor can we take any credit for it nor can we do anything to earn it and yet The Mercy of God allows the means for us to be saved.
What else should we believe is not for today? The baptism of the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in another tongue.That ended with the apostles you know. God spoke to people in the old testament but we need someone to be our shepherd in this modern day.
Is it any wonder that Jesus asked when He returns will he find any faith. Jesus was always amazed about two things. He was amazed at the disciples lack of faith and conversely He marveled when He saw faith.
In short, to refuse to admit the truth of God's revealed Word, and to live as if we did not think that Word was to be depended on, is the essence of unbelief.
I have been tremendously challenged in this study and have had to do a lot of soul searching to examine the leaven in my own life.
Blessings to all
Dick
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| Re: IF SOMEONE WERE TO ASK [message #4446 is a reply to message #4329] |
Mon, 22 December 2008 11:22 |
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GWB
Messages: 708
Registered: March 2008
Location: Louisville, Ky area |
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: IF SOMEONE WERE TO ASK Mon, 22 December 2008 06:12
GWB
The Pharisees were self-made, two-faced business people who ripped off anyone they could. They were ordinary people, who would sue you at the drop of a hat. Some might have been crooked, small town attorneys who would bilk little old ladies in estate proceedings in a New York second. Some were cheap drunks when not at church and had no class because they had never had money before. They served on the church board and "helped" with the church finances. At church, they set the alarm on their wrist watches so they could wake up at exactly 12:00; the roast was cooking at home. Everything they did was influenced by what dad or grandpa had told them to do. After all, it was good enough for them so why question tradition? Their heads were as big as basketballs, full of scripture, and they would have won Jeophardy with all of their Bible trivia. These good 'ole boys had it goin' on and they were quick to let others know when they were not as cool as they were. They nitpicked and nitpicked until the cows came home; they were irritating. They could not see past their noses, let alone see someone in need; no one was going to tell them they were wrong either! How dare they! They were special and everyone else was going to Hell because they did not believe just like they did. They remind me of the end-time sleeping church, it is not for today church.
After learning something this week, I need to add something to my take on this subject.
I modeled this after a few local business men I know. One in particular used to be connected to FA years ago. He was raised dirt poor and now has a huge business. He just held his Christmas party at Caesars of Indiana.  It is a gambling boat on the Ohio River where people blow millions of dollars.  Now, not only did he pay for an open bar for the illegal aliens who work for him, they could gamble and go to the strip shows too! He flys a Christian flag at his place of business. The illegal aliens talk about it and do not understand.  I thought this was funny (HoHoHo) and sad at the same time. You cannot tell this person one thing and he sees nothing wrong with all of this either! (HoHoHo) It never ceases to amaze me sometimes!
Blessings, GWB
"Be still and know that I am God"
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| Re: IF SOMEONE WERE TO ASK [message #4450 is a reply to message #4446] |
Mon, 22 December 2008 13:57 |
grandom
Messages: 404
Registered: October 2007 |
Senior Member |
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I believe the Holy Spirit has some more to say about The leaven of the Pharisees. Jesus had much to say about the outward actions
Of the pharisees through out Mat 23. All the marks of hypocrisy was the things they did to make a show externally to be seen of men. I believe we can miss entirely what Jesus was saying in this Chapter.He emphasized the external, but the whole synopsis of what He was
Saying is in verse 26. Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that (which is ) within the cup and the platter, that the outside of them may be clean also. We can be very careful especially around other Christians that we don't act or talk like hypocrites but the inside can still be the heart of a hypocrite that needs to be cleansed.
How can we know that we are not deceiving our selves? How can we know that our inner cup is clean? I believe scripture gives us the answer in Mat 12:34 "Oh generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. That brothers and sisters is the lie detector that the word has given us to reveal if were being honest with ourselves. The heart reacts like a tea kettle or pressure cooker if you will. When heat is applied what is in it spews out under pressure.We can delude ourselves all we want but it has to reveal itself when pressure is applied. How do we react and what do we say if we hit our thumb with a hammer. What do we say when someone cuts us off in traffic or drives in front of us in the passing lane at an obvious slow speed and were in a hurry to get some where. You can come up with your own scenarios. How do we speak to our wives or kids. The home probably is the greatest revelation of what condition our heart is in. Would we be afraid to have any brother or sister ask our wives or kids is your Dad a hypocrite. Does he practice what he preaches or is it do as I say not as I do? Mat 12: 35 "A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out do the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things". We can be so cautious about or actions, about our speech, but if it is just that we are practicing the principles of say yoga. We haven't had a change of heart. Jesus had so much to say about the heart.
So many Christians say I want to walk like Jesus walked. Translated that means they want to do the out ward signs that Jesus did, Raise the dead heal, the sick, cast out demons. Nothing wrong with that but again its Wanting to do the outward signs with out having the heart of Jesus. What was Jesus heart like? Mat 11:29 " I am meek and Lowly in heart". The God of all the universe was meek and lowly. Heb 1:9
Says speaking of Jesus " thou hast loved righteousness and hated iniquity". Do we really hate sin? Do we turn away from off color jokes or shows on hellavision that don't edify? I really believe Jesus would. Probably wouldn't even be in situations like that , however He did hang with sinners and if they were anything like todays version and they were because Solomon says there is nothing new under the sun.Brothers and sisters we have to have the heart of Jesus if we want any of the power that He had. I don't believe we should desire His heart just to do signs but to walk as He walked and to Glorify Him in our walk. This is the way walk ye in it.
Ps 51:10 Create in me a new heart O God. Oh God that is my prayer. Cleanse me so that every one will see in me The way that you would have me walk so that I never bring reproach on your Name nor cause anyone to stumble...
Blessings to all
Dick
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| Re: IF SOMEONE WERE TO ASK [message #5267 is a reply to message #4328] |
Fri, 20 February 2009 18:41 |
grandom
Messages: 404
Registered: October 2007 |
Senior Member |
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I have another If some one were to ask?
In this case that someone is me.
Jesus had alot to say about works.
What do you all believe the biblical definition of works is?
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