Home » Discussion Area » Bible Issues » Why are beams so hard to see?
| Why are beams so hard to see? [message #1774] |
Sun, 04 May 2008 02:32  |
 whitearizona
Messages: 8
Registered: April 2008 |
Junior Member |
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Just found this web site. Use to go to FA a loooong time ago. Have a question I'd like to hear your thoughts on. Havent decided yet if I will explain why I'm asking, but if I did, I'd probably have to move to the rants section. Heres the question. Why are beams so hard to see?
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| Re: Why are beams so hard to see? [message #1777 is a reply to message #1774] |
Sun, 04 May 2008 03:13  |
jisamazed
Messages: 170
Registered: January 2008
Location: Grand Rapids, MI |
Senior Member |
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Good question.
I think that beams are hard to see because it is so painful to acknowledge them. Doing so would take you down a few notches. It's really hard work to pull them out. It seems much easier to pull out the speck in another person's eye. That helps you to feel more spiritual than everyone.
Sometimes the people who appear to be the most confident are actually quite insecure.
Amazed smitten astonished stunned floored blown away astounded shocked flabbergasted surprised wonderfully devastated awed shattered overwhelmed incredulous speechless sense of wonder at the love of God.
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| Re: Why are beams so hard to see? [message #1778 is a reply to message #1774] |
Sun, 04 May 2008 04:11 |
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william
Messages: 1463
Registered: January 2006 |
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Administrator |
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Mainly because we all like to think we are right... no one, except maybe a reprobate, really desires to remain in a state of being wrong.
The humble person has an advantage because he attempts to examine himself in the light of the truth.
Now it is possible to be humble and be wrong... perhaps this is due to stubbornness or some other human quality... but those who are humble and who are willing to examine themselves in the light of some expressed truth are likely to change... after all, the cognitive dissonance that is created when faced with truth contrary to a previously held false belief, has more of a chance of being successfully rectified in a truly humble person.
Cognitive dissonance (google the phrase) is a condition that occurs whenever a person is confronted with contradictions to his convictions.
It appears that this is a universal human trait. Cognitive dissonance, when it occurs, will always produce a corresponding attempt at rectification/justification.
Humans will do everything possible to avoid this dissonance including turning a blind eye to those areas that contradict their belief. If avoiding confrontation is impossible, they will make an attempt to justify their beliefs using whatever means available.
We as Christians should be the first to examine our pet beliefs in the light of God Word and not use the methods of the world in an attempt to harmonize our belief system. The non-believer when faced with heart-induced cognitive dissonance, will do whatever possible to bring himself back into a state of harmony, even if it means that he must deceive himself to do so... sadly even the Christian sometimes resorts to this method.
Cognitive dissonance can be alleviated to a degree by finding specks in the eyes of others... this, while not totally removing the dissonance, helps them somewhat, because it makes them feel that they are at least better than the person with the speck. That approach, coupled with ignoring large contradictions (beams) in their own lives, helps them to achieve harmony once again in their own minds.
We have an objective standard with which we can use to bring us back into a place of peace... the Word of God. Humility allows us to rectify our wrong positions without resorting to methods that will ultimately destroy us (pride, willful blindness, etc..).
Cognitive dissonance is what we refer to as our conscience, and when our conscience is confronted by the Word of God, we have a choice in how we respond, and respond we will, either rightly or wrongly. If we respond in a wrong way we only complicate matters which results in more cognitive dissonance!
Blessings,
William
I want to believe!
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| Re: Why are beams so hard to see? [message #1790 is a reply to message #1778] |
Tue, 06 May 2008 01:07 |
whitearizona
Messages: 8
Registered: April 2008 |
Junior Member |
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The reason I ask this question is because it is my opinion, that the reason people dont want to be apart of FA today is because of the judgemental attitude of the leadership today. My opinion only, but if the leadership from the 3 churches in northern indiana woul;d step down, the church would grow. It frustrates me so much to read the FA blog and read how spiritual they are and nobody else wants to follow the Lord. I know about 200 people in northern indiana, (which happens to be the number that FA says that dont want to follow God) that there only desire is to follow God and seek first the kingdom. But they are so sick and tired of being abused by leadership, the arogence, the pride, and the judgementalism. I would think that if they would examine the fruit in their church,you'd think they would start examining themselves. But it is to easy to just say that the people just dont want to hear the word any more. I want to scream it from the top of the roof tops that it is not the word, but the preachers. Stop it right not you preachers who are so judgemental. You scatter the sheep and dont take any thought about it. I said it was my opinion only, but its not. Its the feeling of those 200 people that live in northern indiana. Its frustrating to them because its hard to find a good church to go to. But they would rather listen to someones tape, go to a church that isnt quit right, then to sit under these men who claim to hear from God. I think its funny how God never shows them there faults and sins to the churches they claim they serve. If you really want to see God begin to move again within the FA small churches, then the leadership has to get out of the way. But we know that that would never happen. They are to busy finding specks in all the other people. Jerm 3 promises pastor with Godly hearts. The people I know are examinig there hearts and humbling themselves before God. Northern indiana needs pastors after Gods heart, not pastors who scatter the sheep. Gods people no longer tolerate from these 3 men their pride and judgementalism. I hope I was gracious, but I'm sorry if I wasnt. I too am tired of of the pride and arogence, and also the sin that these men continue to live in. Some one needs to expose it. Sorry to rant and rave.
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| Re: Why are beams so hard to see? [message #1809 is a reply to message #1790] |
Wed, 07 May 2008 14:42 |
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william
Messages: 1463
Registered: January 2006 |
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Administrator |
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I hear your frustration, but consider this...
You've got to give credit to those who seemingly have stuck it out these many years... just look at the long list of those who didn't. I think there were at least fifty or so word ministers back in the day. I am of course making an assumption that most are not preaching now.
Steve Hill, Bill Garner, Malcolm, Joe, Jeff, and I'm sure a few others... but for the most part it seems as if the great majority are not actively involved in ministry anymore.
We all can perhaps find fault with the direction they have gone, but let's at least give them a couple of those gold stars --that Hombre eschews-- for persistence.
I do think that we should rightly discern those who might be involved in deception... but if we do, it should be the type of deception that stems not from our own subjective idea of where they are wrong, but something that is clearly a departure from the Word of God.
For perspective, just compare yourself with each of the other posters here... I think that you would not find even two of us that would have the type of agreement expressed by this passage:
1Co 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
Yet each of us "think" we are absolutely right!! There has to be some deception going on somewhere!
Like the humorous title of a popular book on cognitive dissonance implies: Mistakes Were Made (But Not by ME)
That said, I do think that some of the new charismania contains a fundamental deception which is based upon a general lack of understanding concerning the affect of the Holy Spirit upon Christians.
Judge this: The Holy Spirit NEVER overrides the Christian's volition.
Compare the phenomena of demonic activity, where a person's will is overridden regularly, as the person becomes more and more yielded to supernatural influences.
Maybe we could start a new thread on that issue?
Blessings,
William
I want to believe!
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| Re: Why are beams so hard to see? [message #1820 is a reply to message #1778] |
Thu, 08 May 2008 02:30 |
jisamazed
Messages: 170
Registered: January 2008
Location: Grand Rapids, MI |
Senior Member |
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That was an excellent post, Moulder. I agree 100% with your first response to Whitearizona's question (such a rare occurance requires an acknowledgement!).  I encounter a lot of cognitive dissonance in people, including myself. It is actually an important part of growing and learning. When confronted with evidence that challenges our belief, we can either deny the evidence, put it on hold and search it out some more, or acknowledge the truth of it. Self honesty is crucial in helping cognitive dissonance to work for our good rather than our bad. I had to get honest when confronted with HEF's problems, as well as my own, and change some of my dearly-held ideas that I had in the "faith camp".
For those who have been listening to his tapes every week for 25 years, the process is very painful, and it takes a while.
[Updated on: Thu, 08 May 2008 02:31]
Amazed smitten astonished stunned floored blown away astounded shocked flabbergasted surprised wonderfully devastated awed shattered overwhelmed incredulous speechless sense of wonder at the love of God.
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| Re: Why are beams so hard to see? [message #1821 is a reply to message #1790] |
Thu, 08 May 2008 03:10 |
jisamazed
Messages: 170
Registered: January 2008
Location: Grand Rapids, MI |
Senior Member |
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Whitearizona said, "The reason I ask this question is because it is my opinion, that the reason people dont want to be apart of FA today is because of the judgemental attitude of the leadership today. My opinion only, but if the leadership from the 3 churches in northern indiana woul;d step down, the church would grow. It frustrates me so much to read the FA blog and read how spiritual they are and nobody else wants to follow the Lord. I know about 200 people in northern indiana, (which happens to be the number that FA says that dont want to follow God) that there only desire is to follow God and seek first the kingdom. But they are so sick and tired of being abused by leadership, the arogence, the pride, and the judgementalism. I would think that if they would examine the fruit in their church,you'd think they would start examining themselves. But it is to easy to just say that the people just dont want to hear the word any more. I want to scream it from the top of the roof tops that it is not the word, but the preachers. Stop it right not you preachers who are so judgemental. You scatter the sheep and dont take any thought about it. I said it was my opinion only, but its not. Its the feeling of those 200 people that live in northern indiana. Its frustrating to them because its hard to find a good church to go to. But they would rather listen to someones tape, go to a church that isnt quit right, then to sit under these men who claim to hear from God. I think its funny how God never shows them there faults and sins to the churches they claim they serve. If you really want to see God begin to move again within the FA small churches, then the leadership has to get out of the way. But we know that that would never happen. They are to busy finding specks in all the other people. Jerm 3 promises pastor with Godly hearts. The people I know are examinig there hearts and humbling themselves before God. Northern indiana needs pastors after Gods heart, not pastors who scatter the sheep. Gods people no longer tolerate from these 3 men their pride and judgementalism. I hope I was gracious, but I'm sorry if I wasnt. I too am tired of of the pride and arogence, and also the sin that these men continue to live in. Some one needs to expose it. Sorry to rant and rave."
WhiteA, you expressed it better than I have. You seem to be familiar with the current FA groups, which is helpful. I tend to be more focused on the reasons why FA became that way, so I bring it back to HEF because I believe that he had that attitude and fostered it among his followers. However, when I mention him it makes people mad and they rush to defend him (or attack me) and they miss the truth of it. Maybe I'm too specific. By not mentioning any one person you leave it open for people to draw their own conclusions. I like that approach.
Even when we have to be brutally honest with ourselves about the problems and excesses, the goal is to bring healing and freedom by the truth. Pulling out the plank from our own eyes, whether individually or collectively, hurts at first, but it can help the body to heal once the plank is gone.
Pray for those who do the beam thing. Be a good example to them by not doing it yourself, and forgive them, even though they make you mad sometimes. As the bride of Christ, we belong to Him, and He is much more patient with us than we are with each other.
Pastors must not wound sheep, I agree. Part of the problem is that many of us were given a skewed view of what it means to pastor. The function of pastor was primarily seen as teaching and making decisions. However, I see that as only part of the pastor's job. Pastors have to build relationships with people in the church. They cannot teach from a distance. Jesus taught that the good shepherd (in this case, Him) knows his sheep. Jesus is our greatest example of a pastor. A pastor will wash people's feet. Even his teaching needs to come out of relationships with them so that he can know their needs. A pastor who is distant and inaccessible to the people of the church will not be effective.
HEF correctly pointed out that, most of the time, pastor (poimane), elder (presbuteros) and bishop (episkopos) were used interchangeably in the NT. Since there was a plurality of elders in at least some of the churches, it would follow that there can be more than one pastor. A larger church would need more pastors in order to adequately care for the flock. There still needs to be someone who is the teaching pastor, the point man, who leads the church, but pastoring is not limited to one person in the church. It might be helpful if the pastors you mentioned have fellowship with some other pastors in the area and pray with them and are accountable to them.
Amazed smitten astonished stunned floored blown away astounded shocked flabbergasted surprised wonderfully devastated awed shattered overwhelmed incredulous speechless sense of wonder at the love of God.
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| Re: Why are beams so hard to see? [message #1835 is a reply to message #1821] |
Thu, 08 May 2008 18:44 |
Mark L
Messages: 855
Registered: October 2006
Location: Canada |
Senior Member |
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I agree with a lot of what you said there. I never sat as part of FA but have wondered for a long time if HEF should have left the pastoring to someone else and just taught maybe with oversight responsibilites. To be a pastor you really have to be in the midst of your people. I strongly disagree with the idea of large churches as well. A church should be no larger than a pastor can personally see to the spiritual wellbeing of his people. If I had to fault HEF for anything it would be that he didn't seem to recognize the idol worship he was getting. Maybe if he had been walking around in the midst of the church he would have seen it.
You can read
"Meanderings on Scripture by Mark
https://mlederman.substack.com/
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| Re: Why are beams so hard to see? [message #1848 is a reply to message #1835] |
Sat, 10 May 2008 00:51 |
whitearizona
Messages: 8
Registered: April 2008 |
Junior Member |
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First off, let me say I am not talking about Malcom. I know nothing of him and his church. Secondly, I'm sorry if my attitude was wrong, it just frustrates me to read a blog and see the blame put on those who no longer go to FA, belittle those precious saints, who wish they could be a part of something similar to what we all came out of. There were problems, but alot of good came from FA. I still believe most of what FA taught me and my only desire is to walk in humble obiedience to the Lord. Unfortunity, I'm not as faithful to the Lord as He is to his people. If it can be made public (in blog) that the people who once were a apart a FA no longer have a heart to follow the Lord (because they dont go to FA, and supposedly was shown to this pastor by the Lord) I felt it was time to give the real reason why these 200 people dont want to belong to FA. Yes I'm somewhat frustrated. And I need to deal with that. That is not Christ like love. My only reason was to defend these 200 people (who really dont need to be defended) and make it know where their heart is. Its to follow the Lord totally. They would like to be a part of an FA church (really not saying this right). They want to be a part of a church that glorifies God. And their beliefs and conservativeness is still being held on to. Not like what is being protrayed in a blog. And its not the FA teaching me and those are following, but what is found in the word. The beauty of holiness. Isnt that what were all really after. The Levites inhritence wasnt like the other tribes. There inheritence was the Lord Himself. Wow. Thats what I want. May we all press on to know the Lord. Sorry I got in the fleash, this subject probably should have never of been brought up. Lord bless
[Updated on: Sat, 10 May 2008 01:04]
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| Re: Why are beams so hard to see? [message #1946 is a reply to message #1848] |
Wed, 28 May 2008 17:04 |
capturedbygrace
Messages: 41
Registered: April 2008
Location: Indianapolis, IN |
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I keep seeing people in Indiana, northern IN especially who are wounded and still lying on the battlefield. They are by no means all in big error or deception. That doesn't mean there is no deception, just certainly not enough to divide over. I would like to know of any Christian (even one) who has attained to the place of no deception--I know I'm not it.
If I believe that is the case, and if I believe the Lord is the One to build His church, why am I trying to defend it? Better yet, the question for me is, how do I defend it without becoming a "vigilante in the flesh?" I live the truths-I become a demonstration of God's Word through obedience to His voice. If I obey the letter of the Word without the Spirit's direction, I easily become legalistic--and my defense of God and His Word becomes more of a "crusade empowered by zeal" than a walk of love.
What will not quench the smoking flax and break the bruised reed? It will be my life of being well-loved by God (not love through religion or love through feelings) that I then pass on, for I can only give what I have received. If I am not a crusader, others can freely explore and live what being a Christ-follower in this world means without my voice taking the place of the Holy Spirit in their hearts. I am sister, not Father. To perfect them is His work, not mine. For many a hurt person, it is essential to have a climate of respect, love, truth and prayer to be made whole. Until and unless we can come to this as Christians, I think we won't be seeing much that we long to see and that God longs to give us. We will be too afraid we are going to be hurt again, or we will be too afraid that our "pure doctrine" will be tainted by "those others."
Until both our fear of being hurt again, and our concern over doctrine is yielded to and filtered by the Holy Spirit, we will be distorted, and leaders and people won't have the power to model servanthood as Jesus Christ did--and it is servanthood leadership with His love that will truly bring Holy Spirit anointing and authority to deal with what He says is wrong.
Broken vessel in training: Pressing on to experience the fullness of Acts 17:28: For in Him we live, and move, and have our being...
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| Re: Why are beams so hard to see? [message #1955 is a reply to message #1821] |
Thu, 29 May 2008 11:32 |
DeWayne
Messages: 82
Registered: August 2006 |
Member |
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[quote title=jisamazed wrote on Wed, 07 May 2008
WhiteA, you expressed it better than I have. You seem to be familiar with the current FA groups, which is helpful. I tend to be more focused on the reasons FA became that way, so I bring it back to HEF because I believe that he had that attitude and fostered it among his followers. However, when I mention him it makes people mad and they rush to defend him (or attack me) and they miss the truth of it. Maybe I'm too specific. By not mentioning any one person you leave it open for people to draw their own conclusions. I like that approach.[/quote]
Are you implying that Dr. Freeman was judgmental? If so you have really went off the deep end. Faith Assembly got its name for a good reason, faith teaching based on God's promises. Dr. Freeman spent his time in the Word and prayer rather than mingling with people. I didn't agree with some of his comments but I agree with everything he taught about God's Word. It is truly pathetic that people who sat in FA for years would criticize the Pastor for being faithful to his calling rather than pleasing the congregation. It is absolutely amazing that some sat in FA for years and now criticize the Pastor for being faithful to God. How sad! For over 30 years I have listened to different 'teachers', and with FEW exceptions Dr. Freeman's wisdom of God's Word stands above all. To criticize him after being there for years only makes one wonder in amazement.
DeWayne
[Updated on: Thu, 29 May 2008 11:33]
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