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| The Temple Mount [message #9799] |
Tue, 24 September 2013 16:04  |
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 william
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http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Middle-East/2013/0923/Why-it- matters-that-Jews-are-standing-on-the-Temple-Mount
I just read this article from the Christian Science Monitor (I know, I know...) that highlights the oft-repeated end-time phrase "...this generation will not pass away, till all be fulfilled." Luk 21:32
This verse has been used to assert that the generation that saw Jerusalem re-taken by Israel in 1967 would not pass away before seeing the return of Jesus.
[Luk 21:24, 32 KJV] 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
... 32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
Well, it looks like Jerusalem is still being "trodden down" by the Gentiles and the "Six-Day War" might not actually be a fulfillment of the words of Jesus in Luke 21:24.
Tons of articles have been written on just what constitutes a generation, 20 years? 40? 80?
Even if the end of the "times of the Gentiles" could be dated from 1967 (which in my opinion is dubious) isn't it possible that it could be referring to the last living survivor of that generation?
This might not be as far off as it might first appear because we have an OT example that follows the same pattern of a predicted judgement taking place upon the death of the last surviving member of a generation -- Methuselah.
[Gen 5:27 KJV] 27 And all the days of Methuselah were nine hundred sixty and nine years: and he died.
According to some his name was predictive of the flood. "Methuselah" (meaning "Man of the dart/spear", or alternatively "his death shall bring judgment") it has been determined, died on the very day that the flood began.
Anyway, back to the notion that 1967 marked the end of "times of the Gentiles..." I'm not sure that Jerusalem isn't still being trodden down by the Gentiles. I mean the reality is that while Israel is technically in control of Jerusalem they are far from actually controlling the city.
Thoughts?
Blessings,
William
I want to believe!
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| Re: The Temple Mount [message #9800 is a reply to message #9799] |
Tue, 24 September 2013 19:07  |
james
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| william wrote on Tue, 24 September 2013 11:04 |
"...this generation will not pass away, till all be fulfilled." Luk 21:32
This verse has been used to assert that the generation that saw Jerusalem re-taken by Israel in 1967 would not pass away before seeing the return of Jesus.
[Luk 21:24, 32 KJV] 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
... 32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
Well, it looks like Jerusalem is still being "trodden down" by the Gentiles and the "Six-Day War" might not actually be a fulfillment of the words of Jesus in Luke 21:24.
Tons of articles have been written on just what constitutes a generation, 20 years? 40? 80?
Anyway, back to the notion that 1967 marked the end of "times of the Gentiles..." I'm not sure that Jerusalem isn't still being trodden down by the Gentiles. I mean the reality is that while Israel is technically in control of Jerusalem they are far from actually controlling the city.
Thoughts?
Blessings,
William
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I've certainly 'adjusted' my timetable for The Lord's return. 30 years ago I had absolutely no doubt in my mind that Jesus was returning 'in my lifetime', as also I believe Brother Freeman thought until the day he passed. Now? I live with hope and expectancy because as Paul said, either way we will spend eternity with Him.
As to who controls Jerusalem and the temple mount now and when Israel will gain control, and when the 'times of the gentiles will be fulfilled'...that is yet to play out. But it's going to happen, it's just a question of whether or not we'll be here to see it or not. I look forward to The New Jerusalem, I look forward to God's will being done on earth as it is in heaven.
“But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,”
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| Re: The Temple Mount [message #9811 is a reply to message #9809] |
Wed, 25 September 2013 06:30 |
Marilyn Crow
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Interesting William.
Just a thought about `Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.` (Luke 21: 24)
In Revelation 11: 2 it says,
`And leave out the court which is outside the temple, & do not measure it, for it has been given to the Nations (Gentiles); & they will tread underfoot the holy city for 42 months.`
Marilyn C
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| Re: The Temple Mount [message #9816 is a reply to message #9815] |
Wed, 25 September 2013 09:12 |
Marilyn Crow
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Gary, Not sure what you mean by that?
`This will mean the gentiles will be still there until part of the tribulation. This is very interesting as I think most think they will leave before the tribulation.`
Do you think that `Gentiles,` means `Gentile` as in Christians? whereas it means `Gentiles` - Nations of the world.
[Updated on: Wed, 25 September 2013 09:54]
Marilyn C
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| Re: The Temple Mount [message #9821 is a reply to message #9817] |
Thu, 26 September 2013 00:20 |
Marilyn Crow
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Hi GWB,
Thought I`d write a few notes on your comments,
re: `I have never seen scripture for a general rapture of the body of Christ before the tribulation.`
You probably know these but may not have put them together.
1 Thess. 4: 13 - 18.
- caught up together with all the believers, past & present, before ` Thess. 5: 1 - 11.
- the Day of the Lord, the wrath of God poured out,
`you are not in darkness that the Day should overtake you like a thief;.....for God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.`
And 1 Thess. 1: 10
`and to wait for His Son....who delivers us from the wrath to come.`
And Rev. 3: 10
`Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell upon the earth.`
Many people say that that is just `escapism.` But when the Body of Christ comes to maturity (Eph. 4: 13) then it is ready for its eternal setting & purpose.
As the Apostles Peter & Paul encourage us through the Holy Spirit -
- our hope is in heaven, (Col. 1: 5)
- our inheritance is in heaven, (1 peter 1: 4)
- our citizenship is in heaven. (Phil. 3: 4)
We are a most blessed people if we continue to `hold fast to the Head,` our Lord Jesus Christ.
Blessings.
[Updated on: Thu, 26 September 2013 00:20]
Marilyn C
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| Re: The Temple Mount [message #9823 is a reply to message #9822] |
Thu, 26 September 2013 06:24 |
Marilyn Crow
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Also wanted to ask you GWB, is that Gillylynne? Have just listened to some of the music section & think that it may be Gillyann?
And have you finished the transcripts of your note taking under Hobart Freeman? I noticed in one of your past comments that you said you were busy doing that. I appreciate what you have done on this site & am working through a lot of the other information. Very good.
[Updated on: Thu, 26 September 2013 09:58]
Marilyn C
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| Re: The Temple Mount [message #9827 is a reply to message #9819] |
Thu, 26 September 2013 13:28 |
james
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Hey Gary,
I remember Hombre/Whitney sending the teachings to me by email and being able to listen to them (the whole series, I think...it was about 4-5 years ago)somehow on my computer(don't remember how, I know I saved them....BUT, my computer died a couple years ago and everything was lost)Maybe we discussed it on the 'other forum' during my brief time there.<smile>
I don't recall having a discussion on OO about it, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen.  Ah-Ha! I did mention the teaching in a post to Sage/Sue message #5659 Sat. April 11, 2009.(it's located on the 1st page of the Bulletin Board) I did reference some of the scriptures HEF used, this was from the introduction to the series on "The Day of The Lord".
Sorry I couldn't be more helpful, but there's a good chance that someone on here(William, Sue, Gillyann, Ron) has those original tapes with notes....just regretably, not me.
“But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,”
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| Re: The Temple Mount [message #9853 is a reply to message #9799] |
Mon, 30 September 2013 01:03 |
Marilyn Crow
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William, Some thoughts on your topic.
Quote
"...this generation will not pass away, till all be fulfilled." Luk 21:32
`This verse has been used to assert that the generation that saw Jerusalem re-taken by Israel in 1967 would not pass away before seeing the return of Jesus.` Unquote
I wondered why people thought the date of that generation had to start with 1967 & reading your notes again I see why. They connected `67 with Jerusalem retaken. However if we read the scripture in context we see that the Lord is saying -
`Behold the fig tree & all the trees; as soon as they put forth leaves ...... Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all things take place.` (Luke 21: 29 - 32)
We know from God`s word that the `fig tree` is Israel & the other `trees,` are obviously the other nations. We know from history that Israel became a nation in 1948 & many other nations around the world gained their independence.
Thus `this generation,` will not pass away. By about 80 years people are passing away. And these now are my thoughts, opinion, that by the year 2028 there would not be many of that generation left in Israel as they would be 80. Now we take off 7 years for the tribulation & there we have 2020 - 21 as a probable time for the Body of Christ to be matured & go to its eternal setting.
As I said the last part is my opinion & as there is still much to happen we will keeping looking to the Lord for His perseverance.
Marilyn C
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| Re: The Temple Mount [message #9855 is a reply to message #9854] |
Mon, 30 September 2013 08:43 |
Marilyn Crow
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I had a look at those notes awhile ago & thought they were very good. Thank you Gillyann. Will you put them under a separate title so they wont get lost in the comments?
Marilyn C
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| Re: The Temple Mount [message #9858 is a reply to message #9853] |
Mon, 30 September 2013 13:05 |
james
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| Quote: |
Marilyn Crow wrote on Sun, 29 September 2013 20:03 Thus `this generation,` will not pass away. By about 80 years people are passing away. And these now are my thoughts, opinion, that by the year 2028 there would not be many of that generation left in Israel as they would be 80. Now we take off 7 years for the tribulation & there we have 2020 - 21 as a probable time for the Body of Christ to be matured & go to its eternal setting.
As I said the last part is my opinion & as there is still much to happen we will keeping looking to the Lord for His perseverance.
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Thanks for stating that is only your opinion concerning the 'time-line' of 2020-21. There is much left to happen, of course it could happen very quicky or take years. There's a saying about opinions, "everybody's got one"...and I usually do, but on this subject of when The Lord will return, I don't. I do look for His coming every day. Anyone remember the Carl Sietz song about this subject? "Like a man in January sets his heart to spring..."
“But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,”
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| Re: The Temple Mount [message #9859 is a reply to message #9858] |
Mon, 30 September 2013 22:26 |
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GWB
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Location: Louisville, Ky area |
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@Marilyn, Yes, the notes will be under NT Theology. I will have to listen to the tapes myself and take my own notes. The series of Revelation was taught in a house, I believe. That is why sister Linda did not have them, I think.
@Gary, The Revelation outline was provided and written by HEF. He handed these out at some point. They are not my notes.
I have all of the tapes and the radio series. I had to store them again due to remodeling the house. ASAP or when I have access to my things again, I will get going on it. Huge project.......
[Updated on: Tue, 01 October 2013 02:11]
Shalom,
GWB
"Be still and know that I am God."
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| Re: The Temple Mount [message #9860 is a reply to message #9858] |
Mon, 30 September 2013 23:40 |
Marilyn Crow
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james
A very good point there james & one that should be ours everday in the aspect that we look for Him everyday as we personally do not know if we should die today. My dear father for many years before he passed away would say, `Are you coming today Lord?` And one day dad was taken, `Promoted to glory,` as the old timers would say.
Now concerning your thoughts, `it could happen very quick or take years,` & my thoughts ` a probable time (7 - 8 years) for the Body of Christ to be matured & go to its eternal setting.`
My thoughts were not just based on Israel as a nation being 80. but on specific indicators in God`s word. Thank you for the opportunity to discuss & for me to enlarge on my reasonings.
1. The maturing of the Body of Christ. (Eph. 4: 13)
`until we all attain to the unity of the Faith & of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man ....`
2. The Holy Spirit guiding us in this maturing (individually & corporately as the Body). (John 16: 13 & 14)
`But when He the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all the truth;....He shall take of Mine, & shall disclose it to you.`
(We have received the truth of - Christ as Saviour, healer, baptiser in the Holy Spirit, giftings of the Holy Spirit & ministries of the ascended Lord ...but the Holy Spirit has yet to reveal across the Body the fullness of Christ`s eternal purposes.)
3. Thus when the Body of Christ reaches maturity it will go to its eternal setting on Christ`s throne as KingPriests. (Rev. 1: 6 & 3: 21)This is the beginning of the restoration of all authority under Christ in each realm. (Acts 3: 20 & 21 & 1 Cor. 15: 23 - 26)
So now you can see a bit more of my thinking & that I am not just plucking dates out of the air but desiring to be diligent to watch as the Lord said,..
`But you brethren, are not in darkness, that the day should overtake you like a thief; for you are sons of light.....for God has not destined us for wrath.....` (1 Thess. 5: 4 - 9)
`Therefore encourage one another, & build up one another, just as you are doing.` ( 1 Thess. 5: 11)
I hope this has been an encouragement to you james that I am not just plucking dates but looking to what our blessed Lord by His Holy Spirit is doing in the Body of Christ.
Marilyn C
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| Re: The Temple Mount [message #9864 is a reply to message #9860] |
Tue, 01 October 2013 12:28 |
james
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Location: Birmingham, AL |
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Hi Marilyn,
I didn't think you were plucking dates<smile> nor being flipant with The Word of God. But each one of us on this forum were reading these same scriptures you use and some more 30 years ago. Not to imply some 'deep' understanding of end-time events(eschatology) and certainly to remain teachable to any revealation that has been overlooked or missed, still there is only a limited understanding of what John 'saw' and how he described his visions. Christians have been believing 'for the unity and maturing of the Body of Christ' and His return for quite some time and many, many of them have gone on to be with The Lord having not seen the fulfilling of that which they longed for.
I'm not admonishing you or arguing, at all, just saying give God room to be God (if you know what I mean) He is sovereign and does all things after the council of His own will...The return of The Lord will be timed perfectly and in the meantime we can and should live expectantly and with hope, sharing this hope with all men.
It is a captivating subject, even the 'world' loves movies and books about the end...study to show ourselves approved unto God? Yes. But be humble and teachable so we don't stumble if what we 'think' we know doesn't happen as we antiscipate. Reminding myself here, due to past experiences.
“But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,”
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| Re: The Temple Mount [message #9870 is a reply to message #9866] |
Tue, 01 October 2013 22:45 |
james
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Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL |
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| Gary wrote on Tue, 01 October 2013 15:13 |
James,
How did you cut into my post? That is definitely post violation fraud, if I ever seen it. 
Gary
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I figured since 'Big Brother' is partially shut down they wouldn't spend the resources coming after a little ole post violator like me...  But if you want to press charges maybe some vigilante bounty hunter will take the contract, if you offer enough cash...<SMILE>
“But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,”
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| Re: The Temple Mount [message #9872 is a reply to message #9861] |
Tue, 01 October 2013 23:48 |
Marilyn Crow
Messages: 598
Registered: September 2013
Location: Australia |
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Hi Gary, Thank you for the help with the `boxes.` I wondered how you all did that. Was going to ask & there you saw my need.
I did like that joke between you & james. Good to hear humour sprinkled amongst the discussion. I remember on Andrew Strom`s site when things got really heated someone posted,
`it`s like trying to have a house group in the Colosseum with the gladiators fighting.`
Now I don`t want to be a gladiator as I appreciate you all don`t either. So in reply to your comments Gary let`s look at this teaching that we have all been taught -
`the Lord coming as a thief in the night.`
Well the Lord said it, & I believe He will come as a thief in the night. The Lord also said `get behind me Satan.` & I believe He meant it but it wasn`t said to me or for me. It was said to Peter as we all know. Thus said let`s look at who the Lord spoke those words of `coming as a thief,` & why He said it.
Matt. 24: 42 - 44 & 25: 13 Here the Lord is talking to the people of Israel saying that He would come to them as a `thief in the night.` & thus they would not know `the day or hour.`
Now in Romans the Holy Spirit tells Paul that Israel was in darkness. `let their eyes be darkened.` etc. (Rom. 11: 8 - 10)
So if they are in darkness of course they are not going to know when the Lord comes for them.
Now Rev. 3: 3. Here the Lord we see is talking to some in the Body of Christ. (Sardis) He calls them `dead,` & tells them to `wake up....for if they don`t & continue in darkness then He will `come like a thief,` to them & they will not know at what hour He will come upon them.
So my question to you Gary & to all of us are you, we in darkness like Israel or Sardis, so that the Lord will come like a thief to us & that we will not know the day or hour of His coming?
Let`s look at your other scripture, the wonderful revelation by the Holy Spirit to the Thessalonians that hopefully describes us. But first let`s look at the THEM/THEY.
`For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night. While THEY are saying, "Peace & safety!` then destruction will come upon THEM suddenly like birth pangs upon a woman with child; & THEY shall not escape.` (1 Thess. 5: 2 & 3)
I certainly don`t want to be a part of the THEM/THEY with the Lord coming upon me like a thief in the night & not knowing when.
Looking to the Lord I believe He will keep me in the next group -
`BUT YOU, BRETHREN ARE NOT IN DARKNESS, THAT THE DAY SHOULD OVERTAKE YOU LIKE A THIEF; FOR YOU ARE ALL SONS OF LIGHT & SONS OF DAY. WE ARE NOT OF NIGHT NOR OF DARKNESS.`
Not shouting with the capitals but so rejoicing in my spirit at the revelation of not being in darkness nor that the day should overtake me/us as a thief.
So `therefore,` because of the above revelation,
`therefore, encourage one another, & build up one another, just as you are doing.` (1 Thess. 5: 11)
And I believe there is much encouragement here in this group.
Marilyn C
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| Re: The Temple Mount [message #9873 is a reply to message #9863] |
Wed, 02 October 2013 00:20 |
Marilyn Crow
Messages: 598
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Location: Australia |
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Gary, Just a thought on the generation. My husband Trevor reminded me of the 70 years God gave.
`As for the days of our life, they contain 70 years, or if due to strength, eighty years.` (Ps. 90: 10)
To me I used that number as a general observation that a generation would be passing away. If you went to 90 years there definitely would not be many of the `fig tree,` generation left.
But that is not my yard-stick as I believe the Body of Christ purpose happens first & God is not subject to man`s timetable. I`ll go into this next post in answering james.
Marilyn C
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| Re: The Temple Mount [message #9874 is a reply to message #9864] |
Wed, 02 October 2013 01:05 |
Marilyn Crow
Messages: 598
Registered: September 2013
Location: Australia |
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Hi james, glad we can get to know each other better through discussion. And I didn`t think you were accusing me of plucking dates. It was just a comment. Also it`s not that easy to carry on a conversation with the time lag whereas you can all chat after each other. I must need more patience. And I do.
Now concerning some of your comments. You said you didn`t have an opinion, but you did -`it could happen very quickly or take years,` is an opinion. I thought about it & if we thought the Lord was coming back quickly as opposed to years, well we wouldn`t buy those goods, or plan that holiday etc etc.if you see what I mean. I know people have said, `Live like the Lord is coming tomorrow but plan like He is coming in a thousand years,` or something like that as you were also trying to remember. Our forgetteries as playing up.
OK. Now the `unity & maturing part.` Yes I know & appreciate people have looked at those scriptures over the years but they have misinterpreted them. Let`s have a good look -
Eph. 4. Here we see the Apostle Paul speaking of two unities.
The unity of the Spirit & the unity of what we believe, Faith.
UNITY OF THE SPIRIT
`...being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace,...` (Eph. 4: 3)
Here we are told that it is by the Holy Spirit that we are in unity. It is the Holy Spirit that places us in the Body of Christ as He desires.
`...now God has placed the members, each one of them, in the Body, just as He desired.` (1 Cor. 13: 18)
People have misinterpreted seeing our differences of understanding of the word as meaning we are not in unity. Thus they have tried & still do to get Christians to form this & that to look like they are all one but it just ends up looking like a mass of `penguins.` - uniformity which we know is definitely not unity. But we have God`s assurance that He by His Holy Spirit has us in unity. As if we could ever do it. However our part is to `keep, preserve the unity of the Spirit.` That is all to do with our attitudes. `
`...walk in a manner worthy of the calling to which you have been called, with all humility & gentleness, with patience showing forbearance to one another in love, being diligent to PRESERVE the UNITY of the SPIRIT in the bond of peace.`(v.1 - 3)
UNITY OF FAITH
Thus said of course there are the glaring differences of what we all believe. Remember I said that the Lord sent the Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth of Him & His purposes. And then I gave a list of the truths that have been restored to the Body of Christ over the years. It may help to give you a personal example.
I am a third generation Apostolic though now not part of the denomination. This movement came out of the Welsh revival & stood for the 5-fold ministries. The other parts of the Body did not understand this revelation & there was much opposition. Even when I was in my 30`s in the `80`s the revelation had not yet come across the Body. Yet looking around today, the books, the messages, the acceptance of Apostles & Prophets as part of the 5-fold ministries is generally accepted across the Body. We, the Body have come to the unity of faith, what we believe in respect to that revelation. Of course there is much counterfeit.
Now because we have not been taken to our eternal setting, there is other revelation that the Holy Spirit has yet to reveal across the Body. As always a few receive at first then stand against opposition till finally more & more people receive the revelation & we all come to the Unity of the Faith, of what the Holy Spirit has revealed over time to the Body.
That is why Paul goes on in Eph. 4 to talk about false teachings `tossed to & fro,` & `speaking the truth in love.` There he combines the two unities. Speaking out the revelation that the Body needs to hear but speaking with the right attitude, in love.
Appreciating the discussion, james.
Marilyn C
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| Re: The Temple Mount [message #9877 is a reply to message #9876] |
Wed, 02 October 2013 11:12 |
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Gary
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Location: Indiana |
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Marilyn,
The verse in Psalm 90:10 The days of our lives are seventy years;
And if by reason of strength they are eighty years,
I believe that is a good promise from God that we can believe for and appropriate by faith, but the Lord is in control and only He knows our actual time on the earth. But it could be established as a generation but I don't know if that could be all conclusive for Bible interpretation.
Here is the scripture I was referring to earlier:
Matthew 24:36-44
36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. 42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.
Three times Jesus says we cannot know the hour of His coming. If it was possible to know the exact hour a lot of people would put on their Sunday best to impress the Lord that they are ready.
But by not knowing the exact hour it shows what is in a person's heart. Those who make an effort to be ready are showing their love for the Lord and the things of God.
And thinking about this it can be seen as a thief in the night, to mean that it will happen when no one is even aware it is happening. A thief sneaks in at night and steals the goods, you have know idea that he is there taking things till after it is over. My analogy for what its worth.
Because Jesus made these statements concerning His return I cannot see how any of us could ever figure out the hour. With that said, I think we can know the signs of the times and this motivates us to be ready and have the oil in our lamps.
Gary
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| Re: The Temple Mount [message #9879 is a reply to message #9874] |
Wed, 02 October 2013 14:40 |
james
Messages: 2142
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL |
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| Marilyn Crow wrote on Tue, 01 October 2013 20:05 |
Hi james, glad we can get to know each other better through discussion. And I didn`t think you were accusing me of plucking dates. It was just a comment. Also it`s not that easy to carry on a conversation with the time lag whereas you can all chat after each other. I must need more patience. And I do.
I too am glad to get to know fellow believers, especially those from down under. Patience is a virtue...I could always use more.
Now concerning some of your comments. You said you didn`t have an opinion, but you did -`it could happen very quickly or take years,` is an opinion. I thought about it & if we thought the Lord was coming back quickly as opposed to years, well we wouldn`t buy those goods, or plan that holiday etc etc.if you see what I mean. I know people have said, `Live like the Lord is coming tomorrow but plan like He is coming in a thousand years,` or something like that as you were also trying to remember. Our forgetteries as playing up.
You're correct, I do have an opinion, I should have said that I'm not dogmatic in my opinion concerning this discussion.<SMILE>
OK. Now the `unity & maturing part.` Yes I know & appreciate people have looked at those scriptures over the years but they have misinterpreted them. Let`s have a good look -
Eph. 4. Here we see the Apostle Paul speaking of two unities.
The unity of the Spirit & the unity of what we believe, Faith.
Maybe it would be better to say, "they have misinterpreted them...in my opinion." I'm sure all scriptures have been misinterpreted by 'someone' at various times, including the present. And I've certainly been guilty of misinterpreting scripture before.
UNITY OF THE SPIRIT
`...being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace,...` (Eph. 4: 3)
Here we are told that it is by the Holy Spirit that we are in unity. It is the Holy Spirit that places us in the Body of Christ as He desires.
`...now God has placed the members, each one of them, in the Body, just as He desired.` (1 Cor. 13: 18)
People have misinterpreted seeing our differences of understanding of the word as meaning we are not in unity. Thus they have tried & still do to get Christians to form this & that to look like they are all one but it just ends up looking like a mass of `penguins.` - uniformity which we know is definitely not unity. But we have God`s assurance that He by His Holy Spirit has us in unity. As if we could ever do it. However our part is to `keep, preserve the unity of the Spirit.` That is all to do with our attitudes. `
`...walk in a manner worthy of the calling to which you have been called, with all humility & gentleness, with patience showing forbearance to one another in love, being diligent to PRESERVE the UNITY of the SPIRIT in the bond of peace.`(v.1 - 3)
I'm not sure I can agree that The Body of Christ is walking in unity at this time, maybe small segments(remnant). The statement, "...has us in unity..." seems in conflict with Eph. 4:13 which says,"...until we all come to the unity of the faith..." So much of Christianity today are lead by denominational creeds and traditions, man made programs and leadership chosen by man and not called of God.(He gave some apostles, prophets, evangelist, pastors, teachers.....Key phrase, "He gave...")
UNITY OF FAITH
Thus said of course there are the glaring differences of what we all believe. Remember I said that the Lord sent the Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth of Him & His purposes. And then I gave a list of the truths that have been restored to the Body of Christ over the years. It may help to give you a personal example.
I am a third generation Apostolic though now not part of the denomination. This movement came out of the Welsh revival & stood for the 5-fold ministries. The other parts of the Body did not understand this revelation & there was much opposition. Even when I was in my 30`s in the `80`s the revelation had not yet come across the Body. Yet looking around today, the books, the messages, the acceptance of Apostles & Prophets as part of the 5-fold ministries is generally accepted across the Body. We, the Body have come to the unity of faith, what we believe in respect to that revelation. Of course there is much counterfeit.
Agreed, much counterfeit...Self appointed without the anointing that validates the office/position of 5-fold ministry. btw: In the 70's and early 80's here in America we had this revelation (those of us who were taught through the ministry of Hobart Freeman...most all on this forum, not saying we are all perfected or are in perfect unity...)
Now because we have not been taken to our eternal setting, there is other revelation that the Holy Spirit has yet to reveal across the Body. As always a few receive at first then stand against opposition till finally more & more people receive the revelation & we all come to the Unity of the Faith, of what the Holy Spirit has revealed over time to the Body.
That is why Paul goes on in Eph. 4 to talk about false teachings `tossed to & fro,` & `speaking the truth in love.` There he combines the two unities. Speaking out the revelation that the Body needs to hear but speaking with the right attitude, in love.
Appreciating the discussion, james.
I appreciate 'the right additude, in love'...
hope my 'additude' shows love...<smile>
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“But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,”
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