Home » Theological Doctrine » Eschatology » Manchild rapture wrong??
| Manchild rapture wrong?? [message #9882] |
Thu, 03 October 2013 14:56  |
 wishing34
Messages: 214
Registered: March 2009 |
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If the living believers will be changed in twinkling of an eye at the LAST TRUMP (I Cor 15:51-52)
and if . . .
if the LAST TRUMP is when when Jesus returns (end of trib) and raises the righteous dead (I Thess 4:15-17, Mat 24:31)
this is definitely AFTER the trib - Mk 13:24-27
and if . . .
if we which are alive at the rapture shall not precede (prevent in KJV) the righteous dead (I Thess 4:15)
then . . .
how can we preach an "overcomer/manchild" rapture at any time prior to the end of the trib?
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Remember that a big part of our pride, elitism, and "specialness" 30 years ago was because
we were the overcomers - a special class of believers being raised up to deliver groaning
creation after the "overcomer's rapture." If the overcomer's rapture was a wrong teaching
then our entire self definition was wrong, and a major, major focus of our teachings was wrong.
Also we were content to not worry ourselves about the missing signs ans wonders because
they were not for today (sounds very denominational doesn't it). They were to be part of
the future "greater works ministry" that we said would occur after the overcomer/Manchild
rapture.
Also we expected to be raptured out of the 7 yr trib
(Rev 3:10 does not have to mean this. Could just mean kept safe.)
If we ever find ourselves in the trib we would be shocked and possibly doubting things.
Jman
---sig------------------------------------------------------ ------------
At the time of this post . . .
FA, the satellites, the spinoffs,and the FA diaspora have been having church
without apostles for 41 years and 276 days.
Initial start date 1/1/72
Recommended: No faith stands that strongly impact our (our children's) lives until we figure out
why the signs and wonders are missing. Something is wrong.
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| Re: Manchild rapture wrong?? [message #9883 is a reply to message #9882] |
Thu, 03 October 2013 19:05  |
james
Messages: 2143
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL |
Senior Member |
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Here is a link to an interesting teaching on the Manchild-Latter Rain Doctrine/Movement. It gives some background on the history of the teaching of both the "Manchild", "Overcomers", as well as "Latter Rain". I'm not promoting or condemning the teacher, just thought it would be good reading for those who are interested in this discussion. Also not to 'correct' Jman, just found it very much like what I 'remember' Bro. Freeman teaching...without being able to compare it.
http://www.bibleanswerstand.org/manchild.htm
“But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,”
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| Re: Manchild rapture wrong?? [message #9886 is a reply to message #9882] |
Thu, 03 October 2013 23:56 |
Marilyn Crow
Messages: 598
Registered: September 2013
Location: Australia |
Senior Member |
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wishing,
Just a comment regarding `the last trump,` of 1 Cor. 15: 51 & 52
& `the great trumpet ` in Matt. 24: 31.
A `trumpet,` in scripture refers to God speaking. (Rev. 4: 1)
Then we look at who He is speaking to - `the great trumpet` (Matt.) is God`s word going out to Israel, the elect (also) of God. Jesus is speaking to the people of Israel about the time that He will come again to them as a nation. They rejected Him but God will restore them again & this `great trumpet,` is referring to God speaking forth & sending the angels to bring the people of Israel, who had scattered in the tribulation, back to their land after the persecution of the Anti-Christ.
Now the `last trump,` (1 Thess.)is again God speaking but this time it is to the Body of Christ & the last time that He will speak thus to them for after they hear `Come up hear,` they will be in the throne room & no more need the prophetic voice of God but will hear clearly.
As regards to `the wrath.`
The Holy Spirit clearly says that the Body of Christ will not only be delivered from the wrath to come but is not even destined for the wrath of God. (1 Thess. 1: 10 & 5: 9)
The wrath of God is poured out on the rebellious. Whereas Salvation means we are saved from the wrath of God. That is why Christ died - for our sins & thus we will not be punished for our sins like those going through the tribulation.
As 2 Peter 1:3 - 7 says that to be made like Christ is through dying to self & working with the Holy Spirit to have Christ`s divine nature outworked in us. Physical suffering through the tribulation will make many repent but it does not refine our spirits. That is the work of the Holy Spirit now.
Hope that helps.
Marilyn C
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| Re: Manchild rapture wrong?? [message #9889 is a reply to message #9886] |
Fri, 04 October 2013 01:36 |
wishing34
Messages: 214
Registered: March 2009 |
Senior Member |
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Hi Marilyn,
Everyone here calls me "Jman"
Thanks for responding.
You said | Quote: |
A `trumpet,` in scripture refers to God speaking. (Rev. 4: 1)
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Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking
with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
How does this verse cause you to say that the trumps of the rapture/2nd coming verses (that I referenced above) are voices instead of trumpets?
This Rev 4:1 voice resembled a trumpet - this does not mean trumpets elsewhere are voices.
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Jman
---sig------------------------------------------------------ ------------
At the time of this post . . .
FA, the satellites, the spinoffs,and the FA diaspora have been having church
without apostles for 41 years and 276 days.
Initial start date 1/1/72
Recommended: No faith stands that strongly impact our (our children's) lives until we figure out
why the signs and wonders are missing. Something is wrong.
[Updated on: Fri, 04 October 2013 01:46]
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| Re: Manchild rapture wrong?? [message #9890 is a reply to message #9889] |
Fri, 04 October 2013 04:07 |
Marilyn Crow
Messages: 598
Registered: September 2013
Location: Australia |
Senior Member |
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Hi Jman,
A good question, & one I hope to clarify.
{Quote}
`I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.`
`How does this verse cause you to say that the trumps of the rapture/2nd coming verses (that I referenced above) are voices instead of trumpets?
This Rev 4:1 voice resembled a trumpet - this does not mean trumpets elsewhere are voices.` {Unquote}
(Other scriptures for people reading, were for the Body of Christ 1 Cor. 15: 51 & 52 & 1 Thess. 4: 16 and for Israel Matt. 24: 31)
Trumpets are earthly things & not of the spirit world. It is a perishable object of this world & not an imperishable object that is of the heavenly realms.
Also, God always gives His meaning to His symbols so as it is not up to our interpretation. Thus the voice AS a trumpet clearly shows that in the heavenly realms it is actually the voice of God declaring by His authority what has to happen.
Jesus Himself said concerning the final coming forth of the dead,(not in the Body of Christ) at the very end of time, that the authority of His voice will bring them forth.
`Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming & now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God; & those who hear shall live.
For just as the Father has life in Himself, even as He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself; & He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man.
Do not marvel at this: for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs shall hear His voice, & shall come forth:.....`(John 5: 25 - 29)
Hope this helps.
Marilyn C
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| Re: Manchild rapture wrong?? [message #9891 is a reply to message #9889] |
Fri, 04 October 2013 04:57 |
Marilyn Crow
Messages: 598
Registered: September 2013
Location: Australia |
Senior Member |
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jman.
This section was on the e-mail that came to me but I can`t see it now on your comment. Anyway I will give a comment.
I said this...
Quote:
`The Holy Spirit clearly says that the Body of Christ will not only be delivered from the wrath to come . . .`Unquote
You said...
Quote.`Must "delivered from the wrath to come" be a rapture? Could God not deliver a group via Divine protection while they remain in earth during the trib? Rev 12 "woman" for example.` Unquote.
Yes we know God is all powerful & can does all things after His will. And that is the Key. Too often we look at the things happening or what we think should happen but without understanding WHY God is doing such & such. The WHY understanding leads clearly to WHAT is happening.
Just talking about God could do this & that, yes He could but He has eternal purposes & they are that in each realm of His great kingdom all authority will come under Christ. In each realm evil has come & there has to be a cleansing & putting in place authority under Christ.
Thus for the Body of Christ to go through the tribulation does not make sense for they are the court that will bring judgment on the world system & the fallen angels. The Apostle Paul told us this -
`do you not know that the saints will judge the world (system)?`
and `Do you not know that we shall judge angels?` (1 Cor.6:2&3)
Then through
out Revelation we see the 24 elders (representative of the Body of Christ) on thrones (Rev. 4: 4) with authority promised as King Priests & in Rev. 11: 16 - 18.
The prophet Daniel saw this court, though he wasn`t told who they were, as the Body of Christ was hidden purpose of God at that time.
`I kept looking until thrones were set up......The court sat..
But the court will sit for judgment.....` (Da. 7: 9,10 & 26)
And now to the Man child. But I think I will leave that for another time.
Good talking with you, jman.
Marilyn C
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| Re: Manchild rapture wrong?? [message #9892 is a reply to message #9891] |
Fri, 04 October 2013 11:12 |
wishing34
Messages: 214
Registered: March 2009 |
Senior Member |
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Hi Marylin,
Thanks for responding.
Your method of interpretation of the Scriptures is not literal enough for my tastes.
You seem to add a layer of meaning on top of the literal God-breathed words -> maybe a
theoretical symbolism, or an assumed motive of "why" God said it, or a logical analysis
regarding to whom a Scripture was meant.
Then, with this added layer of meaning, you are able to arrive at interpretations for the text
that are different from the interpretation one has from only the literal text.
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Here is what you want to do to quote something -
on this link
http://overcomersonline.com/FUDforum2/index.php?t=help_index §ion=readingposting&S=3dae9ab80ba1d4775bbb956d9a f8c085#style
do a word search for "Hello world"
( half way down the page)
Jman
---sig------------------------------------------------------ ------------
At the time of this post . . .
FA, the satellites, the spinoffs,and the FA diaspora have been having church
without apostles for 41 years and 277 days.
Initial start date 1/1/72
Recommended: No faith stands that strongly impact our (our children's) lives until we figure out
why the signs and wonders are missing. Something is wrong.
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| Re: Manchild rapture wrong?? [message #9894 is a reply to message #9892] |
Fri, 04 October 2013 17:32 |
Marilyn Crow
Messages: 598
Registered: September 2013
Location: Australia |
Senior Member |
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Hi Jman.
Thank you for the help regarding the quote/boxes. Gary also showed me but obviously I`m not doing it right, but will read up & try again.
Now concerning our discussion. I was surprised with your statements. What makes them difficult is that you have not given any evidence to back up your claims. To have an honest discussion we need to try & explain & back up what we say so that we work our way to understanding each other & hopefully come to understand the truth.
So specifically what is not literal with my comments -
THE BODY OF CHRIST -
- judges the world system. (1 Cor. 6: 2)
- judges fallen angels. (1 Cor. 6: 3)
- are King Priests on Christ`s throne. (Rev. 3: 21 & 4: 4)
- are the court on thrones. (Dan. 7: 9, 10 & 26)
These are just what is written in God`s word. How have I not taken them literally? What is you explanation? evidence?
We can all make statements but if we are to learn the truth then there needs to be scriptural explanations backing up what you are saying otherwise it is just your opinion & we all have those.
Marilyn C
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| Re: Manchild rapture wrong?? [message #9895 is a reply to message #9894] |
Fri, 04 October 2013 18:01 |
wishing34
Messages: 214
Registered: March 2009 |
Senior Member |
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Hi Marylin,
Thanks for responding.
I will leave our exchange where it is.
We could go back and forth mucho and eventually agree to disagree.
Too frustrating for both of us.
Jman
---sig------------------------------------------------------ ------------
At the time of this post . . .
FA, the satellites, the spinoffs,and the FA diaspora have been having church
without apostles for 41 years and 277 days.
Initial start date 1/1/72
Recommended: No faith stands that strongly impact our (our children's) lives until we figure out
why the signs and wonders are missing. Something is wrong.
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| Re: Manchild rapture wrong?? [message #9896 is a reply to message #9895] |
Fri, 04 October 2013 18:14 |
wishing34
Messages: 214
Registered: March 2009 |
Senior Member |
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Marylin,
I had a post above only about Rev4:1 trumpet concepts.
On that post I originally had other comments that I deleted.
Someone emailed you the deleted comments that were deleted after about 5 minutes.
Who sent you that email?
thanks
Jman
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| Re: Manchild rapture wrong?? [message #9901 is a reply to message #9895] |
Fri, 04 October 2013 22:29 |
Marilyn Crow
Messages: 598
Registered: September 2013
Location: Australia |
Senior Member |
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Jman.
Actually I don`t believe in `agree to disagree.` I do respect that you hold different views than me & will not get into controversy, wrangling with words. However it was disappointing to see that you think you can `accuse,` a person without evidence or bringing forth the truth. We are told to
`diligent to present yourself approved of God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, handling accurately the word of truth.` (2 Tim. 2: 15)
This is why we discuss here. And
`be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth.`
(2 Tim. 2: 24 & 25)
Marilyn C
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| Re: Manchild rapture wrong?? [message #9946 is a reply to message #9901] |
Mon, 07 October 2013 06:01 |
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Gary
Messages: 1025
Registered: August 2008
Location: Indiana |
Senior Member |
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Hi Marilyn,
I will try to show you again how to do the brackets. Below will be a quote but without these brackets, [ ]
(quote) Let us give Thanks (/quote)
This is the way you isolate a conversation you want to comment on but use the square brackets instead of the curved ones I am demonstrating with ( ) , here is what the square brackets look like on your keyboard: [ ] So the word quote will have the square brackets instead of the rounded brackets in the quote above.
I hope this is easier to understand, pay attention to the brackets and what I said, and may the Lord help you as well to understand.
After trying this scroll down and hit preview message, then scroll back up and see if the comment is captured in a box. Once you hit submit reply the brackets disappear and a box is set around the message you are trying to isolate.
| Quote: |
Trumpets are earthly things & not of the spirit world. It is a perishable object of this world & not an imperishable object that is of the heavenly realms.
Also, God always gives His meaning to His symbols so as it is not up to our interpretation. Thus the voice AS a trumpet clearly shows that in the heavenly realms it is actually the voice of God declaring by His authority what has to happen.
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Okay I see what you are saying in this verse and I agree with it. The scripture is quite clear that the voice sounds (as it were),like a trumpet, but it is literally the voice of God. I cannot imagine a literal trumpet talking to someone.
BTW the term "agree to disagree" actually came from two well known Christians who both could not come to agree on certain doctrines that caused division between their groups. In fact someone just told me the other day that it became so bad between these Christian groups that it came to literal fist fights.
I could probably list ten subjects that are very divisive doctrines in Christianity. I have seen whole churches split in half over doctrines. Close friends acting totally unchristian towards one another because they thought they were defending God's Word.
Its a bad situation that I don't see it ever leaving while we are on this earth. Why? Doctrine is divisive. For now we have to hold fast to that which is good until the Lord establishes His Kingdom on the earth.
I don't know how it is in Australia but here in America we have just learned to live with it. I have friends in other churches who our differences in life are over Bible doctrines. Sad commentary but that is the state of the church in these end times.
I was in a coffee shop this weekend and noticed a world map on the wall. I was surprised to see that Australia is almost as big as America in land mass, I always pictured it as being quite smaller. Then I googled Australia with google earth and for the most part our countries are no different. Australia looked like the typical American cities.
I find this interesting.
I am thinking we are probably not to far different in our view of the scriptures, I am willing to take a serious look at what is shared if it differs from what I believe but I can see it in the Bible I will choose to believe what the Bible says.
I have noticed over the years when people become indoctrinated they refuse to look at the scriptures if it does not line up to their view and is different in content. I think there is a sense of security in holding on to certain doctrines.
For instance on the Baptism of the Spirit I know people who say its not for today and will not take a serious look at the Bible to see if it is true or not. I am trying not to fall into this snare of men's souls, which Jesus calls seeing they see but cannot see and hearing they hear and cannot hear.
I know this for sure its good to have doctrine but to be Spirit led and Spirit taught is a whole different ball game.
Now mind you, I don't have a opinion on this here. 
Anyway I hope this new information about the brackets helps.
Gary
[Updated on: Mon, 07 October 2013 06:03]
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| Re: Manchild rapture wrong?? [message #9947 is a reply to message #9946] |
Mon, 07 October 2013 06:52 |
Marilyn Crow
Messages: 598
Registered: September 2013
Location: Australia |
Senior Member |
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Thank you so much for being patient with a `learner,` driver here, Gary. So here goes....
| Quote: |
I am thinking we are probably not to far different in our view of the scriptures, I am willing to take a serious look at what is shared if it differs from what I believe but I can see it in the Bible I will choose to believe what the Bible says.
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`Voila,` there it is, a 1,000 thankyou`s as my brother would say.
And I totally agree & if we still can`t for any reason not understand each other I know that the Lord will in time help us to come to the full knowledge of Him, whether here on earth or with Him. And you are so right, fancy letting doctrines divide families, but as I`m saying that I do realise that it is the wrong attitudes that divides as James 3: 13 - 18.
Interesting about USA & Australia. And yes we do copy you in lots of areas but still have our `Aussie,` flavour, culture, `She`ll be right mate!` etc
You must be up early? Or having half time as hubby & I say when we get up in the night. I tell you something scary. My birthday was yesterday on the 6th & guess what age...yes 66, mmmmmm
Is that a sign? No only kidding.
Have a good day/night
Marilyn C
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| Re: Manchild rapture wrong?? [message #10029 is a reply to message #9882] |
Sat, 19 October 2013 05:08 |
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Gary
Messages: 1025
Registered: August 2008
Location: Indiana |
Senior Member |
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| Quote: |
Jman wrote: how can we preach an "overcomer/manchild" rapture at any time prior to the end of the trib?
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I think its "before" the trib that the manchild is raptured. God gives the woman the wings of an eagle to fly into the wilderness where "they" will feed her for 3 and a 1/2 years. She is taken out in the middle of the trib at least that is how we were taught it.
| Quote: |
Marilyn wrote: And now to the Man child. But I think I will leave that for another time.
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Not expecting a reply here but glad your leaving this on the back burner for now.
(I also hope you can understand all of my American use of colloquialism's with words), like; you know "on the back burner".
Anyway I have some more thoughts on this manchild and this woman mentioned in scripture.
Two signs appear in heaven: This woman clothed with a garland of twelve stars.
I think this can be none other then the church of Jesus Christ in the world today and who has the teachings of the twelve apostles on her head.
The second sign in heaven is of a great dragon who stood before the woman who was to give birth to this manchild. If you notice his tail drew a third of the stars from heaven. We know that satan drew a third of the angels from heaven.
Why at the beginning of the tribulation would the dragon single out this woman and goes forth to make war with her. This can be none other then the church world which we see today who are complacent towards the things of God.
This manchild is going to rule the earth with a rod of iron. Where do we see this in scriptures?
| Quote: |
24 “Now to you I say, and to the rest in Thyatira, as many as do not have this doctrine, who have not known the depths of Satan, as they say, I will put on you no other burden. 25 But hold fast what you have till I come. 26 And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations—
27 ‘He shall rule them with a rod of iron;They shall be dashed to pieces like the potter’s vessels’
as I also have received from My Father; 28 and I will give him the morning star.
29 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”’
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This manchild when he is born is caught up immediately to the throne of God.
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And her Child was caught up to God and His throne.
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The woman then flees to the wilderness for 3 and a 1/2 years where "God" has a place prepared for her.
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6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.
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Notice in this place that it says "they" should feed her in this wilderness.
So we have this sign of a woman appears in heaven, God is there helping the woman and allows her to flee to a wilderness place of safety and He has someone called "they" who are feeding this woman and taking care of her during the 3 and 1/2 years of tribulation.
This one small section of scripture concerns a woman, a child, and the dragon.
I believe the woman is the church and that satan will come against the church at the beginning of the trib, why? she will probably be resistant to receiving a mark in the arm and the forehead. Plus she gave birth to this manchild.
Reading further a war takes place in heaven and the dragon is cast down to the earth then we see:
| Quote: |
13 Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. 14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. 15 So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood. 16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
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God helps this woman so the dragon goes off to make war with her offspring, who keep the commandments of God.
Anyway Marilyn just some thoughts on this woman will share more later, not expecting a reply if you want to keep this before the Lord here. Will share more later on this.
Gary
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| Re: Manchild rapture wrong?? [message #10182 is a reply to message #9882] |
Mon, 04 November 2013 02:23 |
Michael R
Messages: 20
Registered: October 2013 |
Junior Member |
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I'm not sure how this affects the question posed at the beginning of the thread, but some time ago when I read 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 I was wondering when the "we will be changed" was supposed to happen. (I assume this refers to the assumption of the spiritual nature and the shedding of the physical nature, but I'm speculating.)
The verse says "at the last trumpet." Out of curiosity I went to the last chapter of Revelation and started browsing backward for the last mention of a trumpet being sounded. I don't know whether this is a reasonable correlation or not, but consider the following three references:
1 Corinthians 15:51-54,
"Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”"
Revelation 10:6-7,
"And he swore by him who lives for ever and ever, who created the heavens and all that is in them, the earth and all that is in it, and the sea and all that is in it, and said, “There will be no more delay! But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.”"
Revelation 11:15-19,
"The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:
“The kingdom of the world has become
the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,
and he will reign for ever and ever.”
And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, saying:
“We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty,
the One who is and who was,
because you have taken your great power
and have begun to reign.
The nations were angry,
and your wrath has come.
The time has come for judging the dead,
and for rewarding your servants the prophets
and your people who revere your name,
both great and small—
and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”
Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant. And there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake and a severe hailstorm."
Someone might question whether Paul could be referring to something written (probably later in the future) by John, but it was the Holy Spirit speaking through both of them, so that question is basically void.
I do see some similarity between what is mentioned in Corinthians and what is mentioned in the Revelation. For example,
"in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet." (1 Cor 15:51)
"There will be no more delay!" (Rev 10:6)
and
"Listen, I tell you a mystery...
...then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”" (1 Cor 15:51)
"the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets." (Rev 10:7)
"Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant." (Rev 11:19)
and
"For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed." (1 Cor 15:52)
"The time has come for judging the dead,
and for rewarding your servants the prophets
and your people who revere your name,
both great and small—
and for destroying those who destroy the earth." (Rev 11:18)
I may just be gushing ignorance, but I hope it's at least food for thought.
[Updated on: Mon, 04 November 2013 02:33]
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| Re: Manchild rapture wrong?? [message #10184 is a reply to message #10182] |
Mon, 04 November 2013 07:42 |
Marilyn Crow
Messages: 598
Registered: September 2013
Location: Australia |
Senior Member |
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Hi Michael,
A wonderful hope we have.
Now many people have read scripture & come to the conclusion you have. I would like to present to you what I have been taught.
We know that God wrote the scriptures & that there are various `keys,` to interpretation. For instance we need to know who is speaking & then to read in context, as we do in everyday reading, we need to read all the other scriptures on a specific topic etc. These are general common sense keys.
Now God has included other `keys,` that we may not be aware of. The main one being that Jesus is the centre of His word. (Luke 24: 44) Another important key concerns the 3 groups - The Body of Christ, Israel & the Nations. (1 Cor. 10: 32) We need to know which group God is dealing with & what His promises are to them otherwise we misinterpret His word.
So concerning the `last trump,` in 1 Cor. 15: 51 - 54, this is God`s call to the Body of Christ to come up to the third heaven where they will rule & reign with Him. (Rev. 3 : 21)
The 7th, the last trumpet in Revelation 11: 15 - 19 concerns God`s call to Israel & the nations, declaring that Christ is the ruler over the kingdoms of the earth. This happens when Christ returns to the earth with His angelic army at Armageddon. (Rev. 19: 11 - 21)
The `trumpet,` is a symbol of God`s voice. (Rev. 4: 1)
`the first voice which I heard, like the sound of a trumpet....`
Hope this gives food for thought.
Marilyn C
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| Re: Manchild rapture wrong?? [message #10187 is a reply to message #10182] |
Mon, 04 November 2013 11:49 |
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Gary
Messages: 1025
Registered: August 2008
Location: Indiana |
Senior Member |
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| Quote: |
Michael Wrote:
I'm not sure how this affects the question posed at the beginning of the thread, but some time ago when I read 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 I was wondering when the "we will be changed" was supposed to happen. (I assume this refers to the assumption of the spiritual nature and the shedding of the physical nature, but I'm speculating.)
Secondly:
I may just be gushing ignorance, but I hope it's at least food for thought.
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Hi Michael,
What you shared is good and always worth contemplating.
I have always heard our glorified bodies will be like Jesus, and the body He returned to earth in. I don't know if there is a scripture for this off the top of my head.
But I do know the Lord said: 29 Jesus answered and said to them, “You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven.
From this we can know that whatever happens we will be like the Angels in heaven.
When this takes place; I believe literally at the rapture or maybe when death occurs and we cross over to the other side. These bodies are corrupt from the fall of man and God will give us a new body.
We can only glean from scriptures the nature of these bodies. In one place in Revelations it says: they will not feel heat, also I think we will recognize one another as the disciples recognized Moses and Elijah on the Mount of transfiguration, at least somehow they knew who they were having never seen them before, if that makes sense.
Unless someone has scripture I do not know if we will have a body exactly like Jesus as He is God, but I do know we will be as the angels in heaven.
Gary
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| Re: Manchild rapture wrong?? [message #10190 is a reply to message #10188] |
Mon, 04 November 2013 14:21 |
wishing34
Messages: 214
Registered: March 2009 |
Senior Member |
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Hi Marylin,
Consider . . . .
A person walks into a home that has gigantic ceiling to floor picture windows that
look out upon a woods.
On these windows a very gifted artist has painted realistic looking trees, birds, people,
and animals.
Outside on the deck the person admires the woods.
He walks inside and when he looks through the window he sees the woods with
the artist's people, animals, etc. superimposed into the woods. But the people/animals
are actually merely painted on the glass of the windows.
"Oh, now I see the woods differently. There is a fox .. and a yellow bird in that tree . ..
and a man in that far place."
The person actually believes he sees the fox/bird/man but they are not real. It is
because he is looking at reality through windows that add things to what is seen.
=======================
Okay. With that idea in place. . . .
The woods stands for God's word and the images painted on the glass are extra
things that are not really in God's word.
--------------
Marylin, when you put into your Bible analysis things like
symbolism meanings
"The `trumpet,` is a symbol of God`s voice. (Rev. 4: 1)"
or keys
"Now God has included other `keys,` that we may not be aware of. The main one being that Jesus is the centre of His word. (Luke 24: 44)
Another important key concerns the 3 groups - The Body of Christ, Israel & the Nations. (1 Cor. 10: 32) We need to know
which group God is dealing with & what His promises are to them otherwise we misinterpret His word. "
you are painting new art images on that glass window. Now when you look through the window at the woods (God's word) you sincerely see
things that are not really in the woods.
Without realizing it you are changing the meaning of what the Scriptures literally say.
Jman
---sig------------------------------------------------------ ------------
At the time of this post . . .
FA, the satellites, the spinoffs,and the FA diaspora have been having church
without apostles for 41 years and 308 days.
Initial start date 1/1/72
Recommended: No faith stands that strongly impact our (our children's) lives until we figure out
why the signs and wonders are missing. Something is wrong.
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| Re: Manchild rapture wrong?? [message #10194 is a reply to message #10192] |
Mon, 04 November 2013 20:44 |
wishing34
Messages: 214
Registered: March 2009 |
Senior Member |
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Hi Gary,
What am I seeing incorrectly?
If the righteous dead are raised after the 7 year trib and Paul says we shall not
precede them, rather we will meet them in the air . . . then how can there be a pre-trib
rapture?
Jman
---sig------------------------------------------------------ ------------
At the time of this post . . .
FA, the satellites, the spinoffs,and the FA diaspora have been having church
without apostles for 41 years and 308 days.
Initial start date 1/1/72
Recommended: No faith stands that strongly impact our (our children's) lives until we figure out
why the signs and wonders are missing. Something is wrong.
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| Re: Manchild rapture wrong?? [message #10196 is a reply to message #10188] |
Mon, 04 November 2013 21:27 |
Marilyn Crow
Messages: 598
Registered: September 2013
Location: Australia |
Senior Member |
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Hi Gary,
I love to talk about what Christ has promised as it is so amazing & makes me just want to know Him more.
Now you were asking me concerning `ruling & reigning,` with Christ, & do I believe this is for all the Body of Christ or just the overcomers. I know the scriptures say we, the Body of Christ rule & reign with Christ, however I realise, as you do that there are differences. This is the scripture you said...
`each man`s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire; & the fire itself will test the quality of each man`s work. if any man`s work which he has built upon it remains, he shall receive a reward, if any man`s work is burned up he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as through fire.` (1 Cor. 3: 13 - 15)
Personally, I believe that according to the outworking of Christ in our lives will be the capacity to `rule & reign,` in glory.
Some scriptures on `ruling & reigning.`
`To Him who loved us & washed us from our sins in His own blood, & has made us kings & priests to His God & Father...` (Rev. 1:5 & 6)
`And he who overcomes, & keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations....` (Rev. 2: 26)
`To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne...` (Rev. 3: 21)
`Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? (system)` `Do you not know that we shall judge angels?` (1 Cor. 6: 2 & 3)
[Updated on: Mon, 04 November 2013 21:27]
Marilyn C
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| Re: Manchild rapture wrong?? [message #10197 is a reply to message #10190] |
Mon, 04 November 2013 21:54 |
Marilyn Crow
Messages: 598
Registered: September 2013
Location: Australia |
Senior Member |
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Hi Jman,
Interesting picture you described. It shows me as you said everyone`s opinions, that is why we need to learn to handle accurately God`s word. and He has not left it up to us to paint our own pictures on the glass, as it were. (Good illustration)
So let`s look at what you think I have changed.
`After these things I looked, & behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was LIKE a trumpet speaking to me, saying, "Come up here."` (Rev. 4 : 1)
That is quite clear in plain English God`s voice was LIKE a TRUMPET. It is called a symbol. God`s voice is not a trumpet, trumpets are earthly things. God uses the symbolic picture to help us know it is a signal to rally together (for the Body of Christ) or later a signal of war (wrath) in the tribulation. God gave the Israelites these meanings when they were in the wilderness.
Then you said -
| Quote: |
Without realizing it you are changing the meaning of what the Scriptures literally say.
|
Let`s look at those scriptures I drew attention to -
`Then He (Christ) said to them (the disciples), "These are the words which I spoke to you while I was with still you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses & the Prophets & the Psalms concerning Me.` (Luke 24: 44)
Let`s also add -
`And beginning at Moses & all the Prophets, He expounded to them in ALL the scriptures the things concerning Himself.` (Luke 24: 27)
These scriptures `literally say` that Christ is the centre of His word.
Then concerning the 3 groups God is dealing with -
`Give no offense, either to the Jews (Israel), or to the Greeks (Nations) or to the church of God.` (1 Cor. 10: 32)
This scripture `literally says,` that God has 3 groups He is dealing with.
If these scriptures are not taken notice of when reading God`s word then we will not learn to handle accurately God`s word.
In that sense they are `keys,` helps, guides etc.
I have noticed that people who do not place Christ as the centre tend to have God`s word revolve around themselves. Then if people are not discerning the 3 groups, then everything is jumbled in together.
[Updated on: Mon, 04 November 2013 21:58]
Marilyn C
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| Re: Manchild rapture wrong?? [message #10199 is a reply to message #10198] |
Mon, 04 November 2013 22:02 |
Marilyn Crow
Messages: 598
Registered: September 2013
Location: Australia |
Senior Member |
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Amen Gary,
They are overcome instead of being overcomers in Christ. So it would seem we are saying that overcomers `rule & reign` with Christ as King priests, & that within that group there are differences according to the works that were done in the Holy spirit or for self.
Is that what you mean also?
[Updated on: Mon, 04 November 2013 22:25]
Marilyn C
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| Re: Manchild rapture wrong?? [message #10200 is a reply to message #10190] |
Mon, 04 November 2013 22:46 |
Marilyn Crow
Messages: 598
Registered: September 2013
Location: Australia |
Senior Member |
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Hi Jman,
Here are some more thoughts on Christ being the centre of His word. (They are by C.J.Rolls a former teacher of the Word)
`Christ is the basic substance of all that the shadows forecast (Heb.10:1). "And beginning at Moses & all the prophets, He expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning Himself."
`Christ is the historic centre of all recorded Bible history, "To Him give all the prophets witness" (Acts 10: 43)
He is the prophetic seal of authenticity to all prediction, "The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy" (Rev. 19:10)
He is the dynamic power of all authority. "By me kings reign, & princes decree justice" (Prov. 8: 15) `All power is given unto Me in heaven & on earth." (Matt. 28: 18)
He is the intrinsic wealth of all spiritual values, "In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom & knowledge." (Col. 2: 3) "His riches in glory." (Phil. 4: 19)
He is the specific governor of all nations, " The kingdom is the Lord`s. He is the governor among the nations.` (Ps.22" 28)
He is the realistic expression of Deity, "He that hath seen Me hath seen the Father" (John 14: 9). "The image of the invisible God." (Col. 1: 15) "The express image of His person." (Heb. 1: 3)
These are but a few of the many ruling lines of revealed truth concerning Messiah, yet if these seven features only were removed from scripture, the Bible would be bereft of both plan & purpose. Yea, it would leave us without incentive or objective.
We might even go further & say the structure of the volume would have no clear commencement, no definite centre, & no determined consummation. Christ, the Living Word, is indispensable to the entire record.
[Updated on: Mon, 04 November 2013 22:48]
Marilyn C
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| Re: Manchild rapture wrong?? [message #10202 is a reply to message #10200] |
Mon, 04 November 2013 23:51 |
Michael R
Messages: 20
Registered: October 2013 |
Junior Member |
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Marilyn,
Using Revelation 4:1 you said,
| Quote: |
The `trumpet,` is a symbol of God`s voice. (Rev. 4: 1)
`the first voice which I heard, like the sound of a trumpet....`
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You also said,
| Quote: |
So concerning the `last trump,` in 1 Cor. 15: 51 - 54, this is God`s call to the Body of Christ to come up to the third heaven where they will rule & reign with Him. (Rev. 3 : 21)
|
I want to be clear about what you are saying so I don't make mistake it; do you mean that the trumpet spoken of in 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 is God's voice?
The reason I want to clarify this is that you state in a post later on that
| Quote: |
God`s voice is not a trumpet, trumpets are earthly things.
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I guess I'm confused. It sounded as though you are saying both that God's voice is a trumpet (in 1 Corinthians 15), and that God's voice is not a trumpet. Am I missing something?
Also, have you thought about the seven angels and their trumpets in Revelation 8-11? Are these also earthly things?
Sorry, I hope you can help me with that.
[Updated on: Tue, 05 November 2013 00:17]
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| Re: Manchild rapture wrong?? [message #10206 is a reply to message #10203] |
Tue, 05 November 2013 00:30 |
Marilyn Crow
Messages: 598
Registered: September 2013
Location: Australia |
Senior Member |
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So true Gary,
I see all my flaws & faults but know the Lord is changing us. It is so beyond our understanding but all praise to Him who loved us first.
Marilyn C
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| Re: Manchild rapture wrong?? [message #10207 is a reply to message #10202] |
Tue, 05 November 2013 00:52 |
Marilyn Crow
Messages: 598
Registered: September 2013
Location: Australia |
Senior Member |
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Hi Michael,
Sorry if I came over ambiguous. I mean that I see when God`s word says His voice is like a trumpet - (Rev: 4: 1)saying, `Come up here,` then that is what He is saying to the believers in 1 Cor. 15: 52 ` in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet;....` when God`s voice, like a trumpet, calls us (for the last time on this earth) heavenward to glory to be with Him.
When I said God`s voice is not a trumpet, I meant not a real trumpet but is symbolically described as, like a trumpet. It is a good symbol as it denotes that God`s voice in that instance is concerned with heralding, calling His people home.
Now the 7 angels with their trumpets in Revelation 8 - 11, are also symbols of God`s voice, His commands, His declarations going forth, shown as the angels blowing trumpets. As I have said trumpets are earthly things & therefore are not in the heavenly realms. These 7 angels are before God`s throne, (Rev. 8:2) & they are sent forth to declare God`s judgements upon the earth.
God`s voice is also described as powerful, majestic, thundering, associated with the sound of many waters.....etc.
(Ps. 29: 4 Job 37: 5 John 12: 28 - 29 5: 28 etc)
Hope that explains it better.
Marilyn C
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| Re: Manchild rapture wrong?? [message #10210 is a reply to message #10209] |
Tue, 05 November 2013 01:32 |
wishing34
Messages: 214
Registered: March 2009 |
Senior Member |
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Hi Marylin,
Once you paint the image "Trumpets are a symbol for God's voice" onto the window you will automatically
begin to see the woods (God's word) through that symbolism.
Rev 4:1 could easily mean the voice was loud and overpowering like a trumpet blast. This interpretation
would not institute a trumpet/voice symbolism to apply to other Scripture trumpets.
The symbolism you apply is a layer of interpretation that is man-created. God has not instituted
any trumpet/voice symbolism in this verse.
An error this trumpet/voice symbolism causes is to think that the last trump at the ressurection of the
dead ( Matt 24:31 ) is not an actual trumpet, but instead it is the voice of God. Here the trumpet/voice
symbolism leads us astray if this Matt 24:31 trumpet is not recognized to be the same unique "last trump" of
I Cor 15:52 and I Thess 4:16. This relates directly to the original posting above that began this thread.
Side note: In I Thess 4:16 the shout of the Lord and the trump are both mentioned separately indicating that
they are not the same thing.
-----------------
Side note
Marylin, this is to get you up to speed concerning the common background the rest of us share - and
help understand the terminology as we use it.
You are probably unaware of our group's previous ( decades ago )
eschatology. What was unique ( and what inpired this thread ) is that we believed there was a special group
of believers in this end time called "overcomers." Naturally we felt we were the overcomer group being called
out by God to receive especially good teaching through Dr. Freeman, our main teacher.
We believed that the overcomer segment of God's people ( that would be us ) was going to be raptured
at the start of the 7 year trib. We would then be sent back to earth to minister to those still on the earth.
At this time we would experience what we called the "Greater Works Ministry" wherein we would do many
mighty signs and wonders here on the earth. This is akin to the "Manifested Sons of God" theology. No doubt
our version was not a perfect match to other ministries though.
We based this primarily on Rev 12 and the manchild vision there. So we were the manchild soon to be
taken to God's throne via a rapture. We also called ourselves the overcomers. To qualify for the manchild
rapture we had to "overcome in all things." We basically interpreted the verses in Rev 2 and 3 as "he that overcometh
in all things . . . " and then they were seen as proof texts for our beliefs.
Overcomer meant to overcome in all things. So we had tremendous incentive ( and peer and pulpit pressure )
to never fall short in any way so that we would not miss the overcomer, manchild, pre-trib rapture. Perfect holiness,
perfect diligence in study and ethics, perfect commitment, and perfect faith. All good goals, but there can arise
problems when people must never allow themselves to fall short.
----
So that is why some of us are passionate about the pre-trib, manchild, overcomer rapture. It was a foundational concept
as to why our church(es) existed, and why we were different from other churches.
Jman
---sig------------------------------------------------------ ------------
At the time of this post . . .
FA, the satellites, the spinoffs,and the FA diaspora have been having church
without apostles for 41 years and 308 days.
Initial start date 1/1/72
Recommended: No faith stands that strongly impact our (our children's) lives until we figure out
why the signs and wonders are missing. Something is wrong.
|
|
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| Re: Manchild rapture wrong?? [message #10211 is a reply to message #10210] |
Tue, 05 November 2013 04:28 |
Marilyn Crow
Messages: 598
Registered: September 2013
Location: Australia |
Senior Member |
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Hi Jman,
Thank you for the explanation. I have read some of the articles & comments here & Gary has shared what you said also. I do appreciate hearing where you all have come from & what has shaped
your beliefs.
Now to your questions & comments.Like you I do not believe that every `trumpet,` in God`s word is God`s voice. It only relates to what God says is His symbol & of course the context. Let`s look at another symbol to see what I mean.
We know David by the Spirit says -`The Lord is my rock & my fortress & my deliverer.` (Ps.18: 2)The word `rock,` here is clearly a symbol for God`s strength, stability & safety. But when we read -`Lead me to the rock that is higher than I.` (Ps. 61: 2)we aren`t told that the Lord is the rock. However we know by context that it is speaking of the Lord & as David has used that symbol previously it makes sense.
Thus when we read about `like a trumpet,` in Rev. 4:1 we know it is God`s voice speaking, saying `Come up here.`The word `trumpet,` in the Greek, `salpigz,` means `a vibration, wave, through the idea of quavering or reverberation.`Thus in the other scripture you mentioned -
`For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, & with the trumpet of God:` (1 Thess. 4: 16)
we read of the Lord`s shout. Shout, from the Greek words `Keleuma` & `keleuo.` meaning cry of excitement, to urge on, to incite by word, give a command. So we see that the Lord Jesus Christ is urging/commanding the believers to come together with Him in the air, & the voice of the archangel, & the `vibrating sounds` of God the Father`s voice in the spiritual realm opens the way.
And although it is written as the word `trumpet, or vibrating sounds` we know by its context & also by God`s use of that symbol that it is God the Father`s voice. For it is only God`s voice, His command than enables us to enter the heavenly realm.
Whereas in Exodus 19: 13 we see clearly that the trumpet, ram`s horn is just that, the actual instrument. So it is not every trumpet or every rock etc, but only in relation to the context & if God has used that object for a symbol.
Hope that explains what I mean.
Marilyn C
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| Re: Manchild rapture wrong?? [message #10212 is a reply to message #10210] |
Tue, 05 November 2013 04:44 |
Marilyn Crow
Messages: 598
Registered: September 2013
Location: Australia |
Senior Member |
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Hi Jman,
I just noticed you had another query regarding the resurrection of the dead.
Jesus said, " Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming in which all who are in the tombs shall hear His voice, & shall come forth;...." (John 5: 28)
So you see, Jman, it is the voice of God that calls forth the dead. Who else would have the power to do that.
Marilyn C
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