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| Who Is Israel? [message #5958] |
Sun, 12 July 2009 02:59  |
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 GWB
Messages: 708
Registered: March 2008
Location: Louisville, Ky area |
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Hey Folks!
I have been blessed by all of the posts lately. I have been very busy helping my daughter with her second child. Whew!
The Lord has been dealing with me about really knowing Him at His return; to REALLY know Him.
I will overcome in all things and go up in the first fruits rapture in Jesus Name. We won't be here to see the reaction to our not being in this forum one day!
Because of His soon return, and the condition of my heart as being vital to me lately, I have been in Revelation.
Revelation 12 speaks of "the woman." I went over the Revelation tapes recently. He says that the woman is believed to be Israel. He also believed that the woman would be birthed out of the church. Correct me on any of this if I am wrong or confused.
Question: If we have been grafted (graffed?) into the vine of Abraham, why aren't believers considered Israel? Why aren't overcomers considered Israel? I don't get it.
There is an old and new covenant; OT, NT. The early church was Israel. Could this be why most of us at OO have such a problem with "the church?" Please know that I do believe there are believers in the system, even Catholics. I also believe what we were taught at FA about pagan holidays and idols, etc. The system can used of God, just like anything else, if He needs to reach someone.
If we are Israel, to me, Rev. 12 is a lot more clear to me. There is revival among the Jewish people; 400 recently in NYC. I give to Jewish Voice Ministries and that is where I hear about the Jewish people. My mom loves Israel and that love was passed on to me. I love Dr. Freeman for teaching us so much about her as a nation and her people.
Any help or comments would be very much appreciated. I have a break tonight, so I get to post something! Like I said, if I am way off on a tangent, let me know and explain it to me.
Blessings,
GWB
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| Re: Who Is Israel? [message #5960 is a reply to message #5958] |
Tue, 14 July 2009 02:08  |
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william
Messages: 1464
Registered: January 2006 |
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Administrator |
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Hi GWB,
I've been busy dealing with a computer crash so pardon the tardiness in responding.
Revelation 12 was one of the first teachings I ever heard as a new believer and it seemed to me to be a kind of road-map that helped me to understand the unfolding of end-time events.
All of the commentaries that I've ever read interpret the woman to be Israel with Jesus as the manchild. There are a number of reasons why this interpretation doesn't fit with the details of the prophecy... I think the Deeper Life book deals with some of those issues.
Brother Freeman believed that the woman was the Church (not Israel) and the the manchild was a group of believers who were being prepared/matured for the eventual birth resulting in the "catching away", or as we call it, the rapture. Those being prepared represent the overcomers in this scenario.
If the woman does indeed represent the Church,
...and if the Church (as a whole) isn't really ready yet to meet the Bride Groom,
...and if there is indeed an element of the Church that the Lord is preparing to be ready for His appearing,
...and if this element of the Church is the manchild,
...and if the catching away of the manchild represents the rapture,
...and if the Church (the woman) needs a little more time to "make herself ready",
...then a brief stint of three and one half years in the wilderness, in the midst of tribulation, learning to trust Him for everything (it took Israel 40 years and even then most did not make it...) might be exactly what the passage means.
There is a third group mentioned in Revelation twelve; this group doesn't get too much attention: --And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. It would seem that this group might represent Israel, but other interpretations are possible... e.g. maybe this group are those who think they are overcomers... you know, those not associated with any Church(woman/mother)... those Elijah's who are hiding in caves thinking that they are the only ones... Yep, they could be us! <grin> (Remember Elijah got a personal taxi ride when that chariot swung low!)
Blessings,
William
[Updated on: Tue, 14 July 2009 02:27]
I want to believe!
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| Re: Who Is Israel? [message #5972 is a reply to message #5960] |
Sun, 19 July 2009 21:44 |
jisamazed
Messages: 170
Registered: January 2008
Location: Grand Rapids, MI |
Senior Member |
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The book of Revelation is meant to exalt Christ. It gives us a glimpse of what is going on in the heavenly realms while certain events are going on in the earth. His people fight and struggle and endure hardship in the cosmic war against the enemy, but they overcome him by the blood of the lamb, the word of their testimony, and love not their lives unto death. (NOTE: Being an overcomer means you need to be prepared to die for Jesus.) In the end, He wins. We have to read it in light of that message.
There are several different explanations for that passage:
1. Woman= Jewish nation Manchild= True Christians seed= those who are saved afterward
2. Woman= Jewish nation Manchild= saved Jews at the time of Christ's return seed= Jews who get saved later
3. Woman= True Christians Manchild= special Christians seed= other unspecified Christians
4. Woman= True Christians Manchild= special Christians seed= Jewish nation
5. Woman= the false church Manchild= true believers seed= those saved later out of the false church
6. Woman= pagan religions Manchild= church seed= those who are saved later
7. Woman= Mary Manchild= Jesus seed= church
8. All 3 represent unknown entitites that we are not yet aware of.
9. Per the standard for apocalyptic literature, the vision is not meant to be exact allegory, and simply is meant to depict the war in general that goes on between the saints and the devil and his own.
10. The passage was only meant to address the immediate situation involving Roman persecution of the Jews.
11. Other bizarre explanations that are not worth mentioning specifically.
9-11 are not plausible and can be dismissed out of hand, although #9 advocates accurately point out the fact that oftentimes we read too much into allegory. However, the Lord gave details to this vision for a reason, and we should not disregard the specifics in this passage.
1-5 are all plausible, IMO, and each have some weaknesses. There is no seal-proof interpretation of this passage. I personally think that #1 has the strongest case. However, I am not going to base my theology on any single one, because other passages in scriptures are more clear about the rapture, and when teaching theology we have to start with the clearest passages and interpret the other scriptures in light of them.
6 might seem to be odd, but it can be pointed out that the description of the woman being clothed with the sun, moon under feet and crown of stars on her head is similar to descriptions of pagan female deities at that time. Woodrow, the guy who wrote "Babylon Mystery Religion", put it right on the cover of his book and discussed it in the book, but I don't think he made a connection to this passage. However, #6 does not make sense when applied to the rest of this passage.
7 has been advocated by various preachers, including David Wilkerson. It is hard to believe that Mary would be described the way that she was in the passage, however, being clothed with the sun, etc...
8 is also plausible, IMO, but if the groups being depicted have yet to be formed or identified, they would all have to be Christ-exalting groups per verses 5, 11 and 17. Such an explanation seems to be a stretch when compared to pattern of the rest of Revelation, which depicts the saints as one group and not many.
I could get my scalpel out and get into more detail on each explanation and do an exposition, but I haven't the time or wherewithall to do so today. However, I would be interested to see what you come up with when you try to apply each explanation to the passage to see which one fits best.
[Updated on: Sun, 19 July 2009 21:45]
Amazed smitten astonished stunned floored blown away astounded shocked flabbergasted surprised wonderfully devastated awed shattered overwhelmed incredulous speechless sense of wonder at the love of God.
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| Re: Who Is Israel? [message #5973 is a reply to message #5972] |
Mon, 20 July 2009 00:53 |
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GWB
Messages: 708
Registered: March 2008
Location: Louisville, Ky area |
Senior Member |
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Good info Jiz! Thanks for all of the many different sides to this. Like I said, it is so neat to have all of this at my fingertips.
I like #1. However, there is a twist to my opinion and it is different from what we were taught at FA.
I want to know who you all think Israel is. Is it the state (nation)? I don't believe so. When the Word was written, Israel was not a nation, but a group of people. Israel did not become a state until 1948. Also, we had a NT church at FA. The NT believers were Jewish and gentiles were considered Jewish in the NT when they became believers. What is the difference from the NT and today? When you become a believer today, why are new believers suddenly considered part of the church system that some of us grapple with here at OO?   Lately, if I think in terms of seeing myself as Israel, I see everything much more clearly.
So...If we are grafted into the vine of Abraham, I am leaning towards believing that all believers are Israel. This is not the replacement theology garbage that is out there. There are blood born Jews who love Jesus (Yeshua, sp?), wheat and not tares in the church who love Jesus, and people like some of us! 
When I look at Rev. 12 from this perspective, it makes more sense to me.
All comments, disagreements, and other views are welcome.
Also, I still can't figure out where Dr. Freeman got the two groups of 144,000 in scripture. I am not saying he is wrong and I am right on all of this. It is just something I have been trying to hammer out and get more clear due to the times we are in right now.
Here is why #1 is the best possibility to me:
Woman=Jewish group of people (all believers). Some will overcome and be taken up as the first fruits from this entire group of people.
True Christians seed=Jewish group (all believers) of people who did not have their oil lamps full and did not overcome=
Those who were not ready and need to be purified during Tribulation, as Dr. Freeman puts it, and those who get saved in tribulation.
Am I totally off the wall here? If I am, at least I am making you all exercise your end time muscles.
Blessings,
GWB
[Updated on: Mon, 20 July 2009 17:53]
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| Re: Who Is Israel? [message #5976 is a reply to message #5973] |
Wed, 22 July 2009 05:07 |
jisamazed
Messages: 170
Registered: January 2008
Location: Grand Rapids, MI |
Senior Member |
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| GWB wrote on Sun, 19 July 2009 19:53 |
Good info Jiz! Thanks for all of the many different sides to this. Like I said, it is so neat to have all of this at my fingertips.
I like #1. However, there is a twist to my opinion and it is different from what we were taught at FA.
I want to know who you all think Israel is. Is it the state (nation)? I don't believe so. When the Word was written, Israel was not a nation, but a group of people. Israel did not become a state until 1948. Also, we had a NT church at FA. The NT believers were Jewish and gentiles were considered Jewish in the NT when they became believers. What is the difference from the NT and today? When you become a believer today, why are new believers suddenly considered part of the church system that some of us grapple with here at OO? Lately, if I think in terms of seeing myself as Israel, I see everything much more clearly.
So...If we are grafted into the vine of Abraham, I am leaning towards believing that all believers are Israel. This is not the replacement theology garbage that is out there. There are blood born Jews who love Jesus (Yeshua, sp?), wheat and not tares in the church who love Jesus, and people like some of us!
When I look at Rev. 12 from this perspective, it makes more sense to me.
All comments, disagreements, and other views are welcome.
Also, I still can't figure out where Dr. Freeman got the two groups of 144,000 in scripture. I am not saying he is wrong and I am right on all of this. It is just something I have been trying to hammer out and get more clear due to the times we are in right now.
Here is why #1 is the best possibility to me:
Woman=Jewish group of people (all believers). Some will overcome and be taken up as the first fruits from this entire group of people.
True Christians seed=Jewish group (all believers) of people who did not have their oil lamps full and did not overcome=
Those who were not ready and need to be purified during Tribulation, as Dr. Freeman puts it, and those who get saved in tribulation.
Am I totally off the wall here? If I am, at least I am making you all exercise your end time muscles.
Blessings,
GWB
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Hmmmm. Interesting slant on that one. You bring out some good points. Some thoughts:
You seem to be advocating position #3 or #5 more than #1 when you boil it down.
I'm not sure that FA was more of a NT church than any other "denominational" church. FA was its own denomination. It got some things right that many other churches got wrong. It got some things wrong that many other churches got right. In some ways it was still a part of the "church system" despite teachers' claims to the contrary.
Even though you say that you don't believe "replacement theology", you seem to be inadvertantly advancing a version of it. I will explain:
The relationship between Israel and the church is confusing for a lot of people. It has been for me for a long time. However, I have been able to wrap my head around it when I look at it in light of covenant.
There are two covenants, an older and newer. There are two groups that can be called the covenant people of God-- 1) the seed of Abraham according to the flesh, which are the biological descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Jewish nation) 2) the seed of Abraham according to the spirit, those who are justified by faith in the Messiah (Gal 3:29). Both are the covenant people of God. Believing Jews take part in both covenants. Gentiles who believe in the Messiah are grafted into the new covenant prophesied in Jeremiah 31:33-34. See Romans 11:17-24. Romans 9-11 addresses this issue at length.(By the way, when you read that passage as a whole, you get a better understanding of what Paul means by the "message of faith, which we preach." It's nothing like our contemporary charismatic concept of the term). Thus the two Israels overlap, but are not synonymous. They coexist, and the one does not completely replace the other. Some promises to Israel in the flesh still have to be fulfilled regarding possession of the land. The Lord still wants them to be saved by trusting the redeeming work of the Messiah, thus becoming a part of Israel according to the Spirit.
If we interpret the woman of Revelation 12 as representing the biological descendants of Abraham, we are talking about Israel according to the flesh. The manchild would be Israel according to the spirit, those who have been grafted into the new covenant by faith. The "remnant of her seed" would be others who had identified themselves as Christians, but did not have saving faith until after the manchild was gone.
As I mentioned, no interpretation of this particular passage is seal-proof, and there are weaknesses in this one, too. But IMO it has less weaknesses than the other explanations.
Amazed smitten astonished stunned floored blown away astounded shocked flabbergasted surprised wonderfully devastated awed shattered overwhelmed incredulous speechless sense of wonder at the love of God.
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| Re: Who Is Israel? [message #6123 is a reply to message #5979] |
Tue, 13 October 2009 14:50 |
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GWB
Messages: 708
Registered: March 2008
Location: Louisville, Ky area |
Senior Member |
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Those who were not ready and need to be purified during Tribulation, as Dr. Freeman puts it, and those who get saved in tribulation.
GWB Sunday 19 July, 2009 post
Hey Folks,
I always thought the word "purified" was from Dr. Freeman when describing the Tribulation period. Not so.
"Many shall be purified, made white, and refined, but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand." Daniel 12:10
To me, this hits it home even more concerning overcoming now. I believe James is dealing with this, as of late, in another thread.
It is a good thing to be under conviction....and I am under it in many areas. He is faithful to finish the good work He started in me.
Blessings,
GWB
[Updated on: Tue, 13 October 2009 15:11]
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