| Dr. Freeman and Faith Assembly [message #14198] |
Sat, 28 December 2024 00:31  |
 Mark L
Messages: 865
Registered: October 2006
Location: Canada |
Senior Member |
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Dr. Freeman and Faith Assembly
There are a series of podcasts going on right now on youtube concerning Dr. Freeman,(HEF) and Faith Assembly, (FA) As well as some of the other ministry and satellite churches.
There are links to everything at the bottom of the page.
First there needs to be something of a explanation of the site that is hosting the podcasts.
The site is called "Leaving the Message"
"Leaving the message is a podcast intended to help people who have been influenced by the ministries of William Branham, his successors, or destructive religious groups that formed as a result of William Branham's ministry and revival meetings"
He has put together a great deal of info showing Branham to be a liar, fraud and deceiver. After reviewing it I have to reluctantly agree with him. For myself I am not sure where the supernatural element comes into on issues relating to Branham. The site also has much info on his connections to and influence on the men that surrounded him. I haven't really looked so I'm not sure if his conclusions are entirely accurate. The site also has a lot of info on much of the modern charismatic scene.
Just to clarify the paragraphs above concern the host of the podcasts John Collins. Everything below here other than one comment is in response to Chino Ross.
The bro. doing the podcasts was part of the faith message in his teens and later walked away. He has spent the last 40 yrs or so documenting issues with FA. He has amassed a great deal of info. His starting point is FA was a cult and HEF the cult leader. That colors everything he says. Right from the start I wondered if he was listening to the same Hobart Freeman I was. There are constant allusions in both the podcast and the comments to HEF taking material from other men and presenting it as his own. That some of his books were copied from others. And much more of that nature. My only response is that if you see him as a cult leader that will color everything you see. To the pure all things are pure. The opposite is true as well.
This is a quote in response to one of the comments . . .
. . . the forked-tongue, isolationist, authoritarian, low-level scholarship that Hobart did
This is a paraphrase . . .
HEF wasn't overly interested in money and we never heard about sexual issues so his interest as a cult leader had to have been the power.
This was a statement made many times paraphrasing . . .
He was an ego maniac interested only in power
The statements above really sum up his opinion of HEF and his ministry. He says that one way or another all through his podcasts.
Let me state my bias right off the bat. I think Dr. Freeman was a man of God who in spite of his faults stood head and shoulders above his generation of christian leaders. I am so thankful for the foundation of truth laid by the Holy Spirit in my life through his ministry.
This post is intended as something of a defence of HEF and the message he preached. As well as to provide some context. I'm going to give my thoughts on his ministry good and bad as well as what I see were problems that were evident in FA and the satellite groups. I also have a conclusion you might find interesting.
The podcaster is entitled to his facts and opinions. Not all of which are wrong. Other than a few egs I do not intend to do much in the way of response. I am going to post my opinions and the facts as I know them and my sources.
This is a very very long post. I apologize in advance. I tried to keep it only to issues that I thought were important and relevant. It was difficult to do as there is much talked about on the podcasts.
HEF was a first rate academic. An earned PHD. A book that over 50 yrs later is still in use by seminaries all over the world. If his academic credentials weren't solid it would have been noticed by now. He carried those study and research skills into his role as pastor and teacher.
Upon receiving the Baptism of the Holy Spirit he began learning reading and attending seminars. With the kind of intelligence and attention to detail he exhibited as an academic he researched all the charismatic issues. Looked at all the teaching and its origins and beliefs and with characteristic thoroughness came to his own conclusions of biblical truth. He made the point himself that we are all products of those who went before us. If some of his teaching originated with some who turned out to be less than men of God is that a reflection on him? He took charismatic teaching studied for himself and stayed with what he believed was biblicaly sound.
It is stated in the podcasts that HEF in his sermons referred to Branham often and that he was strongly influenced by him. A good eg of that is the allegation that HEF's view of God's triunity is not only theologically wrong but was influenced by Branham's oneness beliefs. (see podcast # 125) Another point made I think by the host (John Collins) was that HEF was firmly in the latter rain orbit. Meaning he was strongly influenced by their teachings. You can read my opinion of both those inferences in the paragraph above this one.
There were allegations in the comments he plagiarized material for his Masters and PHD thesis. That he plagiarized material for some of his books? A point the podcaster more or less agreed with. We're told his teaching in the charismatic school was one sided and sloppy. That some of his material was taken from other academics and presented as his own research. And on and on and on . . .
I'm not going to comment on any of that and much more like it. Except to say if you see him as a cult leader it will colour everything you think.
There is a very good explanation posted about HEF and his ministry on Youtube. The bro there is posting all HEF's sermons. If you haven't seen it read the introduction right below the message. It is a very good explanation of where we all came from.
https://tinyurl.com/radio-tapes
Some of the info I have on HEF came directly from Joe Brennamen. Joe took over running Faith Ministries for Mrs Freeman after the other bro left. He also took over as pastor of FA when Steve Hill left and started a new church. Joe saw a lot of Mrs. Freeman and received a lot of info from her. According to Joe there was a lot going on in the background between Joe, Mrs. Freeman and Steve prior to the starting of the new church.
Issues relating to Dr. Freeman's Death
I have posted some of the info I have before on O/O. In the interest of completeness
and as I'm not sure who is going to be reading this I'm posting it again. Some of what I have to say here about the whys and wherefores of Freeman's life and death are my opinion. Where I have facts I state them. To say there were rumours gossip misinformation and some outright lying after his death would be understating the matter by orders of magnitude. Rumours and more would of course be expected.
The media articles on his death had info that could only have come from an insider. Someone that had and probably has an obvious agenda. Where it concerns Dr. Freeman the media is incapable of telling the truth. Lies misrepresentations falsifies exaggerations. No facts? That's fine; we'll just make some up. They poured it out for years. Why would they change just because he died? They are motivated by the father of lies who hated both him and his message. All can believe what you want but if it came from the media one ought to be a little more discerning.
Here are what I know to be the facts of HEF's death. I received this info directly from Joe Brenneman. He went to the office that kept the records and asked for a copy of HEF's autopsy. He was told only family is allowed a copy. The women behind the counter read the info off for him. She said HEF died because his heart stopped beating. There was no other cause of death and there was nothing physically wrong with him.
Why did he die then if nothing wrong with him?
Here is where you get my opinions. From HEF's side he died because he wanted to go. Lying there on his bed thinking over his life looking at the road ahead and didn't like what he saw. He had everything he wanted in the material realm. More or less the same in the spiritual realm. Thousands worldwide hanging on and looking up to him. Legal authorities (rightly or wrongly) out to get him. Media persecution. (sorry no other word for it) No one in the christian world standing with him. Looking down his road ahead and seeing nothing but more of the same and getting worse. I believe from deep in his
heart he bypassed his own stubborn personality and cried out to the Lord. The Lord for his own reasons accommodated that and took him home.
So why did God take him home?
Again here is my opinion. I believe it was because his work here on earth was done. I think HEF's life from birth to death, his personality, the trials of his life forming his character, his ministry (from Gods side) were all for one single purpose. That being to lay the foundation for the preparing of the overcomers. A work not even started yet. Please don't bog down on overcomers as I have a note on that further down.
A deathbed confession.
This was said by the bro on his podcast. That there was a deathbed confession by HEF. Nothing was said beyond that statement. We're told there is more info to follow. That had to have come from an insider. Someone who had and probably has an agenda. I find it very difficult to believe. Character in a person is formed through the trails and difficulties and hard decisions in ones life. HEF detailed the trials he had growing up. The years in college where he stood alone. The serious trials he walked out as a charismatic minister. And more. I find it hard to believe that at the end of his life with the stubborn personality he had and the kind of character formed within him he just walked away from it. If he had died a broken man then I could see a deathbed confession. But he didn't. He died the same man he was all through the ministry years.
The last very serious heart attack
The very serious heart attack he suffered near the end of his life. I believe it was witchcraft sent against him by Satanists probably out of Kentucky. They called up something very big out of the pit on the basis of a serious occult ritual. They must have been absolutely astounded when he completely overcame it. From Gods side he allowed it because the result was a deepening of his faith and spiritual life. From their side of course it was the deep hatred they had for him.
There were several thousand people who were there the night he had to be helped into the pulpit following that massive heart attack. The same several thousand must have seen him get better in the weeks following. Yet we're told he died of heart disease among other issues. That defies common sense. If he had enough faith to overcome and recover from the heart attack then why would he be dying with heart disease and more the media told us he died of. He said himself following that trial that it had pushed him into a much deeper realm of faith.
The trial he went through with the hole in his foot.
This info came to me directly from Joe Brenneman who got it from Mrs. Freeman. Over the course of his ministry HEF accumulated a lot of material on occult and psychic matters. Books magazines etc. It was all kept in a locked room in his house. He was eventually convicted by the Holy Spirit about it and removed them. Deut. 7/26
Here is where you get my opinion
I think the entire trial with his foot was the result of not taking heed to God's word. Deut. 7/26 God is no respecter of persons. When he removed that material his leg was healed. As I said earlier there was nothing wrong with him when he died. He died the same way he lived trusting the Lord and walking by faith.
This is also an issue I have experience with. I sometimes read material of that nature and I am very careful not to keep it in my house. I keep it out bring it in to read then back out again. I had to learn the hard way just like HEF did.
Thoughts concerning the faith message
I'm not going to say a lot here. If the scriptures don't move you then nothing I say will.
1 Tim.1/5 The end (or goal) of the commandment (or teaching) is love out of a pure heart of a good conscience and of faith unfeigned.
If these three things are not the bedrock teaching of the church you're a part of you might want to ask why.
I Thess.3/1-7 Paul was so concerned about their faith he sent Timothy to find out if they were standing in it or if they had been seduced out.
Heb. 11/5 Enock was raptured by faith!
Do you see the rapture coming? Expect to be a part of it? You can read my view on the bible issues page here on O/O
The message he taught of total trust in and faith toward God is what God has given to enable to get us through all that is coming. Matt. 24 and end time events are being held back right now. We are in the time "the bridegroom has delayed his coming" Matt 25/5 For an extensive detailed look at that see the eschatology page here on O/O
HEF was a flawed man with clay feet just like everyone else. Doing the best he could with what he had and who he was. Almost from the beginning FA and Freeman had a steep learning curve to navigate. On the faith questions he/they more or less stood alone in the christian world and had to learn much for themselves. For all practical purposes there was no one to ask advice from.
He had a strong faith in his own abilities and his own understanding. Perhaps from having to stand alone so much in his life. I think he would have benefited greatly from regular meetings with all or most of the FA ministers. People could speak their minds, hash out issues, discuss problems. In some respects he was unaware of what was going on in his own church.
HEF being a pastor.
He never should have been a pastor as he didn't have the personality for it. To be a pastor one has to be in and among the people. In the early years when starting his ministry he preached at home and out 8 times a week. Then came home to return phone calls church issues books to write. When would he have time to pastor the church? Spend time with his family or even himself.
Pastor under pastors
Pastors don't have pastors under them. I have thought for a long time that the meetings that were overseen by ministers out of FA were really robbed of having a pastor. What they had was a teacher. Its not the same.
The haste to get ready.
I think this was one of the big causes for some of the problems in the assembly. HEF had a deep belief that time was short and we all needed to get ready. That showed up in almost everything he taught. The fact that 40 yrs have gone since his passing shows that not only was he wrong but also God doesn't do things on our timetable. His teaching of endtime ministry came out of a very strong vision God gave him. We would be caught up to the clouds and changed. Then come back and minister to this groaning creation. After the faith message it was probably the strongest teaching in his ministry. It really coloured much of what he believed. My opinion? I'm focused on the rapture, If there is more then great but I'm not overly concerned about it.
Issues in relation to deliverance.
HEF had a worldwide reputation on the issues of deliverance and occult oppression. Tracts on the subject by the millions. His book widely read. The Billy Graham Association (hardly a group of wild eyed charismatics) on coming across serious deliverance issues would send the person to Hobart Freeman. He was a recognized expert on occult deliverance.
HEF's ministerial office?
He didn't have the office to do the job so many expected him to do. Meaning for all practical purposes overseeing pastors/teachers and churches. As well as his own. He said in a letter to my father that he didn't have the office to oversee other churches.
Bruce Kinsey.
There were two podcasts concerning Bruce Kinsey as well as more info later on. He was held in high regard as the tremendous outpouring of love and affection showed when we heard he was dying. His first child was born less than normal (deformed) and died shortly after. According to Dr. Freeman because of that he let a spirit of fear into his life. I think the issues over the ban on hunting and clothing (jeans) played a part in his leaving as well. Bruce walked away from the Lord after he left FA. That tells me there was more going on in his heart then simple objections to some of the teaching. No one walks away from the Lord over night. That was a long downward slide in Bruce's life. It was good to hear he came back to the Lord and was in fellowship with the Lord when he died. Bruce breaking with FA and HEF for principled reasons is simply not correct. There was further info given on Bruce in a later podcast.
Peer Pressure
There was a serious problem with peer pressure. Why should people who aren't ready or able to believe for healing have to sneak around just to get help? What does someone do with a child in a serious trial and they can't overcome the fear? Why do they have to sneak around to get help when they aren't spiritually where others are. There wasn't really any place for some to admit they needed help. Nor really any place to fail. Women with strong postpartum depression for eg. There was strong pressure to always be positive. Everything isn't deliverance or healing. Some are just natural.
In many respects I think the church was just too big.
Even with a plurality of elders in the assembly and associate pastors. Hind sight is obviously 2020. But small churches overseen by pastors can keep an eye on their people. A church that size it would be easy for some to fall through the cracks. As I said earlier no real pastors just teachers.
Some of FA's ministers simply didn't have a supernatural gift or calling to be a 5F minister. Education knowledge and even seminary education simply isn't enough. To do the job one has to have the 5F gift of the Holy Spirit. I know of 3 men at FA including one senior minister.
A prophet who could do no wrong
To some HEF was a cult leader to others a prophet who can do no wrong. I think he was just a flawed man like all the rest of us raised up for a particular purpose. It became a major problem though with the way he was lifted up. People hanging on every word. There are many who believe he was taken because of the way he was looked up to. I would disagree but idol worship sure was a problem.
The closed in nature of the movement.
Much of the reason for that was the opposition from outside. The stronger it got the more closed in we became. The lies and slander from the media were also a big part of that.
Love and Wisdom
I didn't find there was a lot of love. Especially towards the end. The attitude often was; its your trial brother. Then people would walk away. I saw it happen. I heard about it and maybe my fault as well. In some respects there wasn't a lot of wisdom either. The death of Carl Seitz would be a good eg. Going into a coma means it has gone beyond your faith. In a small church with a pastor that would have been noticed.
Some further thoughts.
In light of the size of FA and adding in all the satellite churches would we be surprised to find there were problems. That mistakes were made? That some died?
Some tried faith. Maybe because of peer pressure. There was a constant admonition from the pulpit to be sure of the ground you're standing on. To be sure it is faith. Some obviously didn't take heed. Or didn't understand.
Some were tares. They would be trouble of all kinds right from the start.
Some just jumped in without understanding what they were getting into and then getting into trouble. Parable of the sower.
Here are some of the issues brought up by the bro on some of the podcasts.
I'm not giving a response to everything he said. Besides as I said earlier he's not wrong about everything. I'm highlighting these few as HEF's positions here were greatly misrepresented.
HEF was not qualified and did not have the training to give some of his teaching. Particularly on family issues.
My response? Some of that teaching was done in the charismatic school as part of an ethics course. The bible also speaks to family issues and ministers should as well.
Deeper deliverance was psychobabble and he didn't have the training for that either.
My response? The subject was not psychology. The subject was deliverance and he was well qualified to speak on that.
A prohibition on dating.
My response? The teaching actually was young people should go out in groups. Those of marriageable age upon settling on a mate should engage in a period of courtship to get to know one another.
A prohibition on foreplay. That was the word he used.
My response? The teaching he is referring to was that married couples should not engage in oral sex, anal sex (yuck) and mutual masturbation as an end in itself. Those are homosexual practices. To slightly expand on foreplay anyone with half a brain and a tiny bit of knowledge would understand that "wham bam thank you ma'am" only goes so far in a marriage relationship. Sorry for the worldly phrase. HEF was a normal man with normal desires. In all likelihood a normal marriage relationship.
Sex was to be for procreative purposes only and only at those times and for that purpose.
My response? I really don't know where this came from. I think it is rather silly. The teaching was that married couples should trust the Lord for the size of their family. Intimacy in marriage is the very expression of the marriage. It deepens commitment and love. Besides all that it is enjoyable. Many other benefits as well. The bible speaks to that issue in a number of places. HEF at times made comments to that effect including some very oblique personal comments. So I'm sure HEF understood that clearly.
A prohibition on birth control
My response? Again the teaching was families should put their trust in God. One main point here is HEF pointing out the studies showing the deleterious side effects of the pill.
Overcomers?
What are they? Are they an elite group like army rangers or green berets? Super humans that will rule the heavens and earth? Well here is my opinion. I think endtime events and persecution will greatly increase in the near future. The Holy Spirit will then begin a purifying work in his people. No one will be raptured who isn't walking in faith like Elijah and pleasing to God like Enoch. Those who are ready at the beginning of the trib. will be raptured. HEF called them overcomers. The rest of the church hidden away while the Holy Spirit continues to do a purifying work in them. Then raptured as the work is done.
My conclusions.
Like Bro. Freeman I believe we are in the endtimes. Specifically "the time the bridegroom has delayed his coming. Matt 25 especially vs 5. Endtime events are being held back right now but are going to start moving ahead. The faith message is what God has given to enable us to get through all that is coming. For an extensive detailed look at my thoughts on the subject look at the eschatology page here on O/O.
Are you wondering about the faith message? Was it from the Lord? Was Bro Freeman a true man of God? Was his teaching and the faith message from the Lord? I can give you a surefire guaranteed never known to fail way to find out for yourself. You don't have to look to anything except your own heart.
John 10/3, 14-15, 27 really the whole chapter
My sheep hear my voice. If you want to know the truth for yourself. Then listen to some of HEF's sermons. On any subject. If HEF was a man of God then you will be able to hear the voice of the shepherd through his teaching. Listen to more than 1 or 2. If long messages are an issue then listen to the radio tapes. They're only 10-13 min long.
Jesus said my yoke is easy and my burden is light . . . Listen to some of the radio tapes.
Finally I think it is passing strange that someone has circled HEF and FA for the last 40 plus years. Has all the info and knows everyone. Listened to all the teaching. Dated and in some cases time stamped parts of messages. Has heard the good and the bad. Talked to many of the 5F. His attention was directed to HEF and FA on occasion. Has detailed information on stuff most of us knew very little about. Information just seemed to fall into his lap. To my mind it is obvious there is something or someone standing behind the man seeing to it he has all the info necessary for these podcasts. Was it the Lord exposing a cult? Or do you think like I do that there is coming a revival or renewal of the faith message. The point of which is to enable the church to get through the dark days that are coming. We'll simply all have to make up our own minds.
Here are some links.
All HEF's messages are being posted on Youtube. If you haven't done so read the introduction as it is very clear and well written.
https://tinyurl.com/Radio-HEF
Here is the first podcast of the series. If you want to listen to all of them follow the playlist from the lowest number.
https://tinyurl.com/Chino-Ross
Here is the info on Branham
https://william-branham.org/
https://www.youtube.com/@LeavingtheMessage
As stated above
If you're interested in my view of the rapture check out the post on the Bible issues page
If you're interested in my extensive detailed thoughts on "The bridegroom delaying his coming Matt. 25/5 see the eschatology page here on O/O.
[Updated on: Sat, 28 December 2024 03:26]
You can read
"Meanderings on Scripture by Mark
https://mlederman.substack.com/
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| Re: Dr. Freeman and Faith Assembly [message #14200 is a reply to message #14199] |
Sun, 29 December 2024 12:55  |
Ron S
Messages: 25
Registered: November 2023
Location: Van Wert,Ohio |
Junior Member |
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Thanks Mark, Amen !
I ran across that YouTube site a couple weeks ago, after a few minutes into the video I decided,it would be more edifying to read my Bible and lesson to
Dr Freeman teachings that have been posted on the other site. I know Faith Assembly/Glory Barn/Hobart and all the 5 Fold ministers weren't perfect and
they and We have are Flaws, and they and We made mistakes.......lots of them !
But Brother Freemans teaching are still some of the best out there and they are free.
Blessing
For God has not given us a spirit of fear,but of power and of love and of a sound mind.
2 Timothy 1:7
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| Re: Dr. Freeman and Faith Assembly [message #14204 is a reply to message #14201] |
Sun, 19 January 2025 20:42 |
Mark L
Messages: 865
Registered: October 2006
Location: Canada |
Senior Member |
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For those who are watching the podcasts mentioned above be very careful not to let a spirit of fear come against you. The podcasts sound like a couple of friends talking over the issues. I think though they are very carefully thoughtfully and intelligently put together to further the one issue. That being it was a cult and Dr. Freeman was a cult leader.
Also I have great difficulty with some of the info being presented.
Were there 5/F ministers who . . .
wouldn't take their wife (in childbirth) when requested to the hospital for help
wouldn't allow a member who went to the hospital for help to rejoin the church. It took intercession from another member to allow them back in.
and lots more besides
I think both eg's were satellite groups. I'm not arguing with his facts. I am however going to give my general opinion. I cannot believe that either of those egs and lots more would have been condoned by any of the leadership. In or out of Faith Assembly. Senior leader or not. Both those issues and lots more flies directly in the face of everything I ever learned from the ministry there.
My point here though is to be careful not to allow a spirit of fear to come in.
You can read
"Meanderings on Scripture by Mark
https://mlederman.substack.com/
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