Home » Theological Doctrine » Eschatology » The Super Powers
| Re: The Super Powers [message #10093 is a reply to message #10092] |
Wed, 30 October 2013 06:00   |
 Marilyn Crow
Messages: 598
Registered: September 2013
Location: Australia |
Senior Member |
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Hi William,
I certainly would not want to cause you to have high blood pressure!!!!!
And yes it was from that `link,` that you gave that I got all those quotes (cut & paste) as I said.
Now you said -
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`In the above quote you do the same thing. "TRUTH: GOD'S WORD..." and then say that the verse is "...clearly identifiable as a Political power."
If I wanted to argue with you (which I don't) I think that I could make a pretty good case for this being more religious than political what with all the "worship" going on in the following verses.
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Yes it is Political power (horns, diadems/crowns) - the Final Gentile world system & the leader of it. The False Prophet is the leader of the Economic system & also the religious system. If you`d note from God`s word the `scarlet woman,` the religious system, rides on the beast`s back. She eventually gets `burned` & destroyed by the Political system (of 10 kings). So you see she, the religious aspect is not the Political beast.
`I will tell you the mystery of the woman, & of the beast that carries her....` `the ten horns which you saw, & the beast, these will hate the harlot & will make her desolate & naked, & will eat her flesh & will burn her up with fire. (Rev. 17: 7, 16)
Then again you say -
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`Now I'm all for a person being confident in his/her interpretations but surely you don't believe that there cannot be other valid interpretations on some of this stuff, do you?
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As I said above if this teaching I was taught has error, or some parts error, then I would certainly be pleased for you or any others to point it out. Our desire is to know God`s truth. Sorry if I come over - over confident or with a wrong attitude, (maybe the teacher in me) But I do find God`s word clear on these matters. And yet you have not given me one point that shows me any error. I have given you the specifics differences (I have been taught)of Rev.2 & Rev. 7 & to have an honest conversation you need to address those.
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`So far I believe that the empirical evidence is overwhelmingly on the side of the traditional interpretation..
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Again you are generalising & not addressing the specifics in scripture. Well I could go on & on & say how great the teaching was I had & you could go on & on the same, but we need to `handle accurately God`s word.`
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`....but you haven't finished and I may learn a thing or two if you continue to post... but please, proceed with the knowledge that I have had a lifetime of people claiming to be speaking for God (proved wrong later) and I'm a bit touchy on that subject.
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Thank you for that opening William & I will try to remember to say `this is what I have been taught...` Does that help?
I still would like you to address those points I made as that is the main scriptural issue. I`ll post them again so you know exactly what I mean.
Daniel 2. (Correction from Rev. - Dan.)
1. There are 5 groups.
2. Each are World Rulers.
3. Each rule came after the other & overcame the previous one.
4. The 5th Ruler (feet & toes, the divided kingdom) will be dealt with by God & all the other kingdoms have fallen.
Daniel 7. (Correction from Rev. - Dan.)
1. There are 4 beasts / powers.
2. Each are powerful but do not rule the world.
3. Each power arises one at a time but are operating at the same time.
4. The last power is dealt with by God but the other powers are allowed to continue for an appointed time. They are not annihilated.
The world recognises these super powers & calls them the Quartet of power. As I have pointed out they control the G7, G8, G20 & the UN. Each have come up after a major world war & they all operate over the world in our time.
[Updated on: Wed, 30 October 2013 21:11]
Marilyn C
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| Re: The Super Powers [message #10094 is a reply to message #10093] |
Wed, 30 October 2013 13:55 |
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william
Messages: 1468
Registered: January 2006 |
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| Marilyn Crow wrote on Wed, 30 October 2013 00:00 |
Hi William,
I certainly would not want to cause you to have high blood pressure!!!!!
And yes it was from that `link,` that you gave that I got all those quotes (cut & paste) as I said.
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No. The link I gave said none of the things you 'cut and pasted.'
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Now you said -
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`In the above quote you do the same thing. "TRUTH: GOD'S WORD..." and then say that the verse is "...clearly identifiable as a Political power."
If I wanted to argue with you (which I don't) I think that I could make a pretty good case for this being more religious than political what with all the "worship" going on in the following verses.
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Yes it is Political power (horns, diadems/crowns) - the Final Gentile world system & the leader of it. The False Prophet is the leader of the Economic system & also the religious system. If you`d note from God`s word the `scarlet woman,` the religious system, rides on the beast`s back. She eventually gets `burned` & destroyed by the Political system (of 10 kings). So you see she, the religious aspect is not the Political beast.
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No. It's more religious (or spiritual if you prefer) and heavy on the worship and signs. Clear as a bell.
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`I will tell you the mystery of the woman, & of the beast that carries her....` `the ten horns which you saw, & the beast, these will hate the harlot & will make her desolate & naked, & will eat her flesh & will burn her up with fire. (Rev. 17: 7, 16)
Then again you say -
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`Now I'm all for a person being confident in his/her interpretations but surely you don't believe that there cannot be other valid interpretations on some of this stuff, do you?
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As I said above if this teaching I was taught has error, or some parts error, then I would certainly be pleased for you or any others to point it out. Our desire is to know God`s truth. Sorry if I come over - over confident or with a wrong attitude, (maybe the teacher in me) But I do find God`s word clear on these matters. And yet you have not given me one point that shows me any error. I have given you the specifics differences (I have been taught)of Rev.2 & Rev. 7 & to have an honest conversation you need to address those.
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An "interpretation" oftentimes contains both truth and error at the same time... otherwise we should call it "doctrine" and if it is "doctrine" (which is the way you are presenting your "interpretation") then it can be dealt with in a "truth" or "error" sort of way.
You interpret the sky as having a reddish hue and I say it has a pinkish hue. Who is in error and who has the truth? Maybe 99% of the population see it as a red and only a handful see pink... does this make the pinkos in error?
You see the iron/clay of Daniel 2 as a fifth kingdom, I see it as an extension of the forth, so who is in error here?
Interpretation is always going to have an element of subjectivity so to keep referring to your interpretation in terms of error and truth is going to force us out of the realm of interpretation and into the realm of doctrine. Once we find ourselves in the realm of doctrine then we can talk "truth" and "error" because a doctrinal truth should not have the elements of subjectivity that apply to the interpretive realm.
Well then, you might say, isn't all doctrine a matter of interpretation? And then I'd be stumped and need to label myself an agnostic! But seriously, can you not see what I'm trying to convey?
Beyond offering an opinion or two on the interpretation of Dan 2 and Dan 7 (which for some strange reason you keep referring to them as Revelation 2 and Revelation 7 --an obvious "error," by the way... <grin>) I really don't want to say that the traditional interpretation is absolute truth anymore than I want to say that your interpretation is absolutely false. Yet you are asking me to spend an inordinate amount of time proving that the sky has a pinkish hue. I don't have the inclination to do that.
As I said earlier, and as Jman and Gary hinted at, the only reason I jumped into this thread is to make a distinction between objective truth and subjective interpretation. I've already said on more than one occasion that I'm enjoying the different perspective that you are bringing into the discussion but I'm hating the way you are presenting it. You present your opinion as gospel fact. In my book, if one disagrees with a gospel fact then they are deceived (which is exactly what you seem to be implying about anyone who disagrees with your take.)
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`So far I believe that the empirical evidence is overwhelmingly on the side of the traditional interpretation..
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Again you are generalising & not addressing the specifics in scripture. Well I could go on & on & say how great the teaching was I had & you could go on & on the same, but we need to `handle accurately God`s word.`
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The "teaching" as you are calling it, is an "interpretation." I have opinions, you have opinions, and the way to 'handle accurately God's word' when it comes to opinions about God's word is to do it the way I've done it and not to do it the way you are doing it.
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I still would like you to address those points I made as that is the main scriptural issue. I`ll post them again so you know exactly what I mean.
Revelation 2.
1. There are 5 groups.
2. Each are World Rulers.
3. Each rule came after the other & overcame the previous one.
4. The 5th Ruler (feet & toes, the divided kingdom) will be dealt with by God & all the other kingdoms have fallen.
Revelation 7.
1. There are 4 beasts / powers.
2. Each are powerful but do not rule the world.
3. Each power arises one at a time but are operating at the same time.
4. The last power is dealt with by God but the other powers are allowed to continue for an appointed time. They are not annihilated.
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Fact: Revelation 2 and Revelation 7 have little to do with Daniel 2 and Daniel 7... you are in error here.
Opinion: Daniel 2 deals with FOUR not FIVE worldly kingdoms and the fifth kingdom is not a kingdom of the world but Christ's kingdom.
Blessings,
William
[Updated on: Wed, 30 October 2013 15:40]
I want to believe!
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| Re: The Super Powers [message #10095 is a reply to message #10094] |
Wed, 30 October 2013 16:27 |
Marilyn Crow
Messages: 598
Registered: September 2013
Location: Australia |
Senior Member |
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Hi William,
Thank you for pointing out the obvious error I had of Rev. instead of Daniel. I have been studying & doing notes from Rev. so sorry for the slip. Also the quotes are from your link are under the page `Identifying the Anti-Christ,` on that site.
Thank you for addressing Daniel 2 in relation to the groups. The difficulty with putting the last two groups together is that there are centuries between the groups & the only thing left of the Roman Empire is Satan`s continuing power over unregenerate mankind. And with that influence, power He can influence any group to come to the fore.
So a short summary of the two `teachings.` (They are taught as a teaching & not a suggestion or a maybe interpretation. They also effect people`s lives & how they see the world.
Dan. 7. Historic View. (& its similar view of other scriptures)
1. Gives no explanation of contemporary powers that rule the world today.
2. Can`t seem to find America is in the Bible.
3. No reality of the Revised Roman Empire on the world scene.
4. This lack of understanding of what God has said about the contemporary powers has led to much confusion & speculation on the Middle Eastern conflicts. Are they leading to the Russian war or Armageddon, is this Ps. 83 etc etc?
Dan. 7. Contemporary View. (& its similar view of other scriptures)
1. Gives a clear picture of the contemporary powers ruling the world today & God`s foreknowledge & plan for them.
2. Gives a clear picture of the origin of America. (Wst)
3. Gives a clear picture of the Final Gentile World Ruler.
4. Gives a clear picture of the Middle Eastern conflicts at the moment.
[Updated on: Wed, 30 October 2013 17:12]
Marilyn C
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| Re: The Super Powers [message #10098 is a reply to message #10095] |
Wed, 30 October 2013 21:24 |
wishing34
Messages: 214
Registered: March 2009 |
Senior Member |
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Marylin,
How about saying it this way.
<<< No one can be sure of what many of the symbols in Scripture mean. >>>
One can only give a working theory/interpretation - which is truly a fun passtime
as it relates to the end times.
It is fun to look at the traditional - Baylon, Med-Persia,Greece,Rome - theory.
Your theory is fun also.
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As far as my own theory . . .
My personal opinion is that the end times are probably far off in the future - maybe even 100's
of years. I do not see Matt 24:33 as fulfilled yet ( notice the word "all" in Matt 24:33 ) so it is unproven to me that the last generation has yet come.
By the way - interpreting the fig tree parable ( Matt 24:32 ) as the rebirth of Isreal in 1947 is a dogmatic interpretation
of another vague symbol.
---sig------------------------------------------------------ ------------
At the time of this post . . .
FA, the satellites, the spinoffs,and the FA diaspora have been having church
without apostles for 41 years and 303 days.
Initial start date 1/1/72
Recommended: No faith stands that strongly impact our (our children's) lives until we figure out
why the signs and wonders are missing. Something is wrong.
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| Re: The Super Powers [message #10099 is a reply to message #10097] |
Wed, 30 October 2013 21:28 |
Marilyn Crow
Messages: 598
Registered: September 2013
Location: Australia |
Senior Member |
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Hi Gary,
Yes it can be very confusing. The bottom line for all prophecy as we know is, `Is it coming to pass,` or `Has it come to pass.` And that we will all see as we journey together, whether it is the Revived Roman Empire or Islam over the Super Powers.
We live in very exciting times & God will make it clear to us as we keep watch for Him & what He is doing in the earth.
I encourage you to keep assessing each view & as I bring in further scriptures it will, I hope, become clearer, one way or the other.
God bless.
Marilyn C
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| Re: The Super Powers [message #10100 is a reply to message #10098] |
Wed, 30 October 2013 21:44 |
Marilyn Crow
Messages: 598
Registered: September 2013
Location: Australia |
Senior Member |
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Hi Jman,
Thanks for the chat. About the symbols in scripture I have always been taught, & I believe that scripture explains its own symbols. If God has left it up to us, well there are as many interpretations as there are people & even more for some people may have many views. That`s confusing. God says what He means.
I can see why people believe the Historic view of the 4 beasts, mainly because it puts the prophecy behind us & then the other parts of the end-times as way in the future - Anti-Christ, tribulation, etc. I note even you said that about your belief.
What I have been taught (over 30 years ago) confronts us with the reality of now & we find that hard. We are so conditioned to believing our Western countries are the good guys & then this view puts them right up there with the other world powers that become the Global Government.
So, as I said to Gary above, we`ll all be journeying through this together - whether here on earth or in glory.
I appreciate everyone giving me room to express this view as I know very few people would on their site. You are a gracious lot & especially William as it is his site.
[Updated on: Wed, 30 October 2013 21:45]
Marilyn C
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| Re: The Super Powers [message #10102 is a reply to message #10097] |
Wed, 30 October 2013 22:55 |
Marilyn Crow
Messages: 598
Registered: September 2013
Location: Australia |
Senior Member |
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Hi Gary,
Just replying to your thought on `influence.` We know these scriptures but it`s good to remind ourselves of them.
`We know that ....the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.` (1 John 5: 19)
`...the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.` (Eph. 2: 2)
..the devil...showed Him (Christ) all the kingdoms of the world, & their glory;....All these I will give to You, if...` (Matt. 4: 8 & 9)
That influence is Satan, the Serpent, the Devil, the Dragon.
These four names describe the enemy in relation to his fourfold subtle strategy. But thanks be to Christ who has overcome the enemy in all areas.
Christ in the sovereignty of His Lordship overthrows the great dragon, who is the destroyer.
Christ in the sufficiency of His Heirship overcomes the old serpent who is the deluder.
Christ in the supremacy of Hid Mediatorship overpowers the devil who is the devourer.
Christ in the superiority of His Judgeship overrules Satan who is the deceiver.
Don`t we just love to lift up our Lord & Saviour.
[Updated on: Wed, 30 October 2013 22:57]
Marilyn C
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| Re: The Super Powers [message #10104 is a reply to message #10103] |
Wed, 30 October 2013 23:15 |
Marilyn Crow
Messages: 598
Registered: September 2013
Location: Australia |
Senior Member |
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Hi Gary,
We are actually here at the same time for a change. I appreciated your encouragement & your comments about where the money is going. I thought I would prepare some notes on the world system so we can all share what we see happening. We all have different information which would help us to see the Global Government forming in our midst.
Marilyn C
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| Re: The Super Powers [message #10105 is a reply to message #10100] |
Wed, 30 October 2013 23:21 |
james
Messages: 2143
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL |
Senior Member |
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| Marilyn Crow wrote on Wed, 30 October 2013 15:44 |
We are so conditioned to believing our Western countries are the good guys & then this view puts them right up there with the other world powers that become the Global Government.
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Hi Marilyn, yep there are 3 of us on at one time for a change. I just wanted to comment on the observation that 'we are so conditioned concerning Western countries being good guys'. I don't think many of us consider this nation (America) to be 'good' concerning moral or spiritual matters...at least I don't.
“But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,”
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| Re: The Super Powers [message #10106 is a reply to message #10105] |
Wed, 30 October 2013 23:33 |
Marilyn Crow
Messages: 598
Registered: September 2013
Location: Australia |
Senior Member |
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Hi James,
Glad you said that, about the condition of the nation. But somehow people (in general & Christians as well)think that if we had better leadership of the nation we`d be the `good guys,` again, not realising that all of the world lies under the sway of the evil one.
Marilyn C
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| Re: The Super Powers [message #10107 is a reply to message #10103] |
Wed, 30 October 2013 23:40 |
Marilyn Crow
Messages: 598
Registered: September 2013
Location: Australia |
Senior Member |
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Hi Gary & James,
Just an interesting thought. As I`ve said I was taught this view over 30 years ago & those who received this a long time before that. So that would be about the early part of last century. Can you imagine the flack they would have received for even saying that the Arab nations would be a power in the end-times. Especially when most of the Arabs were mainly poor, desert dwellers in tents.
A bit different now as at least we can see the Arab power arising & has the potential to become a great confederacy when their civil wars end.
Marilyn C
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| Re: The Super Powers [message #10114 is a reply to message #10107] |
Thu, 31 October 2013 11:05 |
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Gary
Messages: 1025
Registered: August 2008
Location: Indiana |
Senior Member |
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| Marilyn Crow wrote on Wed, 30 October 2013 17:40 |
Hi Gary & James,
Just an interesting thought. As I`ve said I was taught this view over 30 years ago & those who received this a long time before that. So that would be about the early part of last century. Can you imagine the flack they would have received for even saying that the Arab nations would be a power in the end-times. Especially when most of the Arabs were mainly poor, desert dwellers in tents.
A bit different now as at least we can see the Arab power arising & has the potential to become a great confederacy when their civil wars end.
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Here is the way I see this whole thing. The legs are of iron and we know this represents the Roman empire.
The feet and toes show iron mixed with clay.
The scriptures do not spell out who exactly this is. We do know for a fact that: There will we ten nations arise and that the little horn who is the Antichrist or one world leader will come on the scene.
It does not matter if its the Roman empire or the Arab nations or the women's basket weaving class from the Ural mountains.
The important thing is that the scriptures are trying to show, is that, it will be "ten" nations with "one" world ruler.
Its not who or God would of made it clearer. In Daniel 7, he states;
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19 “Then I wished to know the truth about the fourth beast, which was different from all the others, exceedingly dreadful, with its teeth of iron and its nails of bronze, which devoured, broke in pieces, and trampled the residue with its feet; 20 and the ten horns that were on its head, and the other horn which came up, before which three fell, namely, that horn which had eyes and a mouth which spoke pompous words, whose appearance was greater than his fellows.
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The emphasis is on the one who speaks pompous words and makes war with the saints.
If you notice also this one world leader will make war with the saints for 3 1/2 years, I believe speaking of the woman in Revelations that is shown going through the first half of the tribulation and the dragon makes war with her.
Because we see the "iron" mixed with the clay it does indicate that it could be the old Roman empire, who the clay is we do not know.
Gary
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| Re: The Super Powers [message #10119 is a reply to message #10114] |
Thu, 31 October 2013 21:35 |
Marilyn Crow
Messages: 598
Registered: September 2013
Location: Australia |
Senior Member |
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Hi Gary,
So true about the `ten toes,` (Dan.2: 41) & the `ten horns,` (Dan. 7: 7) And I agree with you, as others do also, when you summarized it saying ....
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`it will be "ten" nations with "one" world ruler.`
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Now as we know, it has to line up with all scriptures on that topic. Thus we need to incorporate these scriptures God has given so that we do know the specifics & that we are not speculating or guessing.
The King of the North.
`the king will do as he pleases, & will exalt & magnify himself....the king of the North.....he will come to his end, & no one will help him.` (Dan. 11: 36 - 45
(This is the area of Assyria - Iraq, Syria & Jordan)
The Assyrian.
So will the Lord of hosts come down to wage war on Mount Zion.....& the Assyrian will fall by a sword not of man...` (Isaiah 31: 4 - 
(The Assyrian from Assyria - Iraq, Syria & Jordan)
The King of Babylon.
`the king of Babylon.....The Lord of Hosts has sworn saying, "Surely just as I have planned, so it will stand, to break Assyria in My land & I will trample him on My mountains... this is the plan devised against the whole earth....(Isaiah 14: 4, 24 - 27)
The King of the North (old Assyrian Empire -Iraq, Syria & Jordan)
The Assyrian (Iraq, Syria & Jordan)
The King of Babylon - (in Iraq)
So there we see God has delineated the Region, the Nationality & the country the Anti-Christ comes from.
Interesting to note as I`ve mentioned before that there are 10 groups in the Middle East that I see will eventually join together to form this 10 Nation Confederation.
3 - Syria, Iraq & Jordan.
7 - Kuwait, Qatar, Bahrain,United Arab Emirates, Oman, Saudi Arabia, & Yemen. (the Gulf Cooperation Council - GCC)
This could potentially form up to be the 3 & 7 of Dan. 7:8.
`While I was contemplating the horns, behold, another horn, a little one, came up among them, & three of the first horns were pulled out by the roots before it; (Dan: 7:8)
Thus you can see why I am watching with interest how this civil war in Syria will work out. If, as I have been taught, that these 3 countries (Syria, Iraq & Jordan)will come together (formerly the old Ayssrian empire) then it would be very interesting. Also to see who was mediating behind the scenes to bring this about.
The `plot thickens,` as they say. Watch that space!
[Updated on: Thu, 31 October 2013 21:42]
Marilyn C
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| Re: The Super Powers [message #10121 is a reply to message #10120] |
Thu, 31 October 2013 21:45 |
Marilyn Crow
Messages: 598
Registered: September 2013
Location: Australia |
Senior Member |
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Hi Gary,
Yes, so true that is something we can all agree on. And the rest is joining the dots as we go along.
Just thought -in relation to Europe, as we study further together (from this teaching)we will see what they say about this power bloc - its place in the Global Government & then perhaps the `puzzle,` will start to take shape in the details.
[Updated on: Thu, 31 October 2013 21:49]
Marilyn C
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| Re: The Super Powers [message #10149 is a reply to message #10136] |
Sat, 02 November 2013 06:04 |
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Gary
Messages: 1025
Registered: August 2008
Location: Indiana |
Senior Member |
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| Quote: |
Thus you can see why I am watching with interest how this civil war in Syria will work out. If, as I have been taught, that these 3 countries (Syria, Iraq & Jordan)will come together (formerly the old Ayssrian empire) then it would be very interesting. Also to see who was mediating behind the scenes to bring this about.
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Israel recently bombed Syria. They said they were supplying weapons to Hezbollah. Also the article went on to say, That Syria has conformed to the world's demands and secured and destroyed their chemical weapons.
I don't put a lot of confidence in the American media because it is generally biased against Israel. They can be attacked by Arab terror groups for months on end and the first time they retaliate the media act like it is horrible.
Here is the prophecy concerning Ishmael:
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11 And the Angel of the Lord said to her:
“Behold, you are with child,
And you shall bear a son.
You shall call his name Ishmael,
Because the Lord has heard your affliction.
12 He shall be a wild man;
His hand shall be against every man,
And every man’s hand against him.
And he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.”
13 Then she called the name of the Lord who spoke to her, You-Are-the-God-Who-Sees; for she said, “Have I also here seen Him who sees me?”
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God promised to make a nation out Ishmael who are the present day Arabs and like the prophecy says he will be like a wild man and his hand will be against every man.
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17 And God heard the voice of the lad. Then the angel of God called to Hagar out of heaven, and said to her, “What ails you, Hagar? Fear not, for God has heard the voice of the lad where he is. 18 Arise, lift up the lad and hold him with your hand, for I will make him a great nation.”
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Its very possible these Arab nations will be the ten nations spoken of in Daniel. At this point I am less confident it is the EU but God can change world events so rapidly.
Gary
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| Re: The Super Powers [message #10155 is a reply to message #10149] |
Sat, 02 November 2013 06:46 |
Marilyn Crow
Messages: 598
Registered: September 2013
Location: Australia |
Senior Member |
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Hi Gary & Gillyann,
Thanks for the scripture that really enlarges on them, the Arab nations. It is as we know `brother against brother,` & only God can heal relationship differences, hurts etc through the cross.
Marilyn C
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