Home » Discussion Area » Rant/Rave » What is the criteria to judge valid signs/wonders?
| What is the criteria to judge valid signs/wonders? [message #6910] |
Tue, 02 March 2010 18:00  |
 wishing34
Messages: 214
Registered: March 2009 |
Senior Member |
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Hi
This continues a discussion (Rant-Rave/Lakeland Revival???) elswhere on the
board but since it goes into a new direction I put it as a new topic.
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With this:(in a previous post)
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In these modern times of abundant medical imagery any ministry that
says they have had lots of signs/wonders will be able to produce many
before/after medical proofs.
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I meant when the real anointed ministry comes along there will
automatically be medical confirmations available because medical
imagery is so common now days.
==============================
But you really got me thinking with your post.
In the end times we expect mucho signs/wonders - from the real
anointing of God's ministers and from the devil trying if it were
possible to decieve the elect.
So if mucho signs/wonders are coming. . .
What is the criteria to judge valid signs/wonders?
This is not an easy topic.
I came up with quite a few ideas
and look forward to hearing more.
Here are some ideas as to precautions w/r signs/wonders:
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1 - Fake technology
Sage mentioned photoshop - anyone could print up fake medical documents
to try to prove healings. - solution is to check out the original sources
-interview the doctors, see the original X-rays. Obviously no one has time
nor medical training to do this - it would be a great web site idea and a
service to the church if some believers with medical training would analyze
healing claims and give reports.
---- holograms could imitate real looking, solid apparitions
of Jesus or angels or other. ( maybe Rev 13?? )
---- Radio waves can put a voice into the inner ear and a person will actually
"hear" a voice in their head - They should do this to Osama Bin Ladin and say
"OSAMA !! STOP BLOWING THINGS UP" - he might think it was the voice of his god.
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2 - Sincere self deception
All that is thought to be supernatural is not.
----A totally sincere sister in the '80s , in the faith walk, felt her fingernail
on her tooth and found a hole near the gum. She confessed faith for healing of
a cavity. She began to actually feel tooth pain (was power of suggestion). She eventually
felt solid tooth in the hole and had a glorious testimony.
Years later she realized that it was not a cavity but was receding gums which had
slowly uncovered a normal edge to the tooth enamel that had mimicked a hole
in the tooth - until the gum receded far enough to reveal solid tooth beneath.
There had been no cavity, no healing - just a misunderstanding - very sincere though.
At modern day revival meetings people feel a warmth in their head and believe a
brain tumor is now dissolved. - very sincere
At meetings people , because of emotions (endorphins), feel less pain and
testify that their arthritis is cured.
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3 Diseases go into remission, placebo effect
---even terrible diseases go away in the natural about 2?? percent of the time.
False ministers with a lot of meetings will eventually have a natural remission
occur which they will claim was validation for their ministry.
The placebo effect is a real phenomena. I heard an advertisement that said
their pills helped 30 percent of the people compared to 20 percent helped by placebo.
I thought wow - one out of five people felt better just from the placebo effect.
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4 Too low threshold
Christians have an incredibly low threshhold to accept a miracle - if it is from
our people. But if it from strangers then we exercise normal skepticism.
In the recent revival meeting someone found a diamond in their Bible and all
believe it was created out of nothing by God and put there. - instead of put
there by a person.
Back in the day HEF used to say how impressed a friend was driving in fog
while the Freemans rebuked the fog as they drove on. The fog would come and
go as they drove and prayed - just like patchy fog always appears to do.
Now HEF was "our guy" so that was miraculous?? Would it get our respect if
a some random Methodist minister made that same claim?
***************************
If an alleged sign/wonder can have a possible human/science explanation
then it is not a sign/wonder.
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The definition of sign/wonder means it makes a person wonder how it could
be possible and points them to the God of the Christian who experienced
the sign/wonder.
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5 - Don't believe what ministers claim to have happened - especially in remote
backwoods areas - Africa
In this current "revival" fantastic claims are made about what happened in
Africa in the past by this same minister. I will not believe the claims until
the same great signs happen with video/medical proof that can be analyzed by
experts via the web.
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6- Outright fraud is possible
There was a case decades ago where a minister would call out diseases around
the room with incredible accuracy. Then people would verify the accuracy of
that "word of knowledge" and go forward and receive prayer.
Turns out the minister's wife would talk to people in the lobby before the
meeting and gather information. Then she was in a booth with a radio telling
the false minister the info via a radio in his earpiece - "The lady in a red
dress is from Chicago and fell 2 years ago and her hip hurts." He would
fool the people as if his info came from God but it came from his wife.
When legs grow out it is possible to hold the person's heels with legs
outstretched in front of them, their hips "locked" against the back of their
chair . . . if you rotate their feet in an arch while their hips remain
not moving then the relative length of each leg appears to change or grow.
A clever con man could really make this look good.
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7 - Falling down is not a sign
People fall down a lot in revival meetings by the power of suggestion. Once
it becomes the norm then people expect it and when they feel a little light
headed in the moment they go on down - sincere but power of suggestion.
Watch and see if ministers are pushing on people.
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Of course as Sage says - regarding a ministry . . .
must glorify Christ
must be right on essential doctrine - Godhead, etc
must have Christian character (money grubbers???)
follow up Christian walk will be according the Bible
===============
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Any further ideas appreciated - shoot down what I said or add thereto
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| Re: What is the criteria to judge valid signs/wonders? [message #6913 is a reply to message #6910] |
Tue, 02 March 2010 19:03  |
james
Messages: 2142
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL |
Senior Member |
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This is a very broad subject and we could go in many different direction. One thing that stands out to me immediately in regards to 'judging' the validity of what someone is saying or testifying to is their day to day life. You used the example of Bro. Freeman and the fog, based on the testimony of his life, I'd believe his account of what he believed The Lord did, before someone I didn't know. There's so much more involved that just what someone says or does; are they faithfully preaching The Word? Does their life and ministry line up with what The Word shows a man of God to be like. Are they humble and deflecting the praise and glory from themselves to Jesus?
Then there's the inner witness of The Spirit, leading and guiding us and giving discernment. And what about FAITH? there are some things that happen supernaturally that we can't 'prove' but know that it happened. I believe The Lord has healed me 'many' times in the last 30 years, but because I don't go to doctors, I have no proof, except that I know because of the relationship I have with Him.
But I think you're talking more about the healing ministries out there today, such as Todd Bentley/Benny Hinn ect. who make claims of raising the dead and casting out cancers and other miraculous acts.
And then there's the devil and his deceptions, such as gold dust, 14 ft angels, and what have you.
“But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,”
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| Re: What is the criteria to judge valid signs/wonders? [message #6914 is a reply to message #6910] |
Tue, 02 March 2010 21:06 |
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william
Messages: 1464
Registered: January 2006 |
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I don't think it is possible to achieve what you want to achieve. A
doubter will always doubt even in the face of 'expert' opinion. A web
based 'verification' service would not be believable any more than a
personal testimony. The catholics have their own verification process
where each claimed miracle is held up to strenuous standards... you don't
believe them... why? Because they are catholics!
So an 'independent' group of scientists get together to examine whether or
not the water you just turned into wine -- REALLY HAPPENED. What are they
going to go on? The guys you asked to fill up the bottles? Of course
this is a miracle that the Son of God did; you'd think that He would make
sure that there was sufficient evidence for independent analysis, but no,
He just left it up to the disciples to believe or not believe.
So you are walking down the street one day and see a cripple coming out of
the local clinic in a wheel chair. You say to yourself, that man has the
faith to be healed... you grab his hand and (the endorphins kick in) and
he stands to his feet! Do you really think that ANYONE except a few
foolish believers are going to believe? I would lay odds that not even
his doctor is going to believe... before the poor guy could begin to
celebrate the 'experts' would have a natural explanation ready to explain
why it couldn't be God.
If, and it is a big if, they couldn't explain it, this doesn't mean that
they would turn from their unbelief and become believers in Jesus.
For those few who would accept it as a miracle (hopefully the man himself
would believe... unless he was as much of a skeptic as most usually are!),
it would be because the Father in heaven opened their eyes... certainly
not because of what flesh and blood said about the situation!
You are seeking someone you can believe in, be it an independent panel, a
group of doctors, anybody-- but God Himself!
Really, what is it you want to accomplish? Do you want an independent
panel to verify to you that this person, that 'seems' to have the gift of
healing, is worthy of following? He may not have much of a message beyond
John 3:16.
Even HEF (our guy) didn't discount that miracles occurred in meetings
conducted by people who rejected the faith message... his conclusion was
that the people believed, even when their leaders did not, and that this
was the explanation for why miracles were occurring.
Your definition of verifiable seems at least as tough as what Thomas set
forth and yet Jesus, if I've understood it correctly, indicates that the
normal state of the Christian should be to believe-- even before an
independent panel can be seated!
Does that equate to gullible? Maybe, but as James said, the Holy Spirit
is quite capable of leading us into the truth of all things.
Are those tongues you speak, from God? Have you done any independent
research as to whether or not a linguist can identify your tongues as a
real phenomenon from the Holy Spirit? Or do you just believe they are
from God? Isn't that being gullible?
What about your salvation experience? Did anyone around you see a light
from heaven shining around you when you received Jesus? Prove to me that
the greatest miracle there ever was (our salvation) is really a true
experience. You still wake up with bad breath in the morning... just like
before, right?
I'm just saying that if you are a doubter, you will always be a doubter,
unless God intervenes and opens your heart to the truth. And if He does
open your heart you will NEVER prove it no matter how many independent
witnesses testify to the fact that you have not sinned once since you were
saved... oops... there is an opening for old Satan to use against you
right there... cause you know that you have sinned since you've BELIEVED!
Am I against having standards to measure the truth? No, but I do think
that the believer, by his very nature, should lean toward 'believing', not
doubting.
Blessings,
William
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| Re: What is the criteria to judge valid signs/wonders? [message #6916 is a reply to message #6915] |
Tue, 02 March 2010 23:46 |
james
Messages: 2142
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL |
Senior Member |
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I wasn't trying to put Bro. Freeman's testimony about the fog clearing in the 'signs and wonders' category. You brought it up in your post and I just commented on it, that I believed him. Just as if I tell you that God delivered me from the swine/bird/regular flu, it's just part of the daily benefits of trusting in Him, not something to be pushed as a sign or wonder given to confirm God's Word as being true. Yet it does confirm it as true, to me and I don't take it for granted as far a being thankful.<smile>
“But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,”
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| Re: What is the criteria to judge valid signs/wonders? [message #6917 is a reply to message #6916] |
Wed, 03 March 2010 01:29 |
JWBTI
Messages: 253
Registered: March 2007
Location: Ohio |
Senior Member |
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What is the criteria to judge valid signs/wonders?
Does the world hate those that are bringing forth signs and wonders today ?
No !
Are those that are bringing forth signs and wonders today being persecuted ?
No !
Doesn’t seem to fit the pattern that Jesus set forth……….
18If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.
19If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
20Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.
John 15:18-20 (KJV)
Back in the late 70’s and early 80’s at FA, the world despised the ground we walked on !
The world hated us, the news media made world headlines with our beliefs and our way
Of life. The Body of Christ so called, sunned us at all cost.
Just a small group of believers desiring to fulfill Gods will and purpose in our lives.
What was the problem ? The world and the churches were united against us.
How could such a small group of believers, create such havoc and anger among the people ?
By the Word of God and the Power of the Holy Spirit !
What about the signs and wonders ? They were there too !
Ron
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| Re: What is the criteria to judge valid signs/wonders? [message #6919 is a reply to message #6915] |
Wed, 03 March 2010 03:38 |
sparkles
Messages: 246
Registered: March 2008 |
Senior Member |
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As the time of the end is drawing closer we are seeing multitudes of ways that believers are being deceived. As James said the "Emergent Church" is leading many astray. This deception is picking up steam and new converts daily, and the church has been seduced by some smooth talking deceivers. I watched part of a video at my friends house on the Emergent Church by a man named Eric Barger. What I saw was very interesting and in some ways sad that so many people who seem to want to follow Jesus is following these men who teach blatant deception, bordering on heresy. These men don't have signs and wonders following them(that I know of) but yet they have a huge following. Seems like so many are searching, so when someone would see what appears to be a sign or wonder from God, they run after that also.
We were a blessed people to have had ministers who pointed us to the word of God and encouraged us to study it for ourselves, get it in our hearts, and learn to be sensitive to the voice of the Holy Spirit. We were never told it was a quick, easy thing to do, but rather would take time, which many today do not want to spend on study, prayer, and learning to discern the voice of the Holy Spirit. Our relationship with Jesus and our knowledge of the Word of God is what we will use to discern the true from the false, the flesh from a demonic spirit, a truth from God or lie of the devil. The Lord said He would lead us and guide us into all the truth. James had a good reply with the various ways to look at a man and his ministry, and thereby discern or judge a sign or wonder. I believe God will lead us by that still small voice of the Holy Spirit as we yield ourselves to wholly serve God in every area of our life.
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| Re: What is the criteria to judge valid signs/wonders? [message #6923 is a reply to message #6918] |
Fri, 05 March 2010 02:01 |
JWBTI
Messages: 253
Registered: March 2007
Location: Ohio |
Senior Member |
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Wishing34 wrote….
-------------------------
Would you answer a question for me please. . .
I was at satellite assemblies and heard reports from Faith Assembly back then
but have had little to no response when I ask the following:
Could you post examples you remember of signs/wonders that occurred
at Faith Assembly?
Please limit it to what you yourself saw with your own eyes
or experienced yourself.
Ideal would be signs in front of the whole assembly following/confirming the
ministering of the Word.
Please limit it to things that were "for sure" supernatural and have no
possible human or science explanation - hence were "sign/wonders."
************************************************************
Ron’s reply,
Brother Jman,
During time (1976-1983) at the Barn/Tent/FA,
I saw the lives of 100s and 1000s being changed and being transformed
into the image of Christ ( Salvation )The Greatest Sign/miracle/wonder of all !
I saw a ministry that preached the Word and Pointed us to God and His
Promises and not to themselves. That Word affected the lives of believers
All over the world. No TV adds, No advertising, No taking up an offering to
Promote “Their Ministry” No seed faith, or Partnership or Internet…Just The Word.
During that time it was estimated that over 40,000 people had associated
Themselves with the teachings that went forth from FA.
Try that today !
************************************************************ ***
Wishing34 wrote,
Please mention names, etc that might be pursued for more information.
************************************************************ ****
Brother,
You want names ? Start with the 204 registered users on this Board, everyone of us
Have been affected by the Word that was taught at FA, and to think after almost
30 years of passing that Word is still affecting our lives today.
Thanks be to His Grace and Mercy !
What sign/wonder/miracle do you seek........ to prove that Gods Word is True ?
You and I and the 204 users are part of the Sign and Wonders and Miracles that
came forth from the Word that was taught at FA.......Praise Jesus !
The Witness is in your heart: The Holy Spirit !
Ron
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| Re: What is the criteria to judge valid signs/wonders? [message #6924 is a reply to message #6923] |
Fri, 05 March 2010 15:31 |
james
Messages: 2142
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL |
Senior Member |
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Hi jman,
I just wanted to comment on what Ron and William said, and I think they're both saying the same thing in just different ways. Salvation with the evidence of a changed life is indeed the greatest miracle of all.(and the Baptism of The Holy Spirit is a close second) I wasn't a member of FA in Indiana, just one of the satellite assemblies, but I know of babies being born where there was problems(such as turned the wrong way, or cord wrapped around their necks, or premature labor...) and The Lord delivered both mothers and children every time. Is there documented proof? No, no one went to doctors or hospitals, so there is no 'proof'...
I have no proof that God delivered me from possible crippling injuries or worse when I fell about 25 feet and landed on my back in a pile of scrap lumber with a large nail sticking up just inches from my back. I stood up and gave The Lord praise(with a very thankful heart) and climbed back up the ladder and continued working. I could fill up pages with testimonies of times The Lord has intervened in my life...as I'm sure many of the member here could. As to medical proof concerning being healed, there's no telling what all The Lord has healed us of or deliver us from, that we don't even know about. How could one know without a word of knowledge from God?
If you're seeking proof that God still performs miracles today(I'm not saying you are) and need evidence, I don't know if you'll find it. I haven't seen the dead raised or a limb grown out, maybe someone on the forum has, but I've seen people 'dead in sin' restored to 'life in Christ Jesus'.
I'm skeptical of many claims by ministries that are aways talking about signs and wonders happening 'over there', but never 'here'.
I hope I never get to the point of taking what God does for me on a daily basis for granted, did you know that for a person to learn to trust The Lord for their daily provisions is a miracle in itself? To 'not take thought' goes against the very nature of man...being by nature a 'control freak', allowing God's Word to tranform my mind so that I trust Him instead of me, is a miracle that I get to experience daily.
“But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,”
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| Re: What is the criteria to judge valid signs/wonders? [message #6929 is a reply to message #6910] |
Fri, 05 March 2010 17:29 |
wishing34
Messages: 214
Registered: March 2009 |
Senior Member |
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Hi James,
Thanks for responding.
w/r using the low threshold definition of signs/wonders
that you (with others) advocate . . .
We should expect a zillion daily life testimonies along with
the big spiritual ones -> salvation, bapt. in Holy Spirit, etc.
These though cannot be signs/wonders unless they
make people wonder (as a sign it then draws them to the Christians).
Unbelievers do not wonder when they hear our testimonies.
They are not compelled to wonder because they see nothing un-explainable.
When we read in New Testament words like signs, wonders, mighty deeds,
signs following, power - we all know those mean outwardly visible, incredible
events. Events that make men wonder because there is no way to explain what
they saw.
They had these things and we don't - that is a problem.
I believe my definition for signs/wonders of "no human/science explanation" is
the only possibly correct definition.
See my last post above as to why I feel my high-threshold
definition of what is a sign/wonder is the Biblical definition.
We should see a problem when we see zero
of the more impressive events - even when we see zillions
of the lesser impressive events.
Even if you choose a different definition for "sign/wonders"
than I choose . . . you still need to face the lack of
apostles that we have. - and my alarm bell sounding is still valid.
-----------------------------------------
It need not threaten your confidence in what you see God
do for you in daily life if you change to not call it
signs/wonders.
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Perspective that I see happening here:
Sincere people can disagree.
I am saying no signs/wonders (my definition) so something is really wrong.
Others are saying yes we have signs/wonders as we choose to define them.
Lack of apostles problem cannot be dismissed, only ignored.
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| Re: What is the criteria to judge valid signs/wonders? [message #6931 is a reply to message #6929] |
Fri, 05 March 2010 17:55 |
james
Messages: 2142
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL |
Senior Member |
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jman,
I just stated that I've not seen 'signs & wonders' in the form of what you're stating. I'm not arguing...at all, nor saying that personal testimonies are 'signs and wonders'...
As to apostles, what would you have us do? I'm not an apostle, if I were I'd oblige you with some signs and wonders(if The Lord directed me to). That's one of the 'problems', people are taking it upon themselves to 'help' God by all these false claims.
Do you have any suggestions? btw: you're mentioning apostles, how about prophets, you know any?
I don't think anyone here is saying that we're part of a 'church' that is moving in all the gifts and anointing and that all 5 of the offices are in operation within our midst. If someone knows of an assembly like this please tell me...
“But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,”
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| Re: What is the criteria to judge valid signs/wonders? [message #6933 is a reply to message #6925] |
Fri, 05 March 2010 21:56 |
JWBTI
Messages: 253
Registered: March 2007
Location: Ohio |
Senior Member |
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Wishing34 wrote:
Hi Ron,
Your answer indicates you also know of no sign/wonders.
Thank you though for getting back. We have all come up empty also.
You describe acts of God that are of course good but are not signs/wonders.
----------------------------------
Bro Jman,
No, I don’t think we came up empty !
Did I ever personally see a Sign/Wonder from the pulpit of FA ? No !
Tho I heard 100s of testimony’s of Gods Wondrous Power working thru
The people every week at FA !
I heard Bro Freeman, Stan and Steve and Bruce share many wonderful examples
Of Gods Power……
Did Paul, in Acts 15 see any of the Elders or the Apostles at Jerusalem perform
Any signs and wonders ?
Did John the Baptist perform any signs and wonders ?
Did Paul witness all the Apostles performing signs and wonders ?
Did Paul with his own eyes see Jesus perform any signs and wonders ?
Did Paul personally witness any sign/wonders at the Church of the Corinthians ?
Does this void out those ministries being of God ?
No !
Have you ever personally Bodily witness Jesus perform a sign/wonder ?
Is His ministry valid, even tho you have not witnessed Him with your eyes ?
I Believe it is !
Tho this may be of the lower threshold type of testimony.
I’ve learned thru the Word that we were taught at FA,
That the dead would be raised, that the Blind are seeing, deaf ears are hearing,
Broken bones are mended, a child that was given up for dead twice….healed !
Children taken out of the home by CPS, returned and restored supernaturally!
This I’ve witnessed by the Power of God thru my own eyes, by my own hands !
Why does this work ?
Because I believe the witness of those that pointed me to Gods Word !
Ron
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| Re: What is the criteria to judge valid signs/wonders? [message #6936 is a reply to message #6934] |
Fri, 05 March 2010 23:59 |
james
Messages: 2142
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL |
Senior Member |
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...(maybe it is just my hope)...
I think we all are hoping...
Here's just a thought I'm throwing out; it seems to me that we've been scattered (many anyway) and have been wandering in a spiritual desert for the better part of 25 years. We know God has command Christians to come out from among them and be separate(II Corinthians 6:14-18); many think this means to not be yoked with the 'world', and unbelievers, and idol worship, and infidels...but what if the 'modern day institutional church' has become the very thing God is admonishing us about through the writtings of Paul? What if the 'falling away' refers to the 'church' falling away from the Truth of Jesus Christ? I think a case could be made for this very thing happening right now. What if the lack of Apostles and Prophets is part of God's plan for now? Just asking out loud...any comments, anyone?
You mention we can 'wait'...and be kind to each other while waiting.
Amen. Thanks for sharing your thoughts, jman, blessing in Jesus.
“But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,”
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| Re: What is the criteria to judge valid signs/wonders? [message #6937 is a reply to message #6935] |
Sat, 06 March 2010 03:08 |
JWBTI
Messages: 253
Registered: March 2007
Location: Ohio |
Senior Member |
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Jman wrote:
Ron, please react to the fact no apostle was sent to us.
Is that not a legitimate cause for concern - cause to
say "something is wrong" ?
********************************************
Bro Jman,
Sorry for the misunderstanding on my part.
I guess in all these years, it never crossed my mind that we did not have an apostle.
Yes, I wonder every day why we don’t see the things like we read about in the Acts
of the Apostles.
What is the problem? Is it I ? Is it God ? Is it The Body of Christ ?Is it Time?
I have pondered that thought many times.
I know that I can’t make it happen, but I could be slowing down the process.
********************************************
Jman wrote:
you mentioned . . .
a child that was given up for dead twice….healed
More about that example please.
*********************************************************
On July 3,2007 Our daughter, Sarah & 7 yr old grand daughter Diamond were involved in a terrible car accident. The car they were in was broadsided by a large van....Diamond took the full impact of the crash, trapped an crushed in the twisted wreckage for almost an hour......
Sarah was cut & bruised an had a cracked pelvis, other wise ok. But Diamond,(according to there report) was not well.
When we arrived at the hospital the chaplain was called to talk to us before they would tell us anything about Diamonds condition.
They said: She was in a deep coma, She had brain damage & paralysis.
If she lived ???She wouldn't be able to talk or walk again.....That’s IF she lives.
The chaplain wanted to give her Last Rites, I told her that we wouldn't be needing her services for that !
A couple of days later the hospital requested that another chaplain come & give Last Rites for Diamond.......Well, I ran him off too.
I told him That Diamond was healed an would be going home soon! Well, that didn't give me any favors from the nursing staff as they were preparing for her death.
You see, we (Grandom, and myself) had already anointed her with oil and laid hands on her for healing, It was finished....the prayer of faith WILL heal the sick.
God had given Bro Dick(Grandom) a dream concerning her recovery and instructions for us to follow ! We obeyed the Holy spirit.
Isa 53: Whose report will you believe ? The Hospitals ? or Gods ? Ps 103:1-5 Forgives all, Heals all…… We took Gods report to be true !
August 26,2007,
54 days after the wreck, Diamond was seated next to us for Praise & Worship at our local assembly.
On October 1,2007 Diamond returned to school.
Sarah returned to work within 3 weeks :They told her it would be 6 months before she could do that ????
Ron
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| Re: What is the criteria to judge valid signs/wonders? [message #6938 is a reply to message #6925] |
Sat, 06 March 2010 03:20 |
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william
Messages: 1464
Registered: January 2006 |
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Administrator |
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On Fri, 5 Mar 2010, jman wrote:
>
>
> I do not seek sign/wonders to prove the Word true...I read the Word,
> take It literally and expect It to happen. When It does not happen I now
> ask "what is wrong?"
>
> The fact that the "Faith Assembly diaspora" does not focus on the problem of
> missing signs/wonders and apostles is incredible.
>
I did mis-judge you because it seemed to me that you were looking for
confirmation for any type of 'supernatural' experience, healing, etc..
Dealing with the situation that exists --a lack of powerful
sit-up-and-take-notice miracles in our circles-- the problem becomes a
little easier to embrace and analyze.
This was the pattern in the OT and it seems, at least in experience, also
in the 'gentile' dispensation.
The lack of overt supernatural signs (I'll use the term supernatural in
the super-supernatural sense, since we all have experienced a measure of
the supernatural as has been stated here by James and the rest) in the OT
was a result of two factors: 1) Sin on the part of the nation of Israel,
and 2) God choosing not to manifest Himself in a visible/supernatural way.
I think those two factors still apply in our day. So the first question
we must ask ourselves is: Do we have known sin in our lives? Have we
turned away from the Living God? Do we entertain ideas that would
preclude God working through us (pride, envy, etc..)? Are we following
Jesus' command to love our brothers & sisters? Does our love extend out
toward those who are not of the household of faith?
Secondly, assuming we have done the things we know to do, assuming we have
repented from all known sin, assuming that we have the mustard seed of
faith necessary for God to actually work through us, then we find
ourselves in the position of looking to God to bring about the signs and
wonders... they will come, we know that, but not one of us can cause a
sign or wonder apart from His manifested power. We can only assume that
each time we experience a healing, a deliverance, or a plethora of
'lesser' (to use your word) blessings, that each one is a pledge of
greater things to come... and come they will if we faint not, nor grow
weary... Gal.6:9
Yes, I know it has been 40 years or so, but the Lord encourages us:
Heb 10:35-39 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great
recompence of reward. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have
done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. For yet a little
while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. Now the just
shall live by faith: but if [any man] draw back, my soul shall have no
pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but
of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
We already know that the ministries of the apostles and prophets require a
direct call from the Lord Himself so any discontentment we have about lack
in this area must be directed toward Him --unless you know of someone who
has rejected His call to action?
Lastly, and this has been on my heart lately (I agree with Hardbones,
something is in the air!<grin>); there is at least one other thing that
may be lacking on our part, and this is something that might help us to
discern other areas that might need attention --FASTING.
Jman, you've been describing a situation not unlike what Jesus described
in Luke 5:35 But the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken
away from them, and then shall they fast in those days.
Perhaps it is time that we all fasted together for the purpose of seeking
God about this lack we've been talking about...
Blessings,
William
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| Re: What is the criteria to judge valid signs/wonders? [message #6940 is a reply to message #6934] |
Sat, 06 March 2010 04:40 |
sparkles
Messages: 246
Registered: March 2008 |
Senior Member |
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Jman said:
"What to do about the missing apostles?
The whole topic of having no apostles is impossible according
to the Bible - yet here we are.
I don't know what to do - this is uncharted territory Biblically.
Ron, please react to the fact no apostle was sent to us.
Is that not a legitimate cause for concern - cause to
say "something is wrong" ?"
In asking these questions I wonder what is your definition of an apostle and what is his place in the local assembly.
You say because no apostle was sent to FA there was something wrong. I would disagree with this. God has a plan and a time to do everything, including the 5 fold ministry. When Paul went about as an apostle what did he spend most of his time doing? He preached the word. After the saints were baptized in the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost Peter preached the word. What did Paul tell the elders in various cities to do but preach Jesus Christ. What did he tell Timothy to do but the things Paul had instructed him in and to commit the same to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others.
I am not saying there aren't apostles because I am sure there are, just cause we don't know where they are does not mean they aren't around. But I do know there are alot of false apostles out there claiming to be apostles.
Jesus could not do many mighty works in His home town because of the unbelief the people had, so maybe it just hasn't been time yet to bring the true apostles on the scene. I also am not sure there were apostles in each of the early churches house meetings. Now I am not saying there weren't, but I just don't know. There were 12, but I have wondered for how long did it stay at 12 or right after pentecost were there many others put in that office? It says there were many believers added to the churches daily, and since there were many house churches did they all have to have an apostle?
At FA practically every meeting had testimonies glorifying God. Signs and wonders? Sure there were, but they may not have been the dramatic kind you are looking for. A lady right in front of me had her eyes manifested healed. A couple other people were instantly healed from broken ankles, there were a few babies born not breathing and life and breath was commanded into them, demons were cast out, fevers left immediately after prayer, another person I know had her sons broken nose healed instantly, a friend of mine was healed from an apendicitous attack, animals were healed by the prayer of faith.
Someone else had fallen down an elevator shaft and was healed.
These are all signs confirming the word. I could give many more, but won't. When Lazarus and and rich man had died and the rich man was in torment and wanted to go back and warn his family of the place he was at, what was he told? Basically, if they don't believe the word of God, they won't believe though one rose from the dead.
God did confirm the word with signs following at FA and other satellite assemblies, but maybe not like Paul had, at least not yet.
As far as names I don't feel a need to give them out to have testimonies verified. I believed these people, had no reason not to. If others choose not to, that is between them and the Lord.
I do believe that we will not only see but be used of God in the supernatural, but in His time, not ours. If we seek the signs and wonders we could get deceived, but if we seek and following Jesus and the Word, we will be led of the Lord in these things. Could be the Lord is just setting it up for the true to come on the scene soon, to confound and expose the false.
[Updated on: Sat, 06 March 2010 13:57]
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| Re: What is the criteria to judge valid signs/wonders? [message #6943 is a reply to message #6910] |
Sat, 06 March 2010 16:26 |
wishing34
Messages: 214
Registered: March 2009 |
Senior Member |
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Hi Sage,
Thanks for posting.
--------------------------
You asked my definition of an apostle . . .
Ive never seen one to have great detail.
He is defined Biblically to have the "signs of an apostle" so I am sure it is missing.
My opinion is that . . .
he would be a he
he would have incredibly good Christian fruits of the Spirit
he would be doctrinally completely mature
he would have mucho gifts some of which operate with power (signs/wonders)
he would excell in agape love
he would not be a totally perfect believer - crucify the flesh -> possible to fall short
-----------------------------
You asked my opinion of his place in the local assembly. . . .
My ideas came out in this link on this board
http://overcomersonline.com/FUDforum2/index.php?t=msg&th =547&start=0&S=21946d027256bd265eb0187c5fce8892
Discussion Area Bible Issues >> Man in Authority
I believe apostles are essential and would change the "organizational chart" of the churches.
----------------------------
----------------------------
----------------------------
I will share what I think in response to some of your ideas . . .
Sage- "just cause we don't know where they are does not mean they aren't around."
I think in our times of mucho communication among Christian groups that word of mouth
w/r signs/wonders as I describe would be instant and everywhere.
Sage ". . . were many house churches did they all have to have an apostle?"
I think each apostle ministered to many such small meetings by traveling from meeting to meeting. Then each meeting
had apostolic gifts as oversight - but not present in every meeting every night they met.
Sage - "A lady right in front of me had her eyes manifested healed. A couple other people were instantly healed from broken ankles, there were a few babies born not breathing and life and breath was commanded into them, demons were cast out, fevers left immediately after prayer, another person I know had her sons broken nose healed instantly, a friend of mine was healed from an apendicitous attack, animals were healed by the prayer of faith."
These are the types of testimonies in many charasmatic meetings. Whichever ones of these testimonies were the kind with no
human/scinece possible explanation is what I am after.
Sage - I don't feel a need . . . to have testimonies verified.
Me neither, they stand as regular testimonies as given. I am looking for signs/wonders among us though.
Sage
"God has a plan and a time to do everything, including the 5 fold ministry."
"so maybe it just hasn't been time yet to bring the true apostles on the scene"
"be used of God in the supernatural, but in His time, not ours"
/Sage
These above comments carry a subtext that God might do or not do important
things like church function and apostles depending upon if He wants to during
a given time span. Our context is apostles missing for 40+ years not mere months
so we are looking at a long time span.
For reasonable time intervals I think we all would agree with you Sage. But at
some point we need to say "something is wrong" - I believe we are beyond that point
w/r missing apostles.
If Biblical promises can go without happening for "too long" of time periods
then the whole concept of a "Bible promise" breaks down.
-----------------------
We would all have no problem with missing apostles if we as church(es) . . .
were only months old
were a year old
were 5 years old
were 10 years old <- begin to wonder now
were 20 years old < - serious questions but wait and see
were 40 years old <- something is wrong
Obviously the above expresses my reaction as time passes. I respect you Sage
if you are not concerned yet - but you and I disagree.
I think all the 5-fold are given to the church because they are all necessary and
when apostles are missing - then something is wrong.
We all would think it wrong if we went 40+ years with no pastors
or teachers. I have the same reaction w/r to no apostles because I believe
apostles are also an integral part of every functioning church. If we had them
we would send them to every new church that sprang up.
============================================================ ======
Sage posted specifically w/r topic of apostles. Related but separate is
the concern that Signs/wonders (as I define them) are also
missing for the 40+ years (at least as far as I can find - finding is my hobby)
Not just us by the way - I have not yet found a for-sure supernatural event
elsewhere either. - at least not yet - time will tell.
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| Re: What is the criteria to judge valid signs/wonders? [message #6945 is a reply to message #6943] |
Sat, 06 March 2010 20:47 |
Mark L
Messages: 856
Registered: October 2006
Location: Canada |
Senior Member |
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I just wanted to say in light of Apostles/Prophets that I am of the opinion that they are coming world wide in the 10's of thousands. To all manner of the church. Not just the faith message. Matt 24/11 - Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. I think you could easily put apostle there. If there are many false rising up then then there must be true as well or it would be easy to find the false.
You can read
"Meanderings on Scripture by Mark
https://mlederman.substack.com/
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| Re: What is the criteria to judge valid signs/wonders? [message #6948 is a reply to message #6945] |
Sat, 06 March 2010 21:35 |
james
Messages: 2142
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL |
Senior Member |
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| Hardbones wrote on Sat, 06 March 2010 14:47 |
... If there are many false rising up then then there must be true as well or it would be easy to find the false.
|
I agree with you about the false prophets, actually I believe they're arriving on the scene by the hundreds daily. Turn to TBN or Inspiration Network on any given day and you'll easily see that most are false.(especially during their beg-a-thons, they prophecy some really crazy stuff...) And it doesn't take much discernment to spot them, but somehow the Charismatic community seems to blindly accept whatever they 'prophecy'.( It's my personal opinion that so many in the 'churches' today are there for the wrong reason, they've been deceived into believing that gain is godliness and greed not only permeates the pulpit, it's captured the people as well.)
And for the false apostles, one has to look no farther than Peter Wagner and his Apostolic group.
"then there must be true as well or it would be easy to find the false."
I don't know where the 'true apostles and prophets' are, but I'm of the opinion that the false ones ARE easy to find.
But jman is speaking of true apostles and prophets, walking in the power and anointing of The Holy Spirit, with the Word taught being confirmed with signs and wonders.
“But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,”
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| Re: What is the criteria to judge valid signs/wonders? [message #6949 is a reply to message #6943] |
Sat, 06 March 2010 23:23 |
sparkles
Messages: 246
Registered: March 2008 |
Senior Member |
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Jman said:
"These above comments carry a subtext that God might do or not do important
things like church function and apostles depending upon if He wants to during
a given time span. Our context is apostles missing for 40+ years not mere months
so we are looking at a long time span."
Hi Jman,
I can appreciate your concern about the lack of Apostles, but I do believe there are true apostles and prophets functioning in those capacities today. It may be in another country, but I don't believe they are absent. As far as them being here in the USA, I know of no true apostle. That may be a curse on this country, that God has not blessed with such.
For millenia the baptism in the Holy Spirit with the scriptural evidence of speaking in tongues was also not as it is today, but at the outpouring in the early 1900's God changed that. Now we see the promise of God pouring out His spirit happeneing. It may well be the same with the apostles, there will come the time when they will be exposed to this unbelieving church and nations with the signs and wonders you speak of. It just may have been a little bit here and there, but it will happen.
As we look at how many, even most have turned on what they believed at one point, maybe we have not been in a position to receive this blessing, but they will come, if not to us to those who have prepared and are looking and crying out for God to fulfil His promise to the church to give us the 5 fold ministry.
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| Re: What is the criteria to judge valid signs/wonders? [message #6953 is a reply to message #6938] |
Sun, 07 March 2010 22:03 |
james
Messages: 2142
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL |
Senior Member |
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| moulder wrote on Fri, 05 March 2010 21:20 |
Lastly, and this has been on my heart lately ... there is at least one other thing that
may be lacking on our part, and this is something that might help us to
discern other areas that might need attention --FASTING.
Jman, you've been describing a situation not unlike what Jesus described
in Luke 5:35 But the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken
away from them, and then shall they fast in those days.
Perhaps it is time that we all fasted together for the purpose of seeking
God about this lack we've been talking about...
Blessings,
William
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FASTING...not a popular subject, even among 'overcomers'. Of course we're not to broadcast it to the world when we fast, to make a show of our 'righteousness'. Just like giving, we're to do so in private(generally, but there could be exceptions...such as what you're suggesting, William)
I don't know if you were just throwing it out there as a possible solution, or wanting to actually fast about the state of the Body of Christ today. My spirit was uplifted when I read that, although I know we can't dictate what others do, but I'd like to suggest that we all (or as many as desires to do so) pray about this and seek The Lord for wisdom as to when and how long.
Not to preach or set myself up as anything AT ALL, but fasting takes discipline and commitment,(and I know those who fast are aware of this) prayer must accompany the fasting and while we 'can' pray in The Holy Ghost throughout the day while working, and skip meals...but I believe it's much more effective when we can focus ALL our attention on seeking The Lord.
I also know we're at different places in our spiritual maturity and I don't know what others think (we've never discussed fasting on the forum, that I know of), but the 'fasting' I hear about these day (Lent, for example) where people 'fast' from watching TV, or skip ice cream once a week, or not eat meat on Fridays...I don't believe God is too impressed with that. Maybe we could set aside a certain time period and dates that we can all agree to get serious with God.
Suggestions????Comments????
“But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,”
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| Re: What is the criteria to judge valid signs/wonders? [message #6954 is a reply to message #6953] |
Mon, 08 March 2010 01:31 |
JWBTI
Messages: 253
Registered: March 2007
Location: Ohio |
Senior Member |
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Fasting:
Seems that Esther faced the same situation that we do today.
The Jews back then, the Body of Christ today.
What will happen if we remain silent ?
Yet who knows whether you have come to the kingdom for such a time as this?"
Is this our time to make a difference? To risk it all for the Kingdom of God ?
Is it time to call for a Fast ?
What does your heart lead you to do?
Esther 4:
14For if you remain completely silent at this time, relief and deliverance will arise for the Jews from another place, but you and your father's house will perish. Yet who knows whether you have come to the kingdom for such a time as this?"
15Then Esther told them to reply to Mordecai: 16"Go, gather all the Jews who are present in Shushan, and fast for me; neither eat nor drink for three days, night or day. My maids and I will fast likewise. And so I will go to the king, which is against the law; and if I perish, I perish!"
17So Mordecai went his way and did according to all that Esther commanded him. F7
Ron
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| Re: What is the criteria to judge valid signs/wonders? [message #6960 is a reply to message #6953] |
Mon, 08 March 2010 04:58 |
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william
Messages: 1464
Registered: January 2006 |
Senior Member
Administrator |
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One of the purposes of fasting is to seek the Lord concerning our present
circumstances, the condition of the Church, and what course we should take
regarding these things.
I believe that the Holy Spirit will lead and direct each one of you as you
seek Him as to whether or not you should fast, but if you do, please share
with us any wisdom resulting from your experience.
As to the time of the fast we can get that from the Holy Spirit as well;
He leads the persecuted Church in other parts of the world without the
need of a flier announcing the schedule, He will lead you! As Grandom
pointed out, men cannot organize the Holy Spirit's work. However, when we
are burdened about the present state of the Church I can't help but
believe that He is the One who is stirring our hearts; it is up to us, to
respond.
Ron has given us inspiration from the Book of Esther. I recommend that you
read, in addition to Esther, the book of Nehemiah (especially chapters
1&2). Note the similarities between Nehemiah's situation and our own.
Blessings,
William
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| Re: What is the criteria to judge valid signs/wonders? [message #6963 is a reply to message #6953] |
Tue, 09 March 2010 16:35 |
james
Messages: 2142
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL |
Senior Member |
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| james wrote on Sun, 07 March 2010 16:03 |
| moulder wrote on Fri, 05 March 2010 21:20 |
Lastly, and this has been on my heart lately ... there is at least one other thing that
may be lacking on our part, and this is something that might help us to
discern other areas that might need attention --FASTING.
Perhaps it is time that we all fasted together for the purpose of seeking
God about this lack we've been talking about...
|
FASTING...not a popular subject, even among 'overcomers'.
|
I've written several responses....and deleted several responses...PTL 
Sorry jman, didn't mean to hijack your thread.
“But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,”
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| Re: What is the criteria to judge valid signs/wonders? [message #6965 is a reply to message #6964] |
Tue, 09 March 2010 19:10 |
james
Messages: 2142
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL |
Senior Member |
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I wanted to write something to inspire people, I wanted to share the importance of fasting, I wanted to encourage 'overcomers' to overcome. But for whatever reason I kept getting the impression that it wasn't from The Lord...for NOW...so I deleted it.
Maybe The Lord will give someone a word they can share that will cause us to see the urgency of the hour...before it's too late. No Apostles(among us); no Prophets(among us); no signs and wonders; not much unity; 'the church' being tossed to and fro with every wind of doctrine; no burning desire to do anything about it.
It's great to know God's name, it's wonderful to study His attributes, but knowing His names is not what He desires...He wants us to KNOW HIM. How is that accomplished...time spent alone with Him, allowing Him to take the written Word and making it alive unto us(REVELATION) by The Holy Spirit.
"And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS." Rev.19:16
It's not a title, it's WHO HE IS. The Hebrew word is 'shem' where 'name' is used, it's not a NAME, it's the revelation of who Jesus IS (KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.)
“But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,”
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| Re: What is the criteria to judge valid signs/wonders? [message #6966 is a reply to message #6965] |
Tue, 09 March 2010 20:23 |
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william
Messages: 1464
Registered: January 2006 |
Senior Member
Administrator |
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On Tue, 9 Mar 2010, James wrote:
>
>
> I wanted to write something to inspire people, I wanted to share the
> importance of fasting, I wanted to encourage 'overcomers' to overcome.
> But for whatever reason I kept getting the impression that it wasn't
> from The Lord...for NOW...so I deleted it.
>
The very fact that you and others are out there thinking about these
things has been an inspiration to me.
>
> Maybe The Lord will give someone a word they can share that will cause
> us to see the urgency of the hour...before it's too late. No
> Apostles(among us); no Prophets(among us); no signs and wonders; not
> much unity; 'the church' being tossed to and fro with every wind of
> doctrine; no burning desire to do anything about it.
I believe that Nehemiah shows us the way. The pattern set forth in that
book shows that Nehemiah became 'serious' when he heard about the shabby
state of affairs in the holy city. That was his motivation to begin to
seek God. (1Cor 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for
ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of
the world are come.)
He played a crucial part in the restoration process; a part that was
absolutely necessary in order that the later restoration of the temple
could be completed. He was used to repair the walls of the city which had
to be done before any work could be done on the temple.
He was the wall builder, the breach repairer, and it all started with a
report concerning the sad status-quo of his people and his city. That
report burdened him in such a powerful way that it motivated him to prayer
and fasting.
His personal situation seemed to be quite comfortable, complete with a
cushy job, hobnobbing with royalty; it would take a lot to get most people
motivated with that kind of set-up!
But it was time...
We can learn a couple of things from the passage that Ron shared from
Esther-- we can be a part of what God is doing or we can opt out, but one
thing is for certain, God is going to use somebody. Why not us?
Wall building is the grunt work that preceded the rebuilding of the
temple; afterward the way was prepared for God to use Ezra for the
spiritual restoration of the people.
We need to build some walls!
Blessings,
William
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| Re: What is the criteria to judge valid signs/wonders? [message #6967 is a reply to message #6966] |
Tue, 09 March 2010 22:51 |
james
Messages: 2142
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL |
Senior Member |
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I agree about Nehemiah (as well a Esther), back a couple of months ago when Bro. Ron posted the songs from the seminar and I heard the one about God's Sanctuary, The Lord lead me to Nehemiah. (I posted a part of what He showed me in the Bulletin Board titled 'God's Sanctuary...more thoughts')
Can we change our circumstances by prayer and fasting? God says we can. Will the Church open her eyes, or Apostles and Prophets appear due to our(and others around the world) prayers? I don't know, that's in God's hands...but I think the Bible shows that God honors faith, yet faith without works is dead. The walls won't be rebuilt unless godly men roll up their sleeves and go to work. The work might start off from the kneeling position, on an empty stomach.
Maybe we need to pray for the burden, to start caring enough to stop procrastinating...the Laodicean spirit here in america has lulled many into believing exactly what is spoken of in verse 17 of Rev.3 and and the deception has blinded people...God hates lukewarmness.
“But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,”
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| Re: What is the criteria to judge valid signs/wonders? [message #6968 is a reply to message #6967] |
Wed, 10 March 2010 14:53 |
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william
Messages: 1464
Registered: January 2006 |
Senior Member
Administrator |
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On Tue, 9 Mar 2010, James wrote:
>
> Can we change our circumstances by prayer and fasting? God says we can.
> Will the Church open her eyes, or Apostles and Prophets appear due to
> our(and others around the world) prayers? I don't know, that's in God's
> hands...but I think the Bible shows that God honors faith, yet faith
> without works is dead. The walls won't be rebuilt unless godly men roll
> up their sleeves and go to work. The work might start off from the
> kneeling position, on an empty stomach.
>
> Maybe we need to pray for the burden, to start caring enough to stop
> procrastinating...the Laodicean spirit here in america has lulled many
> into believing exactly what is spoken of in verse 17 of Rev.3 and and
> the deception has blinded people...God hates lukewarmness.
>
Right!
I went back and read what you had written (God's Sanctuary... more
thoughts)... good stuff. Would that we were all constantly reminded that
it is up to us to keep the temple free from the riffraff and always be
aware that our enemy is always seeking to defile the sanctuary. A lot of
the time he doesn't do it directly, he lets us do the work for him. This
was a tactic he used with the children of Israel in Numbers 25 and one
that he still uses today.
You mentioned the need to pray for 'the burden'. I believe that this is
exactly the antidote for the Laodicean spirit that is so prevalent today.
Until we become consumed with the things that God is interested in --like
the establishment of His Kingdom on the earth!-- we will never go beyond
the self-centered focus on our own needs and desires. The book of Acts
shows us that when the power came the disciples quickly gave up on
remaining introverted-- they became outspoken heralds of the Good News!
Blessings,
William
[Updated on: Wed, 10 March 2010 15:24]
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