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Re: BIG ERRORS: The Bride. [message #13049 is a reply to message #13043]

Mon, 30 December 2019 21:34

james
Messages: 2142
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL

Senior Member

So what's the thing that bothers you to the point that you keep hammering the deal about who has what in God's kingdom? Do you have a desire to have dominion over others and set on thrones? We know Jesus' answer when the mother of James and John asked for them to be seated at the right and left of Jesus ( Matt. 20)Maybe we're different but I don't concern myself with thoughts about what powers or places of authority I may or may not have in eternity. I frankly , am so unworthy of anything from God, that just to be in His presence forever is overwhelmingly wonderful to meditate upon.

When you said you were correcting Errors, couldn't you have just said you thought there was a difference between the bride and the body of Christ? Maybe there is, I think everyone on this forum knows we're not Israel and that we are the Body of Christ. So is it your opinion that our theology is flawed with errors? I'm sure I don't have full revelation of everything God's Word lays out (though after 40 years I should be further along than I am, but that's on me) but I do believe The Holy Spirit gives discernment keeping me from errors, heresy, false doctrines, and false shepherds. I'm not claiming never to have been deceived or believed something someone misinterpreted in scripture, but God, in His grace and mercy has shown me eventually.
So I am just wondering what's the point you're seeking to get over? I respectfully disagree that there are apostles today (not even your dear uncle) so with that position, I can't and won't receive teachings that are based from that belief.

So if someday you're in a place in God's kingdom of dominion over me, then hallelujah, I really don't mind... just remember that what ever I said to you in this life I did so in love and kindness with humility. I love you as a sister in Christ.🙏

[Updated on: Mon, 30 December 2019 22:49]

“But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,”

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Re: BIG ERRORS: The Bride. [message #13050 is a reply to message #13049]

Mon, 30 December 2019 23:03

Marilyn Crow
Messages: 598
Registered: September 2013
Location: Australia

Senior Member

Hi James,

`Hammering!` Isn`t this forum open to discussion? And I am just discussing as others do here. Just because I have been taught differently, & you believe you have the truth, then doesn`t it behove those who have the truth to speak the truth graciously and patiently? When people have to try and put others down it means they are threatened.

Now why I have brought this topic up is that it is not doctrinally correct, only based on an exhortation, and something said by Paul specifically to his disciples. Also it leads to an error in where we believe we will go to be with the Lord. Then, and most importantly it leads to not making the Lord pre-eminent over all.

Think about it, God`s word tells us that the Lord is pre-eminent, and that we His Body will rule and reign with Him on His throne. So if you believe we have been promised the city, then that COMES DOWN OUT OF HEAVEN FROM GOD. And thus the Lord`s throne, in that scenario is placed below the angelic realm, below where even Lucifer ruled, below God.

God has written in His word concerning His Son and that He will rule from the highest realm. We know that no one was found worthy for such an esteemed high rulership, none but the Lord Jesus Christ. And that is truly worth speaking about.

I`m am not concerned about my rulership etc but that the Lord be pre-eminent in all things, as the Father has purposed before time.

Hope that is a more helpful explanation.

regards, Marilyn.

[Updated on: Mon, 30 December 2019 23:27]

Marilyn C

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Re: BIG ERRORS: The Bride. [message #13051 is a reply to message #13050]

Mon, 30 December 2019 23:27

james
Messages: 2142
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL

Senior Member

Marilyn Crow wrote on Mon, 30 December 2019 23:03

Now why I have brought this topic up is that it is not doctrinally correct, only based on an exhortation, and something said by Paul specifically to his disciples. Also it leads to an error in where we believe we will go to be with the Lord. Then, and most importantly it leads to not making the Lord pre-eminent over all.

I`m am not concerned about my rulership etc but that the Lord be pre-eminent in all things, as the Father has purposed before time.

Hope that is a more helpful explanation.

regards, Marilyn.

Help me connect the dots Marilyn, I'm assuming you're concerned about The Lord Jesus not being "pre-eminent over all" in the life of a Christian, right? Because we know from scripture that He IS...preeminent over all Col. 1:15-18
Maybe you think believers zeal for Christ will wane if we don't have the same interpretation of future events?

“But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,”

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Re: BIG ERRORS: The Bride. [message #13052 is a reply to message #13049]

Mon, 30 December 2019 23:37

Marilyn Crow
Messages: 598
Registered: September 2013
Location: Australia

Senior Member

james wrote on Mon, 30 December 2019 21:34

I respectfully disagree that there are apostles today (not even your dear uncle) so with that position, I can't and won't receive teachings that are based from that belief.

Hi James,

Any of us can just say, `I don`t believe such and such,` but it takes effort and study as God`s word says to discuss with each other.

`Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. (2 Tim. 2: 15)

And I have not seen you do that. I presented what God`s word says and you never commented. Always easy to hide behind emotive words. Here are the texts again -

`When He ascended on high......He gave apostles....` (Eph. 4: 8 & 11) Note the `s` plural.

`Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy,..... Nor did WE seek glory from men, either from you or from others, when WE might have made demands as APOSTLES of Christ.`(1 Thess. 1 & 2 Thess. 2: 6)

Quite plain from God word.

Marilyn.

BTW I do not believe that all who call themselves `apostles` are truly so. Only the Lord knows who are His, I believe.

[Updated on: Tue, 31 December 2019 00:07]

Marilyn C

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Re: BIG ERRORS: The Bride. [message #13053 is a reply to message #13051]

Mon, 30 December 2019 23:44

Marilyn Crow
Messages: 598
Registered: September 2013
Location: Australia

Senior Member

james wrote on Mon, 30 December 2019 23:27

Marilyn Crow wrote on Mon, 30 December 2019 23:03

Now why I have brought this topic up is that it is not doctrinally correct, only based on an exhortation, and something said by Paul specifically to his disciples. Also it leads to an error in where we believe we will go to be with the Lord. Then, and most importantly it leads to not making the Lord pre-eminent over all.

I`m am not concerned about my rulership etc but that the Lord be pre-eminent in all things, as the Father has purposed before time.

Hope that is a more helpful explanation.

regards, Marilyn.

Help me connect the dots Marilyn, I'm assuming you're concerned about The Lord Jesus not being "pre-eminent over all" in the life of a Christian, right? Because we know from scripture that He IS...preeminent over all Col. 1:15-18
Maybe you think believers zeal for Christ will wane if we don't have the same interpretation of future events?

Hi James,

The Lord is pre-eminent over all as we know, and I`m sure Christians believe that. However because there has been false teaching regarding our inheritance then that actually presents the Lord in a lower rulership position.

The Holy Spirit has been sent to lead us into all truth concerning the Lord. Thus if I believe I see an error especially in relation to the Lordship of Christ, then it is my responsibility to bring up that discussion.

Marilyn.

Marilyn C

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Re: BIG ERRORS: The Bride. [message #13054 is a reply to message #13053]

Tue, 31 December 2019 01:09

james
Messages: 2142
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL

Senior Member

I'm sure there are people that presents Jesus in all kind of unbiblical ways and rulership positions, but that is not the case on this forum.

We know people also wrest scriptures to back up their beliefs as well as just plain misinterpreted what is being presented by God for our instruction. We can say we are ALL sent forth with a message, or are delegates for Christ...and that's true. But the Biblical pattern and example of an apostle ( an we've been over this before on this forum) is the commissioned person had a direct encounter with Jesus, witnessed Him in person and was anointed by Jesus for specific purposes.
Yes, we could say there were others in scripture called apostles but is that the proper translation of the original writings? I'm not digging out my Greek NT cause it wouldn't help me, I've forgotten everything I learned in Greek class 40 years ago.
Besides, if there are Apostles today my believing or not won't change the fact. Truth is truth whether anyone believes it or not.
Anyway, I'll bow out because this could go on forever, and I'm not interested enough to spent the time on it.
Hope I didn't offend you; I'm not offended, just not interested in something I know I will never convince you differently nor you me.

“But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,”

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Re: BIG ERRORS: The Bride. [message #13055 is a reply to message #13054]

Tue, 31 December 2019 03:23

Marilyn Crow
Messages: 598
Registered: September 2013
Location: Australia

Senior Member

James,

You have accused me of `hammering,` without any proof, no examples and then bow out. Is that Christian? You need to give examples so that I and others can learn what you are saying.

Otherwise there needs to be an apology for the accusation.

I have noticed in this topic that if someone does not agree then they will try and put down, accuse the other person, or flood the topic with lots of their own comments and not address the topic. It tells me that some people are threatened by certain scriptures.

Marilyn.

Marilyn C

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Re: BIG ERRORS: The Bride. [message #13056 is a reply to message #13055]

Tue, 31 December 2019 03:50

james
Messages: 2142
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL

Senior Member

Maybe the word hammering means something different in Australia than here...

I apologize for using the word " hammering " and that I offended you with it.

Sorry

“But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,”

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Re: BIG ERRORS: The Bride. [message #13057 is a reply to message #13056]

Tue, 31 December 2019 04:11

Marilyn Crow
Messages: 598
Registered: September 2013
Location: Australia

Senior Member

Hi James,

`Hammering` gives the picture of someone continually hitting people over the head with their ideas.

Thank you for your apology. Much appreciated.

regards, Marilyn.

Marilyn C

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Re: BIG ERRORS: The Bride. [message #13058 is a reply to message #13055]

Tue, 31 December 2019 11:34

william
Messages: 1464
Registered: January 2006

Senior Member
Administrator

Marilyn Crow wrote on Tue, 31 December 2019 03:23

I have noticed in this topic that if someone does not agree then they will try and put down, accuse the other person, or flood the topic with lots of their own comments and not address the topic. It tells me that some people are threatened by certain scriptures.
Marilyn.

Now that is funny!

Since I don't know anyone else you could be referring to but to me in this topic:

1) I have completely answered all of your propositions.

2) My 'put downs' are limited to actually showing that you've not proven ANY of your propositions.

3) My 'accusations' are that you have not provided ANY basis for your propositions.

4) My 'flood of comments' are almost exclusively directed to the topic and fortified with ample scripture references.

5) As to not addressing the 'topic'? How can you make such a statement when all I've done is address the topic???

6) You seem to be in a projecting-mode when you say that "some people are threatened by certain scriptures". Scripture is not something that should ever be feared, in fact, faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God! It's my food, my nourishment!

The only thing that I haven't answered is your last appeal (the "they" "we" "better" argument) which, to anyone who reads the book of Hebrews knows full well that the central point of the whole book is that we have better promises, better covenant, better High Priest, better Sacrifice, etc..

The "weak and beggarly elements"(Gal4:9) of the old covenant dim in comparison to the new covenant!

Those OT saints are in for a blessing for sure!

My real surprise was that you didn't say that the verse you quoted was to the "Hebrews", (you know, those "Israelites") and not to the "body of Christ". That would have been more typical of your style of interpretation, but I understand, you couldn't get away with it here because it would have threatened the very point you were making!!!

Lest I be accused of not being specific, let me quote you:

Quote:

Hi William,

Let`s look a bit closer.

`And all of these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, God having provided SOMETHING BETTER for US, that THEY should not be made perfect apart from US.` (Heb. 11: 39 & 40)

Notice the `THEY and US.` The THEY are the Old Testament saints and the US are the Body of Christ.

`SOMETHING BETTER` relates to a greater dominion. (Greek - kreitton & kratos)

`MADE PERFECT,` relates to being complete, to consummate.

Thus we see that the OT saints will be made complete in the city after the Body of Christ will be with Christ on His throne, the greater dominion.

Okay, 'let's look a bit closer'.

The verse is not a problem if it is simply read in the context of the book so I won't try to give an opinion, it really needs no interpretation.

You, however, feel the need to make 3 points.

1) "Better" relates to greater dominion. (Greek - kreitton & kratos).

It does not have anything to do with "dominion" except in your own mind. You are acting like you've already made a case for your proposition when you have yet to present any evidence for it--beyond repeating it over and over.)

Here are the places the word for "better" (grk.κρείττων) is used in the book of Hebrews:

(Hebrews 1:4; 6:9; 6:9; 7:7; 7:19; 7:22; 8:6; 9:23; 10:34; 11:16; 11:35; 11:40; 12:24)

Hebrews 1:4: Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

Hebrews 6:9: But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

Hebrews 7:7: And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better.

Hebrews 7:19: For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

Hebrews 7:22: By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

Hebrews 8:6: But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Hebrews 9:23: It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

Hebrews 10:34: For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.

Hebrews 11:16: But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Hebrews 11:35: Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:

Hebrews 11:40: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Hebrews 12:24: And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

How do you get the idea of "Dominion" from these verses? Does the writer simply change the way he/she is using the word, without warning, in verse 40?

Remember, you can't use a proposition that you haven't made a case for, and then use it to "prove" that this usage "relates to greater dominion".

2) Your second point is the words translated "MADE PERFECT", you say this "relates to being complete, to consummate."

I see no real problem here because the greek words "τελειόω" or "teleióō" (tel-i-o'-o; from G5046;) means: to complete, i.e. (literally) accomplish, or (figuratively) consummate (in character):--consecrate, finish, fulfil, make) perfect. But again, no idea of dominion here, yet you continue...

3) Your third point: "Thus we see that the OT saints will be made complete in the city after the Body of Christ will be with Christ on His throne, the greater dominion."

No, we don't "see" something that you see (again, you are using an unproved proposition, that you have set out to make but so far have come up short). Where is the separation between us (body of Christ), the OT saints, and the "we" of Heb11:40? Where is this "greater dominion"? The text does not support what you are contending. Why are you continually adding your gloss to the scripture? That is a dangerous thing.

Is it possible for you to quote us a passage without your editorial guidance? We know how to read scripture. You seem incapable of setting forth your doctrine without your own glosses added. That is a shame.

Anyone who teaches SOUND Biblical doctrine ought to be able to do it using scripture itself. Teaching unsound doctrine... now that's impossible without gloss.

William

[Updated on: Wed, 01 January 2020 05:43]

I want to believe!

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