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| End-time Events [message #285] |
Wed, 21 June 2006 14:48  |
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 william
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After reading another note that touched on end-time events I thought it might be profitable to start a topic to discuss these issues.
What do you believe concerning end-time events?
Have you abandoned the teaching concerning the rapture as set forth in Revelation 12?
Are you post-mill, pre-mill or do you believe in a literal 1000 year reign of Christ on the earth?
In my own life the way I view end-time events bears directly on the way I live. For instance, because I believe in the rapture of the overcomers (an event that precedes tribulation) I'm much more motivated to prepare for this event-- i.e. by overcoming.
William
I want to believe!
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| Re: End-time Events [message #286 is a reply to message #285] |
Wed, 21 June 2006 16:33  |
odysseus
Messages: 7
Registered: April 2006 |
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William
I don’t know how ‘profitable’ this discussion will be but I’ll bite.
“Have you abandoned the teaching concerning the rapture as set forth in Revelation 12?”
Yes, at least what you believe it to say.
“Are you post-mill, pre-mill or do you believe in a literal 1000 year reign of Christ on the earth?”
I don’t believe in the rapture. Respectfully this doctrine is a later 19 century concept and the early church did not hold to it. You’ll remember my comment on another thread where I stated my dislike of it. However I don’t think this concept is something that will get you into or out of heaven based on your view. Unfortunatley there are some out there that will hold you over the fires of Hell if you don’t hold to their concept of the end times.
“In my own life the way I view end-time events bears directly on the way I live. For instance, because I believe in the rapture of the overcomers (an event that precedes tribulation) I'm much more motivated to prepare for this event-- i.e. by overcoming.”
That’s good, but if the rapture never occurred or never really existed what’s wrong with ‘overcoming’ anyway. I just live my life, work, eat, sleep and pray. If our Lord comes back tomorrow I’m ready. I have a problem with people that look for signs. My experience with some of these folks was they never were good stewards with their time and talents. “The end is coming so why go to school and get training or education”. That’s why so many in FA worked in entry level jobs and struggled.
Peace
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| Re: End-time Events [message #287 is a reply to message #286] |
Thu, 22 June 2006 04:25 |
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william
Messages: 1463
Registered: January 2006 |
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| odysseus wrote on Wed, 21 June 2006 11:33 |
William
I don’t believe in the rapture. Respectfully this doctrine is a later 19 century concept and the early church did not hold to it. You’ll remember my comment on another thread where I stated my dislike of it. However I don’t think this concept is something that will get you into or out of heaven based on your view. Unfortunatley there are some out there that will hold you over the fires of Hell if you don’t hold to their concept of the end times.
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Firstly, I'm not going to hold anyone over the "fires of Hell" if they don't believe in the rapture, but I am glad to see that you believe at least in the "fires of Hell"! <grin>
I heard that there were some associated with FA who changed their view concerning the rapture south of Indiana, but it was only hearsay and I never heard any of the reasons, but perhaps it was for the reason you sited.
Anyway, concerning the rapture being a 19th century doctrine, that simply is not true. I'll attempt to go into detail later concerning the Biblical teachings that support the pre-trib rapture--which btw would qualify as pre-19th century, but I suppose you want extra-biblical support, which I'll give below.
First the term "rapture." You no doubt know that the term isn't found in our KJV, but it is used in the Latin Vulgate translation (around 405 A.D.) of 1 Thess.4:17. The word means "to carry off, seize or take forcefully". Which, if this is a proper translation of the Greek harpagēsometha, indicates that we will be taken away from something. KJV's "caught up" to be with the Lord" is pretty descriptive of this event as well. The question of course remains, why and from what are we caught away? More later on the Biblical passages that support the pre-trib rapture, but now to the "extra-biblical" reference which completely dispels the notion that it is a 19th century doctrine. I might say that it would still be a true doctrine if it were taught in the Bible and there were no references to it in Church history to the present hour, but that isn't the case here.
There happens to be a fourth century guy by the name of Ephraem of Nisibis (306-373 A.D..). I'll quote from a sermon labeled ON THE LAST TIMES, THE ANTI-CHRIST, AND THE END OF THE WORLD, he says:
"For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."
The whole sermon is worth reading; it deals with Daniel's 70 Week prophecy as well as an interesting statement concerning the anti-christ coming from the tribe of Dan. I'll post it in the Library section for you to review.
This is clearly an extra-biblical reference to a pre-trib rapture prior to the 19th century which effectively nulls that aspect of your arguement.
But, as I said, such extra-biblical stuff doesn't hold much sway with me, I would prefer to offer Biblical reasons for why I still believe in the pre-trib rapture and perhaps I can persuade you back into the fold on this one?
It occured to me the other night that it is very possible that we have sat beside each other, taken communion together, and perhaps even washed each other's feet during the three-fold communion at FA. It humbled me.
Blessings,
William
I want to believe!
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| Re: End-time Events [message #289 is a reply to message #287] |
Thu, 22 June 2006 20:49 |
odysseus
Messages: 7
Registered: April 2006 |
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William,
If you don’t mind. Do you believe you are one of the 144,000 ‘overcomers’ that will be ‘raptured’ before the great tribulation?
If my memory hasn’t deceived me, the overcomer’s theory as taught by HEF, (which by the way wasn’t his original idea) would come back during the great Tribulation to witness and preach. If my memory serves me correctly that’s what we were taught at FA.
With the most respect can I ask, do you think your one of those ‘overcomers’?
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| Re: End-time Events [message #291 is a reply to message #289] |
Fri, 23 June 2006 12:31 |
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william
Messages: 1463
Registered: January 2006 |
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Personally, I believe that to be counted in that number (those who will be "caught away" before tribulation) certain conditions must be met.
1. One must be living at the time of the Rapture.
2. One must be overcoming the present trials and tribulations.
3. One must be aware of the time.
4. One must be watching for the time.
5. One must be praying.
6. One must be preparing.
7. One must be accounted worthy.
Two of the above conditions are dependent on factors that I have no control over-- i.e 1 & 7, so to state categorically that I am going to be one of the 144,000 isn't something that I feel I can do. My hope, however, is to be accounted worthy if indeed we are living in that time!
| Quote: |
Luk 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and [so] that day come upon you unawares.
Luk 21:35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
Luk 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
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More later,
William
I want to believe!
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| Re: End-time Events [message #295 is a reply to message #291] |
Mon, 03 July 2006 19:14 |
Duncan
Messages: 95
Registered: February 2006 |
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Hello, all!
I know some do not celebrate holidays, but I hope you have a wonderful 4th of July anyway! I thank God that I live in a country where I am free to worship (for now, anyway).
On to end-time events.
First of all, everyone keeps posting comments on this and other boards regarding the 144,000. My personal memory of HEF's teaching (and reading his Biblical Theology book that was put together post-death), he never mentioned that only 144K would be raptured. If he did, then I missed it. In addition, if he did, then I believe he is wrong.
Secondly, my view of the rapture differs slightly from HEF. Based upon my studies, I believe the rapture is for the true church. I don't believe that only "super-christians" will be raptured, because I don't believe there is such a thing. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. If you are truly saved, then you are an "overcomer".
I believe that we are currently in the "church age". We are the bride of Christ. At the rapture, the bride will be taken and the Holy Spirit will be removed. This will signal the end of the church age. As I read it, the purpose of the tribulation is to restore God's chosen people, the nation of Israel, to right fellowship with God. Everything in the Bible regarding post-rapture events deals with Israel. God will use this time to purify His chosen people and restore them unto Himself. Since God is unchanging, his promises never change. He made promises to the children of Israel, and those promises will be fulfilled.
For what it's worth, that's my two cents.
Have a great day!
Duncan
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| Re: End-time Events [message #296 is a reply to message #295] |
Wed, 05 July 2006 04:27 |
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william
Messages: 1463
Registered: January 2006 |
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| Quote: |
First of all, everyone keeps posting comments on this and other boards regarding the 144,000. My personal memory of HEF's teaching (and reading his Biblical Theology book that was put together post-death), he never mentioned that only 144K would be raptured. If he did, then I missed it. In addition, if he did, then I believe he is wrong.
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I would venture to say that most who attended Faith Assembly did so because they believed that they would be a part of this "end-time" overcoming company of believers that will rule the nations with a "rod of iron."
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Rev 2:26-27 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
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We all signed up for the modern-day Gideon's Army (at least the adults did.)
You continue: | Quote: |
Secondly, my view of the rapture differs slightly from HEF. Based upon my studies, I believe the rapture is for the true church. I don't believe that only "super-christians" will be raptured, because I don't believe there is such a thing. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. If you are truly saved, then you are an "overcomer".
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I haven't used the term "super-christians." That term is used to disparage those who continue to believe that God has an army of overcomers whom He is preparing for the task ahead.
By the way, the doctrine of the overcomers/Gideon's Army, was once embraced by those who now have forsaken the teaching. For whatever reason they no longer are a part of Gideon's Army.
Perhaps the three hundred men that God used to deliver Israel from the thousands of Midianites were called "super-Israelites;" if so, I doubt they would have cared for it..
To continue, there were two tests God used to determine who among HIS CHOSEN PEOPLE would go into battle.
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Jdg 7:3 Now therefore go to, proclaim in the ears of the people, saying, Whosoever [is] fearful and afraid, let him return and depart early from mount Gilead. And there returned of the people twenty and two thousand; and there remained ten thousand.
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| Quote: |
Jdg 7:4-5 And the LORD said unto Gideon, The people [are] yet [too] many; bring them down unto the water, and I will try them for thee there: and it shall be, [that] of whom I say unto thee, This shall go with thee, the same shall go with thee; and of whomsoever I say unto thee, This shall not go with thee, the same shall not go. So he brought down the people unto the water: and the LORD said unto Gideon, Every one that lappeth of the water with his tongue, as a dog lappeth, him shalt thou set by himself; likewise every one that boweth down upon his knees to drink.
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God made the choice from among those who were not "fearful and afraid" (they were all His people.) In our case those who are fearful and afraid will be sent home and He will make His choice from those who are left drinking.
The view that the rapture includes the whole Church would be more than slightly disagreeing with brother Freeman. He taught that the WHOLE of institutional religion will go through tribulation to be "purged" and "made-white." He taught that the rapture is only for those "baptized in the Holy Spirit." Lastly, he taught that the rapture is only for those who are "overcoming" their trials and tribulations now.
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I believe that we are currently in the "church age". We are the bride of Christ. At the rapture, the bride will be taken and the Holy Spirit will be removed.
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What then of those believers who are not baptized with the Holy Spirit? Will they go too? Also, what happens to the five foolish virgins who were to be wed? Those "virgins" who thought they were ready for His coming... do they get to "know the Lord" in the midst of the tribulation period? They were virgins who had simply run out of oil; will they be given a chance to replenish their supply during the tribulation period? Perhaps they are to be likened to the "Woman" of Revelation 12 who was fed for three and one half years?
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Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days.
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You continue:
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This will signal the end of the church age. As I read it, the purpose of the tribulation is to restore God's chosen people, the nation of Israel, to right fellowship with God.
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Right you are, but isn't it possible that some "Christians" need a bit of "restoring" in this period? What about all those who held to the doctrine of "once saved, always saved" but who never bothered to go much further in their walk of faith beyond Jn 3:16; don't you think these might need a bit of "restoring" too? Are you really saying that all who have named the name of Christ will be raptured? If "overcoming" is no more than the lowest common denominator, then why even use the term?
Why does God say:
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Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
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And to Sardis:
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Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
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Are we to believe that those in Sardis (Christians who were not ready) escape the "hour of trial which shall come upon all the world" if they continue in a lack of vigilance? Or is the whole Church "lost" if they are allowed to experience the "hour of temptation" which is coming?
Again, when Jesus says:
| Quote: |
Luk 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and [so] that day come upon you unawares.
Luk 21:35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
Luk 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
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How many Christians ("true Christians" to use your terminology) do you know who are constantly watching and praying? Why does Jesus tell us to pray always that we may be accounted worthy to escape the coming tribulation if it is automatically going to bypass all Christians (via the rapture). Does not His own words indicate that there is a possibility that if you are not watching and praying, and you are not "accounted worthy" you will indeed find yourself in this tribulation period?
You continue:
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Everything in the Bible regarding post-rapture events deals with Israel. God will use this time to purify His chosen people and restore them unto Himself. Since God is unchanging, his promises never change. He made promises to the children of Israel, and those promises will be fulfilled.
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Are you sure?
Are you sure that there are not elect people (true Christians) who will be faced with the decision of whether or not to take the mark of the beast? Will it be only Jews who face this?
Are you sure that all of the members of your church are vigilantly watching and praying to be accounted worthy to escape all that is coming on the face of the earth?
It has been my experience that few are doing so, myself included; but pray tell, how is it possible for one to be diligent and vigilant if "overcoming" is a state believers automatically find themselves upon becoming a Christian?
Faith Assembly was a place where we were challenged, week in, and week out, to be overcomers. We were challenged, week in, and week out, to be diligent and vigilant, lest we be overcome with all of the cares of life, overcome with seeking those things that the gentiles seek.
How many brothers in your congregation can you look at and say "this brother is an overcomer-- he reminds me of Jesus?" Or is the converse true, would you be more likely to say "this brother is being overcome--I hope the rapture doesn't happen just yet?"
For those who don't want to "judge" (even "righteous judgment") just put yourself in the above paragraph and ask the same question.
More later,
William
I want to believe!
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| Re: End-time Events [message #297 is a reply to message #296] |
Thu, 06 July 2006 15:35 |
Duncan
Messages: 95
Registered: February 2006 |
Member |
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William,
Thanks for the informative and thought-provoking post.
My company is in the early stages of merging with another bank, so I have been extremely busy. As such, I don't have time to address each of your questions, but I will try to give a general response to your post that may shed some light on my beliefs.
First of all, I agree with a statement that Odysseus made that this type of theology is not of the level that could affect your salvation. End-time prophecy is subject to many interpretations.
That being said, here is my general response that covers more than just the topic at hand:
I believe that Overcomer = Christian. If you are not an "overcomer" then you are not a Christian. Taking it a step further - I do not believe that the 5 foolish virgins were saved. Jesus said that many will say that they prophesied and cast out demons in his name, but he never knew them.
My overall philosophy differs from FA in that I do not believe you can lose your salvation. If someone truly experiences salvation, then they are a new creation. They can't then become an "old" creation (the butterfly can't go back to being a caterpillar).
This belief influences the way I interpret the books of Revelation, Daniel, Ezekiel, etc. If someone truly had a life-changing encounter with Christ then they will be in a state of watching and praying. This doesn't mean that they become like monks and walk around with their noses in the Bible, but their attitude is such that their lives revolve around the things of Christ. When situations and trials arise in their lives, they automatically look to Jesus and his Word for the answer.
There are many in church today (and I believe back in FA, as well) that are hooked on some confession or emotion that occurred years ago, but they never really surrendered their life to the Savior. I liken these people to the 5 foolish virgins who have a lot of "head knowledge" about things above but have no "heart knowledge" about Jesus.
As for the tribulation, I still believe that those who are truly saved (heart knowledge) will be in the rapture, while the professing Christians (head knowledge) will be left. It also may be that the "so-called Christians" who are left behind will then surrender their lives totally to Christ and be saved "as if by fire".
I very much enjoy this dialogue with fellow Christians. As a postlude to my comments, I will say that everything I have written is based upon my own interpretations that bear witness to my heart. I am in no way being argumentative or stating that anyone else is wrong. I'm just writing my views and why I believe in them.
Thanks again for this site and the meaningful dialogue.
Duncan
PS - Where is our prolific writer, brother Hombre? Has he backslidden? Was he on the losing end of a duel with Fiver or Healed? Did he become a monk and head for the monastery?
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| Re: End-time Events [message #329 is a reply to message #298] |
Sat, 19 August 2006 18:16 |
tomax7
Messages: 44
Registered: August 2006
Location: Calgary, AB |
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The "Rapture" is still true, and the 144,000 is still true.
There is a distinction between the "man child" being caught away and the woman who gave birth to him being lead to a secret place, or shelter from Satan's attack against her.
There is the 7 churches in Revelation and the responses. There is the ones who will rule with a rod of iron besides Jesus.
There are the saints who will return with Jesus to fight the devil and his hordes.
So yes, the promise is still there, as to being late 19th century, well so is penticostalism and speaking in tongues per se.
God has a timetable when He reveals things, remember Jesus even said this to the 12 around Him.
Basically you want to know the last days? Look at the signs.
But what is the first thing Jesus said about it? "Pray that you dont' be deceived" and "if it were possible, even the very elect would be deceived".
John 16 says the Holy Spirit will show you ALL things and things TO come.
So hang onto the promise of the Overcomer. If it were all on merits, I'd be out of the picture. Remember Gideon was hiding down in a well thrasing wheat. A real super Christian faith thing right?
It is still all by grace.
cheers
tom
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Remember to Smile! God loves you!
www.tomax7.com
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| Re: End-time Events [message #590 is a reply to message #329] |
Mon, 30 July 2007 19:37 |
tomax7
Messages: 44
Registered: August 2006
Location: Calgary, AB |
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...back to the future.
You know all these RFID's (Radio Frequency IDentifier) tags going on Walmart and other packages might be the next thing to the Mark of the Beast.
There was even talk of putting them in MacDonald's hamburgers to track where people go after having a hamburger (besides the obvious end - excuse the pun).
They are wafer thin 'coils' each with an id tag number and information like date and origin. The advantage over the bar 666 codes we see on boxes is they do not have to face the scanner but be within 3' (for now) of the scanner.
Great idea, really. NO more cash or ID needed. Just walk by a scanning tower and your name, ID, credit card is registered.
Akin to the movie 'Minority Report' with Tom Cruise and the eyes, a scanner can be placed anywhere and someone walking by it will be registered.
I often wondered why the producer of Minority Report didn't try this idea (using eyes to register is a bit of a stretch even now-a-days) maybe because ol' Satan didn't want to tip his hand of future plans using RFID's.
Now I don't want to sound an alarm, I remember when bar codes came out we thought for sure it was the end. Well actually if you take the three long stripes, aren't each one a #6, but that's side tracking.
But we know one can't buy or sell without the mark. We know the mark has to be a viable method and easy to use, plus registrable to a central database.
People are saying the chip implants like dogs have in between their should blades is the mark. Too 'big' and just the thought of having a little cylindrical chip injected into your wrist will turn off a lot of people (Christians and non-Christians alike).
But a simple RFID tattoo or something might be more plausible.
Watch for it being used me thinks, and who controls the database controls the economy and the world no doubt.
Your thoughts?
**********************************
Remember to Smile! God loves you!
www.tomax7.com
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| Re: End-time Events [message #1141 is a reply to message #285] |
Sun, 27 January 2008 15:45 |
JRS
Messages: 36
Registered: December 2007
Location: Northern ILL. |
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How does one develop the idea of what Scripture is pertinent to salvation and what Scripture is not? Is not all Scripture from Genesis to Revelation inspired by God? Aren’t we stepping into the same quicksand of the denominational church? They are satisfied with being born again, having the knowledge of salvation and even possibly born again, and because of lack of understanding they separate salvation from a relationship with our Lord. As brother Tom wrote in a previous post about the Mark of the beast, is this not a very blatant warning? This is very dangerous ground to step on. Just because we don't understand something we should in no way diminish the importance of what is being said. The importance of the whole counsel of God cannot be understated. We seek to understand and even if we do not understand what is written it is still the Word of God. Yes, it is prophecy, and it is subject to interpretation. What ever interpretation we so choose to hold to, it must be subject to all of Scripture, and not to our own understanding or enlightenment.
Concerning the rapture question. It is kind of all speculation for it is prophecy yet to be fulfilled. It would seem Scripture talks about at least 3 raptures.
1. Pre-Trib rapture: Luke 12:40, II Peter 3:10 and others
2. Mid-Trib rapture: Rev 7:14
3. Post-Trib: Mat 24 Seems to refer to a pre-trib and post-trib rapture.
Scripture constantly exhorts us to be vigilant in our walk. A logical suggestion here is, with the understanding of the events given to us about the tribulation in scripture, one could be reasonably come close to dating the mid and post – trib raptures. How could the coming of our Lord be as a thief in the night with the accounts of the tribulation and time frames defined as they are?
The pertinent question should be, what is the purpose for the rapture? Luke 21:36
What is the result of the rapture? I Th 4: 17
God is merciful and gracious his desire is not for his children to suffer his wrath. Christians in the pretrip rapture are by no means super Christians. They are the ones who have continued seeking a deeper walk and relationship with our Lord Jesus. One thing I will say, I can find no where in Scripture a reference to them returning as an army during the tribulation. Scripture plainly says “So shall we ever be with the Lord”.
The question is: What are the conditions to be included in the pre-trib rapture? This I must refer to brother William’s post.
1.One must be living at the time of the Rapture. Yes, believe we are privileged to be living in the last days and will be part of first fruits rapture. It could happen very quickly, or it could be another thousand years. Does the timing really matter?
2. One must be overcoming the present trials and tribulations. This is something that each individual question must be sensitive to leading of the Holy Spirit. For we all go through different trials and tribulations. How we overcome these might be correct in one man's eyes, but not in another. God is working in each of our lives to prefect and bring us to him and the relationship He desires.
3. One must be aware of the time. This can only come by seeking the whole counsel of God.
4. One must be watching for the time. Here I have a couple of the questions. Are we seeking God on a regular basis? What is in heart or motive might say? Are looking towards the rapture as being a release from our trials and tribulations?
5. One must be praying. Are we seeking God and the communion and relationship he desires to have with us.
6. One must be preparing. Seeking to know more of God and His Love towards us and realizing that we are to seek the whole counsel of God with an open heart.
7. One must be accounted worthy. We must be accounted worthy. We look for conditions and guidelines to fulfill this in the Word of God. It is only by leading of the Holy Spirit and God’s sovereign Grace that will define this.
Luke 18:8
“Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?”
What is this Faith Jesus is talking about here? Is it faith for our needs? Whether physical, financial or spiritual? I think not! Did not Jesus himself say to us in the Sermon – take no thought for these things? I believe this is a delusion Satan has put out that we focus so much on our own personal needs that we loose focus of God Himself. It is the desire - or at least should be for every Christian to avoid all sin in our lives. Have faith in God that the work he is doing is fulfilling His purpose in each of our lives. He is the one working all things together for His good. Though we might not understand things. We must remain Honest with God and ourselves. God is Faithful. So many times we draw conclusions and feel we have the understanding of them. Scripture teaches us to stand strong in what we have. God also wants us to remain meek and humble before Him. He is by no means finished with us.
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| Re: End-time Events [message #1147 is a reply to message #285] |
Mon, 28 January 2008 04:05 |
ineterer
Messages: 5
Registered: January 2008 |
Junior Member |
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I have found a web site that is finally making sense.
Americaslastdays.com David Eells is the teacher
The live broadcasts are Sunday evening 8:30
Wed evening 8:30
The time is short!!!
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