Home » Theological Doctrine » Eschatology » The Bridegroom delaying his coming
| The Bridegroom delaying his coming [message #11390] |
Sat, 15 November 2014 17:11  |
 Mark L
Messages: 860
Registered: October 2006
Location: Canada |
Senior Member |
|
|
This has been on my mind for a while. Rather than thinking it I think I'll speak it out loud.
Mat 25/5
In 1982 Israel invaded Lebanon mainly to root out the PLO. When they did so they found mountains of Soviet military equipment stored there. Which came as a complete surprise to them. As most of you probably know for an army of any size to travel any distance all their equipment has to be moved into place. Its a huge logistical problem. Moving the men into place is the easy part. The Russians did this without anyone in the west or Israel knowing about it.
About that time a man who I believe "at times" stood in the office of a prophet stood up and said by the word of the Lord "I am turning the clock back to give you time to prepare" I believe the clock being turned back referred to the holding back of the War of Gog and Magog. The Russian military equipment was there in preparation for that war.
One of the ways that God brings his purposes to pass or to bring his will out of the spiritual realm into this world is through the prophetic utterance of prophets and apostles. That was the case here.
I believe we are in the time "The bridegroom has delayed his coming. It began with the holding back of the this war and this time will end with this war going forward.
While I don't believe that time (war) is here yet I do believe it is most definitely on the horizon. I think end time events in the world have been moving forward yet at the same time we don't see the stuff Jesus in Matt 24 spoke of for eg. I think it is coming.
This war occurs for definite reasons. It will open the door for the end time events spoken of by Jesus to begin to take place.
It should always be noted in discussions of this type that the day we live in is “The day of the Lord” Its not the day of the devil. GOD is going to deal with his church, his ancient people Israel and the world. One of the tools in his hand is the devil.
[Updated on: Sat, 15 November 2014 17:13]
You can read
"Meanderings on Scripture by Mark
https://mlederman.substack.com/
|
|
| |
| Re: The Bridegroom delaying his coming [message #11394 is a reply to message #11392] |
Sun, 16 November 2014 19:15  |
james
Messages: 2142
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL |
Senior Member |
|
|
| Gary wrote on Sun, 16 November 2014 06:50 |
Just an observation here. Why would God turn back the clock and give us time to prepare when we already have a life time to prepare?
Is God saying through this Prophet that we cannot prepare with the present lifetime we already have established?
It seems like a contradiction here, its like Gods going to give us another 10 minutes of time to get ready. The scriptures state the bride was ready and that the ten wise virgins were prepared it was the 10 foolish virgins who did not prepare. Either were ready and prepared when the Lord returns or were not.
Anyway I just wondered why would God need to give us more time if were not taking advantage of the time we have already been given?
|
I would think that it would be due to His Mercy and Grace. He did it time after time with Israel, not turning back 'the clock' specifically, but extending them additional chances to 'get it right'...in showing their love for Him in worship and obedience. He changed His mind after Moses interceded for them in the wilderness; He changed His mind concerning destroying Ninevah; He gave Hezekiah 15 additional years to live...in His mercy and grace.
Based on the lack of unity within Christianity as to purpose and function of The Body of Christ I can easily see where God could decide to delay The Lords' return.
As to whether or not this was a prophecy from The Lord or not, I don't really have an opinion since I didn't hear or know this person. But there are Biblical examples that reveal God's heart in allowing second chances for people to change, grow, repent, obey, and get right with Him.
“But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,”
|
|
|
| Re: The Bridegroom delaying his coming [message #11399 is a reply to message #11394] |
Sun, 16 November 2014 23:19 |
Marilyn Crow
Messages: 598
Registered: September 2013
Location: Australia |
Senior Member |
|
|
Hi Mark,
That is very interesting re Israel finding the Soviet`s armaments in their mountains. And we can look at Russia today, the `bear` of the north & see it doing its largest rearmament for years. We, in Australia are just hosting the G 20 & Russia, President Putin, has brought along 4 warships & parked them just outside Australian waters. Mmmmmmmm...... Why? because he can.
Now my thoughts as regard the `prophecy.` I personally don`t think it was from the Lord. God tells us in Ezekiel -
`I will turn you about, & put hooks into your jaws, & I will bring you out, & all your army,.....` (Ez. 38: 4)
So to me that shows that God is the one who will initiate any war, & thus needs not to` turn the clock back...` As Gary said -
Predestination, Providence, etc all things are set in motion, Why would the Lord need to change anything that He has foreordained from the beginning is what I am driving at.
Now as to `the bridegroom has delayed his coming...` that is a whole different topic to me, as I believe it relates to Israel & not the Body of Christ. (& there`s a can of worms....)
Regards, Marilyn.
[Updated on: Sun, 16 November 2014 23:20]
Marilyn C
|
|
|
| Re: The Bridegroom delaying his coming [message #11400 is a reply to message #11399] |
Mon, 17 November 2014 09:49 |
 |
Gary
Messages: 1025
Registered: August 2008
Location: Indiana |
Senior Member |
|
|
| Quote: |
James wrote; Based on the lack of unity within Christianity as to purpose and function of The Body of Christ I can easily see where God could decide to delay The Lords' return.
|
Let's say for a moment that this is true, God has changed everything and delayed His return so the church can move forward and function as a Body as you state.
The question is: If we now have more time "then", "What is the church now doing with all this extra time on our hands?"
Are they now pushing forward and bringing about this unity, or are they mesmerized by this world's entertainment?
It's hard for me to believe that God would give the church more time when it looks like the same old rhetoric prevails throughout the land. In other words is more time now making the difference?
Marilyn I understand what your saying but I think God is long suffering towards Israel and all things are moving along as He originally planned. Men are in a hurry and always want things to happen quickly, God is not in the realm of time, for Him its only been seconds in moving history along.
Back to my original thought what are we doing with the time He has allotted us on this earth? If we have this so called extra time now, can we set back and think we can always get more time if we need it.
Jesus told his brothers your time is anytime but my time has not yet come.
6 Then Jesus said to them, “My time has not yet come, but your time is always ready. 7 The world cannot hate you, but it hates Me because I testify of it that its works are evil. 8 You go up to this feast. I am not yet going up to this feast, for My time has not yet fully come.” 9 When He had said these things to them, He remained in Galilee.
I can't imagine the Lord saying if you need more time I can get it for you.
In other words, Our time is always ready.
Gary
|
|
|
| Re: The Bridegroom delaying his coming [message #11401 is a reply to message #11400] |
Mon, 17 November 2014 13:17 |
james
Messages: 2142
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL |
Senior Member |
|
|
Hebrews 12:1-3
Hebrews chapter twelve was my NT daily reading this morning, and the warning and encouragement to not faint or grow weary in our minds along with laying aside every thing that would hinder our running to completion of the race set before us is a good reminder. Whether or not there is a delay or not shouldn't be reason for a Christian to presume upon God's mercy, we should be living expectantly as He tells us to do, redeeming the time given us.
“But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,”
|
|
|
| Re: The Bridegroom delaying his coming [message #11407 is a reply to message #11400] |
Fri, 21 November 2014 00:19 |
Marilyn Crow
Messages: 598
Registered: September 2013
Location: Australia |
Senior Member |
|
|
Hi Gary,
You said -
| Quote: |
`Marilyn I understand what your saying but I think God is long suffering towards Israel and all things are moving along as He originally planned..`
|
I`m not sure that you read my comments right as that is what I was saying.
Blessings bro. Marilyn.
Marilyn C
|
|
|
| Re: The Bridegroom delaying his coming [message #11410 is a reply to message #11394] |
Fri, 21 November 2014 07:28 |
Mark L
Messages: 860
Registered: October 2006
Location: Canada |
Senior Member |
|
|
| james wrote on Sun, 16 November 2014 14:15 |
As to whether or not this was a prophecy from The Lord or not, I don't really have an opinion since I didn't hear or know this person.
|
That was given by Bro Freeman at Faith Assembly. Most of the people who read and comment here would have heard him say that and I wanted to jog everyones memories. The main point to my post is that I believe that war is on the horizon
It seems to me that so many years have passed without anything really significant happening. I think things have happened and are happening but we don’t see the things Jesus spoke of. I think we are in the time the bridegroom has delayed his coming and it will end with the war of Gog and Magog.
There are several reasons for that war
1. To destroy Russian military power. The antichrist is going to arise into a place prepared for him. That is not entirely supernatural. Russia has to be removed as a military power. Probably Turkey and Iran as well.
2. To punish Russia for its treatment of the Jews in particular and the multitudes of minorities in general. God is the judge of all the earth and he does bring judgment.
3. To turn Israel back to their ancient god. Not savingly of course. But the entire nation is going to see the supernatural hand of God on their behalf. Even the most hardened atheist will have to admit their God has showed himself.
4. So Israel can build their temple and reinstitute the sacrifices.
5. To move the world toward a more supernatural worldview.I think in the not too distant future evolution is going to be replaced with something partly science and partly mystical. Also I think there are tidal waves of the occult coming.
The antichrist begins his rise to power in there somewhere as well. To sign a peace treaty with Israel at the beginning of the trib he must be in power already.
I think it is this war that opens the door for end time events to really begin to move forward. Beginning with the persecution Jesus spoke of in Luke 21. Followed by the beginning of sorrows the sorrows the tribulation and the great tribulation (second half)
Following this war and rebuilding of the temple a unreasoning resentment toward Jews and Christians will begin. Luke 21/12. Eventually culminating in an implacable hatred. There are several reasons for that “end time” persecution.
1. So God can cleanse his church. He is going to have a church without spot or wrinkle. Luke 3/17 Before he deals with the world he has to deal with his church.
2. To move the Jews his ancient people back into their land. It’s a terrible thing to have to say but I believe that ultimately there won’t be any Jews left anywhere outside the national borders of Israel. Without some sort of impetus most simply won’t move. Unfortunately they will have plenty of impetus. The reason for this of course is that one of the major end time purposes of god is to bring his people into salvation
[Updated on: Fri, 21 November 2014 07:49]
You can read
"Meanderings on Scripture by Mark
https://mlederman.substack.com/
|
|
| |
| Re: The Bridegroom delaying his coming [message #11418 is a reply to message #11410] |
Sat, 22 November 2014 05:50 |
Marilyn Crow
Messages: 598
Registered: September 2013
Location: Australia |
Senior Member |
|
|
Hi Mark,
That was a good & interesting post you did & I agree with most of it. There is a point that you may like to clear up for me. It concerns this `cleansing of His Church.` Could you explain that further for me as to how you see that.
Thank you, Marilyn.
Marilyn C
|
|
|
| Re: The Bridegroom delaying his coming [message #11424 is a reply to message #11418] |
Sat, 22 November 2014 21:17 |
Mark L
Messages: 860
Registered: October 2006
Location: Canada |
Senior Member |
|
|
| Marilyn Crow wrote on Sat, 22 November 2014 00:50 |
Hi Mark,
That was a good & interesting post you did & I agree with most of it. There is a point that you may like to clear up for me. It concerns this `cleansing of His Church.` Could you explain that further for me as to how you see that.
Thank you, Marilyn.
|
Sure. I see it two ways.
One a cleansing of sin & worldliness and two a setting of things in proper order.
What we have right now is a church where everyone goes their own way and believes what they want. Not a lot of unity even of the love kind. Its also full of sin and worldliness of all kinds. I'm speaking here of the worldwide church. That is a concept I don't really believe in or agree with but it does have its uses. Its also divided into denominations and non denominations.
Peter I think talked of those who have suffered in the flesh have ceased from sin. My opinion of what he had in mind was that suffering trial sickness & (in this context) persecution simply don't allow people (us) the time or inclination to sin. The positive side to that is that suffering concentrates ones mind wonderfully on the Lord.
I think the Holy Spirit is going to do a big work of cleansing his church of sin worldliness lack of commitment etc. That is one of the primary purposes of the persecution. Setting his own house in order
Setting his own house in order is going to start with the great falling away. Some of our important teachers here from the past (speaking of O/O) have said they believed it was occurring now. Pointing to the slide toward secularism mysticism etc. I beg to differ. I think it going to happen after the Gog war and in the rise to persecution. A falling away that is so noticeable it is in the news headlines. Paul spoke of it as a "clear" endtime sign.
The falling away will occur for several reasons. True believers falling prey to false ministers, chair sitters see something more interesting, persecution driving out those who aren't really committed etc. The big reason though is that whole world turns after something else.
I believe the time is coming when the Holy Spirit is going to get very serious with his people. Requiring a much deeper commitment to holiness & discipleship. All of us believe that to stay in fellowship with the Lord a commitment to holiness is needful. I am speaking of something much much deeper. As time goes on it will become an absolute necessity. Both as a requirement from the Lord and simply needful to stay alive
I also think one of the big ways God is going to cleanse,purify and set his church in order is through the ministry of apostles and prophets. Eph. 4/11 is abundantly clear. We as individuals or his church will only come to maturity though the direct involvement of 5 different ministries.
I think apostles and prophets have always been here and are here now. But not in large numbers to say the least. I think it was a very common office in the early church and will be again in the end time church.
In other words I think they are going to come worldwide in the 10's of thousands. Raised up by the Holy Spirit.
If anyone is interested in apostles read up on "Saint" Patrick of Ireland. That man and some of those who were raised up after him stood under an apostolic anointing. Don't listen to the commentators just read about the supernatural stuff and believe it. Its coming in this end time too.
Sorry for being long winded here. I was just typing as I was thinking. Reminds me of a guy I used to work with. I would get in the truck with him and ask a question and an hour later he was still answering. 
[Updated on: Sat, 22 November 2014 21:20]
You can read
"Meanderings on Scripture by Mark
https://mlederman.substack.com/
|
|
|
| Re: The Bridegroom delaying his coming [message #11425 is a reply to message #11424] |
Sat, 22 November 2014 23:12 |
Marilyn Crow
Messages: 598
Registered: September 2013
Location: Australia |
Senior Member |
|
|
Hi Mark,
I appreciate your long answer as it helps us all to understand what you are thinking & challenges us to look at what we believe. I can see you have a heart for our Lord & His Body. You have a lot of good points, I believe, & some quite insightful - re: the Body of Christ to come to maturity through the 5 fold ministries.
I hope you don`t mind but I would like to ask you some more questions, trying to find out what you base some of your thoughts on. Here are a couple of my questions & will ask more if you want to keep discussing.
1. You obviously believe that Christ is Head of His Body, so ...`What do you see He has done over the past 2000 years in building it?` (Matt. 16: 18)
2. What truths do you see that the Holy Spirit has led us into already, & what truths do you see He has yet to reveal to us? (John 16: 13)
Blessings, Marilyn.
Marilyn C
|
|
|
| Re: The Bridegroom delaying his coming [message #11429 is a reply to message #11425] |
Tue, 25 November 2014 00:35 |
Mark L
Messages: 860
Registered: October 2006
Location: Canada |
Senior Member |
|
|
Wow 2 big questions. How do I answer. *scratches his head and wonders* Not really sure what you're looking for so I'll just answer and we'll go from there.
You obviously believe that Christ is Head of His Body, so ...`What do you see He has done over the past 2000 years in building it?` (Matt. 16: 18)
I suppose my answer would be not much. I see our history as the church as a series of (big and small) (long and short) revivals. Once the early church died out in the 3thd century lost the Holy spirit and miracles etc things just went downhill. Solomon said something very interesting in Ecclesiastes 8:17 NKJV
Then I saw all the work of God that a man cannot find out the work that is done under the sun. For though a man labors to discover it yet he will not find it; moreover though a wise man attempts to know it , he will not be able to find it.
I've pondered on that vs for years. I don't want to make it too mysterious but I think Gods real purposes and work are hidden very deeply. Although Solomon obviously saw it.
What truths do you see that the Holy Spirit has led us into already, & what truths do you see He has yet to reveal to us? (John 16: 13)
I think one big one was the baptism of the HS. That has opened the door to so much. There were so many moves of God over the centuries. These people must have had the HS. John Wesley made a "little" comment about the Spirit of Whoredoms that showed he understood what it was. Yet in all my 40 yrs as a charismatic xian I have never heard anyone speak to it. The entire book of Hosea is dealing with that spirit and IT IS A BIGGIE. Martin Luther having to deal with a poltergeist spirit. Had to have the HS.
One area I think real revelation is coming and that is on the doctrine of Christ. I find that subject fascinating. So deep. Yet we don't see again any real teaching or revelation on it.
I think that subject (Christ) is going to be the center of some real serious heresy warefare and revelation in the end times. Jesus spoke of false prophets coming and I think that will be a very strong focus on both sides.
Another truth I see but don't really understand is Eph 5:12 I think there something much deeper spoken of here. I don't really understand it but I think the evil powers of this world exert an "influence" on all of us (humanity) that is not really apparent. As I said I don't really understand it but I think it is there and God is going to deliver his church from it in this end time.
One other thing I think God is going to do/show/reveal is Rom 8:20-21 Not so much the sons of God (although thats interesting) but creation. I have some thoughts on that I have pondered for a long time but never really put my thoughts in order. Let me just say that I think the world as we see it is a pale shadow of what God created.
Anyway not sure what you were looking for but there are some thoughts.
You can read
"Meanderings on Scripture by Mark
https://mlederman.substack.com/
|
|
|
| Re: The Bridegroom delaying his coming [message #11431 is a reply to message #11429] |
Tue, 25 November 2014 06:49 |
Marilyn Crow
Messages: 598
Registered: September 2013
Location: Australia |
Senior Member |
|
|
Hi Mark,
I so agree with you that the subject of Christ is going to be the centre of revelation & of course, great heresy with the infernal forces of darkness battling against the Body of Christ.
To know Christ in all His fullness is the revelation, I believe that will bring the Body of Christ to full maturity in Him. Thus the Holy Spirit will unfold to us more of Christ` character & His purpose, from His word.
The Ecclesiastes scripture I believe refers to the work of God in creation - the making, sustaining & upholding it with all its laws & operations that are in the unseen realms.
Now you have done well with your answers to share so detailed. I would like to challenge us all though, in some areas.
The first question.
You obviously believe that Christ is Head of His Body, so ...`What do you see He has done over the past 2000 years in building it?` (Matt. 16: 18)
It`s interesting that you believe that Christ is the Head of the Body, yet you don`t believe that He has done much in building the Body over the last 2000 years. I suppose my answer would be not much.
So, I`m thinking, either Christ is a liar or not very powerful to build His Body; OR & this is a big one - OR rather we are evaluating, measuring the Body of Christ wrongly. Now has any of us built a `Body of Christ,` before? Then how can we say how it looks? Yet the Lord actually does say how He is building His Body & what it looks like.
I`ll let you, myself & others who are interested to look that up & maybe it will become a good discussion.
How is Christ building His Body?
What does it look like?
I will make comments & ask questions on your second part later.
God bless, & am enjoying the discussion. Marilyn.
Marilyn C
|
|
|
| Re: The Bridegroom delaying his coming [message #11435 is a reply to message #11431] |
Wed, 26 November 2014 14:56 |
james
Messages: 2142
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL |
Senior Member |
|
|
| Marilyn Crow wrote on Tue, 25 November 2014 00:49 |
It`s interesting that you believe that Christ is the Head of the Body, yet you don`t believe that He has done much in building the Body over the last 2000 years. I suppose my answer would be not much.
So, I`m thinking, either Christ is a liar or not very powerful to build His Body; OR & this is a big one - OR rather we are evaluating, measuring the Body of Christ wrongly.
|
Interesting comments, by both of you. Mark I'm not sure what you mean by your statement about Christ 'not doing much' to build the Body of Christ. Are you referring to 'the church' as the institutional system of today corporately? or are you speaking of The Body of Christ as those chosen and called unto salvation throughout time? Maybe Marilyn is thinking along this line of thought...not sure, but I would like to remind us that the true Body of Christ (just as the remnant was kept throughout Israel's history) has always been lead by The Lord and kept...remember He said He would NEVER leave or forsake us. And I can see the comparison to Israel in their continual falling away to worship false gods and repentance and returning back to God and the 'church's' history of revivals (remember there wouldn't be a NEED for revival if people didn't fall away and into idolatry and all manner of sin).
But every soul ever saved joined to the Body of Christ would be (imo)' Christ building His church'. Remember the angels in heaven rejoice at the saving of a lost soul, and there's been millions and millions through the years...that's a lot of rejoicing.
And this isn't a respond in defense of 'the system' of today's 'church', it's just a response to encourage us to remember that Christ IS in charge of His Body and He WILL perfect it according to His perfect plan.....Now who makes up that Body and what are they doing daily as to obedience to God's Word and being lead of The Spirit...that's a different discussion altogether.
“But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,”
|
|
| |
| Re: The Bridegroom delaying his coming [message #11438 is a reply to message #11437] |
Fri, 28 November 2014 12:38 |
Mark L
Messages: 860
Registered: October 2006
Location: Canada |
Senior Member |
|
|
| Gary wrote on Fri, 28 November 2014 06:23 |
The problem is that, Hobart Freeman said, He was not a prophet
|
I think he did say that. He had the qualifications as well. I only mentioned his name though to jog peoples memories. My point though was I think the gog war is on the horizon
You can read
"Meanderings on Scripture by Mark
https://mlederman.substack.com/
|
|
|
| Re: The Bridegroom delaying his coming [message #11439 is a reply to message #11438] |
Fri, 28 November 2014 21:42 |
|
Gary
Messages: 1025
Registered: August 2008
Location: Indiana |
Senior Member |
|
|
| Mark L wrote on Fri, 28 November 2014 07:38 |
| Gary wrote on Fri, 28 November 2014 06:23 |
The problem is that, Hobart Freeman said, He was not a prophet
|
I think he did say that. He had the qualifications as well. I only mentioned his name though to jog peoples memories. My point though was I think the gog war is on the horizon
|
My problem is I don't remember everything that happened.
He definitely had the qualifications I was trying the find the vision he had where he said, that God was going to use the Black race to judge America,
for what happened in the past. I think it was in the ethic series, but not for sure on that. It makes me wonder with what is taking place all over the country here. I'd love to have a trans script of that vision.
I don't know if you heard or read the vision David Wilkerson had concerning Russia, where he said that one day the iron curtain would slam shut and we would see the worst blood bath in history. That time may be drawing near.
I do agree though that we are close to Gog and Magog taking place. When this happens it will trigger the seven years of Tribulation. I don't know if its immediate or will there be a time span between this war and the introduction of the Anti-Christ to the world scene.
I'm not ruling out gaps of time taking place between the events predicted in the Bible. Once the Anti-Christ comes into power and rules the world, everything will be set into motion for the time of the end. They'll be no turning back the clock then and no one will second guess what is taking place. Those with ears to hear and eyes to see will understand by the Spirit.
Gary
|
|
|
| Re: The Bridegroom delaying his coming [message #11479 is a reply to message #11439] |
Sat, 24 January 2015 19:26 |
Mark L
Messages: 860
Registered: October 2006
Location: Canada |
Senior Member |
|
|
I wanted to respond to some of the things said here in response to what I said. One thing I have learned in my 40 yrs as an adult xian interested in end time stuff is not to get too dogmatic about it. God has his own agenda and timeline and while we have a broad outline we certainly don't have all the details. I never thought for eg we would get of the 70's before the rapture occurred.
So to me that shows that God is the one who will initiate any war, & thus needs not to` turn the clock back...` As Gary said -
Predestination, Providence, etc all things are set in motion, Why would the Lord need to change anything that He has foreordained from the beginning is what I am driving at.
I believe that God had predestined and ordained all things down to the tinniest detail. You simply don't see the Lord acting that way toward his creation though. As though everything was on a predetermined plan. This a really big subject and I want to set out some of my thoughts on it sometime soon.
For now let me say this. "If" God "as it were" turned the clock back then it was something he preordained from all eternity along with everything else. The same with the "bridegroom delaying his coming" Part of a preordained plan in eternity. We could have differing opinions on what that means but it is on the page and in context to end times. Matt 25/5
One of the ways God fulfills his will in this 4 dimensional universe is by prophetic utterance through the mouth of prophets and apostles. In other words he brings his purposes out of the spiritual realm into this one through those offices. I think that was the case here. God reaching into this world to turn events in the direction he wanted them to go. In this case holding back this war.
[Updated on: Sat, 24 January 2015 20:18]
You can read
"Meanderings on Scripture by Mark
https://mlederman.substack.com/
|
|
|
| Re: The Bridegroom delaying his coming [message #11480 is a reply to message #11479] |
Sat, 24 January 2015 19:36 |
Mark L
Messages: 860
Registered: October 2006
Location: Canada |
Senior Member |
|
|
A friend of mine read my notes here and commented on them. She pointed out the Ps 83 war to me. This was something I have never heard of until recently when Marilyn (?) commented on it. As I said I don't get too dogmatic on end time stuff but it is my belief we are in the time the Bridegroom has delayed his coming and it is going to end with a bang.
I just googled gog and magog. Is there ever a lot of opinions and info out there. I'd be interested in Williams opinion. He sometimes has a different take on stuff.
You can read
"Meanderings on Scripture by Mark
https://mlederman.substack.com/
|
|
|
| Re: The Bridegroom delaying his coming [message #11481 is a reply to message #11479] |
Sun, 25 January 2015 14:42 |
|
Gary
Messages: 1025
Registered: August 2008
Location: Indiana |
Senior Member |
|
|
| Mark L wrote on Sat, 24 January 2015 14:26 |
I wanted to respond to some of the things said here in response to what I said. One thing I have learned in my 40 yrs as an adult xian interested in end time stuff is not to get too dogmatic about it. God has his own agenda and timeline and while we have a broad outline we certainly don't have all the details. I never thought for eg we would get of the 70's before the rapture occurred.
So to me that shows that God is the one who will initiate any war, & thus needs not to` turn the clock back...` As Gary said -
Predestination, Providence, etc all things are set in motion, Why would the Lord need to change anything that He has foreordained from the beginning is what I am driving at.
I believe that God had predestined and ordained all things down to the tinniest detail. You simply don't see the Lord acting that way toward his creation though. As though everything was on a predetermined plan. This a really big subject and I want to set out some of my thoughts on it sometime soon.
For now let me say this. "If" God "as it were" turned the clock back then it was something he preordained from all eternity along with everything else. The same with the "bridegroom delaying his coming" Part of a preordained plan in eternity. We could have differing opinions on what that means but it is on the page and in context to end times. Matt 25/5
One of the ways God fulfills his will in this 4 dimensional universe is by prophetic utterance through the mouth of prophets and apostles. In other words he brings his purposes out of the spiritual realm into this one through those offices. I think that was the case here. God reaching into this world to turn events in the direction he wanted them to go. In this case holding back this war.
|
Mark,
Your right about all the opinions. We have over 2000 years of opinions on what is to take place. Then when it doesn't happen everyone rearranges their theology to fit their view.
When you think about the scriptures there are a lot of "gaps" on certain events and this may be in every area of Christianity.
One example is we see the disciples walking with Jesus when He was on the earth and then we see what took place after He ascended to heaven. What we don't see is what went on during their day to day lives and how they dealt with everyday common things. So I think every church to some degree tries to fill in the gaps and explain what we need to do today, or what the scriptures mean to say.
I think its better to take the information and see it for what it says and not add to it or take away. This is where a lot of churches end up with so many different doctrines, they try to fill in the gaps and add to what it says.
In the OT the Jews did the same thing. They filled in the gaps and ended up with their own traditional view that was actually opposed to what the Bible was trying to say. This is why they missed who Jesus really was because they followed what they thought the OT said.
Churches can fall into the same snare in many areas even in all this end time stuff by adding what they think will happen, or what they think we need to do.
I think its much harder to be Spirit led and let God do it His way, because humanity always wants it our way.
I hope all this makes sense, just trying to share what I think has gone on and what will go on in the future. In other words its easy to miss what the Bible is saying because we try to make world events fit any given scenario we find in the Bible.
I'm only stating this, while agreeing with what you shared. I believe God is in total control and everything will happen according to His Will and what will take place. I also think there is still somethings hidden that will be revealed the closer we get to the end of time. This is predicted in Daniel and will come to pass.
On the world scene it sure looks like things are being set in motion for what is to take place. I think that once everything falls into place it will go quite rapidly.
Gary
|
|
|
| Re: The Bridegroom delaying his coming [message #11482 is a reply to message #11481] |
Sun, 25 January 2015 18:04 |
 |
william
Messages: 1468
Registered: January 2006 |
Senior Member
Administrator |
|
|
Hi Gary,
You said:
| Quote: |
One example is we see the disciples walking with Jesus when He was on the earth and then we see what took place after He ascended to heaven. What we don't see is what went on during their day to day lives and how they dealt with everyday common things. So I think every church to some degree tries to fill in the gaps and explain what we need to do today, or what the scriptures mean to say.
|
I agree. The problem is the filling-in-the-gaps part!
Given the tendency of man to want to control things I don't think it should be a surprise when the church starts to do the same thing. People in authority love it when folks jump when they say jump... again, I guess this is just that desire for control.
Now what I'm about to say is NOT intended to be taken as William's Statement-of-Faith-on-the-State-of-Affairs-for-Former-or-Pre sent-Faith-Assembly-People.
I'm just thinking out loud here and the example I'm using is one that most of us are familiar with... that being the huge emphasis on the preparation for the end-time-move of God in this generation, i.e. the Gideon's Army boot camp (that never ends!)
Like you said Gary, the gaps that needed to be filled in --in our case at least-- were filled in with 24/7 preparation. This, in some cases, left other kinds of gaps in our own lives... I mean-- who prepares themselves for the everyday mundane routine of 'the daily grind' when there is so much heavenly warfare that must be accomplished in order to prepare the bride(us) for the bridegroom's return? For instance, why bother with education for a good job when we SHOULD be getting ready for the SECOND COMING OF JESUS!?
Now please, don't get me wrong --I AM THANKFUL FOR THE BOOT CAMP and have NO REGRETS but I do think a more rounded preparation for other aspects of life might have been proper... we are, after all, seeking to fill in the gaps you mentioned!
The disciples in the NT were kind of forced into what comes across as extreme Christian living (unusual times calls for unusual measures!) by the persecution they were enduring.
We almost had to manufacture our own persecution to justify our boot camp existence! (Don't take that statement too far because I know that in many cases just living the Christian life will invite persecution, but let's face it, we haven't been forced out of our homes under the threat of martyrdom, like the NT Christians... yet. <grin>)
Think about the first coming of Jesus... as far as I can tell not one of those who were first chosen were doing anything along the lines of boot-camp training. They were just living their lives and suddenly they were selected for their mission. After preparing them extensively for about 3 years they were sent forth with one specific task of spreading the Gospel. This task was accomplished by the persecution that providentially invaded their normal lives. Who knows if the Gospel would have ever spread as effectively as it did without that persecution!
But it would have... eventually... because Jesus told them to spread the good news and if we want to obey our Lord then we at some point will get around to doing that particular task which, btw, was the only specific task given to the Church.
Yes, it is important to teach those new converts about holy living (not as defined by those gap-fillers but by example and by teaching them the importance of yielding to the Holy Spirit.)
I've rambled on so much that I've forgotten what point I was trying to make!
I guess I'd like to say that I'm not advocating apathy as a replacement for the boot-camp mentality but I am saying that perhaps a little less fervency in some aspects of the waiting-on-the-mountain-for-Jesus'-return-while-we-sharpen-o ur-swords, might be in order.
This may allow us the opportunity for somewhat of a more natural carrying out of our purpose in this limited span of years that we call 'life'. That purpose, of course, is the spreading of the good-news as we go about the less-than-sensational daily grind!
Blessings,
William
I want to believe!
|
|
|
| Re: The Bridegroom delaying his coming [message #11483 is a reply to message #11482] |
Sun, 25 January 2015 19:51 |
james
Messages: 2142
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL |
Senior Member |
|
|
I agree that "fill-in-the-gaps" mentality has resulted in a LOT of various opinions as reflected by the number of denominations, who, by the way, are each right........in their own eyes.(just as we are prone to be as humans...right in our own eyes. Thank God for giving us His Word for a standard and His Spirit to help us understand and live it.
As Mark stated, I thought we would never get past the 70's and 80's before The Lord returned....but we did and now we see differently, or perhaps more maturely.
Also I agree with William's thoughts on 'the boot camp' focus and little preparation for providing for families by getting training for decent jobs. But there again we had scripture to justify our stance..."take no thought..."
Praise God for His patience with us, He alone is worthy of our worship and praise....Jesus IS returning, His Word clearly states it...yet even though He told us no one but God The Father knows the time, people continue to set dates, seasons, and times...so far they've all been wrong....one would think folks would learn...
“But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,”
|
|
|
| Re: The Bridegroom delaying his coming [message #11484 is a reply to message #11483] |
Sun, 25 January 2015 21:52 |
Marilyn Crow
Messages: 598
Registered: September 2013
Location: Australia |
Senior Member |
|
|
Hi fellas,
I certainly agree with you & thought these scriptures would confirm what is being presented, also.
But we urge you, brethren, that you increase more & more (in love towards one another); & you aspire to lead a quiet life, to mind your own business, & to work with your own hands, as we commanded you, that you may walk properly towards those who are outside, & that you may lack nothing.
But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you should sorrow as others who have no hope. for if we believe that Jesus died & rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive & remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, & the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive & remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
Therefore comfort one another with these words. (1 Thess. 4: 10 - 18)
Notice that the `lead a quiet life` part is just before Paul talking about the `catching away` of the Body of Christ.`
Interesting, ay. Marilyn.
Marilyn C
|
|
|
| Re: The Bridegroom delaying his coming [message #11487 is a reply to message #11482] |
Wed, 28 January 2015 16:45 |
|
Gary
Messages: 1025
Registered: August 2008
Location: Indiana |
Senior Member |
|
|
| Quote: |
William Wrote: I agree. The problem is the filling-in-the-gaps part!
Given the tendency of man to want to control things I don't think it should be a surprise when the church starts to do the same thing. People in authority love it when folks jump when they say jump... again, I guess this is just that desire for control.
Now what I'm about to say is NOT intended to be taken as William's Statement-of-Faith-on-the-State-of-Affairs-for-Former-or-Pre sent-Faith-Assembly-People.
I'm just thinking out loud here and the example I'm using is one that most of us are familiar with... that being the huge emphasis on the preparation for the end-time-move of God in this generation, i.e. the Gideon's Army boot camp (that never ends!)
Like you said Gary, the gaps that needed to be filled in --in our case at least-- were filled in with 24/7 preparation. This, in some cases, left other kinds of gaps in our own lives... I mean-- who prepares themselves for the everyday mundane routine of 'the daily grind' when there is so much heavenly warfare that must be accomplished in order to prepare the bride(us) for the bridegroom's return? For instance, why bother with education for a good job when we SHOULD be getting ready for the SECOND COMING OF JESUS!?
|
William,
I know what you mean here. I think there is something in mankind that wants to be "someone" important and have some type of authority over people. Give a guy a title and he then becomes the leading authority. Then this is carried over into the church world.
I only had heard of one minister who was the instrument of a great revival I believe it was in wales, almost everyone turned to Christ. Instead of this man starting some huge mega church he stepped down and got out of the ministry.
I understand the problem that existed as you stated, finding the balance is another story. At the same time I realize what is "80 short years" on this earth if that is what the Lord allows us.
I think now its more important about developing an individual relationship with the Lord as we go through our daily lives. No one can understand what is going on within each of us, (the hidden man of the heart), and will miss the whole point, you know the scripture, man looks upon the outward appearance but God looks upon the heart. We still have to function in this world in our daily lives.
I will say that when you look at this old world compared to 40 years ago it sure seems like were headed for the end of all things. Maybe each generation is faced with this scenario. I would of thought if you lived when Hitler was trying to conquer the world for his thousand year reign, you would of thought this is the Antichrist for sure.
With all that said we just still can only live one day at a time, and who knows what each new day will bring our way.
Anyway like Mark said: One thing I have learned in my 40 yrs as an adult xian interested in end time stuff is not to get too dogmatic about it. God has his own agenda and timeline and while we have a broad outline we certainly don't have all the details.
That pretty much sums it up.
Gary
P.S. Hi Marilyn good scriptures there.
|
|
|
| Re: The Bridegroom delaying his coming [message #11647 is a reply to message #11390] |
Thu, 09 July 2015 14:58 |
Mark L
Messages: 860
Registered: October 2006
Location: Canada |
Senior Member |
|
|
I was listening to some old tapes and entirely by accident I found that prophesy by Hef. I've put an attachment with the prophesy below. To recap what I said earlier.
• I believe that “at times” HEF stood in the office of a prophet
• This prophecy was one of those times
• Many times in the bible when God spoke he had more in mind and a greater scope than the immediate prophecy suggested. This is the case here.
• One of the ways God brings his purposes and will to pass in this world from his is prophesy through the “office of a prophet” As opposed to simple inspired prophecy from a disciple
What I said was this
• We are living in the end times. The period of the endtimes we are living in is “The time the bridegroom has delayed his coming” Matt. 25/1-13 It says in vs 5 right in context to the return of the Lord that he will delay his coming. We are now in that time.
• That time started with the giving of this prophesy. Which I believe was the holding back of the war of Gog and Magog. Ezek. 37-39 Never fulfilled and right in context to end times.
• In the early 1980’s Israel invaded Lebanon and to the complete surprise of the entire world found mountains of soviet military equipment. Obviously there in preparation for an invasion. I believe it was there for the war of Gog and Magog.
• We have all believed for a long time that we are in the endtimes yet where do we see in any significant way Matt 24 & Luke 21 etc. end time events happening.
• This time “the bridegroom delaying his coming" will end with the going forth of the war of Gog and Magog.
• I don’t believe that war is about to happen but it is definitely on the horizon
• Following that war end time events will begin to move forward again. Some of my thoughts on that were earlier in the thread
BTW the tape the prophesy is on is "Give me this Mountain" Part of the series on Admonitions in Faith for Overcomers.
[Updated on: Thu, 09 July 2015 15:27]
You can read
"Meanderings on Scripture by Mark
https://mlederman.substack.com/
|
|
|
| Re: The Bridegroom delaying his coming [message #11649 is a reply to message #11647] |
Fri, 10 July 2015 02:06 |
Marilyn Crow
Messages: 598
Registered: September 2013
Location: Australia |
Senior Member |
|
|
Hi MarkL,
I think this is a very interesting question you have raised –
`Why does the Bridegroom delay, tarry.` (Matt. 25: 5)
My understanding is that the Bridegroom is the Lord, as we all believe & that the Bride is Israel.
`For your maker is your husband, the Lord of hosts is His name; & your Redeemer is the Holy one of Israel.` (Isa. 54: 5)
`I will betroth you to me forever; Yes, I will betroth you to me in righteousness & justice,...` (Hosea 2: 19)
The prophet Daniel, by the Holy Spirit told Israel that they would have 490 years (70 x 7) till their chastisement was completed. Then God would restore them to Himself. However only 483 years were completed up till the time of Christ being acclaimed, in the triumphal entry into Jerusalem. (Dan. 9: 24)
So Israel only had 7 more years to go but they rejected the Lord. He died, rose again & ascended to the Father. He could have come for Israel then but God had another group, the Body of Christ, that was not known till then. So for nearly 2,000 years Christ has been building & maturing His Body & this has caused the `delay, the tarrying,` of the Lord to come again for the nation of Israel.
Marilyn.
[Updated on: Fri, 10 July 2015 07:49]
Marilyn C
|
|
| | | |
| Re: The Bridegroom delaying his coming [message #11657 is a reply to message #11652] |
Sun, 12 July 2015 06:29 |
Marilyn Crow
Messages: 598
Registered: September 2013
Location: Australia |
Senior Member |
|
|
Hi Gary,
So is this what you are meaning - that when God says this to Israel, `betroth you to me forever...` that He really wasn`t meaning it?
`For your maker is your husband, the Lord of hosts is His name; & your Redeemer is the Holy one of Israel.` (Isa. 54: 5)
`I will betroth you to me forever; Yes, I will betroth you to me in righteousness & justice,...` (Hosea 2: 19)
And when Jesus was talking to the people of Israel about His coming for them as the bridegroom, (10 virgins) then He really wasn`t meaning it also?
Marilyn.
Marilyn C
|
|
|
| Re: The Bridegroom delaying his coming [message #12242 is a reply to message #11390] |
Mon, 15 May 2017 01:29 |
Mark L
Messages: 860
Registered: October 2006
Location: Canada |
Senior Member |
|
|
I was reading some of my NT theology notes by HEF looking for info on another subject when . . .
I was shocked! SHOCKED!
To read Bro HEF disagrees with my opinion on the timing of the Gog Magog war.
In a nutshell here is what he said (at least in my notes)
The question was . . . is the Rev. 20 Gog war the same as the Ezek. 38-39 Gog war.
3 main views
- Gog and Magog is equated with the battle of Armageddon at the close of the trib.
- Gog and Magog is equated with the battle of Armageddon at the close of the millennium.
- biblical view (in HEF's opinion) Gog and Magog is not the battle of Armageddon but occurs during the first half of the trib after the antichrist has signed a peace treaty with Israel.
There are a number of reasons why I disagree. Here are 2.
- it takes 7 yrs to clean up after the battle
- for the antichrist to rise to world power Russia along with China and (gulp) America have to be removed as world powers.
So much of the commentary I read from the christian world seems to say that the world will go on more or less as it is then the antichrist rises the rapture happens and then the trib.
My view in a nutshell is that the Gog war happens leading to the beginning of sorrows then the the sorrows then the trib.
As I have said before on here one can't get too dogmatic about end time events. We simply don't have enough info. We are certainly allowed to have opinions though.
[Updated on: Mon, 15 May 2017 02:11]
You can read
"Meanderings on Scripture by Mark
https://mlederman.substack.com/
|
|
|
| Re: The Bridegroom delaying his coming [message #12304 is a reply to message #12242] |
Sat, 02 December 2017 16:11 |
Mark L
Messages: 860
Registered: October 2006
Location: Canada |
Senior Member |
|
|
In the News
I think what we are seeing here is the leadup (or at least the maneuvering) to the war of Gog and Magog. As I have said before to mount a serious war you have to have significant amounts of military equipment in place.
Both Iran and Russia are building or trying to build permanent bases in Syria. Russia is building a permanent naval base in Syria. Iran is trying to.
On this issue the US Gov't seems to be asleep at the wheel.
With Syrian and Lebanese media reporting Israel carried out a missile strike overnight ... Israel appears to have dramatically upped the ante regarding the Islamic republic’s military presence in Syria, turning its threats into action... Top Israeli officials have in recent months repeatedly warned Israel will not tolerate an Iranian military presence in Syria.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/with-reported-airstrike-israel -puts-syria-and-iran-on-notice/
On another related issue the US Administration is reportedly going to move the US Embassy to Jerusalem. A move I agree with but is almost certainly going to cause more turmoil in the region. I have Israeli internet friends who are very much against it as they are concerned for their family in Israel.
Zech. 12/2
[Updated on: Sat, 02 December 2017 22:34]
You can read
"Meanderings on Scripture by Mark
https://mlederman.substack.com/
|
|
|
| Re: The Bridegroom delaying his coming [message #12897 is a reply to message #12304] |
Tue, 05 November 2019 20:58 |
Mark L
Messages: 860
Registered: October 2006
Location: Canada |
Senior Member |
|
|
A couple of further thoughts on end times. As I said above you can really see Russia moving into the middle east with the mess going on with Syria and now the Kurds. This I believe in preparation for the war of Gog and Magog. Armies don't move across the world in hours or even days so the Russian military buildup in the region is preparing for that war.
Also the hostility developing between Turkey and Israel is in preparation for that war. The two countries have always been close with strong ties especially in the senior military. Erdogan the Turkish leader after the attempted coup a few years ago purged the entire leadership of the Turkish military which had strong ties to Israel. I wondered for a long time how Turkey would be involved but its not hard to see now.
I had a thought about the falling away. 11 Thess. 2/3 "that day shall not come unless there be a falling away first" Bro HEF believed we are in the midst of that falling away right now. There is obviously a lot of truth to that. I just read a pew research report that said the largest religious group among millemials is " no religion" I don't think that is the endtime sign of the falling away though. I've stated above in this thread that . . .
Following this war and rebuilding of the temple a unreasoning resentment toward Jews and Christians will begin. Luke 21/12. Eventually culminating in an implacable hatred.
Without getting too dogmatic here I could see the falling away happening as that persecution intensifies. In this context I am using the word "christian" to mean anyone who sees themself as one. From the most liberal to the most conservative. In other words anyone who says they are. Those who don't particularly care (easter & xmas) and those not deeply rooted. Those maybe saved but who value their own life more or their family more.
From Gods side he is purging and purifying his church. From the devils side he is preparing the world for the reign and worship of the Antichrist. So its not difficult for me to see most of "christendom" departing christianity all churches closed and only the really serious left.
Incidently . . . I have long believed that those who cling to xmas etc are in for a rude shock when the antichrist takes it away.
You can read
"Meanderings on Scripture by Mark
https://mlederman.substack.com/
|
|
| |
| Re: The Bridegroom delaying his coming [message #13463 is a reply to message #12931] |
Sun, 24 May 2020 01:26 |
Mark L
Messages: 860
Registered: October 2006
Location: Canada |
Senior Member |
|
|
I just finished putting up Bro Freeman's notes on NT theology Gog and Magog. I have some thoughts and differences of opinion with them. I wanted to put them here as they are his notes and I don't want to clutter them with my thoughts.
1. Gomer equated with Germany. He mentioned specifically East Germany which as to what was future to him is history to us. That being that there is no more East Germany only Germany reunited. This is an excellent reason why you can't get too dogmatic about end-time events. I found it interesting that Bro Freeman himself said on these tapes you can't get too dogmatic on these issues. That of course didn't stop him won't stop me or Bro. Toby or anybody else.
Is it modern Germany? I personally can't see it. For that to happen it would have to be entirely supernatural or to arise a very strong nationalistic anti-Semitic gov't or something similar. We'll just have to wait and see.
I looked up Gomer online and there are various opinions but I was shocked SHOCKED to read on Wiki
In later times, some scholars connected them (gomer) with the Welsh people
2. Generations. Bro Hef mentioned Luke 21/24 the restoration of Jerusalem with vs 32 this "generation" shall not pass away. After a lot of years of thinking what is a generation the one that satisfies me is that those living at the time of that restoration will not pass from the earth.
3. I would like to disagree completely with bro Hef on the Ezek war taking place in the mid-trib for 2 good reasons
a. Ezek 39/9 There is 7 year period spoken of in that vs following the war. For it to be mid-trib there simply isn't 7 yrs left in history before the millennium. Whatever it means there has to be 7 yrs after the war. So it is impossible to be in the trib.
b. Bro. Hef clearly says Gog invades Israel. Anti-christ goes out to war with him in the mid trib. He bases that on Dan. 11/44 (tidings out of the east and the north)and some other vs.
My problem with that is that Anti-christ doesn't destroy Gog. God does supernaturally. fire from heaven. I do agree the Gog war is a sign to Jews and gentiles for the reasons I gave in the above posts.
Bro Freeman believes based on the scriptures he gave that the Ezek 38 Gog war has to occur in the trib so it can't be at the end it can't be at the beginning so it must be in the middle.
I went over the tape several times to be sure I didn't misrepresent his position.
My position on the Ezek Gog and Magog war as I stated at length above with lots of reasons is
We are in the time the bridegroom has "delayed his coming" Matt. 25
It began with the holding back of the Ezek Gog war
It will end with going forth of that war
End time events held back during this time ie: the beginning of sorrows persecution etc. will again commence counting down to the trib.
You can read
"Meanderings on Scripture by Mark
https://mlederman.substack.com/
|
|
|
| Re: The Bridegroom delaying his coming [message #13465 is a reply to message #13463] |
Sun, 24 May 2020 03:57 |
|
william
Messages: 1468
Registered: January 2006 |
Senior Member
Administrator |
|
|
If I'm understanding you correctly your disagreement is over the time of the Gog invasion: mid-trib verses pre-trib (or at least at the beginning of the tribulation?) Anyway, I do think that the Gog invasion and Armageddon are two events, but I confess to not having given it much thought.
I think the whole "how long is a generation thing" is a bit overblown since we've already got an OT example where Methuselah (the oldest man ever recorded!) lived 969 years. Apparently, if you do the math he died in the year that the flood started. I don't think you could say that Methuselah's generation had completely passed away until he himself died. Interestingly enough (although I'm not trying to put any stock in it's significance!) the second oldest man, Jared, lived 962 years... seven years short of the record!
Blessings,
William
[Updated on: Sun, 24 May 2020 05:23]
I want to believe!
|
|
|
Goto Forum:
Current Time: Mon Dec 23 17:16:41 UTC 2024
Total time taken to generate the page: 0.00996 seconds
|
Members
Search
Help
Register
Login
Home
E-mail to friend 
I was mainly throwing in a couple cents worth of valued opinions.
