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| Bro Harold [message #7833] |
Sun, 22 May 2011 00:45  |
 Mark L
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was wrong I guess. Harold Camping for you "eschew the world" types who don't read the newspaper or its equivalent. Actually you would pretty much have to be on Mars not to know about it. Nothing unusual about this. What is unusual is how the world has picked it up.
I used to listen to his answer program on family radio when I drove in the states. I always thought he had some funny opinions on interpreting the bible. He often gave good answers to peoples questions though. Sometimes in deep thoughtful ways.
Anyway my take is he is a christian with some crazy opinions. Lots of others are calling him a false prophet. I think that is going too far although I'm very uneasy about all those following him who sold houses etc. Not good.
Evidently people in the world were having rapture parties and really playing it up.
I just read on a travel forum I frequent that he believes he made a mistake and it is really May 28th.
I would fall off my chair if anyone here actually agreed with him but thought it was worth a comment.
I'd like to add on the false prophet issue . . . that unless someone is really off in some doctrinal way (like JDS) I'm careful how I label them. I do think it is very problematic in the church (worldwide) and if it was my church it wouldn't be tolerated. And it should be spoken to and commented on.
My point is simply that history is full of true sincere Christians who stuck with the fundamentals of the faith who had some weird strange offbeat ideas. Calvin for eg. You would be surprised how many christian leaders down through history got a revelation that they were invulnerable to arrow/spears etc. and led the troops into battle and of course got killed.
I'm sure some of you will disagree with me on the false prophet/teacher issue. You may even be right.
You can read
"Meanderings on Scripture by Mark
https://mlederman.substack.com/
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| Re: Bro Harold [message #7838 is a reply to message #7836] |
Sun, 22 May 2011 16:50  |
james
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Mark, obviously your opinion of Harold Camping is different than some folks...I tend to agree with Gillyann concerning him being a false prophet. That's not an attempt to discredit you or look down on your views, and Hey! You might be right, maybe he is a brother, but I don't see someone who leads thousands of people into error (to the point that many quit their jobs, emptied their lives savings, and blindly followed him) and has given TWO prophecies as to the day Jesus returns, and both times IT DIDN'T HAPPEN. That is a 'false' prophecy...for SURE.
btw: according to published accounts, Campings ministry (non-profit tax exempt) is worth millions and millions of dollars...still is today, what about those who gave or donated everything they had? What are they worth this morning?
Now I didn't go calling him names (like 'kook') or belittling him, because like Gillyann, I was trying to use the attention given the subject 'Rapture' as an introduction to share Biblical truths with those who were scoffing. I don't know anyone personally who got caught up in it, but if I encounter someone who did I believe The Holy Spirit would have me encourage them and point them to the truth, as I posted on the 'Bulletin Board'. And as to the comment concerning Pauls' condemnation of the Galatians in Gal.3, he was addressing their returning to legalism and works and turning from the faith message that had been delivered unto them. But look at the whole epistle in context, even though they'd strayed from the true gospel and returned to works of the flesh, misusing the liberty given them, still he ministered the truth to them, in love.
Those who have been deceived by these false prophecies (rapture 5/21/2011)need to repent, and be ministered to by those, who by God's grace, were kept from the deception. Encouraged in The Lord, and taught to discern and seek the Scriptures concerning what ANY man says as to 'thus sayeth The Lord'.
Just a thought, I wonder if HEF had prophecied a date for the return of The Lord, back in the late 70's- early 80's, how many would have believed him and done as these people today have done? Just wondering out loud...I mean let's be honest folks, not everyone influenced by FA & HEF proved to be true disciples of Christ...could any of them have been saved with a little 'body ministry', encouragement, and love by those mature in the faith?
“But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,”
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| Re: Bro Harold [message #7841 is a reply to message #7840] |
Mon, 23 May 2011 00:59 |
james
Messages: 2142
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL |
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| moulder wrote on Sun, 22 May 2011 16:55 |
But you do bring up an interesting (perhaps unrelated) issue: How do we view people who have lived a christian life and then in their old age seem to espouse crazy ideas? I'm speaking specifically of those who develop Alzheimer's? Are they still considered brothers/sisters? Or does this disease not affect Christians?
There are some prominent examples where it seems as if some type of dementia has taken root.
Blessings,
William
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First thing William is that you're probably right about Camping, I just googled about his 'prophecies' and got a bunch of links...but if I google his 'predictions' there are a bunch of them too. Actually I couldn't (without spending hours listening to YouTube video) find him saying that God told him the date, so it would seem to be more of a prediction based on his faulty belief that he could in fact figure out the date using a number system.
Mark, I disagree with you much less about him being a false prophet...
I also apologize to anyone reading for mislabeling him as a false prophet. My mistake, but like William says, end results the same on his end. But I should be more dilligent in my research and presentation.
Now as far as old people getting cranky... 
I don't know anyone with Alzheimers, so I don't know if it affects Christians or not, but if cancer, diabetes, high blood pressure, arthritis, and the such affects Christians, then I don't see why wouldn't Alzheimers as well.(not to go into the message of divine health/healing and what I believe, just observing what professing Christians seem to be going through)
I do believe those are spirits and a Christian can be delivered and set free from all mental oppression, including dementia, depression, Alzheimers, and crankiness.
“But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,”
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| Re: Bro Harold [message #7842 is a reply to message #7841] |
Mon, 23 May 2011 02:00 |
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GWB
Messages: 708
Registered: March 2008
Location: Louisville, Ky area |
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I don't know guys. Maybe I am just too simple and don't get it.
A guy comes along, prophecies that judgement day is a specific time and date, and then it does not happen.
The Bible says that if a guy comes along, prophecies that judgement day is a specific time and date and it does not happen, he is a false prophet.
OK....health issues? If he is in charge of a multi-million dollar ministry, it seems he would not be in the "big chair" at the table. In most responsible ministries, if there are problems within the organization, the public is informed.
I am open to correction....absolutely. What don't I get? 
Shalom,
GWB
"Be still and know that I am God."
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| Re: Bro Harold [message #7845 is a reply to message #7842] |
Mon, 23 May 2011 13:09 |
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william
Messages: 1463
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GWB,
Okay, my opinion on this is evolving... (sorry!)
Remember when we held (and maybe still do!)to such diverse beliefs (based upon our interpretation of Scripture) as:
Hunters will not be used in this end-time work of God.
Overcomers will not wear sod*mite shoes.
Overcomers are those who have perfect vision or at the very least stopped wearing glasses (which is a lack of faith).
A woman wearing pants won't be raptured.
A woman with a short haircut is not an overcomer. (btw, one of the most godly women I know is completely bald.)
A TV in your home means you are not serious about God.
A believer in the hospital? Anathema!
I'm sure that there are hundreds of examples that could be added to this--all based upon our/someone's interpretation of scripture. These ideas/teachings are not the result of a false prophecy (at least not that I know of!) but are the result of one's interpretation and extrapolation of scripture. The predictive element of Camping's interpretation makes us want to label it as a prophetic utterance, but the predictive element was not lacking in some of our closely held beliefs and I don't think it could be said that we were influenced by a false prophet.
Grandom's implication that the Is 8:20 passage is to be applied to Camping and his followers, seems to indict every christian I know unless discrimination or context is taken into consideration.
Just some thoughts,
William
[Updated on: Mon, 23 May 2011 15:10]
I want to believe!
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| Re: Bro Harold [message #7848 is a reply to message #7846] |
Mon, 23 May 2011 15:53 |
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GWB
Messages: 708
Registered: March 2008
Location: Louisville, Ky area |
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Thanks William for your comments. At least this is making us think about important things happening in, what I believe, are the end-times.
The Bible says that no one knoweth the day or the hour of His return. Camping said he knew the day and hour of His return.
The billboard at the end of Main Street in New Albany, Indiana, where I live, says that Jesus is returning on May 21st...Repent, etc. The Bible says that not even the Son of Man knows the time of the return. So...according to the billboard from the followers of Camping, Jesus knew the time of His return wayyyy in advance.
The statement Camping made is false in itself according to the Word. If a sinner dies today, he goes to a place of torment (a holding place) until "judgement."
The Great White Throne Judgement for sinners does not occur until after the 1000 year reign of Jesus on this earth.
How could there be a "judgement day" when Revelation has not been totally fulfilled? Ezekeil 38 - 39 (the War of Tribulation) has not occured. The Antichrist has not been revealed, nor has there been a seven year peace pact with Israel for the Antichirst to break.
Even if you don't beleive that Camping is a false prophet, his statement was certainly false in itself. IMO
I understand your comments concerning how we conducted ourselves within our daily walk at FA. However, even things said from the pulpit of FA were not future predictions within themselves. They were not events that we are to look to for fulfillment of scripture.
Therefore, IMO, Camping even interpreted the scriptures falsely, let alone proclaiming his false interpretations to the world.
If I am wrong on any of the above, I will accept correction.
So...just what is a false prophet? What is an example statement a false prophet would make or say?
I still don't get it.
Shalom,
GWB
"Be still and know that I am God."
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| Re: Bro Harold [message #7851 is a reply to message #7848] |
Mon, 23 May 2011 16:28 |
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william
Messages: 1463
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| Quote: |
So...just what is a false prophet? What is an example statement a false prophet would make or say?
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Who is a true prophet? If a man on the street says that Jesus is coming soon, is he a prophet?
If I predict that there will be a resurrection of the righteous, does that make me a prophet or does that mean I'm prophesying?
What makes a prophet? What constitutes prophesying? Divine revelation (or we could say supernatural revelation) is prophetic, not some calculator of numbers.
But hey, call him a false prophet, it certainly fits the outward definition (i.e. he predicts therefore he is a prophet) but personally I don't think it measures up to what I believe constitutes the 'prophetic'.
The bible speaks of false teachers AND false prophets... Camping seems to fall into the former, the predictive element notwithstanding. A prophet doesn't always prophesy about the future, neither does a teacher always teach about the past, so judging one to be a prophet (false or otherwise) based solely on the predictive element isn't valid... in my opinion.
The false prophet mentioned in Revelation 13 isn't called a false prophet because he predicts the future, but because he is representing a false spirit, i.e. the super-natural.
Does that make more sense?
Blessings,
William
[Updated on: Mon, 23 May 2011 16:29]
I want to believe!
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| Re: Bro Harold [message #7854 is a reply to message #7852] |
Mon, 23 May 2011 17:29 |
Mark L
Messages: 855
Registered: October 2006
Location: Canada |
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Hmmm some interesting thoughts here. I gave some more thought to the false prophet issue. To me to be a false prophet means somewhere a line was crossed. Meaning someone has left the faith.
I can think of several ways. They were not of us in the first place. Or they were one of us but it just took this long in someones life for what he really was in his heart to come out. Or someone deliberately came in to deceive. Or they are an angel of light like the main leader of the JDS heresy. I wouldn't put Harold in any of those categories.
I would put him in the sincere but sincerely wrong (decieved?) category. The issue of influencing so many people is very troubling and would factor in as well. To my mind though regardless of how upsetting this is to Christendom is whether or not he personally has crossed the line and left the faith.
As far as I am aware he holds fast all the historic doctrines of the faith. Thats why I said in an earlier post that there have been many individuals down history who have taught some crazy things yet on the core issue of salvation were careful to maintain it.
Error like this should be soundly refuted in the strongest possible terms. He should removed from having any influence over people at all. I also hope I didn't come across as looking at him fondly and boys will be boys kind of way because I certainly didn't mean to.
The main issue to me is whether or not he is a false prophet. To be that he either was that from the start or has crossed the line and left the faith. From what I have seen neither of those fit him.
You can read
"Meanderings on Scripture by Mark
https://mlederman.substack.com/
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| Re: Bro Harold [message #7855 is a reply to message #7854] |
Mon, 23 May 2011 17:31 |
Mark L
Messages: 855
Registered: October 2006
Location: Canada |
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GWB said
The Bible says that if a guy comes along, prophecies that judgement day is a specific time and date and it does not happen, he is a false prophet.
I would say if someone identifies themself as a prophet functions in that office and is clearly identified that way then bringing forth a prophesy like that would either mean he is a false prophet or no prophet at all.
You can read
"Meanderings on Scripture by Mark
https://mlederman.substack.com/
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| Re: Bro Harold [message #7858 is a reply to message #7857] |
Mon, 23 May 2011 22:27 |
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GWB
Messages: 708
Registered: March 2008
Location: Louisville, Ky area |
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This info is from Harold Campings Family Radio Worldwide site:
http://www.familyradio.com/graphical/graphical_frame.html
"The words of Amos, who was among the herdmen of Tekoa, which he saw concerning Israel in the days of Uzziah king of Judah, and in the days of Jeroboam the son of Joash king of Israel, two years before the earthquake."
"Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets. The lion hath roared, who will not fear? the Lord GOD hath spoken, who can but prophesy?"
"Therefore thus will I do unto thee, O Israel: and because I will do this unto thee, prepare to meet thy God, O Israel."
Judgment; Rapture; May 21; 2011; Time; Family Radio; Internet; Church age; Wrath; Heathen; Shame; Rebellion
Scripture References:
Am 1:1
Am 3:7-8
Am 4:12
Camping is insinuating that he is a prophet and he is giving a prophecy of judgement and a rapture on May 21, 20ll.
Also, in reading OTProphets book today, a prophet should have sound doctrines. With what I have researched, Camping lines up perfectly with Jehovah's Witness and most of Herbert W. Armstrong. These two subjects are outlined in the New Testament section.
Not only do I believe he is a false prophet, I believe that he is also a heretic.
I still don't get it.
At this point, I respectfully agree to disagree.
Shalom,
GWB
"Be still and know that I am God."
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| Re: Bro Harold [message #7859 is a reply to message #7858] |
Mon, 23 May 2011 22:58 |
grandom
Messages: 404
Registered: October 2007 |
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With all the earthquakes,tornadoes,tsunamis, wars etc,false
prophets anyone want to deny Mat 24:8 This is The beginning of sorrows?
[Updated on: Mon, 23 May 2011 22:59]
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| Re: Bro Harold [message #7860 is a reply to message #7858] |
Mon, 23 May 2011 23:19 |
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william
Messages: 1463
Registered: January 2006 |
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GWB,
Unless he has changed, he is a Fundamentalist who does not believe in the prophetic; much less that he himself is a prophet.
He stated that it was through the study of scripture and the numbers in scripture that led him to that date. (I only saw three interviews on Youtube where he discussed how he arrived at this date, so I'm not claiming I know everything about his so-called ministry.)
For him to claim divine revelation, whether through a dream, voice, or by some other *supernatural* method, is contrary to the core beliefs of a Fundamentalist.
That he was deceived is without question.
But, as I said before--use the term; it matters not to me. (As long as you don't mind being wrong! <grin>)
Blessings,
William
[Updated on: Mon, 23 May 2011 23:23]
I want to believe!
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| Re: Bro Harold [message #7861 is a reply to message #7859] |
Mon, 23 May 2011 23:35 |
james
Messages: 2142
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL |
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| grandom wrote on Mon, 23 May 2011 17:58 |
With all the earthquakes,tornadoes,tsunamis, wars etc,false
prophets anyone want to deny Mat 24:8 This is The beginning of sorrows?
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Won't get an argument from me, I wrote almost the exact same thing on May 2, 2011 in the 'Last Days' thread, message #7795.
"Wars, rumors of wars, gobal unrest, earthquakes, tornadoes, droughts, moral decline, false prophets, love waxed cold...gotta be the last days, surely the beginning of sorrows. Matt.24:8 "
“But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,”
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| Re: Bro Harold [message #7863 is a reply to message #7862] |
Tue, 24 May 2011 00:08 |
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GWB
Messages: 708
Registered: March 2008
Location: Louisville, Ky area |
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I believe it is the beginning of sorrows too. Joplin, MO lost 75% of their town with approx. 100 deaths. It seems the storms, floods, earthquakes, etc. just don't stop. Like I said, the earth and creation is groaning and people can't help but notice.
@moulder -  I will continue to be open regarding him. At this point, I want nothing to do with him.
[Updated on: Tue, 24 May 2011 00:10]
Shalom,
GWB
"Be still and know that I am God."
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| Re: Bro Harold [message #7864 is a reply to message #7863] |
Tue, 24 May 2011 01:02 |
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william
Messages: 1463
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GWB,
Don't be open to reading about him on my account... if I've left that impression, I'm sorry. I wouldn't give him the time of day. Anyone who would still want to listen to or in any way be a part of his ministry, after all of this, has to have been given over to strong delusion. Even if he hadn't set a date (twice) I wouldn't waste my time. I like to listen to short-wave radio and he is on regularly, but like I said, I stopped listening to him after he made his stance known toward the modern-day outpouring of the Holy Spirit a long time ago. Even with a fuzzy memory of the exact thing he said, whatever it was, I determined that he wasn't worth listening to.
That's not to say that he isn't redeemable or maybe couldn't come out with some good stuff now and again but I don't believe he's my project!
Blessings,
William
I want to believe!
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| Re: Bro Harold [message #7865 is a reply to message #7864] |
Tue, 24 May 2011 02:19 |
james
Messages: 2142
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL |
Senior Member |
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Shoot fire, William, just when I was fixing to join up with Bro Harold you go and burst my bubble. I was thinking he'd probably get it right next time...You know the old occult based saying, "third time's a charm", meaning surely he'll get it eventually. Course there's the other saying about, "three strikes and you're out".
Seriously, I'm just glad to seesomething spark some interest and get folks involved. Now if we can just put this dead horse to bed and move on to something of a little more substance with the same level of enthusiasm.
“But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,”
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| Re: Bro Harold [message #7870 is a reply to message #7869] |
Fri, 27 May 2011 02:04 |
james
Messages: 2142
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL |
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One final thought concerning Harold Camping and his May 21,2011 prediction. I don't find anywhere where he claims to be a prophet, I do believe some of what he teaches is false (there's always some truth mixed in with most false doctrines) , so I think he is a deceiver. In Mark 13:5 Jesus says,"...Take heed lest any man deceive you." and He then goes on to tell us (prophecy) what to expect in the last days.
This failure by a man strenghtens and encourages my faith in God's Word, as it is just another example of the fulfillment of that which Jesus spoke. If we'll 'take heed' to what He tells us, we'll not be deceived, that, to me is comforting and encouraging.
[Updated on: Fri, 27 May 2011 02:07]
“But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,”
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| Re: Bro Harold [message #7880 is a reply to message #7873] |
Sat, 28 May 2011 16:06 |
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GWB
Messages: 708
Registered: March 2008
Location: Louisville, Ky area |
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James wrote:
"One final thought concerning Harold Camping and his May 21,2011 prediction. I don't find anywhere where he claims to be a prophet, I do believe some of what he teaches is false (there's always some truth mixed in with most false doctrines) , so I think he is a deceiver. In Mark 13:5 Jesus says,"...Take heed lest any man deceive you." and He then goes on to tell us (prophecy) what to expect in the last days."
I used to prophecy regarding Dr. Freeman's teachings (all glory to Him, just trying to make a point) point by point before the teaching was given. I have never called myself a "prophetess." If my prophecy would have been wrong on that particular night, would I have been a "deceiver or a "false prophetess?" Or, maybe I would have been a woman standing there holding a baby, babbling deception because I was tired, old, or was battling Alzheimers. So... I would have then been called a false babbler?
Would Dr. Freeman have said, "I need to correct a false deception given tonight or, I need to correct a false prophecy given tonight, or I need to correct a false babbler tonight?" Would Jerry start playing a Blood song on his guitar if it was really wacko? It happened many times due to a false prophecy.
Or, better yet, if I got up, and said, "Judgement Day is May 21, 2011!" What do you think Bro. Freeman would have called that? A false, deception? I don't think so. And, Jerry would have, for sure started playing a Blood song.
I believe that regardless of how the man came to his conclusions, he prophesied an event + it did not happen = false prophey = false prophet at that time. I don't care if he does or does not say he is a prophet, he tried to operate within that gift.
So...what entails a false prophecy? What makes up a prophet? Does anyone have an example word for word. Prophecy is used to exhort, encourge, or predict. If one prophecies anything are they a prophet or prophetess at that particular time? These things are all considered prophecy. Camping was not "teaching" the world so he could not be determined a false teacher teaching deception. He was predicting to the world an event. He was exhorting the world to repent because judgment day was May 21, 2011. He was encouraging the world to repent. He was prohesying.
Again, if a guy comes along, prophecies (exhorts, encourages, or predicts) an event, and it does not happen, could you really say he is a "deceiver" according to the Word?
Bible: If a guy comes along, prophecies an event, exhorts about an event that does line up with the Word, or predicts an event (especially an exact date and time), and it does not happen, he is a false prophet.
I really think it is simple to me. He prophesied, it did not happen, he missed it with his prophecy. Therefore, he is a false prophet, regardless of his intentions.
If one exhorts, encourages, or predicts something that does not line up with the Word, is that called deception or false prophesy?
If one exhorts, encourages, or predicts to the Body of Christ something at all, are they exhorters, encouragers, or preditors, or phophesying in the role of a prophet at that time and place?
If you exhort, encourage, or predict (which is prophesy) and you miss it, what do you call that person??? A false what? A false date setter? A false calculator?
Camping deceived the world by trying to operate within the gift of prophecy (through calculations) and trying to operate within the office of a prophet, at the time, whether he believes in prophecy (false) or not.
I still don't get it and agree to disagree. 
[Updated on: Sat, 28 May 2011 17:56]
Shalom,
GWB
"Be still and know that I am God."
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| Re: Bro Harold [message #7881 is a reply to message #7880] |
Sat, 28 May 2011 17:52 |
Mark L
Messages: 855
Registered: October 2006
Location: Canada |
Senior Member |
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I think to some extent we are all splitting theological hairs here. We're all in agreement he is off theologically and a nutbar to boot. False prophet, deceiver? I wouldn't disagree really strongly with that assessment. I certainly do think someone should duct tape his mouth. The reason I went a little easy on him is because from what I heard on the radio it sounded like there was a genuine salvation there.
You can read
"Meanderings on Scripture by Mark
https://mlederman.substack.com/
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