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| Roosters, Hens and the Coop [message #9468] |
Wed, 17 April 2013 21:04  |
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 GWB
Messages: 708
Registered: March 2008
Location: Louisville, Ky area |
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Do any of you brothers have testimonies as to how Jesus worked in your life and changed you in any way since FA about loving your wife?
Is anyone willing to share mistakes made? Maybe share how Jesus made your marriage better by loving her in different areas since the staunch FA days?
Not saying all guys were not good husbands back then, but some might have some wisdom on making marriages better.
I know many might be blessed in learning what makes marriage better from a guy's point of view and how you all have learned to love your wives.
I hope this might be helpful for many people who might be struggling in marriage.
I have grown to love and respect you all as men. What are your secrets? 
[Updated on: Wed, 17 April 2013 21:06]
Shalom,
GWB
"Be still and know that I am God."
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| Re: Roosters, Hens and the Coop [message #9471 is a reply to message #9470] |
Thu, 18 April 2013 04:24  |
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william
Messages: 1462
Registered: January 2006 |
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Administrator |
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Well, I'll have to hold back a few secrets. Men don't usually 'kiss and tell'!
But there are probably a few things that could be mentioned especially as they related to our FA experience.
We were married after we were introduced to Faith Ministries so both of us were on the same page as far as the roles of husbands and wives were concerned. As was generally the case (not always) back then, the men gravitated toward the wives-submit-yourselves-to-your-husbands teaching and the women (I'm guessing) took their role as wives just as seriously.
The problem wasn't necessarily with the biblical idea of submission, this is a concept that most of us adopted without too much of a struggle in other areas, like submission to the governmental authorities (Rm 12) for instance, or submission to our bosses at work, etc..
The problem (as I see it) was more on the emphasis we men placed upon the concept (our 'role' was to see that this was enforced!). We tended to look upon it as more of a master-slave relationship instead of a true partnership where equals hashed out problems and then, because of the role given to us, the man made the final decision.
A proper analogy can be seen in Acts 15 where the whole Church came together to deal with the problem of the gentiles. In that passage you've got a lot of strong personalities (Peter and Paul, especially, but it seems as if the whole Church was involved) coming together to consider the matter. Then, after all was said and done, after all of the arguments had been set forth, James, (who was not one of the original twelve, btw,) gives the final judgment --WITH THE BLESSING OF ALL INVOLVED.
He does this, not because he had the better argument (we don't know what he thought during the deliberations) , but because of his role as the chief elder of the Church. He patiently listened to all of the arguments and when he speaks there seems to be a consensus that -- hey, this is wisdom from God! There doesn't appear, to me anyway, to be any kind of authoritarianism on display. I think this is a pretty good model for all of us to follow when dealing with issues. Someone, in the final analysis, will need to make a final decision and the person who makes the final decision will be the one that will ultimately be held accountable for that decision. Husbands are in that role when it comes to family decisions.
As far as I remember, the teaching on submission at FA pretty much mirrored that definition... BUT... and this was the case in a lot of areas... the problem was the PRACTICAL APPLICATION of the teaching, the implementation, if you will, this was a gigantic fail. If I had a nickel for every time we screwed up the practical application part I have enough to pay my taxes this year! <grin>
When I say that the teaching was fine, I'm not giving a pass to those who taught on submission, I'm only saying that as far as the biblical concept of submission was concerned, it was taught. However, those who taught on submission also had to practically apply that teaching and they were not any more immune to screw-ups than the rest of us.
Couple the above with a general attitude of superiority and you've got a recipe for disaster.
Consider where the practical application of the teaching took us:
Men didn't do housework, men didn't help with babies (and there were a lot of them!), men spent their non-working hours studying, men commandeered the checkbook... I could go on and on here but to summarize -- stuff that had no scriptural basis became our ten commandments.
The stuff that did have a scriptural basis, like the principle of authority for instance, became twisted into a concept that the world knows as authoritarianism. Unquestioning obedience was expected from the wives. Men were empowered and you know what they say... power corrupts...
Most of this was inevitable. When we take a doctrine and obsess over it we often fail to see other things that might mitigate the situation. I'm not saying that all of us did that but there was a sufficient number who did so as to make it normal for FA.
I know you asked for personal experiences so here is the way it happened in our lives:
Both of us wanted nothing less than divine order for our home so we embraced much of the above... I'd like to think that I was less authoritarian than some but we pretty much fell into all of the above to one degree or another. We just accepted this as the way it ought to be without question (or if we had questions we kept them to ourselves).
My problem happened to be that I married up...<grin> I really respected my wife and knew that I was one lucky son-of-gun to be in the same house with her... (okay, I don't believe in luck so it must have been the sovereignty of God!) Anyway, I was fortunate enough to be able to see some of the more awful aspects of what authoritarianism had done to some couples and it had left a bad taste in my mouth. On top of that, I worshiped my wife (not the best word here cause I don't mean it in the same sense as one would 'worship' God, but hopefully you get the meaning)... I really loved her, respected her. She was/is a godly woman.
So, it wasn't long before I began to question some of the 10-commandments that we had erected. It didn't take a huge hammer (just a small sledge) until I saw that both men and women are equal before God and any perceived differences only apply to our respective roles in the family. By 'roles' I don't mean things like diaper changing, dish washing, check-book-balancing, etc.. These things are based in the tradition of our culture, not bible doctrine... what I mean is that the principle of authority, set forth in the bible, is necessary for an orderly society but it has little to do with the actual tasks of a family or society. The way people carry out the duties in a family varies from culture to culture... the principle of biblical authority is static.
I think I mentioned somewhere that when I LET <grin> my wife take over the checkbook we began to prosper! Now this is purely anecdotal because in some cases the husband may be better at this task, but the point is that she does it better than I ever did and boy am I ever glad that I broke that commandment.
There is a lot more that can be said but it is late and you're probably tired of reading by now so I'll leave you with this... the secret to a happy marriage:
I call it the reverse-selfish principle or the be-selfish-for-your-wife principle (I'm still looking for a better name so if you've got one let me know!).
It goes like this: We all know what it means to be selfish and we know that as disciples of Jesus we should not be selfish, right? Well, why not put our intimate knowledge of selfishness (we're all pros right?) to good use... instead of exercising selfishness for ourselves (redundant, I know!) reverse it and be selfish for your wife. What does she want? Give it to her! Whatever she desires... give it to her.
God does that for us -- Mark 11:24.
Blessings,
William
[Updated on: Thu, 18 April 2013 04:37]
I want to believe!
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| Re: Roosters, Hens and the Coop [message #9474 is a reply to message #9472] |
Thu, 18 April 2013 14:11 |
Child of God
Messages: 1
Registered: April 2013 |
Junior Member |
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Hi William (and All),
I was so blessed to read this post (Thank you GWB for redirecting me back). It's amazing to me how when I read these posts, I feel like I'm reading my own story, to an extent. I read every word, it's very helpful to understand where you were coming from.
I have a question: What are your thoughts or suggestions to a wife dealing with a husband who takes the biblical truth about submission but only focusing on the wife being submissive and not about husbands love their wives as Christ loves the Church although he says otherwise)? The scripture that says we are to submit to one another is brushed over and the emphasis is always on the wife submitting to the husband, in all things. How should a wife react to this when their continuing to love and show their husband love is making it worse...
How do you continue to actively love someone when it's only received under conditions of being obedient to his concept of love (if you do this, then I will love you)? Although he does even see this. How do you actively love someone when they ask you to leave (for the 3rd time) because they cannot live with you being "disobedient" and "defiant" in following the rules, not the bible, but the rules.
I whole heartily believe in the biblical truth about submission and in the end, it's up to the husband to make the decision. I want to voice my opinion on the matter but when I do, it's viewed as my being "argumentative". The agape love that Jesus talks about is somewhere at the bottom of the list. When there is no love in the decision making, it makes for a sad, lifeless world, with no power of God in our lives at all.
Amplified of I Cor 13:1-8a,13
If I can speak in the tongues of men and even of angels, but have not love (that reasoning, intentional, spiritual devotion such [a]as is inspired by God’s love for and in us), I am only a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 And if I have prophetic powers (the gift of interpreting the divine will and purpose), and understand all the secret truths and mysteries and possess all knowledge, and if I have [sufficient] faith so that I can remove mountains, but have not love (God’s love in me) I am nothing (a useless nobody). 3 Even if I dole out all that I have [to the poor in providing] food, and if I surrender my body to be burned or [c]in order that I may glory, but have not love (God’s love in me), I gain nothing. 4 Love endures long and is patient and kind; love never is envious nor boils over with jealousy, is not boastful or vainglorious, does not display itself haughtily. 5 It is not conceited (arrogant and inflated with pride); it is not rude (unmannerly) and does not act unbecomingly. Love (God’s love in us) does not insist on its own rights or its own way, for it is not self-seeking; it is not touchy or fretful or resentful; it takes no account of the evil done to it [it pays no attention to a suffered wrong]. 6 It does not rejoice at injustice and unrighteousness, but rejoices when right and truth prevail. 7 Love bears up under anything and everything that comes, is ever ready to believe the best of every person, its hopes are fadeless under all circumstances, and it endures everything [without weakening]. 8 Love never fails [never fades out or becomes obsolete or comes to an end]..............13 And so faith, hope, love abide [faith—conviction and belief respecting man’s relation to God and divine things; hope—joyful and confident expectation of eternal salvation; love—true affection for God and man, growing out of God’s love for and in us], these three; but the greatest of these is love.
[Updated on: Thu, 18 April 2013 14:14]
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| Re: Roosters, Hens and the Coop [message #9475 is a reply to message #9474] |
Thu, 18 April 2013 16:23 |
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william
Messages: 1462
Registered: January 2006 |
Senior Member
Administrator |
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| Quote: |
I have a question: What are your thoughts or suggestions to a wife dealing with a husband who takes the biblical truth about submission but only focusing on the wife being submissive and not about husbands love their wives as Christ loves the Church although he says otherwise)? The scripture that says we are to submit to one another is brushed over and the emphasis is always on the wife submitting to the husband, in all things. How should a wife react to this when their continuing to love and show their husband love is making it worse...
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As I see it this is a broad problem that translates to this: How do we get others to follow the Lord?
I don't know that there is any way to do this. The best we can do is make sure we follow the Lord. That of course applies in the reverse as well... there really is no way for your husband to make you do something either... he too must focus on his walk with the Lord and if things aren't going the way he thinks they should then he should consider that this situation is a custom-made trial for him. It never works when we try to get others to conform... even if we somehow are able to force compliance, what have we really accomplished? Nothing. No heart has been changed. The only thing we prove is that we are powerful enough to force the other person to outwardly comply with our will. This is authoritarianism plain and simple, and it has no place as a weapon in the Christian's arsenal.
This post addresses some of these issues and you might find it helpful:
http://overcomersonline.com/FUDforum2/index.php?t=msg&go to=9125&S=41a220e36b15751c6dd8a8e8023834d5#msg_9125
Got to get back to work... more later!
Blessings,
William
[Updated on: Thu, 18 April 2013 16:23]
I want to believe!
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| Re: Roosters, Hens and the Coop [message #9476 is a reply to message #9475] |
Thu, 18 April 2013 23:25 |
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GWB
Messages: 708
Registered: March 2008
Location: Louisville, Ky area |
Senior Member |
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"....there really is no way for your husband to make you do something either...."
Gotta highly disagree. OK....I am going there for myself and many other women who have known abuse.
Hmmm....you can be slammed against door jams, pregnant, while holding your baby. You can not be given enough money for food while he expects you "to make it stretch by faith"at the store. You can endure verbal and emotional abuse. You can also have forced sex. Some call it rape, if you have the guts to say it.
All of this happened to many women at FA. It is time for people to know that there are women out there with deep scars due to abusive men at FA.
It was a man's world at FA. If you disagreed, refused, or had an opinion as a woman, you were not submissive and Hell bound.
It was not the norm to have a respectful and "equal" marriage.
I have worked through it. Many women have not. I know these women. They are hurting as we speak.
[Updated on: Thu, 18 April 2013 23:53]
Shalom,
GWB
"Be still and know that I am God."
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| Re: Roosters, Hens and the Coop [message #9477 is a reply to message #9476] |
Fri, 19 April 2013 02:19 |
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GWB
Messages: 708
Registered: March 2008
Location: Louisville, Ky area |
Senior Member |
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Just like Gary stated, we don't have to run to others outside of the FA experience or read books for help. That is wrong, I guess.
How do you actively love an abusive man, especially when he could beat your brains out? Do you leave? Do you divorce after 10 years of abuse and bruises? How about the children who are watching the abuse? What do you tell them? Do you continue to elevate a man as the head of the household with these actions?
Do you leave, take control, tell the abusive man to jump off of the cliff, raise your children in a peaceful environment without him? What do you do when many women are called controlling because of these circumstances?
So, since we have all of the answers, I am waiting.
I have been in contact with women who have been abused in relation to FA. They watch and read OO faithfully. They are waiting for answers on my personal email.
People are hurting, Overcomers!
Please advise.
[Updated on: Fri, 19 April 2013 02:34]
Shalom,
GWB
"Be still and know that I am God."
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| Re: Roosters, Hens and the Coop [message #9478 is a reply to message #9477] |
Fri, 19 April 2013 08:34 |
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Gary
Messages: 1025
Registered: August 2008
Location: Indiana |
Senior Member |
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GWB Wrote: Just like Gary stated, we don't have to run to others outside of the FA experience or read books for help. That is wrong, I guess.
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This is not exactly what I was thinking. In this situation I felt like someone shows up with a question and then we send them down the road for someone else to deal with. It was just this one situation at that moment in time.
It's not wrong to get help if help is needed. As a Christian we have to realize that God is there to help us, men can give advice, point us in a certain direction, but then were left along with this advice and still have to make decisions what are we going to do with it.
(I hope that made sense.)
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How do you actively love an abusive man, especially when he could beat your brains out? Do you leave? Do you divorce after 10 years of abuse and bruises? How about the children who are watching the abuse? What do you tell them? Do you continue to elevate a man as the head of the household with these actions?
Do you leave, take control, tell the abusive man to jump off of the cliff, raise your children in a peaceful environment without him? What do you do when many women are called controlling because of these circumstances?
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This is much evil in this old world and for me this is a bit of a shocking revelation when you see what others are going through.
My father-in-law was considered an abusive husband, we clashed a number of times over doctrine. He was very controlling and always treated his wife like some little kid. Get me this, get me that, why did you do that, why did you do this. I did not like being around him and felt sorry for his wife. I tried to help her once, rented a house for her, she left him and was doing great. Weeks later she had him back in the house going through the same scenario. That's another long story.
He tried to force his will on others as well. I always felt like I had to walk on egg shells when I was in his house because if you said the wrong thing he would very well go off and straighten you out. BTW he believed like us to a degree but detested FA and what we stood for. Figure that one out, I couldn't.
For me it was a learning experience because I did not want to be like this man. But at the same time I can identify a little with having to be around someone who is abusive. I think some people in life have insecurities, no self worth, and in order to feel important they have to belittle others to seem superior. It's part of the fallen man symdrome.
My case was different though because what did I do, nothing, just prayed for him and tried to avoid him. What I mean here is if I tried to do good it was taken wrong and then if I did nothing at all it would be interpreted as wrong also.
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So, since we have all of the answers, I am waiting.
I have been in contact with women who have been abused in relation to FA. They watch and read OO faithfully. They are waiting for answers on my personal email.
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I don't think we have "all" the answers in life, and there is no pat answer for everyone's situation, were all different and each problem in life is complicated to some degree.
To be honest the Lord is our only hope. God understands us and sees each of the problems were facing. The best I can tell anyone is to run to Jesus and learn to let Him deal with it.
Is God able to deliver I believe He can. He wants us to come to Him and learn to trust Him to help us. God is for us and not against us. Jesus Christ is alive and real. We have to make an effort to go to Him, talk to Him like we talk to each other, and learn to listen when He speaks.
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People are hurting, Overcomers!
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Overcomers is just a fancy title I don't think of myself as some world class overcomer. I consider myself a nobody in this world and I am perfectly happy that I don't have a fancy schmancy title.
Gwb its sad so many are hurting, but God is real as I stated, Hes bigger then anything we can imagine. If people are waiting for answers they are going to have to learn the Lord is there. The only advice I can say works for me is, Go to the Lord, He is a very present help in the time of trouble.
Encourage them to seek God with their whole heart. I hope this helps a little.
Gary
[Updated on: Fri, 19 April 2013 18:03]
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| Re: Roosters, Hens and the Coop [message #9480 is a reply to message #9479] |
Fri, 19 April 2013 13:40 |
james
Messages: 2138
Registered: April 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL |
Senior Member |
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Gillyann, I'm sorry you and others including Child of God have gone through and are still going through these abusive relationships.(though you say you've worked through yours, your words shows that the healing may not be complete...and that's in no way comdemning, just an observation.)
We know,(we, including those of you Gillyann refers to as faithful readers of OO) that there are only a few of us who are 'regular' MEN posters here...William, Ron, Gary, Mark, Jman, Tom, and myself. William and Gary have shared both their experiences as well as Biblical reasons concerning this wrong that has occured and continues for some. You ask for answers from "Overcomers" and specificly us men. Mark, Tom, and Jman are married and could respond if they are reading along or are lead to do so...But to be candid, since I do post quite often and 'seem' to have views/opinions on most subjects, it would be obivious that I should offer what I can.
First in case anyone has forgotten or hasn't read all of my past testimonies, I am not married; I haven't been in 35 years. When I was married I wasn't saved, nor my wife. I have zero experience personally as to this problem. All I have done or know to do (at this time) is pray for you sisters and offer the hope that I cling to, JESUS. Peoples advice and experiences are helpful and encouraging, no doubt; but God's WORD is what will stand forever...I with all sincerity, point you to HIM. Stand on that Word, those promises, the revelation of Jesus Christ. He loves YOU! He died for YOU! He is coming again, for YOU! HE gives wisdom, He heals broken hearts, He delivers.
I ofer my prayers and intercesion, I ofer encouragement from God's Word, I share, as best I can, the burden you're going through(of course I don't truely identify with it because I haven't gone through it) but I care and and am deeply burdened that this is still an ongoing issue within The Body of Christ. Please don't let bitterness and unforgiveness spring up in your hearts(yeah, I know, from their <the abuser> side they deserve it, but the forgiveness frees YOU and keep you in right relationship with God...and I DO know something about that subject.
None of us deserve ANYTHING from God, BUT! as I read this morning in Romans"...God commended His love to us that while we were yet sinners Jesus died for US." And a couple chapters over, "the wages of is is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our LORD."
You are not forsaken, He cares for YOU...Take courage in Him and His Word. Seek His face, cry unto Him.
In the Love of Christ,
james
[Updated on: Sun, 21 April 2013 18:34]
“But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,”
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| Re: Roosters, Hens and the Coop [message #9481 is a reply to message #9480] |
Fri, 19 April 2013 14:46 |
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GWB
Messages: 708
Registered: March 2008
Location: Louisville, Ky area |
Senior Member |
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Thank you, James. Those are very kind and heartfelt words.
I have struggled with this for years. It all came out due to Child of God. The shame that goes along with all of this can be awful. How long have I been on here and said nothing at all?
I just thought it was time to share. There is so much more, but what I have shared is enough to know that it was tragic.
Homes have been divided for years. Women feel condemned due to the teaching on divorce. I truely believe if HEF knew all of this, he would have torn into the guilty men. I really believe that.
I am still so thankful for FA. No church is perfect or the people in it. I hope many women can look past any bad experience and evaluate what was taught and that it was as precious as gold. We did not have time to apply all of the teaching practically.
Now, I am believing that my ex wants to know his own three beautiful grandchildren. He is a stranger to them. My present husband is their real grandfather. It is my ex's loss. He isolates himself. I think he studies some. I know he spends a lot of time on the internet trying to find the perfect woman.
Good grief. She was there all along! Hahahaha!!! We have to lighten up here.
I am so grateful for you brothers. My hope is that women who have been hurt read this and realize that men are all different.
Thank God that I had a Godly father who loved me unconditionally or it would have been real bad.
Child of God, please stay in touch with OO or me. See how awesome the Body of Christ is?! Even if they are men! lol
[Updated on: Fri, 19 April 2013 14:56]
Shalom,
GWB
"Be still and know that I am God."
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| Re: Roosters, Hens and the Coop [message #9482 is a reply to message #9474] |
Fri, 19 April 2013 19:00 |
sparkles
Messages: 246
Registered: March 2008 |
Senior Member |
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I have a question: What are your thoughts or suggestions to a wife dealing with a husband who takes the biblical truth about submission but only focusing on the wife being submissive and not about husbands love their wives as Christ loves the Church although he says otherwise)? The scripture that says we are to submit to one another is brushed over and the emphasis is always on the wife submitting to the husband, in all things. How should a wife react to this when their continuing to love and show their husband love is making it worse...
I would like to share what a friend of mine told me years ago: “You take care of yourself, and let
God change the other person. Jesus is changing you into what He wants you to be, and as that happens
He will help you to overcome and die out to what the others are doing and saying.”
I know it is an extremely hard situation you are in, but you need to trust God’s promise that He will
never give you more than you can handle. I remember Dave Wilkerson saying that” Some of you are
going through the worst and hardest times in your life, and you think you won’t make it, but God is
preparing you for what is ahead, so you will be able to stand in the days ahead.” I hold onto that
promise myself in things I am going through. You can’t do it in your strength, but to call upon the
Lord in the day of trouble. The Lord says a few things He will be in this time: a refuge, a present
help, a place of hiding, a savior, His truth shall be your shield and buckler, our dwelling place, a shelter,
a strong tower, a deliverer, merciful, and many other things.
Psalm 37 tells us to: Fret not, Trust in the Lord, Delight thyself, Commit thy way unto the Lord, Rest in the Lord, cease from anger, forsake wrath and wait upon the Lord.
You need to get into God’s word and hold onto His promises to keep you and help you. God can change
your husbands heart in a second and grant him repentance and a changed heart, but as far as you are concerned, God will keep you. Some things we may not understand at the present, and maybe never
in this life, but God knows what He is doing. Psalm 56:11 “In God have I put my trust: I will not be afraid what man can do unto me.”
I don’t know what you believe on claiming the promises of God, but you need to get into Gods word and know that He has everything under control. Trust His promises for you and your family.
Don’t think of how your husband should act, or what he should be doing, God is doing a deep work in
you. God sees how you are being treated and will deal with your husband in His time and way, but you cannot change his heart, but God can.
I whole heartily believe in the biblical truth about submission and in the end, it's up to the husband to make the decision. I want to voice my opinion on the matter but when I do, it's viewed as my being "argumentative". The agape love that Jesus talks about is somewhere at the bottom of the list. When there is no love in the decision making, it makes for a sad, lifeless world, with no power of God in our lives at all.
I don’t know if you pray in tongues or not, but no matter, make sure you spend time in prayer for yourself, and claim the promises of God for yourself, and then for your family. You need to take care of yourself spiritually, so you can walk in the spirit and minister to your family. Will it be easy? Probably not, but it will be rewarding. Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not to your own understanding, in all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. The Psalms are very encouraging. Psalm 27 might be a blessing to read today.
And on a side note: there were a lot of very Godly couples at Faith Assembly, where the husband did love his wife as Christ loves the Church. Just because someone attended FA did not mean they were walking in the truth of Gods word, or even all were Christians. I am sure some were planted there to bring reproach on the name of Christ and what God was doing through the messages there. For me, the message brought life and freedom, and I will be eternally grateful for Brother Freeman and Faith Assembly.
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